FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 29 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Bartfast, ZapEm, AndyLA, danacohenn, ksusanc
22906 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Dobbersky 10
AndyLA 5
cxt 3
futsaowingchun 3
VDJ 2
August
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
New Topics
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
Yesterday at 05:22 AM
Chi Sao demonstration
by futsaowingchun
08/14/14 10:57 PM
Decent Fight channel
by FrankyFruits
08/07/14 09:19 PM
2014 European Championships Cadets Athens: Videos
by ergees
08/07/14 10:00 AM
Life goes on....
by Dobbersky
08/07/14 05:59 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
Applied center line theory
by futsaowingchun
07/28/14 08:55 AM
centerline concepts
by futsaowingchun
07/14/14 10:49 PM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:14 AM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Recent Posts
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
Yesterday at 05:22 AM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by VDJ
08/15/14 05:46 PM
Chi Sao demonstration
by futsaowingchun
08/14/14 10:57 PM
The Karate punch
by Dobbersky
08/12/14 05:14 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by Dobbersky
08/11/14 05:03 AM
Decent Fight channel
by FrankyFruits
08/07/14 09:19 PM
2014 European Championships Cadets Athens: Videos
by ergees
08/07/14 10:00 AM
Life goes on....
by Dobbersky
08/07/14 05:59 AM
A post for those who might become martial artists.
by AndyLA
08/06/14 07:25 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
Forum Stats
22906 Members
36 Forums
35570 Topics
432472 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 15 1 2 3 ... 14 15 >
Topic Options
#118374 - 12/21/02 07:36 AM Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
Why does tkd have high kicks? I Think it's mostly show,& Can anyone prove to me that it can work in any particular situation? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118375 - 12/21/02 01:48 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Ever been kicked in the head?

Reckon no one can land a kick on your face?

Top
#118376 - 12/21/02 05:00 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Plz Don't take this as a insult, But High kicks are a waste of movement. Cause the high'er the kick the more open a person is.Why does anyone need to kick to the head, that won't disable a person, the same way a kick to the knee, would.A Good ol simple kick to knee,& That that will finnish the job. Example If someone starts to harrass ya & then steps forward with the left foot, do you kick them in the head?No of course not,The Targets are the Knee,shin & the arch of the foot.It cld be a straight kick or side kick or cross kick depending on your position. I Mean no insult by this, It's just my opinion.But If Im wrong, plz explain why the high kicks? I Remember tkd practitioner was in the ring with a friend of mine who was from the same dojo as I.Evertime He started to kick high he'd get hit,& he did it again & got kicked in the groin. in Isshinryu karate a kick to the groin is legal,But not in tkd.& this is kumite which should not be compared to self defense.So why has it become more a bout kicking in the head? You should sidestep or parry,Make you blocks strikes.Keep your kicks low so you can be ready if another attack were to happen. Exaggerate the move,if your foe pulls your arm,Don't fight it go with it but faster & give'm a knee.Or do high low combinations,Until the oportunity presents itself. But never kick high in a real fight. PS But Thats just my opinion. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by isshinryu kid (edited 12-21-2002).]

Top
#118377 - 12/21/02 05:17 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]& Remember I mean no insult by this.

Top
#118378 - 12/21/02 05:21 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Isshin;
"If someone starts to harrass ya & then steps forward with the left foot, do you kick them in the head?"

Joe;
It depends, how close you are, and the way they are standing and the position of their hands. A powerful mawashi geri is easier to deliver than a properly focused side kick.

I entirely agree that a swift groin kick is a great counter to any mawashi geri, none the less.

Top
#118379 - 12/22/02 07:30 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by joesixpack:
Isshin;
"If someone starts to harrass ya & then steps forward with the left foot, do you kick them in the head?"

Joe;
It depends, how close you are, and the way they are standing and the position of their hands. A powerful mawashi geri is easier to deliver than a properly focused side kick.

I entirely agree that a swift groin kick is a great counter to any mawashi geri, none the less.
[/QUOTE]

Top
#118380 - 12/22/02 07:42 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by isshinryu kid:
[/QUOTE]

Top
#118381 - 12/24/02 05:37 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Does tkd have any kicks that are low?& IF SO WHY not use them as well? Don't get me wrong I respect the tkd practitioners.I wont make a war out of who's style is the best.I Just want to know wht happens to the tkd practitioner when he/she gets older & can't kick high anymore. PS My opologies fo tomany questions. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118382 - 01/07/03 12:58 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Moogong Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/06/03
Posts: 24
Loc: West Point, Va United States
[QUOTE]Originally posted by isshinryu kid:
[QUOTE]Does tkd have any kicks that are low?& IF SO WHY not use them as well? Don't get me wrong I respect the tkd practitioners.I wont make a war out of who's style is the best.I Just want to know wht happens to the tkd practitioner when he/she gets older & can't kick high anymore. PS My opologies fo tomany questions. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

isshinryu kid...hi..how are you!?

Barring any hip problems, with proper stretching and daily practice, high kicks can be preformed with great power and accuracy well into a persons 60's. I think most every hard style has techniqes that might not suit an older practicioner's body. Every marital artist, as he gets older, is going to adapt there training towards thier strengths. A TKD stylist will focus mainly on lower kicks and softer hand strikes. Its just like alot of karate masters, as they age, became harder to hit. This is because of experience in reading a persons movements and years of building the muscle memory.

Does that answer your question? I hope its not more confusing [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118383 - 01/07/03 02:33 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Hey moogong, I've gotta a story for ya,About 10 yrs ago A tkd stylest came to the dojo.& He wanted to do some sparring,& he did a high kick & got kicked in the groin.& That wuz sparring I'd hate to see wht wld happen on the street.I Remember in 1996 3 Guys going to take advatage this one girl.But this poor defenseless gir kick 3 of them in the groin,& one of them had a tire iron.Which just proves if ya want to disable ur foe,ya kick low. So moogong whtever ya do,Don't do any high kicks in a real fight. PS HAVE A NICE DAY [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118384 - 01/07/03 03:12 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Moogong Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/06/03
Posts: 24
Loc: West Point, Va United States
[QUOTE]Originally posted by isshinryu kid:
[QUOTE]Hey moogong, I've gotta a story for ya,About 10 yrs ago A tkd stylest came to the dojo.& He wanted to do some sparring,& he did a high kick & got kicked in the groin.& That wuz sparring I'd hate to see wht wld happen on the street.I Remember in 1996 3 Guys going to take advatage this one girl.But this poor defenseless gir kick 3 of them in the groin,& one of them had a tire iron.Which just proves if ya want to disable ur foe,ya kick low. So moogong whtever ya do,Don't do any high kicks in a real fight. PS HAVE A NICE DAY [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] [/QUOTE]


First, not all TKD stylist are created equal. I would never judge a technique bases on one experience or one martial artist that came to your dojo. Secondly, how sad are three aggressors if they cannot take advantage of what you call "poor defenseless girl"?? Especially the one with the tire iron...was he changing a tire at the time? This story sounds false, please provide the news clipping or link to where I can read the details surronding this. They must have been midly retarded to let this girl kick all three of them in the groin. You would think that by the time she got the 3rd guy, he would wise and up guard his crotch.
High kicks, just like any technique, have a time and place in self-defense applications.
Where you believe it or not is up to you. Whatever you do though, don't under estimate any techique.

PS...Thanks for the stories anyway. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118385 - 01/07/03 04:57 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
As a self defence move, I, in general, would have to go with "avoid it". That said if you think you can get away with it....why not???

It would appear the original post was not answered. Why the high kicks in TKD?

This is partially myth brought about by generation after generation of MA movies. High, jumping and/or spinning kicks look great on screen.

Now back to reality. TKD has high kicks, just as Karate and many other MAs do. It also has mid/low range kicks and sweeps. TKD is known for its devastating kicks full stop, even high ones. They are definately not show.

Where does the powerful high kick develop from? I am told that an early form of TKD was used by the Koreans when the Japanese invaded. As the Japanese warriors tended to be on horseback, a simple way to even the odds was to literally kick them off. How true this I am unsure, but sounds like a feasable notion.

As for kumite these types of kicks are just as valid. It depends a lot on the practitioner and have seen them used to devastating effect in kumite. Like any other technique, they should be used with various combinations.

Budo.

Top
#118386 - 01/09/03 04:52 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by judderman:
As a self defence move, I, in general, would have to go with "avoid it". That said if you think you can get away with it....why not???

It would appear the original post was not answered. Why the high kicks in TKD?

This is partially myth brought about by generation after generation of MA movies. High, jumping and/or spinning kicks look great on screen.

Now back to reality. TKD has high kicks, just as Karate and many other MAs do. It also has mid/low range kicks and sweeps. TKD is known for its devastating kicks full stop, even high ones. They are definately not show.

Where does the powerful high kick develop from? I am told that an early form of TKD was used by the Koreans when the Japanese invaded. As the Japanese warriors tended to be on horseback, a simple way to even the odds was to literally kick them off. How true this I am unsure, but sounds like a feasable notion.

As for kumite these types of kicks are just as valid. It depends a lot on the practitioner and have seen them used to devastating effect in kumite. Like any other technique, they should be used with various combinations.

Budo.
[/QUOTE]All DO respect.Not All karate styles kick high.For example you've,Shotokan,Gojuryu,shorinryu,Isshinryu & Ed Parkers kenpo,& Not one of these styles kick high. AS it'sa waste of movement,As well as dangerous. & As for kicking someone off of a horse while it's going 40 mph,Well thats another myth As the koreans did'nt do any M/as at that time.& As for using any kumite techniques for slf defense is a BIG MISTAKE. Cuz Kumite techniques are nothing more than alot of waterd down karate.Ya can't disable a person with kumite.In Slf defense the maine goal is to win no matter what the cost.In Other words If his/her Knee is bent it gets kicked,Or the shin, Or the toes,Depending on the distance.So I'd use kumite techniques in the dojo,& Slf defense techniques for the street. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118387 - 01/10/03 05:48 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Moogong Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/06/03
Posts: 24
Loc: West Point, Va United States
[QUOTE]Originally posted by isshinryu kid:
[QUOTE]

Budo.
[/QUOTE]All DO respect.Not All karate styles kick high.For example you've,Shotokan,Gojuryu,shorinryu,Isshinryu & Ed Parkers kenpo,& Not one of these styles kick high. AS it'sa waste of movement,As well as dangerous. & As for kicking someone off of a horse while it's going 40 mph,Well thats another myth As the koreans did'nt do any M/as at that time.& As for using any kumite techniques for slf defense is a BIG MISTAKE. Cuz Kumite techniques are nothing more than alot of waterd down karate.Ya can't disable a person with kumite.In Slf defense the maine goal is to win no matter what the cost.In Other words If his/her Knee is bent it gets kicked,Or the shin, Or the toes,Depending on the distance.So I'd use kumite techniques in the dojo,& Slf defense techniques for the street. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

[/QUOTE]

Here are some pictures of karate stylist kicking high. These are taken from galleries on websites of styles you mentioned.

Shotokan http://www.uniques.com/shotokan/photo.htm

Isshinryu
http://krrichardson.freeservers.com/isshinryu/pics/isshpg15.html

Kenpo
http://www.adventurehiking.com/RichOnLine/Karate/RichCx3.html
http://www.adventurehiking.com/RichOnLine/Karate/RhBhKick.html
http://www.rathdownkenpo.com/images/chlf.JPG

I thought I would throw this one in..

Zashin Kai Karate
http://www.zanshinkai.com/gallery_index.html#


Also, being Korean and having been raised in Korea, I can assure you that Korean soliders dissmounting horseriding enemies is no myth. Thats like me saying the American Civil War didnt involve the use of the bayonet.
Koreans not doing martial arts at the time? I dont know where you get that claim from but I can assure Korea has had martial arts in one form or another for centuries. Just for your martial arts education, you should take a trip to Korea. You would find it very eye opening.

PS..Have a great weekend!

Top
#118388 - 01/11/03 06:27 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]On the isshinryu website all of what ya had to show me are kick done in kumite. & Kumite & slfdefence are different as night & day. I am A isshinryu stylest,& The kicks are low.The Other websites accept for 1 show kumite kicking techniques.& Most fights on the streets or in the bars are gonna be close in fighting or a brawl. In Other words to close to do a high kick, & to stop a fight from becoming a brawl ya kick low or sweep the guy.Remember a force, no matter how powerful,Does not exist unti it meets resistance.If there is no resitance ther can be no force.The power of karate lies not in the physical technique,But in the philosophy of the technique. PS Have A Nice Day [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118389 - 01/11/03 06:53 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Moogong Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/06/03
Posts: 24
Loc: West Point, Va United States
[QUOTE]Originally posted by isshinryu kid:
[QUOTE]On the isshinryu website all of what ya had to show me are kick done in kumite. & Kumite & slfdefence are different as night & day. I am A isshinryu stylest,& The kicks are low.The Other websites accept for 1 show kumite kicking techniques.& Most fights on the streets or in the bars are gonna be close in fighting or a brawl. In Other words to close to do a high kick, & to stop a fight from becoming a brawl ya kick low or sweep the guy.Remember a force, no matter how powerful,Does not exist unti it meets resistance.If there is no resitance ther can be no force.The power of karate lies not in the physical technique,But in the philosophy of the technique. PS Have A Nice Day [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

What Im responding too Issinryu, is your statement that "Not on of these styles kick high". You're argument of seperation of kumite and self-defense techniques used in karate can equally be applied to that of TKD.
Another myth is that you need lots of distance to do a head level kick. I have see, TKD, Karate, and Kung-Fu stylist do powerful head kicks standing nose to nose with their opponent. It's just a matter of training to get the flexibility and range of motion in the hips.


