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#118756 - 03/20/03 05:37 PM Force
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
In respect of Chen..

Can some one explain to me how the use of the sine wave motion in TKD evolves greater force than that of the cetrifugal force employed by Karate-Ka?

Budo.

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#118757 - 03/20/03 07:58 PM Re: Force
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Judderman, If you could explain the "sine wave" motion to me then Im sure i could give you some sort of answer. If you are talking about centifugal force in striking then I would say that since a straight line is faster it has the potential to have more power. But I have to wait for your response to give an accurate answer.

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#118758 - 03/20/03 11:25 PM Re: Force
Scholar Offline
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Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 472
Loc: Brockton
Because you use them both together?

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#118759 - 03/21/03 06:20 AM Re: Force
taebot Offline
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Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
Oh no, not that new age stuff.

I love fighting those guys, timing the bounce, hitting them on the co-sine wave, tangentially, and up side the head right up the z-axis!

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

And my wife thinks my math degree was totally wasted!

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#118760 - 03/21/03 04:25 PM Re: Force
Scholar Offline
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Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 472
Loc: Brockton
WhaT I'm saying is that the sine wave pulse from the mingmen is from having the back curved to straighting of Kung Fu in sequence after/during the waist turning so the power adds on kind of like any technique that uses more than one joint ect like shoulder, elbow, wrist doing a punch. Maybe add to that something like that kinda stamping weight shift to front foot where you really feel the power going into the ground and back up your body. Maybe add to that other stuff too. Can't a guy learn from others instead of learning the hard way. Also, when I check stuff out, I actually try it or hit something because the feel is what we can understand better than just words. I want to share... like the feeling when I've gone to schools , of the friendships and liking the examples my teachers set for me. My goal is to combine, the best I can, all the energies

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#118761 - 03/22/03 06:16 AM Re: Force
taebot Offline
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Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
I am having a little trouble comprehending what you said. But as taught to me it involves bringing yur center of gravity above your lateral center (hara) so that your weight can be added to a strike.*

But as some of us have pointed out many times, in calculating pounds per square inch, mass takes a very big back seat to speed.

It's a marginal enhancement to power at best and at worst, well, you don't have a low center of gravity. I'll let the Akido and Judo players take over at this point because they can best explain what they do when someone puts their weight that high up...

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]


* as an afterthought let me add that one of the mantras is we kick because it's so much more powerful and the Koreans won't allow punching to count in competition, so it becomes somewhat of an ancillary theory...

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#118762 - 03/22/03 07:01 AM Re: Force
Scholar Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 472
Loc: Brockton
Using Tae Kwan Do from what I studied and practiced the most in college, the kicks paid off in real life. I know that the hand techniques were not my strong point. I've been looking into "shocking" power more than "penetrating"

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#118763 - 03/22/03 10:35 AM Re: Force
raccoon Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
glad to see some mathematical applications in budo [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

-raccoon

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#118764 - 03/22/03 11:53 AM Re: Force
taebot Offline
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Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
Where you lost me was the, "the mingmen is from having the back curved to straighting of Kung Fu," since I have no frame of reference. Can you expand and clarify, please?

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#118765 - 03/22/03 03:29 PM Re: Force
Scholar Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 472
Loc: Brockton
The back curved to straightening is seen " The Fundamentals of Pa Kua Chang Vol. 1 / The Method of Lu Shui-T'ien as Taught by Park Bok Nam Pages 159 and 160. Referance that the back is coiled like a cat ready to pounce#3 and also #4 about the ripple or wave.Please also referance Hsing-I Chinese Mind-Body Boxing by Robert W Smith Page 25 #3 the Primary Requirements including; A3 "Bear shoulders" and B8 the three straightenings.

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#118766 - 03/22/03 10:03 PM Re: Force
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
In some of the kicks of TKD you tend to curve your back, this is for balance, in Karate your back is straight because to get good torque on the curved attack you must be able to twist the hips quickly. If your back is straight then you can twist much better.

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#118767 - 03/22/03 10:05 PM Re: Force
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
The reason you get more force is the momentum from bending your spine in while the attack comes up. When holding your back straight such as in karate, you become tense and rigid and this slows you down reducing speed and power.

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#118768 - 03/23/03 04:40 AM Re: Force
taebot Offline
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Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
First Chen, the spine IS bent [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] !

Secondly, in the Karate have have taken, upright does not equal tense.

On the other hand, Joe Hall, student of Ark Won Yuey talks about the three bends. I just never saw the back as being on of them.

I read what you are saying, but still don't get the concept. You guys need to paint a better mental picture of the physical technique for me because I'm not seeing it from what you've written so far. Think of it as a writing experiment. Can you compare it to something else? Come on guys, it's your turn to turn on my lightbulb, dim as that may be...

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#118769 - 03/23/03 07:27 AM Re: Force
Scholar Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 472
Loc: Brockton
When a cat hunches his back then uses it to pounce like a coiled spring. In Jee Kune Do, the ready stance per Bruce Lee "like a cat ready to pounce"

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#118770 - 03/23/03 09:48 AM Re: Force
Jamoni Offline
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Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
This thread is going all "Twilight Zone".

