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#117043 - 12/10/03 04:12 PM Why does Judo get a bad rep?
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
OK, obviously I am one of the biggest Judo advocates on this forum, but I was just thinking of the bad rep Judo gets. It always seems to pop up somewhere that Judo is a sport. I was just reading a post somewhere else and this stupid debate popped up again. People say things like: "My teacher did Judo but then decided to do a self defense art such as ______." A lot of times I hear that traditional Jujutsu is better than Judo. I will not even touch the "alive" argument in fear of being lynched, but what is the big difference? Is a Judo choke used in sport less effective than a traditional Jujutsu choke? Or even an armbar for that matter? It's a fact that if I keep choking after my opponent taps, he will be out...so why is it always being discredited as "just a sport?" Opinions, comments, agree/disagree? Am I alone on this?

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#117044 - 12/10/03 04:35 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
Judo *is* a sport. That's the whole point. Don't shy away from the "aliveness" label. That's an important part of why judo study can be so valuable. Judo also has a heck of a lot to teach us about self defense, as in, "How do I do things to a strong, determined, well trained opponent that he would rather I didn't do?"

Judo does require some "fine tuning" to be used on the street, but if you are a competent judoka with a good teacher you can do that fine tuning fairly easily.

It doesn't take much for a judo guy to learn some strikes, how to throw and choke without using the gi, and how to be mindful of getting poked in the eyes or kicked in the nards while he is doing it.

I think people bash judo primarily out of ignorance, or to make themselves feel better about not putting in the hard work that judo requires. Some of the toughest "old timers" teaching reality self defense today got their start as judo men.

Kata based arts like traditional jujitsu can be trained as hard as you are willing to train them, and that can be a problem because most people don't want to train all that hard. A competitive (if you're sick of using the "A word") sport forces us to try much harder because we push our opponent further, and he reaches deeper to push back. You both end up driving each other to places only the most determined cooperative training can reach, so even the "loser" wins.

The next time somebody scoffs at judo, ask him to give Gene Lebell a ring. He'll be glad to introduce him to someone who will make a believer out of him, if he doesn't do it personally.



[This message has been edited by the504mikey (edited 12-10-2003).]

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#117045 - 12/10/03 04:51 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I believe ignorance is a big part of it. Your average everyday person does not understand real grappling. They do not understand how damaging throws, locks,chokes,strangles are. To them, self defense is bludgeoning someone unconscious.

I do believe if judoka want to be prepared for self defense, need to work a little on slipping blows.

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#117046 - 12/10/03 07:04 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
Good points...actually Mikey, the reason I joked about the "alive" thing is because there is some heated debates between JKogas & CXT in the martial arts forum about this concept. Nekogami, I completely agree that learning to slip/move/block punches is essential to making Judo more self-defense oriented. I know it's not real fighting, but Yoshida is doing some amazing things in Pride, but if he had better striking skill he would be that much better. Thanks for replying.

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#117047 - 12/11/03 06:55 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
The Judoka's I know are some of the hardest guys be on a mat with.

I've trained in Judo with them and occaisionally for fun, they've allowed me to try and kick and punch them while they try and get hold of me.

Over the years, they've developed a healthy respect for striking. I hold their abilities in similar regard.

Anyone who says that Judo guys can't hold their own, haven't been on the mat with any decent Judoka's.

JohnL

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#117048 - 12/11/03 07:49 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
Lowdown Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 86
Loc: singapore
yea immrt dragon good topic.yea judo is a good self defense art with a little modification.nothing spritual in it not like arts in aikido or silat(it was muslim philosiphies in it!)and it is for anyone!plus fighting on the mat is good exercise and plus judo strengtens the whole body!hey dragon try to throw come of those creeps on the hard floor and show them wat real judo is!!!!

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#117049 - 12/11/03 09:54 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
judodoc Offline
Member

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 152
Loc: Charlottesville VA USA
Some of it may be an unawareness of Judo training and skills. That may be due to the slightly obscure status of Judo in the US these days. Any time I've ever brought one of my MA buddies from another style to a Judo practice they have always come away with a great deal of respect (actually they seem shocked by having their world view rocked so hard ). Some of it may be that uncertainty if they don't feel confident of some grappling fundamentals.
It also may be me that of the many martial art choices out there Judo by its organization has not lent itself to commercialization. When I started MA there were essentially no commercial Karate schools it was all done in Y's, community centers, colleges etc.
I still take Judo at the Y and the local college here and not at 7 tigers or the International Black Belt Center ( TKD, no sparring)

But I agree that for self defense Judo needs either some slight fine tuning or simply a high level player.
How much self defense have you guys experinced in your Judo curriculums ?
I am just curious. Is anybody teaching this ?
Any tips on sources or scenarios ?

BTW I think Judo is undergoing a renaisance
in the US with more kids, families and older adults joining. My own experience in SHUFU.

