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#118384 - 01/07/03 03:12 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Moogong Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/06/03
Posts: 24
Loc: West Point, Va United States
[QUOTE]Originally posted by isshinryu kid:
[QUOTE]Hey moogong, I've gotta a story for ya,About 10 yrs ago A tkd stylest came to the dojo.& He wanted to do some sparring,& he did a high kick & got kicked in the groin.& That wuz sparring I'd hate to see wht wld happen on the street.I Remember in 1996 3 Guys going to take advatage this one girl.But this poor defenseless gir kick 3 of them in the groin,& one of them had a tire iron.Which just proves if ya want to disable ur foe,ya kick low. So moogong whtever ya do,Don't do any high kicks in a real fight. PS HAVE A NICE DAY [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] [/QUOTE]


First, not all TKD stylist are created equal. I would never judge a technique bases on one experience or one martial artist that came to your dojo. Secondly, how sad are three aggressors if they cannot take advantage of what you call "poor defenseless girl"?? Especially the one with the tire iron...was he changing a tire at the time? This story sounds false, please provide the news clipping or link to where I can read the details surronding this. They must have been midly retarded to let this girl kick all three of them in the groin. You would think that by the time she got the 3rd guy, he would wise and up guard his crotch.
High kicks, just like any technique, have a time and place in self-defense applications.
Where you believe it or not is up to you. Whatever you do though, don't under estimate any techique.

PS...Thanks for the stories anyway. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#118385 - 01/07/03 04:57 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
As a self defence move, I, in general, would have to go with "avoid it". That said if you think you can get away with it....why not???

It would appear the original post was not answered. Why the high kicks in TKD?

This is partially myth brought about by generation after generation of MA movies. High, jumping and/or spinning kicks look great on screen.

Now back to reality. TKD has high kicks, just as Karate and many other MAs do. It also has mid/low range kicks and sweeps. TKD is known for its devastating kicks full stop, even high ones. They are definately not show.

Where does the powerful high kick develop from? I am told that an early form of TKD was used by the Koreans when the Japanese invaded. As the Japanese warriors tended to be on horseback, a simple way to even the odds was to literally kick them off. How true this I am unsure, but sounds like a feasable notion.

As for kumite these types of kicks are just as valid. It depends a lot on the practitioner and have seen them used to devastating effect in kumite. Like any other technique, they should be used with various combinations.

Budo.

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#118386 - 01/09/03 04:52 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by judderman:
As a self defence move, I, in general, would have to go with "avoid it". That said if you think you can get away with it....why not???

It would appear the original post was not answered. Why the high kicks in TKD?

This is partially myth brought about by generation after generation of MA movies. High, jumping and/or spinning kicks look great on screen.

Now back to reality. TKD has high kicks, just as Karate and many other MAs do. It also has mid/low range kicks and sweeps. TKD is known for its devastating kicks full stop, even high ones. They are definately not show.

Where does the powerful high kick develop from? I am told that an early form of TKD was used by the Koreans when the Japanese invaded. As the Japanese warriors tended to be on horseback, a simple way to even the odds was to literally kick them off. How true this I am unsure, but sounds like a feasable notion.

As for kumite these types of kicks are just as valid. It depends a lot on the practitioner and have seen them used to devastating effect in kumite. Like any other technique, they should be used with various combinations.

Budo.
[/QUOTE]All DO respect.Not All karate styles kick high.For example you've,Shotokan,Gojuryu,shorinryu,Isshinryu & Ed Parkers kenpo,& Not one of these styles kick high. AS it'sa waste of movement,As well as dangerous. & As for kicking someone off of a horse while it's going 40 mph,Well thats another myth As the koreans did'nt do any M/as at that time.& As for using any kumite techniques for slf defense is a BIG MISTAKE. Cuz Kumite techniques are nothing more than alot of waterd down karate.Ya can't disable a person with kumite.In Slf defense the maine goal is to win no matter what the cost.In Other words If his/her Knee is bent it gets kicked,Or the shin, Or the toes,Depending on the distance.So I'd use kumite techniques in the dojo,& Slf defense techniques for the street. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

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#118387 - 01/10/03 05:48 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Moogong Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/06/03
Posts: 24
Loc: West Point, Va United States
[QUOTE]Originally posted by isshinryu kid:
[QUOTE]

