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#118688 - 02/19/03 07:51 PM forget sport:mad:
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
i detest sport of any martial arts. its total disrespect to the system, to the masters who created them, and to every real fighter. even the full contact competitions are weak. sport is for children. all i ever hear is "i do it for sport" or "i placed in so and so's competition" who care's? when you do finally get in a real situation your attacker isnt going to care that you scored a point by ALMOST hitting him. get a clue. its blasphemy. how dare you mock the arts with your petty competitions. drop the gloves the judges and the point fighting and be a REAL fighter a REAL athlete.

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#118689 - 02/19/03 10:31 PM Re: forget sport:mad:
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
UFC, K1, Kyokushin nationals..I wouldn't call them weak...but still not the same a real life altercation.

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#118690 - 02/20/03 05:14 AM Re: forget sport:mad:
taebot Offline
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Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
I met most my current teachers at tournaments.

Did you lose a match you should have won?

It's a social gathering too!

In the Asian Journal of Martial Arts there is a great article buried some years back about an archery master who still competes at every meet and why. You should look it up. Great read!

(PS - I'll bet some great master was the first to hold a tournament [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] !)

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#118691 - 02/20/03 04:26 PM Re: forget sport:mad:
Jamoni Offline
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Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Chen zen: "Blasphemy"? "How dare you"? a "Real fighter/athlete"? Dude, chill out. Maybe you should give this verbal tongue lashing to the point fighter who made you mad. Besides, who are you to tell someone what their martial arts should be like? Of course point fighting isn't combat. It's a war game, like Risk, or chess, or paintball. Does this mean that only people who play "paintball" with real guns are cool? No, BECAUSE IT"S A GAME. A learning tool. Sure, misplaced pride in point fighting is annoying. So what?

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#118692 - 02/20/03 06:07 PM Re: forget sport:mad:
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
the point is this one you have something called muscle memory. if you train in tournaments and you train yourself to stop a blow an inch from an attackers body then that is what is going to happen in a real situation. also i dont mean to attack anyone's style but if you teach martial arts for sport you need to make it known that its for sport and will not save your life. all these people train and think well i won this or that tournament so i can defend myself when that simply isn't true. bill "superfoot" wallace talked about going from tournament and point fighting to full contact with kick boxers. him and guys just like him lost all the time cuz the couldnt take a hit and had never hit someone and had them keep coming. this is my point. sport is putting people in danger and they dont even know it.

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#118693 - 02/20/03 06:11 PM Re: forget sport:mad:
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Tae no i didnt lose a fight i should have won. and i think the social aspect of it is good. but its not real martial arts to me. i didnt spend 15 years training to fight for my school or my teacher i trained so that if i had to i could protect the ones i love. sport doesnt teach you that. also i dont look at ufc or pride or k1 as sport so much because there is contact. but to teach sport and to say this will save your life is wrong

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#118694 - 02/21/03 03:39 AM Re: forget sport:mad:
taebot Offline
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Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
I am going to post a thread this morning in the martial arts discussion forum that I would like you to read. I originally had JKogas and IK in mind, but I think you will be able to appreciate what is being said in the article I will reference.

Another article in this quarter's Journal of Asian Martial Arts discusses the Science and training behind elite TKD athletes. Even the most brutish of bulls would be wise to exercise some cranial ability if they wanted to survive in this hellish world which you seem to be so proud of being a part of...

One does wonder what your training will be like at 40 and if your body will share the injuries and conditions of other pro athletes and will you have the acumen of Ali at the end of the day?

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#118695 - 02/21/03 10:21 AM Re: forget sport:mad:
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Tae i read the article and posted a new thred as well. To jamoni first of to me martial arts and self defense isnt a game. Anyone who thinks it is is a damn fool. I dont attack people styles but I will tell you "Who I am to say what martial arts should be like" Im a fighter a martial artist.It is my life. People just like me created the arts improved the arts. Im a person. Look at the works of Bruce Lee. Everyone questioned his thoughts and methods as well. He was later said to be the greatest martial artist ever. Not to mention his revolutionary style and ideas that he spawned. I am ideas. I am creativity. I am HUMAN.