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#117050 - 12/11/03 10:47 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
JapanJudo Offline
Stranger

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 2
Loc: New York, USA
Judo is both: A Sport and a Combat Martial Art that implement applying maximum effort against the weakest link. It is up to you to learn Combat Judo and the teacher who is willing to teach you it. Another martial art that is both is SAMBO.
Mikey, one of the first things that I have learned in Judo is to protect my nuts and eyes. In fact, I wore a cup for a while after I saw a guy get hit in the crutch when his opponent executed uchimata. I had my eyes and eyelids scratched many times. There are many chokes and neck cranks in Judo that you can do without the gi. I think that mixing in punches and kicks will help and I agree that people are ignorant towards judo. Many donít even know what judo is all about! Guys and Gals you can use Judo in Combat and you can do just fine. You can use Judo not only for self defense but to be the aggressor. Though, youíd have to be a good judo player just like with anything else. Itís important for you to understand that when practicing judo you are fighting at about 75-90% power on every day basis. Another thing Iíd like to educate you on in Judo is that there is Kata in Judo. If you are a member of USJI and/or USJF you will not advance during the promotional competitions, when competing for the Black Belt or higher, if you donít do Kata!
Those who are interested to learn or try Japanese Judo and practice with National and International Champions, please visit Japan Judo dojo in Brooklyn, New York. Our telephone number is 718-331-6406. Ask for Kiyoshi Shiina. We welcome those who seek enlightenment.

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#117051 - 12/11/03 01:19 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
Judodoc, good points. Also, you asked about actual self defense scenarios at different Judo clubs. Mine does some self defense stuff now and again, but I will definitley say competition is a large part of the curriculum. My school does offer self defense as a separate thing, but I have studied other arts and see how I can relate the Judo into self defense. But like I said, we do touch base on it here and there. I also mess around with friends sometimes, and we hit each other (not to kill each other), and Judo always seems to do better for me than other things I've done even though I have as many or more years training in other systems. A lot of the bigger guys, once I get a hold of them, go down fast...point being that average people do not have good takedown defense. I can literally do an Ogoshi and keep most of them in the air resting on my hip for as long as I want, with the option to put them back on their feet or drive their head into the ground (which I don't ever do, they are friends). This is done even with them defending or trying to hit back. That's another reason I think it is so suited for a self defense scenario...they are a lot bigger than me and trying to resist, sometimes they even look so intent, but for me (and I'm sure any other half decent Judoka, athlete or defense artist) it's like a one sided game. Thanks again for the replies.

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#117052 - 12/11/03 08:30 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Judo guys are actually among the most dangerous of martial artists. The reason is because judo is an alive art.

It's EASY for judo guys to prepare for the street. All they have to do is work boxing. The "foul tactics" are easy and don't require practice. Judoka have already got the delivery system down and that's the hard part! What's not to understand?

I think however that there are some schools who don't do as much ground work as other schools. I would give more of an edge to the judoka with the more advanced ne waza. He would have a complete package at that point (with the inclusion of boxing in his training).

-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 12-11-2003).]

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#117053 - 12/12/03 07:21 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
Big Bear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/15/03
Posts: 1068
Loc: Northern Ireland
Hi all, i'm new to this section of the forum.

In my jkd class the other nite we worked on a drill that i think would make a believer out of anyone of the usefullness of judo.

Get a sparring partner to throw on some boxing gloves, and all you wear is a gumshield (and headgear depending on how hard you want to go at it).

Right the drill is,

bloke with gloves throws the punches at you, you are trying to defend yourself (covering up, elbow destruction etc).

What you are trying to do, is to shoot in and take the person to the ground. The "gloves" can jab you away or sprawl out of reach.

Once you do this for 3 minutes, then you take the gloves and reverse roles.


Now you are going to get hit on your way in, that is a certainty, you will have to work on your explosive speed and covering up etc to compensate.

I managed this well enuf with some of the guys (my instructor had a field day with me, but i did manage to get him on one occassion [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]-prob gave me it out of sympathy though and my judo skills are crap-(i've done about 6 months total of jujitsu).
What i'm saying is that, anyone skilled in judo should aim for this position, and try to take the opponent down. That street vs sport is nonsense that people make up to make them feel better (and harder) about their fighting limitations against a skilled opponent.

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#117054 - 12/12/03 07:29 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi JKogas:

Judo guys are actually among the most dangerous of martial artists. The reason is because judo is an alive art.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you, but;

If you use the term, "Alive" one more time, I will employ the 7 ninja of the apocalypse to track you down and torture you for eternity.

Find another expression, preferably one of your own, use your imagination.

NO MORE "ALIVE"
[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

JohnL

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#117055 - 12/21/03 07:46 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Here we go again JohnL.

The word alive has a definition as it relates to martial arts training. It's more than just an adjective.

Saying the word "alive" is far easier than saying; "having the qualities of timing, motion and energy (resistance)" EVERY damned time I post something, lol.

I understand that it might get old, but it's also extremely important when speaking of certain qualities.