Oh..your theory of force needing resistance for power is a little off. If you have ever seen an aero-physics display, you will see wonderful examples how matter and speed can manifest their own quick bursts of energy. Take the sonic boom for example [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

PS..Have a nice weekend!

Top
#118390 - 01/11/03 08:49 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
ok. There seems to be a little confusion.

I have practiced Shotokan for 14 years. I can say unequivocally that Shotokan does and uses high kicks.

Now then, these high kicks and some jumping kicks have been used in kumite. I have watched other styles of kumite and some lightening fast and devastating high kicks have been used.

For an example of how close you can get to high kicks, I direct you to last European Seminar of ITF TKD with the late General Choi in Budapest. Here one of the polish attendants performed a jumping reverse turning kick, to kick a paper cup of the head of another attendee. This was done at a distance of no more than 1 foot away from his opponent. Admittedly this is show, but it is a poiniant show.
As for kumite being "watered down" tequnique, I hope that you are suggesting that the tequniques are "controlled". This is true to an extent. However, when the adrenaline starts pumping, lets see how many "controlled" tequniques are performed. Controlled simply means you don't kill or maim your opponent.

Now for self defence. Generally speaking I would avoid high kicks because they can cause the practitioner to become unstable. Low kicks are more likely to succeed. That said I know of a story for ya. A pub brawl fell out onto the street. A 7th Kyu Karate-ka executed Jodan Mae Geri on his opponent. The opponent unfortunately died lated from the head injuries sustained, not only by the kick, but also the impact of falling.

I would say that was effective.

Now to another statement made. A kick to th head will not diable someone in the same way a kick to the knee will. Being pedantic I would say, obviously, they are different parts of the body. Ask yourself two simple questions:
Where is the body controlled from?
Why do we have punches to the head?

High kicks can work in a given situation, either kumite or street fighting. Like any other technique there is a time and place and probably better ones to perform in the same situation.

So does that answer your original post?

You are slightly off with your "force" idea. There is no way of measuring force with out resistance. This does not mean there is no force. But we're getting into the realms of if a tree fell in an empty wood, would it make a sound?

Budo.

[This message has been edited by judderman (edited 01-11-2003).]

Top
#118391 - 01/11/03 10:24 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Moogong Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/06/03
Posts: 24
Loc: West Point, Va United States
[QUOTE]Originally posted by judderman:
ok. There seems to be a little confusion.

I have practiced Shotokan for 14 years. I can say unequivocally that Shotokan does and uses high kicks.

Now then, these high kicks and some jumping kicks have been used in kumite. I have watched other styles of kumite and some lightening fast and devastating high kicks have been used.

For an example of how close you can get to high kicks, I direct you to last European Seminar of ITF TKD with the late General Choi in Budapest. Here one of the polish attendants performed a jumping reverse turning kick, to kick a paper cup of the head of another attendee. This was done at a distance of no more than 1 foot away from his opponent. Admittedly this is show, but it is a poiniant show.
As for kumite being "watered down" tequnique, I hope that you are suggesting that the tequniques are "controlled". This is true to an extent. However, when the adrenaline starts pumping, lets see how many "controlled" tequniques are performed. Controlled simply means you don't kill or maim your opponent.

Now for self defence. Generally speaking I would avoid high kicks because they can cause the practitioner to become unstable. Low kicks are more likely to succeed. That said I know of a story for ya. A pub brawl fell out onto the street. A 7th Kyu Karate-ka executed Jodan Mae Geri on his opponent. The opponent unfortunately died lated from the head injuries sustained, not only by the kick, but also the impact of falling.

I would say that was effective.

Now to another statement made. A kick to th head will not diable someone in the same way a kick to the knee will. Being pedantic I would say, obviously, they are different parts of the body. Ask yourself two simple questions:
Where is the body controlled from?
Why do we have punches to the head?

High kicks can work in a given situation, either kumite or street fighting. Like any other technique there is a time and place and probably better ones to perform in the same situation.

So does that answer your original post?

You are slightly off with your "force" idea. There is no way of measuring force with out resistance. This does not mean there is no force. But we're getting into the realms of if a tree fell in an empty wood, would it make a sound?

Budo.

[This message has been edited by judderman (edited 01-11-2003).]
[/QUOTE]


I do agree with what you are saying here. About 2 years ago a green belt, in a movie theather lobby, kicked a aggressor in the head, broke his neck, and is now serving time in jail. It was the wrong technique to use, uncontrolled, but it was effective.

I disagree to not being able to measure force without resistance...both NASA, Aero-space departments, Ford Motor Company..etc...do just that all the time.

Top
#118392 - 01/13/03 12:43 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE] Ya Never Know about some of these techniques until u use them. & If I ever knock somebody out,I wont be waiting for the cops to come,I'll leave in a hurry.Cuz Where I live the laws are against anyone who uses karate for self defense. I was gonna tell ya something but I forgot,I guess Im getting old. PS Talk to ya later.

Top
#118393 - 01/13/03 12:45 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by isshinryu kid:
[QUOTE] Ya Never Know about some of these techniques until u use them. & If I ever knock somebody out,I wont be waiting for the cops to come,I'll leave in a hurry.Cuz Where I live the laws are against anyone who uses karate for self defense. I was gonna tell ya something but I forgot,I guess Im getting old. PS Talk to ya later. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118394 - 01/15/03 03:23 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
WrAiTh21 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 8
Ok, so some may view high kicks as useless in a street fight. But just because the technique isn't useful for self defence, doesn't mean it shouldn't be in the art. Take meditation, breaking or patterns for instance. Should we eliminate these because they are not useful against an attacker on the street?

Top
#118395 - 01/15/03 06:30 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by WrAiTh21:
Ok, so some may view high kicks as useless in a street fight. But just because the technique isn't useful for self defence, doesn't mean it shouldn't be in the art. Take meditation, breaking or patterns for instance. Should we eliminate these because they are not useful against an attacker on the street?[/QUOTE]High KIcks Are not only useless, they'er not practical.But u said it urslf,The technique is'nt useful.& If it's not useful, why use it? & kata It Teaches the body how to move/muscelmemory.But the bunkai/applications of a kata are useful & can be used on the street.& As for breaking Iam all for it.But I think meditation gets in the way of learning slfdfence PS No Insult was intended [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118396 - 01/15/03 09:37 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
I was trained in the USMC to shoot a target at 500 meters which is nice, but not practical in a self-defense situation. But, it made me a better over-all soldier.

When I sport fight, I like to play games using combinations such as high/low, front/back, foot/hand, and the ability to put your foot upside someone's ear keeps them honest and sets up the reverse punch, which is my bread and butter...

Top
#118397 - 01/15/03 09:40 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
As the doorman at a nightclub, I used the Full-Nelson of my high school wrestling days and the right cross as popularized by John Wayne.

Hence I could postulate that ALL martial arts are a complete waste of time in a self-defense situation.

I mean, other than the calm, the strength, distancing, footwork, etc. High kicking could NEVER help with any of those skills, now could it?

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118398 - 01/16/03 06:30 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
I just read you comments on too many kicks
Isshinryu.

I was at the dojo of one my weapons instructors. Before weapons was sparring, which, I like a lot more than weapons, so I was there.

Well sensei gives me one of his eager "good" fighters. The lad was very enthusiastic. Straight line, no kicks, just begin your attack and stick with it (a dangerous combination). I always tell students, rarely do you ever do something twice and never do you do it three times successively.

So, on the lad's third attack, I timed his bull rush and fired a jump-spin crescent kick (as we call it). When the young man was assisted to his feet, he naturally wanted to know what I had just clocked him with.

Eyes wide in admeiration he said, "I've never seen that before!"

"Son, you STILL haven't SEEN it!"

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

That's another part of the answer.

IT'S JUST PLAIN FUN!

Top
#118399 - 01/16/03 07:19 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]So u fight someone who was,nt as good as u.That,s realy something to be proud of,But u wld,nt be able to do that kick in a real fight.So lets be realistic,MOst fights wether they,er on the street, or in a bar/pub Will be to close for u to do a spining back kick.& There,s a difference between sparring & slfdefence.Sparring is sport,& would,nt work on the street.But a kick to the knee, will even take down, the biggest of men. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118400 - 01/16/03 08:58 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
mikelw Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1031
Loc: Bothell, Washington (not DC), ...
Hence I could postulate that ALL martial arts are a complete waste of time in a self-defense situation.


Are you INSANE? Martial arts are a complete waste of time in a self-defense situation?? Fight a shaolin monk sometime, i guarantee you that your full nelson or right cross wouldn't do jack. You wouldn't get close enough to use them. DO you honestly think ALL martial arts are USELESS in self defense?? come on now...

Top
#118401 - 01/17/03 07:01 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
IK - I've done it in competition too [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] !

If I conceed that you deflected that point, do I get the others? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

As to "Am I insane," we'll let time tell [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] !

No Mike, they are most useful in distancing, calmness, and other matters great and small. I was pointing out fallacious logic.

Having been to China, let me say that most Shaolin rise to the level of my sternum, most weigh what my leg weighs, and having trained with Malaysians of no slack martial ability, by their own admission, size does matter [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] !

But me and a Shaolin Monk would never have a conflict because of our greatly similar natures and outlook towards our brethern.

Top
#118402 - 01/17/03 10:01 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Mr. Taebot, You must be the most accomplished martial artist on the planet to be able to say that ALL martial arts are ineffective in self defence. But then if your merely postulating it becomes little more than your opinion, doesn't it? Well, there is a saying that goes opinions are a bit like arseholes - everybody has one. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Did you ever consider the possibility that the art might be okay for self defence, but the artist wasn't capable of using it properly?

Top
#118403 - 01/17/03 12:07 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikelw:


Hence I could postulate that ALL martial arts are a complete waste of time in a self-defense situation.


Are you INSANE? Martial arts are a complete waste of time in a self-defense situation?? Fight a shaolin monk sometime, i guarantee you that your full nelson or right cross wouldn't do jack. You wouldn't get close enough to use them. DO you honestly think ALL martial arts are USELESS in self defense?? come on now...
[/QUOTE]Hi Mikey, [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] I Gather that u hav,nt learned any slfdefence techniques.Cuz ur to buzy play fighting in the ring. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]So if u ever get mugged, u only hav urslf to blame. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] Oh BTY, This mcdojo attitude, of urs wont help u on the street. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] PSThese So called shoulin monks,Are paid by the goverment.As They teach wushu,Not Shoulin kungfu.In Other words, they'er not realy shoulin monks,It's all just 4 show. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]


[This message has been edited by isshinryu kid (edited 01-17-2003).]

Top
#118404 - 01/18/03 11:54 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
Cato - You simply missed the tounge-in-cheek or are replying in king.

Let's try this approach. [Devil's Advocate]

Assume I am A TKD stylist (not a stretch). I may advance, using IK's logic, the following argument. The Isshynryu verticle fist is a non-effective self-defense technique. How do I know? If it worked, we'd do it our system so obviously our masters knew something your one lone guy didn't know.

However, having compared notes in the training hall (i.e., putting on the gloves) and having been trained by a respected Sifu, I know exactly how effective the techinique can be expecially shooting up from the center line into the opponent's sternum, especially in rapid-fire sequences.

Again, my point being, as martial artists, we do a lot of things that might not be applicable to self-defense. I often view my kama practice as just one such thing.

So why does Tae Kwon Do have high kicks? Maybe it makes your lower kicks more effective. Maybe it makes your body stronger. Maybe it gives you a weapon to use at distance. You don't need to let every assault end in battery. Yes, I can let you get into reverse punch range, but, but, IF I get lucky with the boot to the head, I don't have too. If I miss, I can still throw a real good verticle punch straigh to the 'ol kisser...

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

And maybe, just maybe it's a lot of fun in sparring to pretent you're Chuck Norris or Bill Wallace...

I know I do!

Every once in a while (like this morning!).

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118405 - 01/18/03 07:08 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by taebot:
Cato - You simply missed the tounge-in-cheek or are replying in king.

Let's try this approach. [Devil's Advocate]

Assume I am A TKD stylist (not a stretch). I may advance, using IK's logic, the following argument. The Isshynryu verticle fist is a non-effective self-defense technique. How do I know? If it worked, we'd do it our system so obviously our masters knew something your one lone guy didn't know.

However, having compared notes in the training hall (i.e., putting on the gloves) and having been trained by a respected Sifu, I know exactly how effective the techinique can be expecially shooting up from the center line into the opponent's sternum, especially in rapid-fire sequences.

Again, my point being, as martial artists, we do a lot of things that might not be applicable to self-defense. I often view my kama practice as just one such thing.

So why does Tae Kwon Do have high kicks? Maybe it makes your lower kicks more effective. Maybe it makes your body stronger. Maybe it gives you a weapon to use at distance. You don't need to let every assault end in battery. Yes, I can let you get into reverse punch range, but, but, IF I get lucky with the boot to the head, I don't have too. If I miss, I can still throw a real good verticle punch straigh to the 'ol kisser...

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

And maybe, just maybe it's a lot of fun in sparring to pretent you're Chuck Norris or Bill Wallace...

