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#118720 - 02/23/03 05:06 PM on the roundhouse.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I was sparring the other day and a friend of mine who is somewhat interested in MA's asked me later why I had hit with two different parts of my foot. One was with the ball and one was with my instep. Well after I explained it to him I was wondering what does the majority of practitioners use? The instep or the ball?

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#118721 - 02/24/03 03:50 AM Re: on the roundhouse.
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
In street shoes, instep ('cept my steel-toed boots in which I break all the rules!).
Kicking to the head, usually instep.
Snickerdoodles, ball naturally, [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] !

[Actually anything below the sternum]

[Dig this IK, for punches above the sternum, I use verticle fist!]

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#118722 - 02/24/03 03:52 AM Re: on the roundhouse.
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
Oh yeah, kata - ball...

Like that counts [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] !

[I still say flood control may be a bit much, especially when I've got a good schtick going. It interrupts the flow of the combination and in comedy, as it is in martial matters, timing is everything!]

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#118723 - 02/24/03 10:42 AM Re: on the roundhouse.
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]I Use the heel,& The ball of the ft,But not the instep as it's very weak,& should never be used in any altercation. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#118724 - 02/24/03 12:24 PM Re: on the roundhouse.
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Isshin-never say never, it always bites you in the butt, but, I agree none the less.

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#118725 - 02/24/03 04:23 PM Re: on the roundhouse.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I have a ahrd time hitting with the ball as it shortens my attack range. But I have also hurt my instep before...Interesting.Other thoughts?

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#118726 - 02/24/03 06:15 PM Re: on the roundhouse.
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Instep, almost exlusively. I only use the roundhouse for knees/sweeps, or rib shots if I get him bent over a little.

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#118727 - 02/24/03 06:17 PM Re: on the roundhouse.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I rarely sweep or attack the knees unless its to stuff an attack or to keep the opponent from crowding

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#118728 - 03/02/03 08:35 AM Re: on the roundhouse.
gojuTKDdude Offline
Member

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 134
Both the instep and the ball of the foot are useful, they have different applications.

The instep is really goo for a snapping rounhouse and to attack broader targets, on the other hand the ball of the foot is better for more powerful kicks. there is less surface area which makes it much better to pick off specific targets like a rib or something.

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#118729 - 03/02/03 02:58 PM Re: on the roundhouse.
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
I also feel that forming the blade with the ball of the foot takes a split second longer, and I tend to land flat footed after the kick. Using the instep feels quicker, and the landing is springier. This helps me launch a follow up kick or knee much faster. True, the ball of the foot focuses power better for breaking ribs, etc., but I have side and front kicks for that.

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#118730 - 03/04/03 05:18 PM Re: on the roundhouse.
gojuTKDdude Offline
Member

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 134
Jamoni,

The side kick is good for linear attacks not for circular ones. If an opponent was facing you in a fighting stance it would not be possible to attack the ribs. The ball of the foot roundhouse when someone exposes their flank while throwing a punch. I dont see how a side could get in their with a side kick.

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#118731 - 03/04/03 07:03 PM Re: on the roundhouse.
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
What I meant by the comment about breaking ribs is that I don't use roundhouses as power kicks, I use them like a jab, to set up other attacks, to distract, or to lower his mobility with leg strikes. I feel the instep blade fits this strategy better than the ball of foot. I feel arcing kicks are too easy to defend against if thrown high. A stop hit or block anywhere on the leg can stop the kick. I feel like I can stick a high front kick through his defense easier than a high round kick, and do more damage. Anyway, I don't throw high kicks much. And for a round kick to the thigh, knee, calf, or ankle, the instep makes sense.

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#118732 - 03/06/03 01:02 PM Re: on the roundhouse.
gojuTKDdude Offline
Member

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 134
Why limit yourself to just using a kick one way. One can generate alot of power with a roundhouse kick, Id say its my most powerful non spinning kick.

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#118733 - 03/06/03 03:58 PM Re: on the roundhouse.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Are you serious? You're most powerful kick that is not spinning is roundhouse? What about side kick, front kick, back kick, crescent kick? My roundhouse is definately my weakest and used only to confuse or to setup for other attacks as is the case with most artist I know. If what you say is true then what is your secret to makeing the roundhouse a more powerful kick.

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#118734 - 03/07/03 06:05 AM Re: on the roundhouse.
UKfightfreak Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco
I've seen to many bouts end with a knockout from a roundhouse to discredit it to the realms of little power.

Chen Zen - you might want to examine your hip rotation regarding power.

I do think it is difficult to get any power from a front leg roundhouse but a rear leg should and is a good power tool.

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#118735 - 03/07/03 11:43 AM Re: on the roundhouse.
gojuTKDdude Offline
Member

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 134
Id say that the roundhouse is even more powerful than the side kick and definiely more than the front kick. In order to generate power with those kicks, a thrust is required. This leaves the leg vulnerable to being caught. Not so with a roundhouse, the cirdular trajectory makes it hard to block and even harder to catch. Power is als generated in hip action and turning on the ball of the foot as opposed to a thrust.