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#118696 - 02/21/03 05:29 PM Re: forget sport:mad:
Jamoni Offline
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Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Chen Zen, my question was "who are you to tell someone what THEIR MARTIAL ARTS should be like." My point is that MA means different things to different people. I disagree that TKD is useless for self defense. I DO agree that there are MANY bad TKD schools.
As far as games, GO is a game. Chess is a game. They are fun, stimulating, and CAN BE USED TO TEACH SOME ASPECTS OF STRATEGY.

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#118697 - 02/23/03 10:07 AM Re: forget sport:mad:
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Jamoni, I have never said TKD is bad for combat. I practice in TKD Im just saying dont go to a school that practices primarily in sport. Go to a good school like I did. Sport will not defend you. That was my point.

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#118698 - 02/24/03 03:58 AM Re: forget sport:mad:
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
Jamoni, I would argue that Poker is better for fighting strategy since you can't bluff in chess...

That's why America keeps getting over on Russia. They're tactitians who do not know how to call a bluff and don't know when to fold 'em and wait for the next hand.

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#118699 - 02/24/03 10:23 AM Re: forget sport:mad:
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Oddly Tae I agree. Also I think sometimes people should read the post more than once to realize whether or not you are attacking a system or a person. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#118700 - 02/24/03 10:49 AM Re: forget sport:mad:
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]I Dont know about taebot,But The system I WOuld attack, would be reality fighting. PS IN Reality fighting,As the opponet punches,He leads with his head,& That is a big mistake. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

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#118701 - 02/24/03 06:12 PM Re: forget sport:mad:
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Chen Zen, Who is attacking anything? Aren't we talking? I agree, actually, that it is better to train in an effective, realistic style. However, if a school IS a sport school, wouldn't you rather they put that on the sign, rather than fraudulently claim they are a self-defense school?
Taebot, you rock. Poker as a training tool for martial arts? Sweet.

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#118702 - 02/24/03 06:16 PM Re: forget sport:mad:
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
This has been my point the whole time Jamoni. I really dont think the arts should even allow sport schools unless the teach the actual self defense and combat applications of the style.

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#118703 - 02/25/03 05:08 AM Re: forget sport:mad:
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
One could esily argue that self-defense techniques should only be taught by law enforcement.

They are better trained.
They can instruct on the law.
They have first-hand knowlege of what works.
They can easily keep the bad element from learning.

In fact, it would be best to limit martial arts schools to only sport.

This is how the Chinese leaders think. They like to censor and direct rather than to let people be free to choose.

Some of you sound kinda Chinese...

...commie pinkos!

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

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#118704 - 02/25/03 12:50 PM Re: forget sport:mad:
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]I'm Not totalty against tourneyments.But The Karate ka should understand,That selfdefense is what he/she are there for.

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#118705 - 02/26/03 12:56 AM Re: forget sport:mad:
Hershal Offline
Member

Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 48
Loc: Sydney
I completely agree with chen... Tournament fighting helps you in almost no way... It helps to let you read your opponent, but it gives more trouble thatn its worth.
But this doesn't mean people shouldn't do it, It's just useless in the streets, still a bit of fun though...

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#118706 - 03/13/03 04:50 AM Re: forget sport:mad:
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
Tournament fighting helps you in almost no way... It helps to let you read your opponent

Statement two does not logically follow from statement one hence your argument has failed to make any valid point.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

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#118707 - 03/13/03 05:01 AM Re: forget sport:mad:
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
And to think, Chen, you said I was rude and disrespectfull!!

What does it matter to you, me or anyone what someone else chooses to do? Does it effect our training? Will we be the ones getting a kicking when the brown stuff hits the whirly thing? No.