-John

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#117056 - 12/26/03 02:44 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
3SIXO Offline
Member

Registered: 12/25/03
Posts: 160
I TRAINING IN KARATE TRADITIONAL JUJITSU AND JUDO AND BY FAR ITHINK JUDO IS THE MOST PHYSICALLY AND MENTALLY CHALLENGEING OF THE BUNCH I JUST WISHED THEY WOULD BE A LITTLE LESS COMPETITION MINDED

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#117057 - 12/26/03 08:13 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
DrAnnMaria Offline
Stranger

Registered: 12/25/03
Posts: 2
Loc: Santa Monica, CA, USA
I found a few uses for judo as self-defense in my mis-spent youth. I did exactly what I did in tournaments. A good o soto makikomi on the asphalt slows down most people. Ko uchi makikomi is a hard fall to take if your back slams into a chair.

Now I am older, hopefully wiser, stay out of fights and just teach. One of the children I teach was recently grabbed around the throat on the school yard. She slammed the young man with o soto gari and sent him to the emergency room.

Guess I never felt any need for modification. Maybe it depends on your personal style. Way back when, the Panam coach said watching me compete was like watching a bar fight.

Originally posted by judodoc:

But I agree that for self defense Judo needs either some slight fine tuning or simply a high level player.
How much self defense have you guys experinced in your Judo curriculums ?
I am just curious. Is anybody teaching this ?
Any tips on sources or scenarios ?

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#117058 - 12/26/03 10:07 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
Hogtooth Offline
Member

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 78
Loc: USA
An often overlooked element of Judo training are the indidgenous Atemi Waza. Reincorporate this into your training to round out what sport competition has virtually eliminated. Judo was never meant to be a sport.

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#117059 - 12/27/03 07:13 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
3SIXO Offline
Member

Registered: 12/25/03
Posts: 160
I would love to find a school that incorporates atemi waza with their judo and trained both for competition and self defense this to me would be a pretty complete system I use the judo i learn on the street enough to see its effectiveness mostly throws and arm bars Im a nyc cop no street fighter lol

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#117060 - 12/27/03 07:24 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Put headgear on and work boxing with closing the distance. Add throws to the mix in the clinch.

-John

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#117061 - 12/27/03 07:38 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
Bossman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
If you look at chapter 19 of Kano's Kodokan Judo the Seiryoku Zen'yo Kokumin Taiku seems to fit the self defence aspects admirably. The solo exercises are all Karate atemi waza, the kneeling and standing techniques against an opponent and weapons are an excellent start for self exploration.

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#117062 - 12/27/03 09:18 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bossman:
If you look at chapter 19 of Kano's Kodokan Judo the Seiryoku Zen'yo Kokumin Taiku seems to fit the self defence aspects admirably. The solo exercises are all Karate atemi waza, the kneeling and standing techniques against an opponent and weapons are an excellent start for self exploration.[/QUOTE]

This book has a lot of useful info in it...I just went to reference mine the other day and it seems that I misplaced it (or let someone borrow it and never got it back). I'm going to get another copy though.

Also, Kogas, really good point about the boxing/clinch/throw. As soon as my neck heals I plan to do more boxing to help round out my Judo training and add another dimension.

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#117063 - 01/11/04 04:57 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
Tanigawa Sensei Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 8
Loc: UK
What seems to have been forgotten is the origins of Judo. Where did Judo come from? Dr Kano studied Ju-Jitsu for many years and found that many of his partners were being hurt. He devised Judo as a safe means of practice, so students would last a little longer. All the Atemi, Leg locks, Spine locks were retained in the Kata's. Judo in certain respescts has lost it's way. In certain clubs/schools it has turned into a competetive sport. Contest was only used in Judo so that the student could try out the techniques and to measure there abilities and nothing more. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/cool.gif[/IMG]

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#117064 - 01/26/04 09:44 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Because of things like Olympic. Bad media exposure. Just like BJJ, people look at the UFC etc and say this is all there is to the art. [you don't need to train to do single leg takedown]

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#117065 - 01/27/04 02:38 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shotokan:
Because of things like Olympic. Bad media exposure. Just like BJJ, people look at the UFC etc and say this is all there is to the art. [you don't need to train to do single leg takedown][/QUOTE]

Bad media exposure to a point, I agree...but the issue I was adressing was from an internal view (eg: traditional arts claiming Judo is just a sport, not self defense applicable, or less of a martial art). From a layman's point of view, they think anyone in a gi kicks/punches and screams "Whattaahh!!!" Thanks for posting with your opinion though, Shotokan.

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#117066 - 03/13/04 06:04 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
backwardwalker Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/11/04
Posts: 6
Loc: fl,usa
Sport VS Self Defense or is it really Sport + Self Defense...This topic is exactly why judo survives, improves and works so well. How many people include eye pokes while doing standing randori?? You simply cannot. One slip and your partner is injured. How about throat grabs, chin shoves while standing? Safer, but the adams apple and face are easily injured.. These simple and realistic techniques can be used as setups (and counters) for throws in a self defense situation as they are in sumo.. From a close standing situation or clinch, you force the opponent to grab your wrist or block a face attack, or he responds by moving his head, groin, or leg, then you go for a grip and throw. If he doesn't reply, you off balance him backwards and throw him.
But, these "dangerous" moves are not practiced in randori so that you can acquire real skills of fighting: throwing, off balancing, movement. These setups are good to know as helpers for your skills. It is essential to introduce rules of fairplay to avoid injury and make practice pleasant. For real fights, we should train using throws as a response to committed face pushing, shoving, face grabbing/eye poking attacks. This is what I believe to be the origin of pummeling in wrestling.. All these ideas are already hidden away in aikido and judo if you look in the right way. Judo gets a bad reputation because the judogi gets in the way of learning how to fight. Shorten the sleeves, allow wrestling tackles, belt grips and chin shoves. Watch it change into the strongest art around.