I know I do!

Every once in a while (like this morning!).

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]When a white blt 1st learns the verticle punch.He must take it slow & easy,Exactness of movement.So he's muscels can get' Used to it.But by the time'He's a green bl,He can give the verticle punch, Aloud Snap.& As a brown blt,He can make alouder snap,With the vericle punch,But gnerate more power,by using the hip.& Not long after becoming a blk blt,He must learn the body dynamics to go with it. IN Other words,The practitioner is will no longer be stagnate.While the feet are shoulder width apart.& Ur weight should be equally distributed Take a half of a step, Of the left foot,The toe must be behind the heel of the lead foot.& As the fist is chamberd,Push back with the left foot foward,& foward with the right foot back.& As u are turning,the power of the back ft.which will then take u to the leg,& Then to the hip.& Then to the side of the body, & Then to the shoulder.& then the the energy is going to the arm,While ur body's turning,to the fist, while u let air out for extra power.So It is realy the power from the LFF,Being transferd to the Right back ft.& Then to the leg,Hip,& to the side of the body,Or ribs.& It all goes in to the shoulder,arm & fist.All of which is called,Opposite reaction force.& The best part about the vericle punch, Is u don't no it's coming. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]



[This message has been edited by isshinryu kid (edited 01-18-2003).]

Top
#118406 - 01/19/03 04:07 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
Same thing with jump-spin crescent kick [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] !

Here's a little something I was going to add for you yesterday, but my daughter just HAD to play pinball (for all of five minutes, but what are you gonna do? She's four and thinks she is the center of the universe...).

So, here goes:

I note your concern for the aging Taekwondo practioners. I just turned 45 and still have no problems with high kicks. We have a 50+ black belt/yoga enthusiast who can easily kick to the head. Jhoon Rhee is as old as dirt, and look at what he can do.

But I know a lot of middle-aged sixth degrees who couldnít find the dojo if the master ever moved, if you catch my drift.

So donít fret. Us old guys are still alive and kickiní!

[This message has been edited by taebot (edited 01-19-2003).]

Top
#118407 - 01/19/03 08:11 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] Well in isshinryu we kick to the groin, which I know is against the rules in taecrapdo.For example,A tkd stylist, came to the dojo,& Wanted to fight someone.Well that someone was me,It was'nt long after we got into the ring,That he tried a high kick. BIG MISTAKE,AS soon as he did that I kicked him in the groin. He Cried like a baby, [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/redface.gif[/IMG]& Complained to my instructor.As the senoir blts, told him that in isshinryu it was aloud.Any he left crying,& complaining,& Still waering his protective vest.I Gotta tell u waering a vest is for babies.In Isshinryu we protect ourelves with letting out our breath as we're being hit. I Guess some people havta learn the hard way [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118408 - 01/19/03 08:12 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
Hey, IK, indulge me a moment. I am about to go to a workout with a group that I admire and respect, maybe for the last time, as my wife's career calls for us to relocate over to Cape Gerardeau (sp?) so I am a bit reflective today, even nostalgic as I think about some of the times and place where I've had to say goodbye.

It finaly soak into my oft-battered skull, IsshynRyu, Tennessee, ...

Ever run across a good 'ol boy name of Jerry Sullivan?

I know a good story that ties into this thread.

Top
#118409 - 01/19/03 05:23 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Swordfish Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/10/01
Posts: 22
IK,

I find your arguments childish and offensive. Does your martial art teach you about respect? Well how about respecting the techniques of other forms of martial arts. I am an instructor of TKD and in saying that, I still do not know everything about my art. I think it is very ignorant of you to rubbish the techniques of TKD as you don't seem to have an understanding of them. And as for calling TKD "tae crapdo" .... well, your credibility on this thread has just gone right out of the window!

And did you ever stop to consider that the TKD practioner that you kicked low was not aware that this was a legal move and therefore was not expecting such a low blow? And to be frank, you should have had more control over your technique so as not to cause great pain to your new opponent.

Top
#118410 - 01/19/03 06:43 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Jeniko Offline
Member

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 126
Loc: England
I once was sparring with a guy who done tae kwon do, it was semi contact and he seemed very cocky about it, he'd been doing it for a year and a half and i've only been doing kung fu for 7 months. So he was acting really cocky about it. I set him up for a trap and waited for him to approach, as he did i done a stop side kick into his side and it sent him down to the floor ( he was winded) . I didn't mean to do it and i appologised alot for it as it wasn't intentional. but once he got up he was fine and shook my hand and told me it was a good kick, i was still saying sorry for it and it wasn't suppost to hurt him, more to stop him.

and i felt kinda bad about it [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG]

I don't know how someone can have the ignorance to call tae kwon do a crap art as it's not, i've started it now as i get taught privately with me and my friend and i love it. I like the variety of it. And considering the head is a fragile part of the human body containing the brain which if stuck hard enough can cause dizzyness and instablility i think if the situation is right a high kick is worth a try.

I think IK should try to open his mind abit and get some self control.

Top
#118411 - 01/20/03 05:30 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jeniko:
I once was sparring with a guy who done tae kwon do, it was semi contact and he seemed very cocky about it, he'd been doing it for a year and a half and i've only been doing kung fu for 7 months. So he was acting really cocky about it. I set him up for a trap and waited for him to approach, as he did i done a stop side kick into his side and it sent him down to the floor ( he was winded) . I didn't mean to do it and i appologised alot for it as it wasn't intentional. but once he got up he was fine and shook my hand and told me it was a good kick, i was still saying sorry for it and it wasn't suppost to hurt him, more to stop him.

and i felt kinda bad about it [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG]

I don't know how someone can have the ignorance to call tae kwon do a crap art as it's not, i've started it now as i get taught privately with me and my friend and i love it. I like the variety of it. And considering the head is a fragile part of the human body containing the brain which if stuck hard enough can cause dizzyness and instablility i think if the situation is right a high kick is worth a try.

I think IK should try to open his mind abit and get some self control.
[/QUOTE]Let Me clarify,I am talking about sport tkd.But in the real world,Most fights will be close.To close for a high kick.& where as one technique might coz dizziness.A Kick to the Knee,& U disable the agressor.Why? So he wont try it again. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] PS NO INSULT WAS INTENDED. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118412 - 01/20/03 05:45 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
Swordfish

In a way, your reply was of the same.
Take out the personal and just make the argument. Teaching is teaching and we teach by example. There are better, more civil ways to refute his contention and that is what we strive to do.

Back in about '84 I was making the transition from the strictly controlled world of Korean-led Taekwondo to the more Open American martial arts scene. We were down at the local Karate club and I had the opportunity to spar an Isshynryu guy for the first time, a much more experienced black belt and tournament competitor, i.e., IK, he was just plain better than me (going back to someone's, oh well, so you took advantage of someone not as good as you...).

I scored the first point, roundkick to the head. He cleaned my clock on the next point, a backfist. Not much else matters, other than I learned a lot from him that day and have always been grateful for the opportunity.

He hadn't trained much against a head kick it seems.

I hadn't trained at all for hands to the head.

Not one style, technique, system, or school of thought is either completely perfect or imperfect.

yin

yang

(Not you [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] the concept!)

[This message has been edited by taebot (edited 01-20-2003).]

Top
#118413 - 01/20/03 05:48 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
PS - At our TKD school we train with the groin and now account for it in doing forms...

Based on my open-minded attitude towards learning from other styles and seeing without prejudice just what they were offering.

Top
#118414 - 01/20/03 06:23 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by taebot:
PS - At our TKD school we train with the groin and now account for it in doing forms...

Based on my open-minded attitude towards learning from other styles and seeing without prejudice just what they were offering.
[/QUOTE]I Agree with U Taebot,We all shoud be open minded.BUt it's easier said than done.

Top
#118415 - 01/21/03 06:31 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Jeniko Offline
Member

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 126
Loc: England
[QUOTE]Let Me clarify, I am talking about sport tkd.But in the real world,Most fights will be close.To close for a high kick.& where as one technique might coz dizziness.A Kick to the Knee,& U disable the agressor.Why? So he wont try it again. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] PS NO INSULT WAS INTENDED. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]

I'd completely agree with you that a short fast kick to the legs are a good tactic, i was once in a fight at school and i used a high kick.

But also i think that i and many others would prefer to have the ability to kick high and not need it than that need the ability to kick high and not have it. Leaving option is avalible to you if the oppertunity presents itself.

Top
#118416 - 01/21/03 07:18 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by taebot:
PS - At our TKD school we train with the groin and now account for it in doing forms...

Based on my open-minded attitude towards learning from other styles and seeing without prejudice just what they were offering.
[/QUOTE]I Agree,If The student,Does a kick to the groin in kata,He'll Use in a slfdefense situation.& Ur right,We shld all be open minded.

Top
#118417 - 01/22/03 09:46 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by taebot:
PS - At our TKD school we train with the groin and now account for it in doing forms...

Based on my open-minded attitude towards learning from other styles and seeing without prejudice just what they were offering.
[/QUOTE] I Agree, We all shld be open minded,But we all so need to be practicle. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118418 - 01/23/03 03:32 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
Contrary to popular belief, the ITF forms feature few kicks. I've often mused on the parcity of kicking techniques in the forms for a "kicking" art. If one takes self-defense from kata, then the TKD practitioner is more likely to PUNCH someone than to kick them.

In fact, up until some of the advanced black belt forms, I'd say the ratio of kicks in the Shotokan that I've studied is pretty much the same for the TKD.

Just a point for you to consider.

Off traveling.

See ya'll next week.

Keep your kicks up!

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118419 - 01/24/03 02:29 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by taebot:
PS - At our TKD school we train with the groin and now account for it in doing forms...

Based on my open-minded attitude towards learning from other styles and seeing without prejudice just what they were offering.
[/QUOTE]Alright,Im gonna be open minded.But,Im also gonna be practicle. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118420 - 01/28/03 10:24 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Mr.Binx Offline
Stranger

Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 2
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas U.S.A.
In response to the original question posted, I believe the reason that high kicks were incorporated into Tae Kwon Do were for takedowns (uneducated guess). When I was training in full-contact Kyutusu Budo, one of my co-students was an experienced TKD practioner. While free-form sparring, he would occasionally switch into a high-legged crane stance at the end of a combination offense when the opponent's offense was lowered for a leg/foot shot to the head. For the most part, if he ever switched into a TKD stance most of his kicks were to the legs and/or midsection unless he was attempting a finishing strike to the head. On a sidenote, he was almost always guaranteed a kick in the nuts whenever he missed his window on a head strike. Hurt just to watch. >_<

-Mr.Binx

"I think therefore I think I am."

Top
#118421 - 01/29/03 04:27 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
Good grief...

How can you claim experience for one who would, like the Karate Kid, assume a stance of any sort in free-form sparring?

Now when my favorite kumite instructor is absolutely dominating an opponent in competition, he will assume all sorts of stances [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] ! He even has a cartwheel kick that he uses to humiliate those he doesn't respect.

I think you may have had a TKD guy experienced with all sorts of, let us say, less than adequate instruction or, ahem, experience...

Top
#118422 - 01/31/03 08:20 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jeniko:
I'd completely agree with you that a short fast kick to the legs are a good tactic, i was once in a fight at school and i used a high kick.

But also i think that i and many others would prefer to have the ability to kick high and not need it than that need the ability to kick high and not have it. Leaving option is avalible to you if the oppertunity presents itself.
[/QUOTE]Hi Jeneko,I Like to do a spinning back kick to the head,As I've done many times in the ring.My Spinning back kick, is so fast,It even surprises me.BUt That's, in the ring,But Realisticly u Wld'nt be able to do that on the street.As Most fights will be in close range.So About, 85 percent of the time,You'll be using hand techs.So It wld be rather hard to do a kick to the head. PS Live LOng & Prosper. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118423 - 02/01/03 07:50 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
benphillips Offline
Stranger

Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 2
Loc: huntsville, al, usa
This is a great topic. I trained under a very strong and angry man for about a

year in tae kwon do. I very much respect the high kick due to his devastating

power and accuracy, as well as being eventually able to dish it out myself (of

course still got absolutely by the instructor and anyone who'd taken the course

for longer than myself.)

But I must say, I've learned the high kick is for show if you're fighting against

someone willing to be dirty, ie knee & groin kicks, takedowns, etc.

If someone is totally untrained against a skilled head-kicker, then surely that

art is quite valid. In particular, inside ax-kicks (during the clinch, for

example) can surprise the heck out of even very skilled boxers & other people not

being used to being kicked in the head (my instructor could do this to me at

will). We trained full-contact.

Problem is, my instructor would have been even nastier had he been kicking my

knees or groin. His ability to kick me in the head was due to the fact that he

was so superior to me in strength and skill.

If I were to pit myself against someone of roughly equal skill who trained only in

tae kwon do, I think I would destroy them. I've seen pretty much every kick in

the book, and can block pretty well. In addition to what other people have said

about blocking head kicks, simply getting over one's fear and natural instinct to

back up, if you move in before the strike hits, it renders the kick usually

ineffefective.

Watch UFC, any or all of them. See how the karate and TKD people fare. We're

talking a close approximation of a one-on-one street fight. In particular, look

for how many head-kicks ever land or make a difference. The only head-kicks I've

EVER seen work are when the person is already on their knees.

One last thing. Someone mentioned a foe dying from head-wounds from a head kick.