Budo.
[/QUOTE]All DO respect.Not All karate styles kick high.For example you've,Shotokan,Gojuryu,shorinryu,Isshinryu & Ed Parkers kenpo,& Not one of these styles kick high. AS it'sa waste of movement,As well as dangerous. & As for kicking someone off of a horse while it's going 40 mph,Well thats another myth As the koreans did'nt do any M/as at that time.& As for using any kumite techniques for slf defense is a BIG MISTAKE. Cuz Kumite techniques are nothing more than alot of waterd down karate.Ya can't disable a person with kumite.In Slf defense the maine goal is to win no matter what the cost.In Other words If his/her Knee is bent it gets kicked,Or the shin, Or the toes,Depending on the distance.So I'd use kumite techniques in the dojo,& Slf defense techniques for the street. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

[/QUOTE]

Here are some pictures of karate stylist kicking high. These are taken from galleries on websites of styles you mentioned.

Shotokan http://www.uniques.com/shotokan/photo.htm

Isshinryu
http://krrichardson.freeservers.com/isshinryu/pics/isshpg15.html

Kenpo
http://www.adventurehiking.com/RichOnLine/Karate/RichCx3.html
http://www.adventurehiking.com/RichOnLine/Karate/RhBhKick.html
http://www.rathdownkenpo.com/images/chlf.JPG

I thought I would throw this one in..

Zashin Kai Karate
http://www.zanshinkai.com/gallery_index.html#


Also, being Korean and having been raised in Korea, I can assure you that Korean soliders dissmounting horseriding enemies is no myth. Thats like me saying the American Civil War didnt involve the use of the bayonet.
Koreans not doing martial arts at the time? I dont know where you get that claim from but I can assure Korea has had martial arts in one form or another for centuries. Just for your martial arts education, you should take a trip to Korea. You would find it very eye opening.

PS..Have a great weekend!

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#118388 - 01/11/03 06:27 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]On the isshinryu website all of what ya had to show me are kick done in kumite. & Kumite & slfdefence are different as night & day. I am A isshinryu stylest,& The kicks are low.The Other websites accept for 1 show kumite kicking techniques.& Most fights on the streets or in the bars are gonna be close in fighting or a brawl. In Other words to close to do a high kick, & to stop a fight from becoming a brawl ya kick low or sweep the guy.Remember a force, no matter how powerful,Does not exist unti it meets resistance.If there is no resitance ther can be no force.The power of karate lies not in the physical technique,But in the philosophy of the technique. PS Have A Nice Day [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

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#118389 - 01/11/03 06:53 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Moogong Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/06/03
Posts: 24
Loc: West Point, Va United States
[QUOTE]Originally posted by isshinryu kid:
[QUOTE]On the isshinryu website all of what ya had to show me are kick done in kumite. & Kumite & slfdefence are different as night & day. I am A isshinryu stylest,& The kicks are low.The Other websites accept for 1 show kumite kicking techniques.& Most fights on the streets or in the bars are gonna be close in fighting or a brawl. In Other words to close to do a high kick, & to stop a fight from becoming a brawl ya kick low or sweep the guy.Remember a force, no matter how powerful,Does not exist unti it meets resistance.If there is no resitance ther can be no force.The power of karate lies not in the physical technique,But in the philosophy of the technique. PS Have A Nice Day [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

What Im responding too Issinryu, is your statement that "Not on of these styles kick high". You're argument of seperation of kumite and self-defense techniques used in karate can equally be applied to that of TKD.
Another myth is that you need lots of distance to do a head level kick. I have see, TKD, Karate, and Kung-Fu stylist do powerful head kicks standing nose to nose with their opponent. It's just a matter of training to get the flexibility and range of motion in the hips.


Oh..your theory of force needing resistance for power is a little off. If you have ever seen an aero-physics display, you will see wonderful examples how matter and speed can manifest their own quick bursts of energy. Take the sonic boom for example [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

PS..Have a nice weekend!

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#118390 - 01/11/03 08:49 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
ok. There seems to be a little confusion.

I have practiced Shotokan for 14 years. I can say unequivocally that Shotokan does and uses high kicks.

Now then, these high kicks and some jumping kicks have been used in kumite. I have watched other styles of kumite and some lightening fast and devastating high kicks have been used.

For an example of how close you can get to high kicks, I direct you to last European Seminar of ITF TKD with the late General Choi in Budapest. Here one of the polish attendants performed a jumping reverse turning kick, to kick a paper cup of the head of another attendee. This was done at a distance of no more than 1 foot away from his opponent. Admittedly this is show, but it is a poiniant show.
As for kumite being "watered down" tequnique, I hope that you are suggesting that the tequniques are "controlled". This is true to an extent. However, when the adrenaline starts pumping, lets see how many "controlled" tequniques are performed. Controlled simply means you don't kill or maim your opponent.