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#117067 - 03/14/04 06:21 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
Karma Offline
Member

Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 78
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Hi all

For anyone smart enough not to read my past posts, I do Jujitsu.

Now I didn't just choose it cos I liked the name: a bit of research was conducted and I found that Jujitsu covered throwing and grappling as well as striking and choking etc.

Now what I found out later was that this style of Jujitsu is infact a combined art using Judo, Kempo Karate and Jujitsu. What the creator of this art did, and I quote, he "studied several martial arts and combined them with medical science, Anatomy, Dynamics and Psychology"

Sounds to me like this gentleman wanted to create a sound martial art and self defence system

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#117068 - 03/14/04 02:11 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:

Saying the word "alive" is far easier than saying; "having the qualities of timing, motion and energy (resistance)" EVERY damned time I post something, lol.
-John
[/QUOTE]

Lol. Easier for you but more annoying for us.

English is a language of variety.

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#117069 - 03/14/04 02:16 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by backwardwalker:
Sport VS Self Defense or is it really Sport + Self Defense...This topic is exactly why judo survives, improves and works so well. How many people include eye pokes while doing standing randori?? You simply cannot. One slip and your partner is injured. How about throat grabs, chin shoves while standing? Safer, but the adams apple and face are easily injured.. These simple and realistic techniques can be used as setups (and counters) for throws in a self defense situation as they are in sumo.. From a close standing situation or clinch, you force the opponent to grab your wrist or block a face attack, or he responds by moving his head, groin, or leg, then you go for a grip and throw. If he doesn't reply, you off balance him backwards and throw him.
But, these "dangerous" moves are not practiced in randori so that you can acquire real skills of fighting: throwing, off balancing, movement. These setups are good to know as helpers for your skills. It is essential to introduce rules of fairplay to avoid injury and make practice pleasant. For real fights, we should train using throws as a response to committed face pushing, shoving, face grabbing/eye poking attacks. This is what I believe to be the origin of pummeling in wrestling.. All these ideas are already hidden away in aikido and judo if you look in the right way. Judo gets a bad reputation because the judogi gets in the way of learning how to fight. Shorten the sleeves, allow wrestling tackles, belt grips and chin shoves. Watch it change into the strongest art around.
[/QUOTE]

That's my point with this "alive" thing. Some moves can be trained "alive" but I won't go so far as to hurt someone to prove that I can perfrom.


Mine if I borrow your quote Backwardwalker? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 03-14-2004).]

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#117070 - 03/25/04 09:39 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
VJ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 146
Loc: San Diego, CA
the504mikey- I totally disagree with you about the issue of whether judo is a sport or not. First off, judo was intended to be a martial art. Dr. Kano just wanted a safer way to practice. It is much like boxing when someone decided that it would be safer if both fighters wore gloves instead of just bare knuckle.

However I do agree with you about the striking issue. Judokas don't practice effective striking until they are black belt level or above. This reluctance does hamper the judoka in a real street fight. Kata based arts have the problem because street fights are sudden, explosive and irrational. The one advantage of any grappling art is that practice involves dealing with getting out of sudden chokes, strangles and hold downs especially if it goes to the ground.

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#117071 - 03/25/04 10:05 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
VJ,

"Sport" may have been an unfortunate choice of words, although I do think the term applies to the way most judo is being taught and practiced today, at least in the United States.

I share your view that Judo is a complete martial art. I was mainly trying to emphasize the point that what makes judo so effective is the time spent "fighting" a resisting opponent who does not have a cooperative mindset. I think that is a big part of the genius of Kano and the gift he gave us.

So, in essence, I didn't mean "sport" as in not intended for use in combat or self defense, but rather "sport" as in you can play as hard as you want and there is still a pretty good chance everyone will get home relatively intact.

I train in jujitsu now, and we have to be ever vigilant against the fallacy of "cooperating" in our practice. In judo, that problem doesn't exist, and that to me is a big part of what makes judo special and useful. But I never meant to imply that it is not a martial art. At times in my life when I have been hard pressed, judo has helped me. I see it as very much suitable for self defense use, provided you spend a little training time fine tuning it and thinking about what happens before and after the throw. Judo is a great toolbox, and I think a good judoka who spends some time doing "homework" on the more combative aspects of it can become formidable very quickly.

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#117072 - 03/25/04 03:43 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I believe that it wasn't that Kano solely wanted a "safer" way of training as is generally told. I believe he wanted a more realistic way of training.

Kano was truly one of the great thinkers of his time.


-John

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#117073 - 03/26/04 02:05 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
VJ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 146
Loc: San Diego, CA
the504mikey:

The main reason that I believe that judo gets a bad rep is the stand-up factor. Judo has poor strikes. Check out how many judoka have ko'd anyone with strikes. Christophe Leninger discovered this fighting Ken Shamrock in the UFC. He added some punches and advanced to the final round but still didn't show any real punching power.