Killing someone is not on my list of things I want to do in the near future, both

for guilt and going to jail. Popping someone's elbow in a lock or simply giving

them a quick hooking uppercut can often end the fight without anyone dying.

Obviously, I also mean no disrespect. I'm sure most of you could whoop me fairly

easily. however, my defense is that you could have done it even easier had you

resorted to well-placed low kicks and grappling.

-Ben

Top
#118424 - 02/02/03 12:02 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
SaNo Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 44
Loc: Singapore
Most martial artist can tell u that a kick, if properly train, can generate 3 times more power than a punch. Well, 3 times more power to a critical spot sounds nice doesn't it.

I feel a rising kick to the chin is a good way to leave someone with alot of broken teeth, 'cause i was kicked before, and it cant be seen easily in midrange. Our eyes could see a hell lot from the left to the right(periperal vision), but we cant see up and down.

Btw, no offense meant, isshinryu kid, could u do high kicks? i mean if u can do them, u'd probably understand.

Top
#118425 - 02/02/03 03:55 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SaNo:
Most martial artist can tell u that a kick, if properly train, can generate 3 times more power than a punch. Well, 3 times more power to a critical spot sounds nice doesn't it.

I feel a rising kick to the chin is a good way to leave someone with alot of broken teeth, 'cause i was kicked before, and it cant be seen easily in midrange. Our eyes could see a hell lot from the left to the right(periperal vision), but we cant see up and down.

Btw, no offense meant, isshinryu kid, could u do high kicks? i mean if u can do them, u'd probably understand.
[/QUOTE]I CAn do high kicks,But that's in the ring.In Real life most fights willo be to close for high kicks.& Only someone from a waterd down style
wld try something so impractical. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] PS If u KIck high,& I kick low you'll be the one: singing soprano. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118426 - 02/03/03 08:54 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
SaNo Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 44
Loc: Singapore
[QUOTE]Originally posted by isshinryu kid:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SaNo:
Most martial artist can tell u that a kick, if properly train, can generate 3 times more power than a punch. Well, 3 times more power to a critical spot sounds nice doesn't it.

I feel a rising kick to the chin is a good way to leave someone with alot of broken teeth, 'cause i was kicked before, and it cant be seen easily in midrange. Our eyes could see a hell lot from the left to the right(periperal vision), but we cant see up and down.

Btw, no offense meant, isshinryu kid, could u do high kicks? i mean if u can do them, u'd probably understand.
[/QUOTE]I CAn do high kicks,But that's in the ring.In Real life most fights willo be to close for high kicks.& Only someone from a waterd down style
wld try something so impractical. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] PS If u KIck high,& I kick low you'll be the one: singing soprano. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]

But its possible to block tt kick if u have both your hands in a cross block before u execute that kick no?

Top
#118427 - 02/03/03 09:51 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SaNo:
But its possible to block tt kick if u have both your hands in a cross block before u execute that kick no?[/QUOTE]If I Did a hook kick, There wld be no way, for U to stop it from going to the groin. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118428 - 02/03/03 04:24 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]OK Now,Lets talk about slfdefence & leave kumite out of it.Coz there's no way in the world that any kumite tech will help u,Unless ur adversary is a moron.So Lets keep it real,& talk about real techs.I am talking about dirty/nasty techs. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118429 - 02/03/03 09:03 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
SaNo Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 44
Loc: Singapore
[QUOTE]Originally posted by isshinryu kid:
[QUOTE]OK Now,Lets talk about slfdefence & leave kumite out of it.Coz there's no way in the world that any kumite tech will help u,Unless ur adversary is a moron.So Lets keep it real,& talk about real techs.I am talking about dirty/nasty techs. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

ok, u convinced me, i believe i'd rely on my hands more in a real fight at such distance.

Top
#118430 - 02/03/03 09:25 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SaNo:
ok, u convinced me, i believe i'd rely on my hands more in a real fight at such distance. [/QUOTE]U Still don't understand,Most fights wld be close range,Not at a distance.Although distance training is a must,Be prepared for a close range fight. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118431 - 02/05/03 04:06 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
[/QUOTE]Hi Jeneko,I Like to do a spinning back kick to the head,As I've done many times in the ring.My Spinning back kick, is so fast,It even surprises me.BUt That's, in the ring,But Realisticly u Wld'nt be able to do that on the street.As Most fights will be in close range.So About, 85 percent of the time,You'll be using hand techs.So It wld be rather hard to do a kick to the head. PS Live LOng & Prosper. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

[/QUOTE]

You know that's one statement that has always bugged me over the years, "It wouldn't work on the street." Here's why, follow me on this...

I'm in the ring (or Dojo, Dojang, Kwoon, Gym, whatever) and I'm fighting a highly trained guy who knows I'm trying to knock his happy assets out and I succeed. Then the guy's coach/teacher/buddy/EMT tells me that wouldn't have worked on the street against an unsuspecting assailant who thinks he has the upper hand, a weapon, and the element of surprise...

I'M JUMPING UP AND DOWN AND SCREAMING HERE! Logically, it just doesn't follow...

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118432 - 02/05/03 04:16 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
I'll also add just another aside.

We must have some terrible, terrible, terrible instructors that teach all these thugs all this dirty fighting that's gonna beat the well-trained, honest martial artist.

No, the thugs of the world are the slime of the world and have not the ability or the nature to train at a thing. He's thinking boot to the head just about as much as I am worried about scoring my next vial of crack, if you get my drift...

Top
#118433 - 02/05/03 07:23 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
Calm down Taebot...

You're scaring the kids.... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/eek.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118434 - 02/05/03 08:05 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by taebot:
I'll also add just another aside.

We must have some terrible, terrible, terrible instructors that teach all these thugs all this dirty fighting that's gonna beat the well-trained, honest martial artist.

No, the thugs of the world are the slime of the world and have not the ability or the nature to train at a thing. He's thinking boot to the head just about as much as I am worried about scoring my next vial of crack, if you get my drift...
[/QUOTE]U Hve No Idea wht slf defence is do u?I Sppose if U are ever attacked U Are gonna Fight,U wld rather try to score a point.U Are to sport karate oriented, To know wht slfdefence is.When I Speak of fighting dirty/nasty, Im talknig about slfdefence not kumite.Oh But, U wld rather fight clean in a slfdefence situation.Oops! Sorry U don't Know wht slfdefence is ,Do u teabot. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/tongue.gif[/IMG]



[This message has been edited by isshinryu kid (edited 02-05-2003).]

Top
#118435 - 02/06/03 04:00 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
I was a Marine.
I was a bouncer.
I've worked show and entertainment security for years.
I have scars from knive and razor attacks.
I've had to fight cue-stick wielding drunks.
I have disarmed a young man about to shoot me.
I also have sat waiting for another nut to shoot me, knowing I was going to die, unable to move from the position I was in without ensuring the pull of the trigger.

Now, I'm willing and ready to admit that I know less than you about self-defense.

I'll give you that one.

To write me off as inexperienced and maybe naÔve may be an act of naÔvevity itself.

That overconfidence is what will allow you, and my hypothetical thug to get taken to the cleaners every time. You limit the possibilities. You confine the spirit. You handicap the athlete. You disarm the warrior. Does the name McClellen mean anything to you?

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118436 - 02/06/03 04:01 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
I thought you were keeping an open mind...

Top
#118437 - 02/06/03 04:06 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
IK - What did you edit that post for?

Content?

It wasn't grammar...

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Personal attacks are a worthwhile debate tool. Wouldn't you say? Discredit the person, smear them, say something really nasty and funny and thus you discredit the argument. Nice. Neat. Kudos, sir...

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

WELL DONE!

Made me look bad!

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118438 - 02/06/03 07:26 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by taebot:
IK - What did you edit that post for?

Content?

It wasn't grammar...

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Personal attacks are a worthwhile debate tool. Wouldn't you say? Discredit the person, smear them, say something really nasty and funny and thus you discredit the argument. Nice. Neat. Kudos, sir...

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

WELL DONE!

Made me look bad!

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]Well, That Was a good put down,Now I don't know wht to say. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118439 - 02/07/03 05:47 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
You could say almost anything that sounded remotely like I'm sorry.

But Red Green has it wrong. The hardest thing for men to say is not, "I don't know," but, "I was wrong, I will endeavor to keep my kicks above the belt since this is just sparring and not a life-or-death street self-defense situation and I can discuss my preferences without feeling that my expertise is being impuned..."

And I thought I had laid the groundwork for a decent dialog by first establishing some of my admiration for some of the finer points of Issynryu. Shall we try again?

Top
#118440 - 02/07/03 10:12 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by taebot:
You could say almost anything that sounded remotely like I'm sorry.

But Red Green has it wrong. The hardest thing for men to say is not, "I don't know," but, "I was wrong, I will endeavor to keep my kicks above the belt since this is just sparring and not a life-or-death street self-defense situation and I can discuss my preferences without feeling that my expertise is being impuned..."

And I thought I had laid the groundwork for a decent dialog by first establishing some of my admiration for some of the finer points of Issynryu. Shall we try again?
[/QUOTE]Alright I apologize,I'll Try not to take it personal,Im Ready to try it again. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by isshinryu kid (edited 02-07-2003).]

[This message has been edited by isshinryu kid (edited 02-07-2003).]

Top
#118441 - 02/08/03 06:02 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
Fantastic. You know, sometimes a conversation is just like our martial world...

You just don't respect a guy until you've been in the ring and thrown some feet...er, uh, punches [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] , and gotten to know each other just a little better!

Top
#118442 - 02/10/03 11:07 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by taebot:
Fantastic. You know, sometimes a conversation is just like our martial world...

You just don't respect a guy until you've been in the ring and thrown some feet...er, uh, punches [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] , and gotten to know each other just a little better!
[/QUOTE]That's True,Onetime I was teaching a class,& I Told one of my students,to teach someone a kata.HE Said no,He had better things to do,I Told him to go,& get his gear.So we got into the ring,& I Beat the living daylights out of him.After that was over,It Was yes sensei,I'll Do that sensei.& It just so happen to be,That the person that was giving me,Such a smart mouth was my nephew. PS I Just like family reunoins. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118443 - 02/10/03 12:36 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
That's funny!

Harrison sensei always said most people couldn't tell fear from respect and that respect could, indeed, flow from fear!

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118444 - 02/12/03 01:59 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by taebot:
That's funny!

Harrison sensei always said most people couldn't tell fear from respect and that respect could, indeed, flow from fear!

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]Easier Said than done, Some Would say,But I Agree with your comment. PS Happy Training. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118445 - 02/12/03 09:38 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
SaNo Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 44
Loc: Singapore
ya, i agree with you guys, i usually dont give a person that kinda respect until he proves he's capable.

Top
#118446 - 02/13/03 04:45 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
Respect - remember the good 'ol days when you were young, green, and respected everyone with a belt, especially a black belt, especially an oriental with a black belt. Man, I used to put those guys at the top of a summit. Now I'm like that famous Missouri mule, "Show me!"

I'm getting soooooooo cynical in my old age.

Top
#118447 - 02/13/03 10:00 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
SaNo Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 44
Loc: Singapore
haha, well singapore tkd sucks, black belts flood the street here. I'm only a brown belt now actually, but there are just so many black belts around that i can respect. Ah~ what a job commercialisation has done to tkd here.

Top
#118448 - 02/13/03 10:35 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SaNo:
haha, well singapore tkd sucks, black belts flood the street here. I'm only a brown belt now actually, but there are just so many black belts around that i can respect. Ah~ what a job commercialisation has done to tkd here.[/QUOTE]We'll,I Respect,Those who have been in the martial arts,For about 30 or 40 yrs. PS I Could learn alot from the old timers.

Top
#118449 - 02/13/03 02:45 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Bash Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/12/03
Posts: 14
Loc: Cheshire, UK
As an Aikido practitioner (I've never taken a lesson of TKD in my life), I have seen countless threads on "This won't work on the street because of X" or whatever, and 90% of them are the over-confident babblings of the internet martial arts masters. A lot of the time these will degrade into frustration and then personal abuse. Almost always some smart arse will ask "Why aren't there any Aikido practitioners in the UFC then?", with the idea that he is asking something new firmly cemented in his head...
For this reason I normally steer clear of threads such as these because of their circular nature. Anyway I'm waffling, all I really wanted to say was that Taebot, your attitude was a refreshing, your points well made, your experience geniune (I mean not just re-using ideas that you've picked up on the internet), and I'm sure you are a credit to your art.

Top
#118450 - 02/14/03 06:03 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bash:
As an Aikido practitioner (I've never taken a lesson of TKD in my life), I have seen countless threads on "This won't work on the street because of X" or whatever, and 90% of them are the over-confident babblings of the internet martial arts masters. A lot of the time these will degrade into frustration and then personal abuse. Almost always some smart arse will ask "Why aren't there any Aikido practitioners in the UFC then?", with the idea that he is asking something new firmly cemented in his head...
For this reason I normally steer clear of threads such as these because of their circular nature. Anyway I'm waffling, all I really wanted to say was that Taebot, your attitude was a refreshing, your points well made, your experience geniune (I mean not just re-using ideas that you've picked up on the internet), and I'm sure you are a credit to your art.
[/QUOTE]If You ARe,Talking about sport tkd,I woul hav to agree with you.But If you are,Talking about traditional tkd,I Will disagree with you. Bash,try not to stir things up,& Try to keep an open mind.I Have spoken with taebot,& I can tell you this he is more than a tkd practitioner,& My money is on him. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118451 - 02/14/03 06:35 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
Wow Bash, thank you. I am humbled.