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#118771 - 03/23/03 11:31 AM Re: Force
Scholar Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 472
Loc: Brockton
Hoe about more focused on Karate as down to earth, when we turn the hips to power the punch, consider the way to do that and then whip it back in the opposite direction for a different type of force...have you tried that?

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#118772 - 03/23/03 08:38 PM Re: Force
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I know Tae!! What I was referring to is the way your back bends forward like in the ax kick. Or in the Muay Thai springing front kick. Or when you knee someone. See? I have studied a little Wing Chun and there backs are straight and it seems to be tense to me.

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#118773 - 03/23/03 08:39 PM Re: Force
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Also Judderman, Why the respect? It has raised my curiosity as to why you would open a post reffering to me? Just wondering and also a great question by the way! Chen Zen

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#118774 - 03/24/03 04:49 AM Re: Force
taebot Offline
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Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
Okay scholar, the cat example works for me. That was good. I'm getting an idea. The cat kinda contracts himself which is what I do in sparring. Try to be smaller, and smaller, and smaller, then WHAM, bigger!

Chen, if I bend by spine on the axe kick my head will go down and I'll give myself yet another black eye [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] ...

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#118775 - 03/25/03 08:35 PM Re: Force
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I dont have that problem since my legs are longer than my trunk [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] Also the reason to bend like this is to lower your center of gravity and to be able to spring out with your attack as to conceal just how far a reach you do have before it explodes out.

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#118776 - 03/26/03 04:55 AM Re: Force
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
From now on I dubb thee "Legs" Chen! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

I'm always pretty much low and compact already when fighting. As mentioned before, I try to get real small (like that's gonna happen at 6' 220 lbs...).

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#118777 - 03/30/03 06:41 PM Re: Force
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
Why the respect Chen?? More really a comment you made in the General forum. So I decided to post here....

It has taken an interesting angle though.

My initial comparison was the use of forward and dropping motion (in laymans terms ~ I wasn't any good at maths) to effect greater power on impact, as used in TKD, and that of the forward and twisting action associated with Karate.

It would seem that Scholar has added a new dimention. Spring. Is this the same as "Kime"? From relaxed to tense and back again?

Budo.

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#118778 - 03/31/03 12:40 PM Re: Force
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I am not sure what "Kime" is but springing techniques such as springing front kick of Muay Thai is quite effective in generating power.

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#118779 - 03/31/03 11:25 PM Re: Force
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
Chen It means,Explosive power,As if,Focusing to attain power,Or something like that.:?

[This message has been edited by isshinryu kid (edited 04-01-2003).]

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#118780 - 04/01/03 05:42 AM Re: Force
Scholar Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 472
Loc: Brockton
There are also referances to using the principles in Kicking where you push standing leg into ground then utilize the "spring back" with jerking the waist. Is this what you refer to in the "Springing front kick technique"? Using these principles are a bit beyond me as I would rely on TKD for kicking , I'd like more input as to how to use for kicking and it's relative pros and cons. Also as far as "Kime" it appears that depth is the additional factor as to whether the energy is a shock inside the body as opposed to a penetration and that the end of strike may"oppositely" be a relax to send out the energy by lessening the muscular resistance to the energy flowing , as referenced to the loosing of a taunt bow when you release to let the arrow fly.

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#118781 - 04/01/03 10:38 AM Re: Force
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Ok Scholar, Yes it was what i was referring to.There are various gains and losses from these types of attacks. I'll use the springing front kick as example again. Flaws first, Its a very committed attack. Once you let loose with this there is no turning back. If you miss then you are wide open to attack since you are extended out so far. You have no balance in this type of kick since your energy is moving forward you have no anchor. Not to mention it is a difficult kick to learn in comparison of traditional kicking styles. Now the gains. The spring and forward momentum of this kick leads to devastating results on impact, driving thru your opponent as if you are trying to break a board. As I mentioned earlier if you miss you are wide open but there is one way to quickly fix this if you miss, land your foot on the ball and instantly spring back up in a knee attack. It is quicker than moving your feet back together and since you are attacking you dont have to worry so much about someone rushing you. You have less balance in this kick but you are trading that balance for speed and power. Although it is a difficult kick to learn it is a valuable weapon to a TKD artist as well as most of the Muay Thai I have came across. As far as Kime goes from what I am getting from the descriptions given it seems to be related to springing but not quite it. To me it seems that kime is more used for affecting the momentum and balance of your opponent and this is not often achieved by striking methods. This would be an effective way to teach grappling and trapping/throwing I think.

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#118782 - 04/01/03 04:26 PM Re: Force
Scholar Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 472
Loc: Brockton
Thank you for sharing Re: Springing front kick (Chen Zen) As far as "Kime" I thought it means point of focus, I may be confused with the term. As far as Kime, as you mentioned, appears to be the specialty of Tai Chi, as it relates to the application of the postures.

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#118783 - 04/01/03 05:55 PM Re: Force
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I would be interested in finding out more on "kime" just to have a clear understanding of it so I may correctly see how it is applid in the great scheme of things.

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#118784 - 04/01/03 06:27 PM Re: Force
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
You're right scholar. Kime/FOcus & power.PS Sorry for the mistake, I've had alot on my mind lately. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG]

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