Grappling itself isn't the question as proven by the UFC, ECC, KOTC and other NHB tournaments. Most of the more successful fighters incorporate judo throws into their arsenal. But if one notices most fighters grab the cage or rope to avoid being taken down. This is a natural reaction not something trained because people don't want to be taken down.

Sadly only in the Olympics does anyone (except me) see it. For some reason it isn't shown on tv.

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#117074 - 03/26/04 02:53 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
[QUOTE]
Sadly only in the Olympics does anyone (except me) see it (judo). For some reason it isn't shown on tv.
[/QUOTE]

Actually, I thought about this when the original question was posed. To me, it's not that judo has a bad rep, it's that it has NO rep. Most anyone who has any direct experience with judo has a great deal of respect for it both as a sport and a martial art-- judo just doesn't seem to get any exposure.

I'm not sure that is a bad thing, really. If everyone started flocking to judo I think they would take away more from it than they would bring to it-- the McDojo phenomenon. Soon you would see instructors minimizing ukemi to keep the customers happy, then the list of restricted techniques would start to grow, and soon you would have tae kwon judo...

(I mean no offense to traditional TKD practitioners. You should be as aware as anyone how becoming too popular can be bad for an art.)

The truth is, real martial arts just isn't for everyone, or even for very many people. That's OK. If it were for everyone, it would have to change into something else, something that in my opinion is a lot less desirable.

It would still be great to be abel to turn on ESPN and catch a judo match once or twice a week, though.

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#117075 - 03/29/04 10:25 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
VJ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 146
Loc: San Diego, CA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by the504mikey:
I'm not sure that is a bad thing, really. If everyone started flocking to judo I think they would take away more from it than they would bring to it-- the McDojo phenomenon.
[/QUOTE]

I disagree with that because I've met many people who have studied different arts who show little or no respect for judo. Sadly they see it as a japanese version of wrestling(?). When I mention that its on totally different principles (leverage & balance versus strength) they think of ju-jitsu or aikido. You won't believe how many laugh when I tell them it is actually a martial art. Usually they advise me that they have seen track & field events, swimming, swimming and less exciting sports. I've been asked if judo is such an exciting sport why isn't it on tv like soccer, swimming, horseback riding, track and field.
I would hate to see the "McDojo phenonemon" however more exposure would educate people about judo.

Plus it wouldn't hurt for judokas to be able to watch the Olympic judo and cheer for their teams.

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#117076 - 03/29/04 12:37 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
VJ - Perhaps the people you mention in the above post are mildly retarded OR never actually fought/trained with a Judoka. It's like people's opinions of boxing. Many say they would get destroyed in a street fight because they only employ punching...these people are sorely mistaken. I know a BJJ kid who actually thinks you can just grab a boxer and take him down...so not true. The footwork and ability to hit you while moving would be a huge challenge to deal with for any grappler. Likewise, Judoka would show how martial oriented it can be in a real or close to real fight (eg: Fedor, Judoka/Samboist - Yoshida, Judoka). I think those types of people do not train in Judo and need an excuse to make themselves feel better...eg: "it's just a sport." Like an insecure guy who picks on everyone and puts them down to put himself on top. Then ask these people if they have actually tried Judo...they either say "no" or "I did it for a couple months, but I didn't think it was defense otriented enough"...translation: "I couldn't take it, they actually fight and resist."

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#117077 - 04/01/04 03:20 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
immrtldragon -- SO true! People who's egos prevent them in participating against others in martial "sport" (for fear of looking bad) use the "sport" excuse all the time.

Most judo guys are very tough. Toughness is created by the very act of training in a realistic martial art (such as judo or boxing, etc...). The very nature of these sports is tough. I think that many judo players would be people that you wouldn't want to screw with on the street. Same with boxers, muay Thai fighters, BJJ fighters, etc. (all of these being "sport" in some people's eyes)


-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 04-01-2004).]

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#117078 - 04/01/04 11:55 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
VJ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 146
Loc: San Diego, CA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
immrtldragon -- SO true! People who's egos prevent them in participating against others in martial "sport" (for fear of looking bad) use the "sport" excuse all the time.

Most judo guys are very tough. Toughness is created by the very act of training in a realistic martial art (such as judo or boxing, etc...). The very nature of these sports is tough. I think that many judo players would be people that you wouldn't want to screw with on the street. Same with boxers, muay Thai fighters, BJJ fighters, etc. (all of these being "sport" in some people's eyes)


-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 04-01-2004).]
[/QUOTE]

Let's stop here for a moment. The people that I speak with are martial artists themselves and not handicapped in any manner. (Maybe financially). I doubt that they wouldn't be able to take it because most work as bouncers or security people. Many are military and do this as a side job. Is this to say that their military training in self defense isn't sufficiently tough enough? I work on a military base and watch the service people do their running, jumping, self defense training, survival training and general admin training regularly. Sorry immtrldragon and JKogas but you are both way off on that note.