Top
#118452 - 02/14/03 10:38 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
so ishin tai crap do huh? hmmmmmm. well let me tell you, as a practitoner of tkd as well as other styles, ive been in many street fights. ive had knifes pulled on me ive fought real martial artist. ive been wrestled ive been fought by karateka as well as tkd and even some kung fu all in real fights. now for the record ive been in around 20-25 street fights. i havent lost a single one and the reason why is i dont throw techniques out the window because they all work some time

Top
#118453 - 02/14/03 12:53 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
so ishin tai crap do huh? hmmmmmm. well let me tell you, as a practitoner of tkd as well as other styles, ive been in many street fights. ive had knifes pulled on me ive fought real martial artist. ive been wrestled ive been fought by karateka as well as tkd and even some kung fu all in real fights. now for the record ive been in around 20-25 street fights. i havent lost a single one and the reason why is i dont throw techniques out the window because they all work some time[/QUOTE]Hey Chenny,If You are from a sport tkd,The story u are telling me is a lie.Nobody Estimates,how many street fights they've been in.I've been in around 20-25 fights.When you said that,You Reminded me of my nephew,Who is 6 yrs old,Who says to his friend,My dad can whip ur dad. Before I even bacame a student,I was fight on the street. Gee,How many street fights do you think I was in? All I ever did was fight dirty,Mabe u can tell me Wht u have done, in one of ur 20 or 25 fights that u were in,& Mabe we can talk about it. PS If Not, I'll know for sure that ur a lier.I Have nothing against you,But If u make these claims,While sounding like a little boy,U Will need something for proof.& Just,To let u know,I am A certified instructor,& I'LL know if u are telling me A Lie or not. PS No Insult was intended.

Top
#118454 - 02/14/03 04:20 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
See, I don't believe in calling someone a liar or confronting a claim directly because it personalizes the argument in an attack the messenger, not the message format. Nor do I believe that credentials win the day in discourse.

The thing that matters, in conversation, as well as our practice is repetition, specifically, consistent repetition. In short, establish a style of conversation that exhausts every clever strategism that you can employ in making your point clearly.

In that manner you develop your mechanics and ability to think and learn. And that improves you as a martial artist.

Truth, when logicaly applied will indirectly expose the lie and allow it's possesor a graceful manner in which to discard the lie.

But in this case, I think what we have is a long-winded, "In my humble opinion," and not an attempt to establish overwhelming experience which none of us probably have.

Just some experience which we come to share.

...

and swap lies and pull each other's fingers [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] !

Top
#118455 - 02/14/03 06:55 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by taebot:
See, I don't believe in calling someone a liar or confronting a claim directly because it personalizes the argument in an attack the messenger, not the message format. Nor do I believe that credentials win the day in discourse.

The thing that matters, in conversation, as well as our practice is repetition, specifically, consistent repetition. In short, establish a style of conversation that exhausts every clever strategism that you can employ in making your point clearly.

In that manner you develop your mechanics and ability to think and learn. And that improves you as a martial artist.

Truth, when logicaly applied will indirectly expose the lie and allow it's possesor a graceful manner in which to discard the lie.

But in this case, I think what we have is a long-winded, "In my humble opinion," and not an attempt to establish overwhelming experience which none of us probably have.

Just some experience which we come to share.

...

and swap lies and pull each other's fingers [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] !
[/QUOTE]I Agree,Lets share each others experiences,But HE attacked me first,I Don't know why I Did'nt say anything, Wrong.He Is taking it personal,& He attacked me. PS But If anyone,Says I've had20 to 25 fights On The street. & Does'nt tell me about wht happend during his/her experiences,Then Wht should I Think? PS Teabot,Ur An instructor,At least I assume U are.& U know,That If u want to know if a tech works,U Try it out.So Just saying,I've Been in so many fights & Then not tell me about is suspect/questionable.
[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118456 - 02/15/03 05:20 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
edited to remove double post

[This message has been edited by taebot (edited 02-15-2003).]

Top
#118457 - 02/15/03 05:21 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
[QUOTE]Originally posted by taebot:
It doesn't matter who attacked who first and the best way to win points in debate and freinds in life is to deflect and withstand attack and bearing home on the issue at hand.

On a second note, if one's thoughts are to be taken seriously, then one should be able to express them properly. If you speak like a rustic to your audience, you will be seen as a rube, I guarantee you. When you post like you just did, you undermine the very credibility to which you claim.

It is my conjecture that one can prove ones self to be a teacher without ever having to explicitly say, "I am a teacher."

Teachers are patient and take a near view of distanced things and a distanced view of near things. To teach by example, the unspoken lesson.

...

I was showing off my flexibility, running off at the mouth, and looked down for some silly reason...

Gave myself a shiner!

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Them high kicks is dangerous things hooooooo boy, guuuuuuuaaaaarrrrnnnnnnnnntttteeeeee!!!!!
[/QUOTE]


...

Whoops! Sorry, pushed quote, not edit. I simply must get glasses!

While, I'm here IK, one further point; If one wishes to violate the English language, it should be violated in the appropriate manner [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] !



[This message has been edited by taebot (edited 02-15-2003).]

Top
#118458 - 02/15/03 09:18 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by taebot:

...

Whoops! Sorry, pushed quote, not edit. I simply must get glasses!

While, I'm here IK, one further point; If one wishes to violate the English language, it should be violated in the appropriate manner [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] !

[This message has been edited by taebot (edited 02-15-2003).]
[/QUOTE]I JUst wanna Talk about self defense.

Top
#118459 - 02/16/03 05:08 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
So do I.

That's one of the things I learned from Dr. George Thompson and that was verbal judo. Controlling the situation. Wouldn't that be step one in a self-defense situation? The set-up, when possible, before the blows.

See, you met an attack (strategy one - Ken no Sen) with attack. I would have met attack with Tai no Sen (sense attack, retreat, attack) and drawn out my opponent. Encourage him to talk. Wait for an inconsistency, then attack quietly and firmly with questions designed to allow my opponent to look the fool.

And, one of the first things I learned on the business end of running a school: Talking bad about (or to) someone never makes you look better or righter [how's that for a murder of English?].

If you approach discussions with the same attitude as you approach self-defense, sparring, or kata, then we will have better discussions and garner more pleasure.

And we can be just as mean and nasty as we want.

[This message has been edited by taebot (edited 02-16-2003).]

[This message has been edited by taebot (edited 02-16-2003).]

Note - poor typing skills leads too many edits!

[This message has been edited by taebot (edited 02-16-2003).]

Top
#118460 - 02/16/03 05:15 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
Here's a great example! I know it's fiction, but it's great fiction and even better cinema, but the lesson is true!

Do you admire a Brute? A thug? A stone-cold Neanderthal?

Probably not.

But consider William Wallace as he confronts the Princess of Wales with the terrible deeds of Eduard, old Longshanks...

The King's man Hamilton, having measure of the situation openly tells the Princess in Latin, a tongue only known to the educated, not to the mindless barbarians of the world, "He's a bloody savage and he telling lies."

Wallace cuts him, and his credibility to shreds (while dually establishing his own) by retorting in Latin, "I never lie!"

"But I AM a savage!"

Now, you HAVE to respect that in a man. The educated warrior. The worthy opponent.

The lesson Musashi tries to so simply and eloquently impart to us.

I've really enjoyed this. Thank you IK!

Top
#118461 - 02/16/03 05:18 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
And that's why high kicks to the head work!

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118462 - 02/16/03 08:41 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by taebot:
Here's a great example! I know it's fiction, but it's great fiction and even better cinema, but the lesson is true!

Do you admire a Brute? A thug? A stone-cold Neanderthal?

Probably not.

But consider William Wallace as he confronts the Princess of Wales with the terrible deeds of Eduard, old Longshanks...

The King's man Hamilton, having measure of the situation openly tells the Princess in Latin, a tongue only known to the educated, not to the mindless barbarians of the world, "He's a bloody savage and he telling lies."

Wallace cuts him, and his credibility to shreds (while dually establishing his own) by retorting in Latin, "I never lie!"

"But I AM a savage!"

Now, you HAVE to respect that in a man. The educated warrior. The worthy opponent.

The lesson Musashi tries to so simply and eloquently impart to us.

I've really enjoyed this. Thank you IK!
[/QUOTE]It's True,You Must respect your enemy in order to live.But If a person were to use a knife,& I take it away,The Respect I Had for my adversary is gone.Why is that?You May ask,Because I am In control that's why.The Respect for your adversary can only go so far,As Having respect for your foe,Keeps us from being over confident.But Once the situation is taken care of,You Must not give your foe an inch of respect,Or The situation could change with in second. PS That'sWhy I do LOw kicks. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118463 - 02/16/03 01:47 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
bakjulbulkool Offline
Stranger

Registered: 02/15/03
Posts: 4
i just found this site and have read some of the views posted, and i want to try to answer ik's original question, but first i would like to say that ik makes it rather obvious that he doesn't know what tkd is all about.

i do practice sport tkd and in those situations being able to execute a blow to the head is a very useful tool to have. it is also illegal to kick to the goin in sport tkd (although it still happens quite often).

but in self defense conditions it would seem that a high kick is impractical to throw. but if you were a practitioner of tkd then you would know that we are also taught techniques called 1-step sparring. 1-steps are self defense techniques which utilize pressure points, arm bars, throws, sweeps, punches, and kicks. in short, an effective take down. 1-steps in tkd are as practiced as often as a poomse or a breaking technique, and in my school we are required to know so many of these, along with poomses, breaking techniques, and freesparring techniques to be moved to the next rank. our self defense teachings are not limited to unarmed attacks either. we learn and practice with mock attackers using fake guns and knives. we also learn how to subdue an attacker wether they are punching, kicking, choking, ect. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

back to sport tkd, in most organized tournaments there are two types of sparring to choose from, point sparring and olympic style sparring. in a point match,aside from a mouthpiece and cup, foot protection, head gear, and gloves are worn, and the goal is to score the most points by striking the chest or head region with the use of the fist or foot. once a point is made the match is stopped the point is voted on by judges and the match is restarted. control is also greatly emphasized in point sparring. in olympic style sparring the match is not stopped until such round is over,punches to the head are illegal and can cause deductions. outside protective gear includes a chest protector, shin and instep pads, forearm pads, and head gear. also to score points in this style it is required that the competitors strike with much more force than in point sparring.
i think it IS also important to say that a well taught tkd student would not engage a fight by beginning with a high kick, but with combinations that might lead or create an opening for a well timed kick to the head.

and by the way, the meaning of tae kwon do is "The way of the HAND AND FOOT."
[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by bakjulbulkool (edited 02-16-2003).]

[This message has been edited by bakjulbulkool (edited 02-16-2003).]

Top
#118464 - 02/16/03 07:05 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bakjulbulkool:
i just found this site and have read some of the views posted, and i want to try to answer ik's original question, but first i would like to say that ik makes it rather obvious that he doesn't know what tkd is all about.

i do practice sport tkd and in those situations being able to execute a blow to the head is a very useful tool to have. it is also illegal to kick to the goin in sport tkd (although it still happens quite often).

but in self defense conditions it would seem that a high kick is impractical to throw. but if you were a practitioner of tkd then you would know that we are also taught techniques called 1-step sparring. 1-steps are self defense techniques which utilize pressure points, arm bars, throws, sweeps, punches, and kicks. in short, an effective take down. 1-steps in tkd are as practiced as often as a poomse or a breaking technique, and in my school we are required to know so many of these, along with poomses, breaking techniques, and freesparring techniques to be moved to the next rank. our self defense teachings are not limited to unarmed attacks either. we learn and practice with mock attackers using fake guns and knives. we also learn how to subdue an attacker wether they are punching, kicking, choking, ect. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

back to sport tkd, in most organized tournaments there are two types of sparring to choose from, point sparring and olympic style sparring. in a point match,aside from a mouthpiece and cup, foot protection, head gear, and gloves are worn, and the goal is to score the most points by striking the chest or head region with the use of the fist or foot. once a point is made the match is stopped the point is voted on by judges and the match is restarted. control is also greatly emphasized in point sparring. in olympic style sparring the match is not stopped until such round is over,punches to the head are illegal and can cause deductions. outside protective gear includes a chest protector, shin and instep pads, forearm pads, and head gear. also to score points in this style it is required that the competitors strike with much more force than in point sparring.
i think it IS also important to say that a well taught tkd student would not engage a fight by beginning with a high kick, but with combinations that might lead or create an opening for a well timed kick to the head.

and by the way, the meaning of tae kwon do is "The way of the HAND AND FOOT."
[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by bakjulbulkool (edited 02-16-2003).]