Now for self defence. Generally speaking I would avoid high kicks because they can cause the practitioner to become unstable. Low kicks are more likely to succeed. That said I know of a story for ya. A pub brawl fell out onto the street. A 7th Kyu Karate-ka executed Jodan Mae Geri on his opponent. The opponent unfortunately died lated from the head injuries sustained, not only by the kick, but also the impact of falling.

I would say that was effective.

Now to another statement made. A kick to th head will not diable someone in the same way a kick to the knee will. Being pedantic I would say, obviously, they are different parts of the body. Ask yourself two simple questions:
Where is the body controlled from?
Why do we have punches to the head?

High kicks can work in a given situation, either kumite or street fighting. Like any other technique there is a time and place and probably better ones to perform in the same situation.

So does that answer your original post?

You are slightly off with your "force" idea. There is no way of measuring force with out resistance. This does not mean there is no force. But we're getting into the realms of if a tree fell in an empty wood, would it make a sound?

Budo.

[This message has been edited by judderman (edited 01-11-2003).]

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#118391 - 01/11/03 10:24 AM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
Moogong Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/06/03
Posts: 24
Loc: West Point, Va United States
[QUOTE]Originally posted by judderman:
ok. There seems to be a little confusion.

I have practiced Shotokan for 14 years. I can say unequivocally that Shotokan does and uses high kicks.

Now then, these high kicks and some jumping kicks have been used in kumite. I have watched other styles of kumite and some lightening fast and devastating high kicks have been used.

For an example of how close you can get to high kicks, I direct you to last European Seminar of ITF TKD with the late General Choi in Budapest. Here one of the polish attendants performed a jumping reverse turning kick, to kick a paper cup of the head of another attendee. This was done at a distance of no more than 1 foot away from his opponent. Admittedly this is show, but it is a poiniant show.
As for kumite being "watered down" tequnique, I hope that you are suggesting that the tequniques are "controlled". This is true to an extent. However, when the adrenaline starts pumping, lets see how many "controlled" tequniques are performed. Controlled simply means you don't kill or maim your opponent.

Now for self defence. Generally speaking I would avoid high kicks because they can cause the practitioner to become unstable. Low kicks are more likely to succeed. That said I know of a story for ya. A pub brawl fell out onto the street. A 7th Kyu Karate-ka executed Jodan Mae Geri on his opponent. The opponent unfortunately died lated from the head injuries sustained, not only by the kick, but also the impact of falling.

I would say that was effective.

Now to another statement made. A kick to th head will not diable someone in the same way a kick to the knee will. Being pedantic I would say, obviously, they are different parts of the body. Ask yourself two simple questions:
Where is the body controlled from?
Why do we have punches to the head?

High kicks can work in a given situation, either kumite or street fighting. Like any other technique there is a time and place and probably better ones to perform in the same situation.

So does that answer your original post?

You are slightly off with your "force" idea. There is no way of measuring force with out resistance. This does not mean there is no force. But we're getting into the realms of if a tree fell in an empty wood, would it make a sound?

Budo.

[This message has been edited by judderman (edited 01-11-2003).]
[/QUOTE]


I do agree with what you are saying here. About 2 years ago a green belt, in a movie theather lobby, kicked a aggressor in the head, broke his neck, and is now serving time in jail. It was the wrong technique to use, uncontrolled, but it was effective.

I disagree to not being able to measure force without resistance...both NASA, Aero-space departments, Ford Motor Company..etc...do just that all the time.

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#118392 - 01/13/03 12:43 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE] Ya Never Know about some of these techniques until u use them. & If I ever knock somebody out,I wont be waiting for the cops to come,I'll leave in a hurry.Cuz Where I live the laws are against anyone who uses karate for self defense. I was gonna tell ya something but I forgot,I guess Im getting old. PS Talk to ya later.

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#118393 - 01/13/03 12:45 PM Re: Why Does tkd have high kicks?
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by isshinryu kid:
[QUOTE] Ya Never Know about some of these techniques until u use them. & If I ever knock somebody out,I wont be waiting for the cops to come,I'll leave in a hurry.Cuz Where I live the laws are against anyone who uses karate for self defense. I was gonna tell ya something but I forgot,I guess Im getting old. PS Talk to ya later. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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