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#117079 - 04/02/04 10:24 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
Great, they are martial artists. What does that tell me...they practice some type of martial art. That doesn't actually mean they are good fighters or know what they are doing. As far as your friends who are bouncers/security...still, that tells me nothing. If that is the case, they have some type of weapon (security) or a lot of backup (bouncers) and primarily deal with drunken fools. I have met cops who train in Aikido...does that mean it is the best??? Nope. I train with some cops at my Judo club...they agree with me that Judo is the most realistic thing they have found to date. That is also their opinion. Now we're kind of going off topic. I am going to say that the way I perceived my training and 'foul tactics' is based on personal experience and things I have witnessed...not stories I've been told. I have been poked and pinched and had 'pressure points' pushed...it is an annoyance at best based on my PERSONAL, ACTUAL experience. I went to a Taijutsu school where they insisted these moves would put you out and got into a little 'more serious' scuffle with a student who thought these 'weak points' was the end all. They really didn't do anything...he was a black belt with a chip on his shoulder. You can believe what you want...I go by what I have experienced. Perhaps 'tricks' work on inexperienced drunk guys...good for them...not good for me. But believe what you want...you have your beliefs based on what you have heard...I have mine based on what I've experienced.

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#117080 - 04/02/04 10:41 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
VJ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 146
Loc: San Diego, CA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by immrtldragon:
But believe what you want...you have your beliefs based on what you have heard...I have mine based on what I've experienced.[/QUOTE]

Take a breath immrtldragon. Under no circumstances am I trying to provoke an argument with you. I am expressing my opinion and I am happy that I've been blessed not to have to fight. Nor am I trying to change your viewpoint because I don't know you. The bouncers and other people that I talk to may (or may not) have weapons on them. Most of the clubs here don't let there bouncers carry guns because if something happens and innocent people get hurt the club is liable. I am glad that someone has effectively applied judo in a real life situation and survived. I plan to learn more about the self defense side of judo rather than just the sport side. Later.

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#117081 - 04/03/04 09:21 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
<takes deep breath>
That feels better. I was just saying that the foul tactics can't be relied on and was trying to show why I think that. If it came off as a tyraid (sp) I apologize.

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#117082 - 04/03/04 04:29 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
VJ -- it would greatly help you to take your blinders off regarding the whole sport/street thing. Why take it as a black and white issue?

If there is NO sportive qualities within your training, you're not going to be able to apply what it is that you're training!

-John

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#117083 - 04/06/04 10:47 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
moondog Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 8
Loc: stevens point Wi USA
I truly enjoy training in judo. I do this at least one day a week. It allows me to mend up a bit from training in jujutsu. the judo traing though tough, is gentler and not so painfull. At the same time the sensitivity Ive gained from judo has greatly impoved my abillity as a jujutsu fighter. IM currently training judo with two judoka that have their rokyu dan, so they are very skilled and they have certainly tuaght me much in the last several years. Yep Judo is great!!!

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#117084 - 04/07/04 01:15 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
VJ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 146
Loc: San Diego, CA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by immrtldragon:
<takes deep breath>
That feels better. I was just saying that the foul tactics can't be relied on and was trying to show why I think that. If it came off as a tyraid (sp) I apologize.
[/QUOTE]

No doubt about "foul tactics" IM. I personally wouldn't want to bet my life on an eye poke. I'd definitely prefer to rely on serious, realistic practice and repitition any day of the week. Experience is the toughest teacher but leaves the most impressionable lessons. Thanks for the input though because it broadens my knowledge.

-VJ

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#117085 - 04/07/04 08:18 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I do however feel that such "foul" tactics can create openings. I just wanted it to be known that I'm not against such tactics. I just prefer to base my skill on more "legitimate" techniques if you will.


-John

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#117086 - 04/29/04 03:23 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
VJ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 146
Loc: San Diego, CA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
VJ -- it would greatly help you to take your blinders off regarding the whole sport/street thing. Why take it as a black and white issue?

If there is NO sportive qualities within your training, you're not going to be able to apply what it is that you're training!

-John
[/QUOTE]

No blinders on John. Sport judo shouldn't be considered necessarily street effective is the real point. It has to be modified to be effective on the streets for survival. Streetfights are totally different from randori.

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#117087 - 04/29/04 05:25 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
Everyting has to be modified to some extent. Because of the way it is practiced, Judo just takes less modification. If you think you practice the way people 'street fight,' you better have a great insurance plan.

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#117088 - 05/03/04 11:25 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
VJ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 146
Loc: San Diego, CA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by immrtldragon:
Everyting has to be modified to some extent. Because of the way it is practiced, Judo just takes less modification. If you think you practice the way people 'street fight,' you better have a great insurance plan.[/QUOTE]

immrtldragon - no actually I don't believe you can practice the way people street fight. However I have been to a reality combat course and spoken with a few police officers. Streetfighting is the wildest, spontaneous combat a person will ever be unfortunate to experience. However to go out there with traditional fighting styles may be taking a knife to a gun fight. Just my opinion.

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#117089 - 05/03/04 01:14 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
I disagree. Most 'street fighters' can't fight to save their lives. They have the agression and, um, uh, that's it. True story. This guy that lives in my neighborhood is considered one of the toughest guys in the area. He is in his 20's and has been in lots of fights over the years. I've seen many of them. He has been the winner more than the loser. About a year ago he was hanging out with mutual friends of mine and his and he wanted to mess with me. O Soto Gari to straight armbar in about a second and I was left wondering how he ever won a fight in his life. It's a true story and the guy even goes to the boxing club with me now. He's not a bad guy, just has a temper. Believe it, I've seen him beat some arse.

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#117090 - 05/06/04 03:31 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
Judo/JiuJitsu Info Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/06/04
Posts: 8
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JapanJudo:
Judo is both: A Sport and a Combat Martial Art that implement applying maximum effort against the weakest link. It is up to you to learn Combat Judo and the teacher who is willing to teach you it. Another martial art that is both is SAMBO.
Mikey, one of the first things that I have learned in Judo is to protect my nuts and eyes. In fact, I wore a cup for a while after I saw a guy get hit in the crutch when his opponent executed uchimata. I had my eyes and eyelids scratched many times. There are many chokes and neck cranks in Judo that you can do without the gi. I think that mixing in punches and kicks will help and I agree that people are ignorant towards judo. Many donít even know what judo is all about! Guys and Gals you can use Judo in Combat and you can do just fine. You can use Judo not only for self defense but to be the aggressor. Though, youíd have to be a good judo player just like with anything else. Itís important for you to understand that when practicing judo you are fighting at about 75-90% power on every day basis. Another thing Iíd like to educate you on in Judo is that there is Kata in Judo. If you are a member of USJI and/or USJF you will not advance during the promotional competitions, when competing for the Black Belt or higher, if you donít do Kata!
Those who are interested to learn or try Japanese Judo and practice with National and International Champions, please visit Japan Judo dojo in Brooklyn, New York. Our telephone number is 718-331-6406. Ask for Kiyoshi Shiina. We welcome those who seek enlightenment.
[/QUOTE]

I completely agree.Very informative and high regards to your education.

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#117091 - 05/07/04 03:25 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
VJ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 146
Loc: San Diego, CA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JapanJudo:
I think that mixing in punches and kicks will help. Itís important for you to understand that when practicing judo you are fighting at about 75-90% power on every day basis. [/QUOTE]

Thanks for bringing up a good point. Striking is something that most judo players seem to do poorly. Watching Christophe Leninger at two UFC events is an example. A great judo player but all his opponents commented on the weak strikes. However he was not a small person.
Judo players do have the luxury of being able to use much more of their power than players in the striking arts even in sparring. Imagine if one person hit another with 90 percent of their power in every day sparring. A whole lot of fights would be started in the dojo.

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#117092 - 05/07/04 03:32 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
Of course Judo players who are strictly Judo will be poor punchers. Silva said Yoshida hit harder, possibly hardest of all his opponents. Big compliment, but if you watch the fight, they were still not good punches. They were hard, but not accurate and very wild. You have to train punching to be a good puncher.

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#117093 - 05/10/04 10:21 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
VJ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 146
Loc: San Diego, CA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by immrtldragon:
Of course Judo players who are strictly Judo will be poor punchers. You have to train punching to be a good puncher. [/QUOTE]

Thanks for stating the obvious. Yoshida trained to strike which has been felt to be one of the weak points of judo.

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#117094 - 05/10/04 11:05 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by VJ:
Striking is something that most judo players seem to do poorly. Watching Christophe Leninger at two UFC events is an example. A great judo player but all his opponents commented on the weak strikes. [/QUOTE]

Thanks for bringing up the obvious first. I was just stating another fact in response to your intitial statement. I was actually reinforcing your point. Your welcome in that case.

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#117095 - 05/16/04 09:21 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Jigori Kano created judo as a sport. Judoka are definately the HARDEST people that I have ever sparred. Just because it teaches you to handle yourself in a fight, albiet really well, it is still a sport. At least the kodokan judo set up by Jigori Kano. If sports that teach you how to fight are martial arts, I easily have the rank of nidan in ice hockey-do.
No disrespect to judo practitioners. I would rather face karate, tkd, and jujitsu than a good judoka.

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#117096 - 05/17/04 11:00 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sammyrai:
No disrespect to judo practitioners. I would rather face karate, tkd, and jujitsu than a good judoka.[/QUOTE]

Interesting, but isn't TKD also a sport?? BTW, what about a trained, competitive boxer? Or a BJJ practitioner? Also sports.

P.S. Hockey isn't really a sport that develops fighting skills. A lot of my friends play hockey and although they are intimidating, they may be the easiest people I have ever thrown on their arse while they were trying to act tough.

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#117097 - 05/17/04 09:17 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
VJ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 146
Loc: San Diego, CA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sammyrai:
Jigori Kano created judo as a sport. Judoka are definately the HARDEST people that I have ever sparred. Just because it teaches you to handle yourself in a fight, albiet really well, it is still a sport. At least the kodokan judo set up by Jigori Kano. If sports that teach you how to fight are martial arts, I easily have the rank of nidan in ice hockey-do.
No disrespect to judo practitioners. I would rather face karate, tkd, and jujitsu than a good judoka.
[/QUOTE]

Dr. Kano created Judo as both a martial art and a sport to be exact.

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#117098 - 05/18/04 08:48 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sammyrai:
...If sports that teach you how to fight are martial arts, I easily have the rank of nidan in ice hockey-do.
No disrespect to judo practitioners. I would rather face karate, tkd, and jujitsu than a good judoka.
[/QUOTE]

What about a judoka that knows how to box?


-John

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#117099 - 05/18/04 09:32 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
VJ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 146
Loc: San Diego, CA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by immrtldragon:
Thanks for bringing up the obvious first. I was just stating another fact in response to your intitial statement. I was actually reinforcing your point. Your welcome in that case.[/QUOTE]

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#117100 - 05/19/04 11:08 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
What about a judoka that knows how to box?


-John

[/QUOTE]

I'm working on it. Should be in the ring sparring within a couple more weeks. I'm actually quite nervous...it will be very different to not be allowed or able to throw someone. I'm basically getting in on their 'turf.' Luckily, everyone there is cool, so I know I'll be getting my head knocked around by someone who is just trying to help. Maybe I'll post about the experience when I wake up.

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#117101 - 05/20/04 10:58 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
VJ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 146
Loc: San Diego, CA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by immrtldragon:
I'm working on it. Should be in the ring sparring within a couple more weeks. I'm actually quite nervous...it will be very different to not be allowed or able to throw someone. I'm basically getting in on their 'turf.' Luckily, everyone there is cool, so I know I'll be getting my head knocked around by someone who is just trying to help. Maybe I'll post about the experience when I wake up.[/QUOTE]

Good luck and let us know how it goes. It worked for Christophe Leninger who managed to make it to the finals of the UFC.

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#117102 - 05/20/04 12:27 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
I used to hate sparring, when I first started to box, hang on a minute what am i saying, I still do!! lol!

Just control the fear mate, recognise the adrenaline, and realise that you are in there for a LONG time. Don't try and kill him all at once. Also keep moving, otherwise you'll get twatted.

If you get lazy or switch off, you'll be static and a prime target.

Don't wanna come across patronizing, but I thought, I'd have liked someone to have rammmed that down my throat when I first climbed in the ring.

Alec.

PS CHIN DOWN, HANDS UP!! lol! good luck!

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#117103 - 05/21/04 11:03 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
Thanks guys, I'll post about it after it happens.

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#117104 - 05/23/04 09:49 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
Anonymous
Unregistered


You are absolutely right... Alot of martial artist are always bagging JUDO and strangely enough it is mainly martial artist that practice grappling arts that like to bring out the above mentioned remark. Like most of you Im in love with martial arts all types of martial im oppened minded and will appreciate different styles for different reasons. You should not take degrading remarks directed at JUDO personally as you must understand that it is in human nature to shy away and be ignorant to things that they dont understand.

I dont practice Judo i practice an "ECLECTIC" stystem ( a system made up of many systems ) and man im always getting told by people who practice "PURE" styles that the style i practice is just a rip off of many styles and that i should be ashamed ...and you what my reply is ? nothing i say nothing becuase at the end of the day i have to live with it not them me...so my basic point is "is JUDO just a sport" hell yeah but so what its a darn good sport ...please name me one martial arts style out there that is not a sport...ok granted there are alot of schools who concentrate on self defense and claim that their style is far superior to any other and that sports oriented styles are no good for the street...and to all those that think this let me ask you this ? how many of you think that Mike Tyson could not defend himself on the street .. I mean he practices a form of combat sports?....

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#117105 - 05/24/04 09:36 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
VJ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 146
Loc: San Diego, CA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Komunista:

You are absolutely right... Alot of martial artist are always bagging JUDO and strangely enough it is mainly martial artist that practice grappling arts that like to bring out the above mentioned remark. Like most of you Im in love with martial arts all types of martial im oppened minded and will appreciate different styles for different reasons. You should not take degrading remarks directed at JUDO personally as you must understand that it is in human nature to shy away and be ignorant to things that they dont understand.

I dont practice Judo i practice an "ECLECTIC" stystem ( a system made up of many systems ) and man im always getting told by people who practice "PURE" styles that the style i practice is just a rip off of many styles and that i should be ashamed ...and you what my reply is ? nothing i say nothing becuase at the end of the day i have to live with it not them me...so my basic point is "is JUDO just a sport" hell yeah but so what its a darn good sport ...please name me one martial arts style out there that is not a sport...ok granted there are alot of schools who concentrate on self defense and claim that their style is far superior to any other and that sports oriented styles are no good for the street...and to all those that think this let me ask you this ? how many of you think that Mike Tyson could not defend himself on the street .. I mean he practices a form of combat sports?....

[/QUOTE]

After deciphering your statement I agree with most of it. Judo however is also a martial art as well. The sport aspect is just what the world has gotten used to. However for judo to evolve it has to continuously change to meet the times. People who complain about your eclectic style being a rip-off just don''t want to face change. They are comfortable with traditional methods.

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