[This message has been edited by bakjulbulkool (edited 02-16-2003).]
[/QUOTE]Hey Bakjul,In Isshinryu the groin is a legal target.The Head,Ribs,Chest,& Face area,As well as the groin,& STomach,Are all 1 point strikes.& Those of us in isshinryu work on breathing excercises.That Includes the sanchin kata,Which means 3 conflicts.It Helps with the muscel & breath control,As It aids the mind body relationship,& It will take many yrs to master.We make the attacks more realist,So we can get the feel of how it would be in a real situaiton.We Start of from 50% Hands,& 50% Ft,To 85% Hands & 15% FtOr Distancing.& Yes,We work on pressure points,& The Basic techs,Or the bunkai/application from the kata/forms.& We work,on snap kicks,& The verticle punches,That snaps back,Or retreats,So It can not be grabbed,& Still the one that is punching still has the advantage.The Isshinryu stances, Are Short & natural,& Will help to move swiftly & With much power.Although Can be move to a deep stance if need be,depending on the situation.We Work on evasion/parry /SIdestep,IN Other Words If your out of the danger zone you wont get hurt,At the sametime when he is open,You Should strike when the opprotunity presents itself.We also work on breaking & Teach the black belts the body dynamics.PS The body also has to learn [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] Working on grappling is important.But I ALso agree,that you should do combos.The Combo to use,Would be to deliver a series, Of strikes to the body,As well as the face.Why?Because 85% of the time it well be from close range.Yeah & always make sure that you have rapid punches,& Rapid low kicks. PS Better Safe Than Sorry. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]What ALso helps is when the offense is the same as your defense.For Example,The Block is a strike,The sweep is actully a kick,& SO on.Oh I FOrgot,to tell you that I Punch the makiwara/punching board everyday. PS Except its been raining to hard for that lately.But Tomorrow,It's ! hour on the makiwara.The kata/forms,Are Seisan, Seiuchin, Nahanchin,Wansu,Chinto,Kusanku,Sunsu,Sanchin.PS The Reason, I Like Traditional tkd,& Not sport tkd,Is because Iam traditional.Although I like Kumite,The Most Important Of karate is kihon/basics,Or Bunkai/applications of kata. PS If It Works don't fix it. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118465 - 02/17/03 03:51 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
[QUOTE]Originally posted by isshinryu kid:
It's True,You Must respect your enemy in order to live.But If a person were to use a knife,& I take it away,The Respect I Had for my adversary is gone.Why is that?You May ask,Because I am In control that's why.The Respect for your adversary can only go so far,As Having respect for your foe,Keeps us from being over confident.But Once the situation is taken care of,You Must not give your foe an inch of respect,Or The situation could change with in second. PS That'sWhy I do LOw kicks. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Your respect for the advesary may go, but not compassion or self-respect. Once I take the knife away from my opponent, then legally it is encumbant upon me to keep him/her safe and respect society. To get hung up on a technique is the same as hanging onto a knife. The mugger clings to the knife as firmly as you cling to low kicks.

The balls are a hard target to hit, well-protected, and usually numbed by adrenalin. Getting a knockout there is virtually unheard of. Ask around. I don't know anyone whose done it. Similarly it holds that attacking the legs, the strongest bones and joints on the body isn't exactly what Isshinryu was developed for, being rather an art of subtleties.

No, you watch your boxers. Knockouts usually occur when the fighter's computer gets scared or surprised and the involuntary protection mechanisms kick in to shield the brain from the horrors of massive injury.

Hence a boot to the head is always a higher percentage shot that a boot to the groin...

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118466 - 02/17/03 03:58 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
I used to punch the makiwara...

After many years it occured to me.

Not one doggone silly thing that I've hit in real life is anywhere near as hard as the makiwara*...

But, I can snap one off with a side kick. And IK, mine NEVER, EVER, EVER go to the head...

That's the jump-spin crescent and I use that on karate guys busy trying to kick my snickerdoodles...

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

They just get to focused and forget to guard the thinking head...

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]


* Well there was this one windshield, but in my defense, the guy tried to hit me with his car. He tried to hit me with the car. So once I was on the hood, I took a few good shots at him!!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118467 - 02/17/03 08:40 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by taebot:
Your respect for the advesary may go, but not compassion or self-respect. Once I take the knife away from my opponent, then legally it is encumbant upon me to keep him/her safe and respect society. To get hung up on a technique is the same as hanging onto a knife. The mugger clings to the knife as firmly as you cling to low kicks.

The balls are a hard target to hit, well-protected, and usually numbed by adrenalin. Getting a knockout there is virtually unheard of. Ask around. I don't know anyone whose done it. Similarly it holds that attacking the legs, the strongest bones and joints on the body isn't exactly what Isshinryu was developed for, being rather an art of subtleties.

No, you watch your boxers. Knockouts usually occur when the fighter's computer gets scared or surprised and the involuntary protection mechanisms kick in to shield the brain from the horrors of massive injury.

Hence a boot to the head is always a higher percentage shot that a boot to the groin...

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]This Might Surprise you,But Im Not politcally correct,Why? BEcause You safety is not his concearn.As HE was using a knife,& That tells me,IF Iam not careful he will try to kill me,& The Compassion I Would have for my foe is tuff love.PS You Should'nt, Show any weakness to a person,That Just tried to kill you.BEing politically correct will most certainly get you killed.& The nads are just one target,You HAve other targets,Such As the shin,tibia,Fibula,As well as others to strike depending on the distance.If My foe chokes,OR Grabs my lapel,& He is with in A arms length,It's a kick to the jewels.Or If,Your foe throws a right,Or left hand & overextends his body,The kick would be to the knee,Orlower.Again It depends on the situation,The Distance,Or the posture,of Your foe.& Force,No Matter how powerful does'nt exist,Until it meets resistance,If There,Is no resistance ther can be no force.For Example,When there is a hurricane,Evena brickhouse can be demolished,But A hut in which the okinaiwans live in,Can withstand a typhoon. PS When It's a close range fight do not try to kick to the head. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118468 - 02/17/03 08:44 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Once a marine,Always a marine.PS & I mean that as a compliment [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118469 - 02/17/03 11:10 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
look ishin itsa like this. first off i dont fight for sport. sport is for people who have nothing else to do but try to win medals for their school so there instructor looks good. second what kind of instructor are you to go and call another system crap? i wonder on the validity of your training because if you were a real fighter then you would know that all systems have something to offer. now back to these fights i had mentioned earlier. if i didnt know how to high kick there are at least two that i would not have one and one for sure that i would not have even wlked away from. so i do take my high kicks very seriosly. besides who are you to question the masters? the kicks would not be there if they werent meant to be used for something. it think that you preobably cant use them? maybe not flexible enough? or maybe you just dont have the heart or technique to do so? you see i have never thrown out a technique no matter how uninmportant to me it seemed because in the heat of battle whatever works will work.so keep your low kicks. keep your unopened mind as well,for all the techniques in the world wont save you from that.

Top
#118470 - 02/17/03 12:26 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
bakjulbulkool Offline
Stranger

Registered: 02/15/03
Posts: 4
thank you for that enlighting lesson on isshinryu karate IK. im not going to pretend that i have any in depth knowledge of isshinryu, but from your quick overview of the basic it seems to me that both tae kwon do and isshinyru are somewhat similar. tkd can also use poomse as breathing excercises and to work on muscle control. we also use meditation as a method of breathing control. as for practicing for a real situation that
can depend on how the master chooses to teach his students. at my dojo we also practice with realistic attack scenerios. we begin by learning the basic 1-steps (many of which dont use high kicks,but punches to vital areas, joint locks, pressure points, swift kicks or knees to the stomach and groin, and throws), until the movements become more instintive and can be performed without thought. then the students get some lessons on human anatomy and are taught the vital areas , pressure points, and more painful joint locks. which give the student a higher understanding the techniques and that usually envokes questions like---that punch to the back is actually hitting the kidney? oh, that ridge hand to the neck could make him pass out? so if i kicked the back of this guys knee hard enough it would break?
then when a student can perfom a technique wether being punched, kicked, choked, grabbed, or if a knnife or gun is used, without the initial hesitation of a beginner our master will begin attacking with full force using any type of attack he chooses, and the persoon on defense can do nothing but stay alert and watch his attackers movements. this is also where stance is brought up with more emphasis. we are taught to stand facing our attacker with our feet under our shoulders, slightly bent so that we are ready to move in that split second if need be. we create the false illusion that our attack has a larger target than he actually does. now evasion is brought into the picture. in that stance it becomes an easy thing to quickly and efficiently move right or left, forward or backward, or into a deeper stance. we are also taught to block with force, where to block so that we might hit a pressure point, and to block and grab at the same time which can be very effective on a larger attacker.
for instance if a large male were to take a punch at me with lets say his right hand, i could block(hands open using my forarms),grabbing his arm with my right hand at the same time im blocking, while stepping to his right(in doing this i am escaping the reach of his other hand while making my way behind him). then i can use my left hand and push/strike on the back of his right shoulder, which just adds to his forward momentum from the punch. i can then shift my weight forward adding more to his momentum and send my attacker flying right past me. ~talk about getting some one out of your danger zone [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
(it works to, i did it to a rather surprised master not to long ago, even though he was still able to gain back his momemtum and roll out of it back onto his feet)

we also learn how to apply poomse to self defense and i have been told that behind every move in a poomse/kata there are at least 18 ways to use that particlular move to defend onesself. there are many tkd poomses. we also may choose what and to an extent when we would like to learn weapons katas. the first poomse in tkd includes only low arm blocks, inner forearm blocks, reverse punches, and an emphasis on front and back stances(its called chon-ji). for a student to earn thier 1st dan at my dojo they must know Chon-Ji, Dan-Gun, Do-San, Won-Yo, Yul-Gok, Joong-Gun, Toi-Gye, Hwa-Rang, Tidi-Hil-Il Cho, Choong-Mu, and at least two forms of a weapon of thier choice. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

P.S. i see sparring as a part of tkd, i dont consider what i do to be a sport. i see the fact that we wear pads and make kicks to places like the groin, back, or abdomen illegal in competition as a safety issue, and i dont think it matters wether or not its "traditional". i do competitions because i enjoy them, and i enjoy them more knowing that a respectable opponent is not going to purposely try to strike fullforce in those areas.

and considering that almost nothing on this earth is exactly like it was when it was created how can we define anything to be "traditional" anymore

Top
#118471 - 02/17/03 02:29 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bakjulbulkool:
thank you for that enlighting lesson on isshinryu karate IK. im not going to pretend that i have any in depth knowledge of isshinryu, but from your quick overview of the basic it seems to me that both tae kwon do and isshinyru are somewhat similar. tkd can also use poomse as breathing excercises and to work on muscle control. we also use meditation as a method of breathing control. as for practicing for a real situation that
can depend on how the master chooses to teach his students. at my dojo we also practice with realistic attack scenerios. we begin by learning the basic 1-steps (many of which dont use high kicks,but punches to vital areas, joint locks, pressure points, swift kicks or knees to the stomach and groin, and throws), until the movements become more instintive and can be performed without thought. then the students get some lessons on human anatomy and are taught the vital areas , pressure points, and more painful joint locks. which give the student a higher understanding the techniques and that usually envokes questions like---that punch to the back is actually hitting the kidney? oh, that ridge hand to the neck could make him pass out? so if i kicked the back of this guys knee hard enough it would break?
then when a student can perfom a technique wether being punched, kicked, choked, grabbed, or if a knnife or gun is used, without the initial hesitation of a beginner our master will begin attacking with full force using any type of attack he chooses, and the persoon on defense can do nothing but stay alert and watch his attackers movements. this is also where stance is brought up with more emphasis. we are taught to stand facing our attacker with our feet under our shoulders, slightly bent so that we are ready to move in that split second if need be. we create the false illusion that our attack has a larger target than he actually does. now evasion is brought into the picture. in that stance it becomes an easy thing to quickly and efficiently move right or left, forward or backward, or into a deeper stance. we are also taught to block with force, where to block so that we might hit a pressure point, and to block and grab at the same time which can be very effective on a larger attacker.
for instance if a large male were to take a punch at me with lets say his right hand, i could block(hands open using my forarms),grabbing his arm with my right hand at the same time im blocking, while stepping to his right(in doing this i am escaping the reach of his other hand while making my way behind him). then i can use my left hand and push/strike on the back of his right shoulder, which just adds to his forward momentum from the punch. i can then shift my weight forward adding more to his momentum and send my attacker flying right past me. ~talk about getting some one out of your danger zone [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
(it works to, i did it to a rather surprised master not to long ago, even though he was still able to gain back his momemtum and roll out of it back onto his feet)

we also learn how to apply poomse to self defense and i have been told that behind every move in a poomse/kata there are at least 18 ways to use that particlular move to defend onesself. there are many tkd poomses. we also may choose what and to an extent when we would like to learn weapons katas. the first poomse in tkd includes only low arm blocks, inner forearm blocks, reverse punches, and an emphasis on front and back stances(its called chon-ji). for a student to earn thier 1st dan at my dojo they must know Chon-Ji, Dan-Gun, Do-San, Won-Yo, Yul-Gok, Joong-Gun, Toi-Gye, Hwa-Rang, Tidi-Hil-Il Cho, Choong-Mu, and at least two forms of a weapon of thier choice. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

P.S. i see sparring as a part of tkd, i dont consider what i do to be a sport. i see the fact that we wear pads and make kicks to places like the groin, back, or abdomen illegal in competition as a safety issue, and i dont think it matters wether or not its "traditional". i do competitions because i enjoy them, and i enjoy them more knowing that a respectable opponent is not going to purposely try to strike fullforce in those areas.

and considering that almost nothing on this earth is exactly like it was when it was created how can we define anything to be "traditional" anymore

[/QUOTE]Bakjulbulkool,I Agree that both arts have alot to offer.AS Both, dojos Do About the samething,MOre or less.& You make a verygood point,& How can we difine anything traditional?The Only thing I can think of is,That most Styles of karate,Have evolved so much,That It's hard to tell,What's traditional & What is'nt.& I guess Because of that,Im not opinionated as much as I used to be.I Am learning alot,& the more I learn, The MOre I Change for the better.After What I read A Post from taebot,I ThoughtThere might be somethin to what he,s saying.What Im saying is,Rather It's traditional or not,If It works,Thats whats imprtant.