Tolerance. Surely that has to be the key. Live and let live. As Alexander Chase said "The peak of tolerance is most readily achieved by those who are not burdened with convictions". An open mind would be good.

Budo

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#118708 - 03/13/03 11:16 AM Re: forget sport:mad:
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Cato, it has nothing to do with an open mind. And while we may not be the ones getting beat the problem is that these schools are letting people think that they can protect themselves when they cant. I dont believe in misleading people and that is exactly what they are doing.

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#118709 - 03/13/03 04:35 PM Re: forget sport:mad:
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Chen Zen, you say you don't believe in misleading people. Then don't. But you can't change what others believe, and there are enough scam artists and enough gullible people that crap will always be represented as gold, and always be taken as such. The only thing you can change in life is your own behaviour. Other peoples beliefs can only be dealt with, not changed.

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#118710 - 03/13/03 11:20 PM Re: forget sport:mad:
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I have to agree. I think that the reason people cant change is because they are afraid to open their eyes. It is unfortunate that these people later have to learn the hard way in a real ordeal.

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#118711 - 03/14/03 02:39 AM Re: forget sport:mad:
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
I think it is a massively sweeping statement to label ALL sports styles as misleading or disrespectfull. Of course there are charlatans who operate sports dojo's, just as there are some in traditional styles, but to dismiss the whole range of sports styles as having no benefit is, I think, going too far.

I think it is insulting and discourteous in the extreme to suggest styles that incorporate some sporting applications, like Judo, Karate or TKD, are worthless and soehow inferior.

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#118712 - 03/14/03 03:16 AM Re: forget sport:mad:
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
98% of people do not have to deal with a real ordeal. I did as a bouncer and crowd control, but I put myself in that situation. And yes, the competitive experience was very useful in getting looks at different attacks from new opponenets of many styles. It also helped develop calmness in the pocket. Opened my mind too...

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#118713 - 03/14/03 10:12 AM Re: forget sport:mad:
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
By no means am I denouncing all sport schools or any particular style (although TKD is plagued by this) I am protesting the places that say "We teach self defense- learn to protect your family" Then they teach you how to win tournaments. Tournament and street strategy are miles apart.

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#118714 - 03/15/03 04:22 AM Re: forget sport:mad:
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
Exactly why is it one cannot do both?

Cannot one be fluent in more than one language?

Cannot one earn degrees in more than one discipine?

Cannot one hold black belts in more than one style?

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#118715 - 03/15/03 04:52 AM Re: forget sport:mad:
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
Cannot one also have a snickerdoodle kicking contest? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

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#118716 - 03/15/03 01:30 PM Re: forget sport:mad:
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Im am not saying one could not do both but do not present on as the other, thats all. As for that contest HHHHIIIIYYYYYYYYYAAAAAAA!!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#118717 - 03/15/03 05:31 PM Re: forget sport:mad:
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Some guy was out hunting, and he shot a duck. The duck fell right into a 300lb farmers field, and by the time the hunter got there, the farmer had the duck.
"Thanks for getting my duck," said the hunter.
"Your duck? It landed in my field, so it's MY duck." Said the farmer.
"I'll tell you what," said the hunter. "I'll Ro-sham-bo you for it."
"Whats that?"
"It's a nut kicking contest. We take turns kicking each other in the nuts until one of us quits. The winner gets the duck."
"Alright,"says the farmer, and the hunter hauled off and kicked him in the jimmies so hard he passed out.
When he comes to, he says to the hunter: "Alright, now it's MY TURN!"
"Ah, you win," said the hunter. "keep the f-ing duck."

[This message has been edited by Jamoni (edited 03-15-2003).]

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#118718 - 03/17/03 05:53 AM Re: forget sport:mad:
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
An old one, but still funny...

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#118719 - 03/17/03 05:54 AM Re: forget sport:mad:
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
I could see IsshynKid taking one in the snickerdoodles to prove how tough he was! I'd give him the duck for a chuck!

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

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