It is extremely hard to throw a side kick without telegraphing it, I always enjoy when Im sparring against someone and he goes from a normal fighting stance to a completely linear stance. Hmmm I wonder what hes going to do next? Side kicks are extremely easy to block.

Im not saying that I dont use side or front, Im just saying the round is alot more versatile and dynamic. But there is a time and place for everything, let the circumstances be the guide.

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#118736 - 03/07/03 01:37 PM Re: on the roundhouse.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I understand the concepts of hip rotation and turning on the balls of the feet. I also realize that a back leg roundhouse is going to be much more powerful. Roundhouse is my favorite technique and I use it more than most other techniques but as far as it being my most powerful technique...no. It isnt hard to knock someone out with it as it is usually targeted at the side of the head and temple area. However have you ever tried breaking techniques with a roundhouse? Compared to a side kick or front kick it lacks the power. Now side kicks are a little more predictable but if you use an opener they are less predictable. Such as a roundhouse to side kick. Or front kick to roundhouse to side kick.(Although it takes some balance). The chambering of the kicks make them more pewerful.

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#118737 - 03/07/03 06:10 PM Re: on the roundhouse.
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
I have to repeat, I believe in keeping kicks low and fast. It's a lot easier to hit someone's leg with a roundhouse than any other kick. So I use it that way. Roundhouse is my general purpose kick. I only use front or side kicks if a safe opening appears. I try to use my "weapons" to attack at the same level they are on, IE kicks to the legs, knees to the groin/thigh, punches and elbows to the head. I don't throw body blows too much because most fights don't last long enough for them to be telling.
Personally, I think my front kick is my strongest. I never feel "rooted" enough in a side kick to deliver a lot of power. When I throw a front kick, I feel a straight line of force from the ground foot to the kicking foot.

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#118738 - 03/07/03 06:48 PM Re: on the roundhouse.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Wow! For once I agree with something Jamoni has said and that is that I feel that the front kick is my most powerful.

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#118739 - 03/08/03 08:24 PM Re: on the roundhouse.
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
What's not to agree with? I'm always right, aren't I? I mean, I'm smarter, I train harder, and my style is more badass than anyone else's.
(this is sarcasm, ladies and gentlemen)

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#118740 - 03/20/03 07:12 AM Re: on the roundhouse.
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
Surely gents, a spinning side thrust kick must when properly executed constitute the most potentialy powerful. The physiological aspects that come together to propel this technique would certainly point to this being the case.

Regds
Mr V

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#118741 - 03/20/03 08:16 AM Re: on the roundhouse.
UKfightfreak Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco
I don't really know about this but Shotokai (orthodox shotokan) do not have any thrust or spinning kicks.

They advocate snap kicks only.

Anyone got any ideas?

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#118742 - 03/20/03 09:09 PM Re: on the roundhouse.
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Mr. V, you make a good point about the power of a spinning side kick, but do you feel the danger of turning your back on an opponent is outweighed by the potential power? I do not. I have found spinning kicks to be too easily jammed, especially by a fast wrestler who will shoot for your legs the moment you start to spin.

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#118743 - 03/21/03 06:17 AM Re: on the roundhouse.
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
That's right Mr. V, IMHE [E for experience].

I was at a tournament in Joplin and they had one of those force kicking shields and had a power competition in which the participant could do any technique. Well, one of the last to go was Master Ali Fathohalli, student of Lee Choon Ahn.

Well Ali hits that kicking shield with the jump-spin side kick and doubled the previous score promting a huddle and a dis-allowal of the technique as being unfair...

He just kept saying, you said ANY technique!

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

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#118744 - 03/21/03 01:04 PM Re: on the roundhouse.
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
The back turning issue is a fair point which i can't argue with really except to say that this problem can surely be limited with good distancing and judgement as to the correct time to unload the technique. In all honesty i was really replying on the basis that some people suggested that the roundhouse was the most powerful rather than on a strictly practical basis.

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#118745 - 03/21/03 09:11 PM Re: on the roundhouse.
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Oh.

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#118746 - 03/23/03 09:27 PM Re: on the roundhouse.
mikelw Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1031
Loc: Bothell, Washington (not DC), ...
[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
Isshin-never say never, it always bites you in the butt, but, I agree none the less.[/QUOTE]
I usually kick with the instep (and yes, it DOES feel weak!), but only because it's the way we practice, and i am afraid of jamming my toes if i attempt to execute a roundhouse kick with the ball of my foot.

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#118747 - 03/24/03 12:11 AM Re: on the roundhouse.
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Shin; blunt force

Foot/instep; slapping force

Ball of the foot/heel; penetrating force

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#118748 - 03/24/03 02:39 AM Re: on the roundhouse.
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
I am speaking from the receiving end...

I have to agree with Joe. The instep is a slap, the shin is ... brunt and brutal.

When I first started contact karate, I winced at every slap (instep) on my quad. I get bruises that are 7 inches in diameter. But I can still seiza/walk without much discomfort. After some conditionings, the slaps still sting, but it doesn't stop me from fighting. It's pain without damage.

With the shin kicks... I don't know if you can "tough it out". It's not uncommon to see "waza-ari"/ "ippon kachi" at kyokushin world championship from shin-to-quad kicks; the fighter on the receiving end simply can't stand on the offended leg.

From first hand experience - there is no bruise on the surface, it's not a stinging pain - it's a "sh*t did that son-of-a-bee broke my leg?" pain. Bending the injured leg at the knee for any more than 30 degrees is excruciatingly painful for a few weeks. I tried to tough it out once, I stayed "standing" for the rest of the fight until timeout, but I was as good as a punchbag - my muscle was so damaged I couldn't lift my knee to block, I could hardly shift my weight. The fight WAS over at the moment the shin landed squarely on my quad.

I am not familiar with the "ball of the foot jab", the only time I practice it is during kihon and the rare join-dojo practices. My dojo doesn't use it much, I was told it doesn't do enough damage. And from what I've taken - I have to agree.

-raccoon

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#118749 - 03/24/03 03:59 AM Re: on the roundhouse.
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
Though i absolutely believe that your personal and or spectating experience of the ball of the foot roundhouse kick has not lead you to be impressed by it, I would disagree with any asertion that is is weaker that the instep variety. I certainly agree that some people dont deliver the ball of the foot roundhouse correctly or with sufficient force, either because as sugested earlier, they are afraid of damaging their toes or secondly because they find it harder to do head hight roundhouse kicks with the foot in this position. Simply on the basis of force against surface area of impact the ball of the foot must be more damaging. It also lestens the effect of "give" in the foot that occurs when the instep is used, thus reducing penetration of the target. Certainly if I was due to break something with a roundhouse kick i wouldn't use the instep. The shin possibly but never the instep. The one quite handy use of the instep roundhouse is i would agree when delivered in a downward cutting arc against the thigh or side of the knee.

Regds
Mr V


[This message has been edited by MrVigerous (edited 03-24-2003).]

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#118750 - 03/24/03 04:29 AM Re: on the roundhouse.
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Theoratically it makes sense. Smaller contact area with the same amount of force is going to do a lot more damage. But how do you get around the "fear of jamming toes"?

I can handle a few little cracks on the shin; I don't know about broken toes. Is there any safe way to practice the roundhouse ball/toes jab in full contact without breaking toes? I swear by shin conditioning, I don't know about toes...

Yours in Budo

-raccoon

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#118751 - 03/24/03 04:33 AM Re: on the roundhouse.
Scholar Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 472
Loc: Brockton
The wheel kick that starts as front then switches to roundhouse for fast fake out and the flying roundhouse E=MC squared (Mass times Speed equals power) All the mass is turning force into it with speed kick

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#118752 - 03/25/03 08:50 PM Re: on the roundhouse.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Raccoon and all the toe jammers [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
Why not wear shoes? In Kung Fu you practice this way. A lot of dojo's dont like it so you may not do it there but at home you can. In Moo Duk Kwan we keep the toes pointed towards your face so that your toes are always pointed towards you you have less chance of hitiing them on something since the ball kind of juts out there. It always hurts to jam a toe but doesnt it hurt when you punch in the face and your knucles swell? It doesnt keep you from punching does it? Dont toss the ball of the foot out of your arsenal it is a valuable weapon especially in TKD.

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#118753 - 03/26/03 04:59 AM Re: on the roundhouse.
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
Tradition. That's all.

Sport, too, but in many TKD schools nowadays, people do a lot of the class in martial arts shoes.

It's also a finess thing. Like the rapier to the broadsword.

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#118754 - 04/22/03 10:20 PM Re: on the roundhouse.
WavyD Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 18
<B> <quote>
I am not familiar with the "ball of the foot jab", the only time I practice it is during kihon and the rare join-dojo practices. My dojo doesn't use it much, I was told it doesn't do enough damage. And from what I've taken - I have to agree.

-raccoon

[/QUOTE]

Ball of the foot jab can be an awesome power kick or a great jab followed by a power kick (like jab - cross from boxing). I've studied Muay Thai for several years and I'm currently studying TKD, both styles can use the front kick very effectively. If you watch boxing you can see how some boxers only use the jab as busy work to setup power shots and others can really knock you out with the jab. The same can be said for TKD and Thai Boxers. I've seen many fighters get knocked out cold by a good front kick or get the wind knocked out of them then get punked by a good round kick. Just my thought and experience.

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#118755 - 05/19/03 08:16 AM Re: on the roundhouse.
tong po Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/18/03
Posts: 14
Loc: ohio
when i spar i use the top of my foot becuse its padded and i dont want to hurt anybody

when im in a match (full contact) or in a combat situation i use my shin.

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