Top
#118472 - 02/17/03 08:22 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Yawn.

Top
#118473 - 02/17/03 09:27 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jamoni:
Yawn.[/QUOTE]Wow!Jamoni sure had a lot to say.

Top
#118474 - 02/18/03 03:59 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
Hey, IK, I understand and agree with your thoughts on the guy with the knife 100%.

Will the District Attorney?

Not a chance.

I had a buddy who was up at one of the spas in NW Missouri. He was with a date, undressed, and having a bit of fun when three locals came in and took acception to his boisterous play. One thing led to another and he whipped them sans clothing.

When law enforcement arrived, he declined to press charges being a "let-bygones-be-bygones" sort of person. Well, his three attackers pressed charges from the hospital. Who do you think ended up with the Felony Misdemeaner on their record?

Top
#118475 - 02/20/03 04:47 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by taebot:
Hey, IK, I understand and agree with your thoughts on the guy with the knife 100%.

Will the District Attorney?

Not a chance.

I had a buddy who was up at one of the spas in NW Missouri. He was with a date, undressed, and having a bit of fun when three locals came in and took acception to his boisterous play. One thing led to another and he whipped them sans clothing.

When law enforcement arrived, he declined to press charges being a "let-bygones-be-bygones" sort of person. Well, his three attackers pressed charges from the hospital. Who do you think ended up with the Felony Misdemeaner on their record?
[/QUOTE]The Laws,in some states make it hard to defend onself,That even someone with the expreriance of a green belt can sent to prison.But Just the same you must do what you can,in order to survive.& It, would be best for any martial artist,To Leave the seen,As Soon as possible after an altercaiton.PS It's Better to be judged by twelve,Than to be carriad out by six.

Top
#118476 - 02/20/03 05:11 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
In my experience, in my humble experience...

Once you take a knife cleanly from a guy, he tends to calm down (if he's still conscious, DOH!, what am I saying! That's the ultimate calming down [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] !).

Top
#118477 - 02/21/03 12:08 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by taebot:
In my experience, in my humble experience...

Once you take a knife cleanly from a guy, he tends to calm down (if he's still conscious, DOH!, what am I saying! That's the ultimate calming down [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] !).
[/QUOTE]Hahahahlol!I Never thought of it that way.I Ment, To ask you if you know any selfdefense techniques against a pitbull? We,Talkabout using selfdefense against people who attack us,What sould we do if a dangerous animal attacks? PS I Really dont know that much about piotbulls,I Was just using that to start the conersaiton. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118478 - 02/22/03 03:45 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
That's a great point.

That weird feeling half-way through a pasture that the bull is no longer in the SOUTH pasture.

Ever try kicking a pit bull in the snickerdoodles? They're VERY close to the ground [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] !

Top
#118479 - 02/23/03 03:27 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE] I Might have someone else do that for me. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by isshinryu kid (edited 02-24-2003).]

Top
#118480 - 03/13/03 04:54 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
It's True,You Must respect your enemy in order to live.But If a person were to use a knife,& I take it away,The Respect I Had for my adversary is gone.

Someone is confusing fear with respect. As Harrison Sensei points out, the two walk and talk a lot alike...

Top
#118481 - 03/13/03 04:58 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
taebot Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: KANSAS
That's why you shoot the Pit Bull before kicking him in the snickedoodles or head...

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118482 - 06/16/03 06:02 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Karate Dude Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/03
Posts: 438
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
Tkd,A false MA,That's almost 49yrs old,Not 2000 yrs old. It;s impractical,They'er to many kicks,& to many kicks that are waste of motion,& A waste of time if all you're going to do is kick wildly while having your hands the hands out of position. PS But then again, Wushu's just as bad [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118483 - 06/17/03 08:54 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
labRatBioMajor Offline
Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 54
my fellow isshinryu practicioner.

[i did not want this to sound too harsh. just a little strict. please take this with a grain of salt, if you feel you should]:

as i read the many posts, i debated sending this to you. i think it must be said. it sounds like you're trying to pick a fight.

you've said you don't want to insist that one art form is better than another, neither in general nor in a self-defense situation. however, it seems to me this has been your main aim throughout the thread.

please show respect for your fellow martial artists, of whatever opinion, form, or philosophy.

About your question. if only for flexibility's sake, i recommend practicing outside of the range of motion you want to perfect. your control will improve. as you get older, you will be able to preserve your abilities longer. you will have more options.

as far as self-defense goes (as you're not going up and down streets looking for fights), it's all about "viable options." maybe you don't value the technique much. maybe you'd only resort to two or three of your favorite, most comfortable techniques. still, who's to say you cannot learn something from these 'non-isshinryu' techniques?

i've wondered the same thing. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] thanks for posting.
-LK

Top
#118484 - 06/17/03 08:59 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
labRatBioMajor Offline
Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 54
isshinryu kid,

ps: if you were in your dojo-of-choice today, and saw a newcomer, what would you think?

what if that newcomer had a uniform and obi from another art?

what if that newcomer kept interrupting the class to ask the sensei why the techniques you were practicing were so useless?

would you be angry? feel insulted? would you wish he had at least come to a few classes before opening his mouth?

would you have wished he meant it when he bowed in at the beginning of class: i respect myself, this dojo, my fellow students, and the sensei.

would you have wished he had asked the sensei, rather than "why are your techniques useless?", something like "please tell me about the advantages and disadvantages of these techniques" wouldn't it be best, then, if he let the sensei talk as long as he wanted to, then to ask a prodding question, to listen more?

when you ask a question, ask it to learn, not to injure others.

first learn, then think, then criticize, then teach.

-LK
(5th kyu isshinryu)

Top
#118485 - 06/17/03 01:54 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Karate Dude Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/03
Posts: 438
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
Labratbiomajor,I Was certainly not starting a fight,But telling the truth,It's impractical. PS I Dont whish to anger you,But read what it say's on this website. http://ocaladojo.tripod.com/karatedojo/id6.html Sincerly Yours Sensei Rhodes. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118486 - 06/18/03 11:48 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
a kick is a kick....who says you absolutely have to kick high just because you study taekwondo instead of judo, kung fu, or karate?

Top
#118487 - 06/19/03 11:26 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
labRatBioMajor Offline
Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 54
thanks a lot, Sensei-KD.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
-LK

Top
#118488 - 06/26/03 11:04 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Amjdoc Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/26/03
Posts: 8
Loc: Hong Kong
I stood hip to hip with another student and was able to kick him in the face. In competition this might be the difference between gold and silver medals. In a more serious situation it might be the difference between getting knifed in the gut and walking away. If your opponent is a muscle bound monster then you could stand all day kicking and punching the body without having much effect, but the head isnt protected by muscle. A well executed kick to the head will at least stun anyone long enough for you to make your escape. A good punch to the head will do the same but most people expect punches and can put put up some sort of defence against punches, but a good kick will penetrate most defences (legs stronger than arms etc etc) and, in most cases, will be completely unexpected.
Some people here have said that high kicks leave you exposed...you are only exposed if you allow yourself to be exposed. Most people lift their arms when kicking high to maintain balance, at my school the instructors won't hesitate to land a short sharp kick to any unprotected areas. After a few of these you soon learn to maintain your guard. They will also let you finish your exercise before telling you that your guard was down then telling you to repeat the exercise with your guard in place. Bit of a killer when you've just done 65 turning kicks in 30 seconds then having to repeat it with your guard up. Second time around if you dont manage 60 kicks in 30 seconds you're faced with 50 sit ups. Under these conditions it becomes instinctive to keep your guard up so kicking high doesn't necessarily expose you to counter attack, alot depends on the quaity of your instruction. How do you kick high without using your arms for balance? simple, rather than adapting your body shape to suit your balance requirements you simply adapt your balance to suit your required body shape. Again this comes down to the quality of your instructors.

Top
#118489 - 09/27/04 08:39 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Anonymous
Unregistered


issinryu kid i have not read all the posts caose their are too many lol, but all i read is ur first post.

and yes get kicked in the stomanch with a front kick and then get kicked in the face with a front kick i sure know wat 1 would hurt more.

yes high kicks are good, and this is because a head kick can knock some one out or if powerfull enough could possibly kill the person.

and u just hate high kicks because u can do them [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118490 - 11/14/04 10:52 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by isshinryu kid:
[QUOTE]Does tkd have any kicks that are low?& IF SO WHY not use them as well? Don't get me wrong I respect the tkd practitioners.I wont make a war out of who's style is the best.I Just want to know wht happens to the tkd practitioner when he/she gets older & can't kick high anymore. PS My opologies fo tomany questions. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

well if you start at an early age, practice well, and have proper stretching and milk, you can be more flexible

Top
#118491 - 11/14/04 11:20 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by isshinryu kid:
[QUOTE]Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] Well in isshinryu we kick to the groin, which I know is against the rules in taecrapdo.For example,A tkd stylist, came to the dojo,& Wanted to fight someone.Well that someone was me,It was'nt long after we got into the ring,That he tried a high kick. BIG MISTAKE,AS soon as he did that I kicked him in the groin. He Cried like a baby, [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/redface.gif[/IMG]&
Complained to my instructor.As the senoir blts, told him that in isshinryu it was aloud.Any he left crying,& complaining,& Still waering his protective vest.I Gotta tell u waering a vest is for babies.In Isshinryu we protect ourelves with letting out our breath as we're being hit. I Guess some people havta learn the hard way [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]

I've seen this crap story before in one thread and the thread starter got mad at you. you know, if you said that "taecrapdo" thing in front of me, I'll be kicking you in the groin. and Isshinryu Kid, you think your the best martial artist in the world to start a thread in a taekwondo forum to flame on it. you are full of crap and even though tkd doesn't allow kicking in your nuts, it would be useful in street fights. so just stop flaming

Top
#118492 - 11/14/04 11:30 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Swordfish:
IK,

I find your arguments childish and offensive. Does your martial art teach you about respect? Well how about respecting the techniques of other forms of martial arts. I am an instructor of TKD and in saying that, I still do not know everything about my art. I think it is very ignorant of you to rubbish the techniques of TKD as you don't seem to have an understanding of them. And as for calling TKD "tae crapdo" .... well, your credibility on this thread has just gone right out of the window!

And did you ever stop to consider that the TKD practioner that you kicked low was not aware that this was a legal move and therefore was not expecting such a low blow? And to be frank, you should have had more control over your technique so as not to cause great pain to your new opponent.
[/QUOTE]


I agree with you 100% Swordfish!

Top
#118493 - 11/14/04 11:36 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by warrior_james:
issinryu kid i have not read all the posts caose their are too many lol, but all i read is ur first post.

and yes get kicked in the stomanch with a front kick and then get kicked in the face with a front kick i sure know wat 1 would hurt more.

yes high kicks are good, and this is because a head kick can knock some one out or if powerfull enough could possibly kill the person.

and u just hate high kicks because u can do them [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]

That's the best thing I've ever heard you say warrior_james.



[This message has been edited by dane (edited 11-15-2004).]

Top
#118494 - 11/15/04 01:29 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Why are there high kicks in TKD? Because it's an art. If you want to concentrate solely on practical self defense situations I was in a fight once where I nailed the aggressor with a reverse sidekick to the gut and then kicked him in the head with a hook kick. Any questions?

Top
#118495 - 11/19/04 02:33 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MrHate:
Why are there high kicks in TKD? Because it's an art. If you want to concentrate solely on practical self defense situations I was in a fight once where I nailed the aggressor with a reverse sidekick to the gut and then kicked him in the head with a hook kick. Any questions?

[/QUOTE]


Would it not have been safer, and just as effective, to punch him in the gut and elbow him in the head?

Top
#118496 - 11/19/04 09:44 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Anonymous
Unregistered


No, it wouldn't have been safer. The legs are longer than the arms giving me more distance between myself and the agressor. Kicking is what I was trained to do. It all boils down to the indivdual stylist and how they train. Do what suits you best but please, don't try to advise me on what is right for me.

[This message has been edited by MrHate (edited 11-20-2004).]

Top
#118497 - 11/20/04 01:03 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Anonymous
Unregistered


You're right, the legs are longer and you have the advantage of distance. But the potential cost of the kick is also higher. If the attacking limb is intercepted and broken, a broken leg is much worse for your fighting prospects than a broken arm. Furthermore you're a lot more likely to end up on the ground if you're pushed while attemtping the attack.

I'm not telling you what to do. For all I know you could have godly kicks that are much better than your hand techniques. I'm just suggesting alternatives in the spirit of discussion.

Top
#118498 - 11/20/04 08:43 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Anonymous
Unregistered


A midlevel sidekick is probably one of the hardest techniques to stop if the timing and execution are correct. If you throw a punch and I counter with a sidekick you're going to be spitting out ribs. Why would I use a hand technique when the legs are longer and stronger?

Top
#118499 - 11/21/04 01:53 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I don't agree with your assessment of the mid side kick. It's certainly strong, a properly placed rear leg or stepping side kick is a fight ender. But it's not any more difficult to defend than a front kick. Easier, in my opinion, because to put power in the side kick you're going to be rotating your hip into it, while the front kick hip thrust power generation is harder to spot. If you minimize the amount of hip rotation involved by fighting from a 90 degrees sideways posture, then you're making yourself more vulnerable to takedowns.

Not everyone fights with full extension attacks. If I'm punching you, I'm maybe two feet away from you, and I'm either kicking your knee or trying to disrupt your root with my front leg. A good side kick is difficult to pull off in that situation, because of the proximity and because my leg's in the general area interfering.

The legs are stronger and longer, but that's not always an advantage. A 18' pike is a very long and effective weapon ( in formation ), but if your opponent's three feet away from you the pike's utility is pretty limited.

Top
#118500 - 11/21/04 04:03 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Anonymous
Unregistered


All I have to do is take a single step back and you're in optimum range for my rib-shattering sidekick. Like I posted previously, timing and execution are essential. I can throw a sidekick with lightening speed and train my students in the same manner. All situations are different requiring split second assessment and decision making. If I found myself unable to throw a sidekick I might very well throw a punch or elbow.

Top
#118501 - 11/21/04 05:47 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Anonymous
Unregistered


You can take a step back, and I can take a step forward. If I wanted to, I could grapple you and make it difficult for you to take that step back. So essentially, you have two clean shots at that kick, when I'm coming and when the fight is over and one of us is walking away. In the latter case it doesn't really matter because the fight's over. In the former, if I'm advancing and manage to deflect your kick, there's a good chance I can advance and unbalance you before you recover from it. If I manage to put you on the ground, the chances of your survival just got a lot lower, especially if I have mates around. This is the point where we disagree I think. When your life is truly on the line, I don't think that kind of risk is worth taking when you could use lower risk techniques instead.

Top
#118502 - 11/21/04 07:30 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Anonymous
Unregistered


There are all sorts of variables to take into consideration in any altercation. I related a real life experience to illustrate my point that kicking definately has a place in the line of self defense. You can't argue with results, can you? Fact is I dispelled an agressor with a shot to the gut and a follow up to the head. What may or may not happen in any other given situation is mere speculation on either of our parts but I feel fairly certain that I would have similar results in similar circumstances.

Top
#118503 - 11/22/04 10:00 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Anonymous
Unregistered


no one is looking forward to someones foot driving into there face/throught. which brings up the question exactly how tall are u, and did u know that alot of peaple can easily reach over that height with there feet standing?

[This message has been edited by draconous14 (edited 11-23-2004).]

Top
#118504 - 11/22/04 10:11 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by isshinryu kid:
[QUOTE]Plz Don't take this as a insult, But High kicks are a waste of movement. Cause the high'er the kick the more open a person is.Why does anyone need to kick to the head, that won't disable a person, the same way a kick to the knee, would.A Good ol simple kick to knee,& That that will finnish the job. Example If someone starts to harrass ya & then steps forward with the left foot, do you kick them in the head?No of course not,The Targets are the Knee,shin & the arch of the foot.It cld be a straight kick or side kick or cross kick depending on your position. I Mean no insult by this, It's just my opinion.But If Im wrong, plz explain why the high kicks? I Remember tkd practitioner was in the ring with a friend of mine who was from the same dojo as I.Evertime He started to kick high he'd get hit,& he did it again & got kicked in the groin. in Isshinryu karate a kick to the groin is legal,But not in tkd.& this is kumite which should not be compared to self defense.So why has it become more a bout kicking in the head? You should sidestep or parry,Make you blocks strikes.Keep your kicks low so you can be ready if another attack were to happen. Exaggerate the move,if your foe pulls your arm,Don't fight it go with it but faster & give'm a knee.Or do high low combinations,Until the oportunity presents itself. But never kick high in a real fight. PS But Thats just my opinion. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by isshinryu kid (edited 12-21-2002).]
[/QUOTE]
____________________________________________
You kick the head to end the fight. knee shots won't knock anyone out, and have u EVER been kicked in the face. and if so were u standing afterwords(if u know what i mean)

Top
#118505 - 11/22/04 10:18 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by isshinryu kid:
[QUOTE]Does tkd have any kicks that are low?& IF SO WHY not use them as well? Don't get me wrong I respect the tkd practitioners.I wont make a war out of who's style is the best.I Just want to know wht happens to the tkd practitioner when he/she gets older & can't kick high anymore. PS My opologies fo tomany questions. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]
____________________________________________
My TKD instructer is 48 years old and can still jump over me while we're both standing.(and I'm 5'7 1/2!)so it would make sence that he can still kick over my head.
and I don't want to start any MA wars either. I just want to end your ignorance (no offence)

Top
#118506 - 11/22/04 10:28 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think meditation gets in the way of learning slfdfence

[/QUOTE]
____________________________________________
first of all meditation is used to calm the mind, and increase self/enviromental awarness while decreasing stress levels.
second of all (and no offence)but aren't we suposed to be repling to your original question. and aren't u the one who asked that question. Third of all do you even want are advice?

Top
#118507 - 11/22/04 10:54 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by isshinryu kid:
[QUOTE]
I know is against the rules in taecrapdo.
He Cried like a baby, [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/redface.gif[/IMG]& Complained to my instructor
Any he left crying,& complaining,& Still waering his protective vest.I Gotta tell u waering a vest is for babies.In Isshinryu we protect ourelves with letting out our breath as we're being hit. I Guess some people havta learn the hard way [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]

oh honey you do not understand the concept
of we answer u listen. fist of all i won't stand by and have a BF becouse your not getting the answer u want. i refuse to stand by and watch you and your keyboard harass any martial art. second of all that TKD stylist wasn't a stylist he was a *****( a big hairy *****) and again have u EVER been kicked in the face. (guess what I HAVE!!!!!)and it hurt. more than being hit in the balls the 12 times I have been. ( all times of which i have quickly recoperated.) 4 times of which I wasn't wearing a nut cup. (and dude i've been practicing MA for 7 1/2 years i know what I'm talking about.)and i would highly apreciate it if you stopped harassing are advice and listen!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/mad.gif[/IMG] P.S. i mean no disrespect by anything i have said.


[This message has been edited by draconous14 (edited 11-23-2004).]

Top
#118508 - 11/22/04 11:23 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MrHate:
There are all sorts of variables to take into consideration in any altercation. I related a real life experience to illustrate my point that kicking definately has a place in the line of self defense. You can't argue with results, can you? Fact is I dispelled an agressor with a shot to the gut and a follow up to the head. What may or may not happen in any other given situation is mere speculation on either of our parts but I feel fairly certain that I would have similar results in similar circumstances. [/QUOTE]

I acknowledge that your choice of techniqes worked in your particular real life experience. My contention is that those were not the optimal techniques for the situation. There are, as you said, many variables to take into consideration. My point is that you chose a higher risk ( to you ) technique when you could have gone with a lower risk tech and accomplished much the same goals. There might not be a second chance in self defense, and the potential cost of losing is your life. Why take any unnecessary risks?

Top
#118509 - 11/22/04 11:29 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]
Originally posted by draconous14:
You kick the head to end the fight. knee shots won't knock anyone out, and have u EVER been kicked in the face. and if so were u standing afterwords(if u know what i mean)

[/QUOTE]

Knockouts are for ring fights. In a realistic self defense situation, anything that makes the opponent no longer willing or able to fight is good. You can't fight effectively with a broken knee, believe me I've tried.

[This message has been edited by KylejustKyle (edited 11-22-2004).]

Top
#118510 - 11/22/04 09:42 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]
I acknowledge that your choice of techniqes worked in your particular real life experience. My contention is that those were not the optimal techniques for the situation. There are, as you said, many variables to take into consideration. My point is that you chose a higher risk ( to you ) technique when you could have gone with a lower risk tech and accomplished much the same goals. There might not be a second chance in self defense, and the potential cost of losing is your life. Why take any unnecessary risks?[/QUOTE]


I've always been taught that the best techniques are the ones that work. In the situation I faced they worked. I recognize what you're saying about kicking being riskier than punching I just disagree. It's rare to dispell someone with a single punch. The kick I landed to his stomach sat up the finish to his head. I would never try a head kick first. Head kicks are finishing moves as was pointed out above. I think it comes down to how well an individual trains. If you don't practice kicks you naturally shouldn't attempt to use them to defend yourself. If the style you train in doesn't emphasize kicks hand techniques or takedowns are definitely the way to go. I respect the methods you choose to train though I may not incorporate them into my own regimen. It just seems to me that you want me to acquiesce that kicks are somehow inferior. I won't because they're not.

Top
#118511 - 11/23/04 03:08 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MrHate:
I've always been taught that the best techniques are the ones that work. In the situation I faced they worked.
[/QUOTE]

That's a really loose definition of best techniques. In certain situations a flying pelvic thrust can work. That doesn't mean it's one of the best techniques.


[QUOTE]
I recognize what you're saying about kicking being riskier than punching I just disagree. It's rare to dispell someone with a single punch. The kick I landed to his stomach sat up the finish to his head. I would never try a head kick first. Head kicks are finishing moves as was pointed out above. I think it comes down to how well an individual trains. If you don't practice kicks you naturally shouldn't attempt to use them to defend yourself. If the style you train in doesn't emphasize kicks hand techniques or takedowns are definitely the way to go. I respect the methods you choose to train though I may not incorporate them into my own regimen.
[/QUOTE]

We'll have to leave it as a difference of opinion over acceptable risks I suppose.


[QUOTE]
It just seems to me that you want me to acquiesce that kicks are somehow inferior. I won't because they're not.
[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't go that far. My position is that high kicks are less optimal than hand techniques in realistic fights. Low kicks work well though.

Top
#118512 - 11/23/04 08:57 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by KylejustKyle:
Knockouts are for ring fights. In a realistic self defense situation, anything that makes the opponent no longer willing or able to fight is good. You can't fight effectively with a broken knee, believe me I've tried.

[This message has been edited by KylejustKyle (edited 11-22-2004).]
[/QUOTE]
____________________________________________
hello kyle,
knockouts are good in all fights however ring matches are the only ones in which they count as points. let me simplify the whole point of all my replys.high kicks should be used but only as a last resort high kicks are in fact excelent for ending the fight without getting to close.high kicks have a time and place to be used that time and place is against a wall with enough room to fully extend your legs or almost fully extend your legs. low kicks should be used more often than high kicks do to the fact that they are harder to block
or counter. however these low kicks should stay lower than right above the knees becouse that is (where i have found)to be the most effective place to hit when in NOT in face hit range. when hitting a person in the balls knee becouse knees are harder to counter and if blocked tends to damage the blocker a little bit more than u. low shots should only be used in close counters where u only have enough room to knee or to hit the knee caps. in other words high only when u have the room. low only when u have the room and don't get close just to get a low shot in instead work with the room u have.
thank you for your wonderful and accurrate info and have a wonderful day.
D14

Top
#118513 - 11/23/04 09:12 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Anonymous
Unregistered


nobody is expecting any one to kick high or low. they are looking forword to a slugfest untill WHAM there opposition's foot drives untill there face, or there kneecap.
in the case of the face hit he probably still dosn't remember what happend nor probably speak. in the case of a knee shot
he probably still can't walk, or if they hit higher he probably still can't reproduce nor will he reproduce for a very very long time. as for show only in demos or for some instutors for motivation for his students kinda like a if u keep studying TKD u can also do this someday.
or if u keep learning TKD u might see me do a triple jumping round house kick to a double flip kick to a catapolting triple flip kick. u know to keep his students coming. also to motivate other peaple into joining there MA school. anyway i hope this reply helps. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Top
#118514 - 11/23/04 09:27 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by isshinryu kid:
in Isshinryu karate a kick to the groin is legal,But not in tkd.& this is kumite which should not be compared to self defense.So why has it become more a bout kicking in the head? You should sidestep or parry,Make you blocks strikes.Keep your kicks low so you can be ready if another attack were to happen. Exaggerate the move,if your foe pulls your arm,Don't fight it go with it but faster & give'm a knee.Or do high low combinations,Until the oportunity presents itself. But never kick high in a real fight. PS But Thats just my opinion. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by isshinryu kid (edited 12-21-2002).][/QUOTE]
____________________________________________
you do have the basic idea but in tae kwon do your just not allowed to kick the balls in the ring. my tkd instructer actually tells us to kick low in a real fight becouse often the fight starts close with a push or a bump or a mistake gesture like an unintented middle finger or an accidental elbow to the side. but he also says to end the fight as quickly as possible, while preventing as many injurys as possible to your opponent.( in other word end the fight while not injuring your opponent to badly.)
he says to hit the main targets which are as followed.
CLOSE(kneeing range)- shin, knees, sides of legs(espesially insides of legs), balls, and akilees heel, and akilees tendons.
CLOSE(kicking range)-gut, solarplexus, chin, jaw, throught, sides of head, under armpits, ribs, and sides.
I hope this reply helps.

Top
#118515 - 11/23/04 02:19 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
goldencrane Offline
Member

Registered: 02/23/04
Posts: 432
Loc: Kansas City Kansas USA
Enough posts on this never ending thread!

Top
Page 1 of 15 1 2 3 ... 14 15 >






Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Stun Guns
Variety of stun gun devices for your protection

Buy Pepper Spray
Worry about your family when you’re not around? Visit us today to protect everything you value.

Koryu.com
Accurate information on the ancient martial traditions of the Japanese samurai

C2 Taser
Protect yourself and loved ones from CRIME with the latest C2 Taser citizen model. Very effective.

 

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga