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#117043 - 12/10/03 04:12 PM Why does Judo get a bad rep?
immrtldragon Offline

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
OK, obviously I am one of the biggest Judo advocates on this forum, but I was just thinking of the bad rep Judo gets. It always seems to pop up somewhere that Judo is a sport. I was just reading a post somewhere else and this stupid debate popped up again. People say things like: "My teacher did Judo but then decided to do a self defense art such as ______." A lot of times I hear that traditional Jujutsu is better than Judo. I will not even touch the "alive" argument in fear of being lynched, but what is the big difference? Is a Judo choke used in sport less effective than a traditional Jujutsu choke? Or even an armbar for that matter? It's a fact that if I keep choking after my opponent taps, he will be why is it always being discredited as "just a sport?" Opinions, comments, agree/disagree? Am I alone on this?

#117044 - 12/10/03 04:35 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
the504mikey Offline

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
Judo *is* a sport. That's the whole point. Don't shy away from the "aliveness" label. That's an important part of why judo study can be so valuable. Judo also has a heck of a lot to teach us about self defense, as in, "How do I do things to a strong, determined, well trained opponent that he would rather I didn't do?"

Judo does require some "fine tuning" to be used on the street, but if you are a competent judoka with a good teacher you can do that fine tuning fairly easily.

It doesn't take much for a judo guy to learn some strikes, how to throw and choke without using the gi, and how to be mindful of getting poked in the eyes or kicked in the nards while he is doing it.

I think people bash judo primarily out of ignorance, or to make themselves feel better about not putting in the hard work that judo requires. Some of the toughest "old timers" teaching reality self defense today got their start as judo men.

Kata based arts like traditional jujitsu can be trained as hard as you are willing to train them, and that can be a problem because most people don't want to train all that hard. A competitive (if you're sick of using the "A word") sport forces us to try much harder because we push our opponent further, and he reaches deeper to push back. You both end up driving each other to places only the most determined cooperative training can reach, so even the "loser" wins.

The next time somebody scoffs at judo, ask him to give Gene Lebell a ring. He'll be glad to introduce him to someone who will make a believer out of him, if he doesn't do it personally.

[This message has been edited by the504mikey (edited 12-10-2003).]

#117045 - 12/10/03 04:51 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?

I believe ignorance is a big part of it. Your average everyday person does not understand real grappling. They do not understand how damaging throws, locks,chokes,strangles are. To them, self defense is bludgeoning someone unconscious.

I do believe if judoka want to be prepared for self defense, need to work a little on slipping blows.

#117046 - 12/10/03 07:04 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
immrtldragon Offline

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
Good points...actually Mikey, the reason I joked about the "alive" thing is because there is some heated debates between JKogas & CXT in the martial arts forum about this concept. Nekogami, I completely agree that learning to slip/move/block punches is essential to making Judo more self-defense oriented. I know it's not real fighting, but Yoshida is doing some amazing things in Pride, but if he had better striking skill he would be that much better. Thanks for replying.

#117047 - 12/11/03 06:55 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
The Judoka's I know are some of the hardest guys be on a mat with.

I've trained in Judo with them and occaisionally for fun, they've allowed me to try and kick and punch them while they try and get hold of me.

Over the years, they've developed a healthy respect for striking. I hold their abilities in similar regard.

Anyone who says that Judo guys can't hold their own, haven't been on the mat with any decent Judoka's.


#117048 - 12/11/03 07:49 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
Lowdown Offline

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 86
Loc: singapore
yea immrt dragon good topic.yea judo is a good self defense art with a little modification.nothing spritual in it not like arts in aikido or silat(it was muslim philosiphies in it!)and it is for anyone!plus fighting on the mat is good exercise and plus judo strengtens the whole body!hey dragon try to throw come of those creeps on the hard floor and show them wat real judo is!!!!

#117049 - 12/11/03 09:54 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
judodoc Offline

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 152
Loc: Charlottesville VA USA
Some of it may be an unawareness of Judo training and skills. That may be due to the slightly obscure status of Judo in the US these days. Any time I've ever brought one of my MA buddies from another style to a Judo practice they have always come away with a great deal of respect (actually they seem shocked by having their world view rocked so hard ). Some of it may be that uncertainty if they don't feel confident of some grappling fundamentals.
It also may be me that of the many martial art choices out there Judo by its organization has not lent itself to commercialization. When I started MA there were essentially no commercial Karate schools it was all done in Y's, community centers, colleges etc.
I still take Judo at the Y and the local college here and not at 7 tigers or the International Black Belt Center ( TKD, no sparring)

But I agree that for self defense Judo needs either some slight fine tuning or simply a high level player.
How much self defense have you guys experinced in your Judo curriculums ?
I am just curious. Is anybody teaching this ?
Any tips on sources or scenarios ?

BTW I think Judo is undergoing a renaisance
in the US with more kids, families and older adults joining. My own experience in SHUFU.

#117050 - 12/11/03 10:47 AM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
JapanJudo Offline

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 2
Loc: New York, USA
Judo is both: A Sport and a Combat Martial Art that implement applying maximum effort against the weakest link. It is up to you to learn Combat Judo and the teacher who is willing to teach you it. Another martial art that is both is SAMBO.
Mikey, one of the first things that I have learned in Judo is to protect my nuts and eyes. In fact, I wore a cup for a while after I saw a guy get hit in the crutch when his opponent executed uchimata. I had my eyes and eyelids scratched many times. There are many chokes and neck cranks in Judo that you can do without the gi. I think that mixing in punches and kicks will help and I agree that people are ignorant towards judo. Many donít even know what judo is all about! Guys and Gals you can use Judo in Combat and you can do just fine. You can use Judo not only for self defense but to be the aggressor. Though, youíd have to be a good judo player just like with anything else. Itís important for you to understand that when practicing judo you are fighting at about 75-90% power on every day basis. Another thing Iíd like to educate you on in Judo is that there is Kata in Judo. If you are a member of USJI and/or USJF you will not advance during the promotional competitions, when competing for the Black Belt or higher, if you donít do Kata!
Those who are interested to learn or try Japanese Judo and practice with National and International Champions, please visit Japan Judo dojo in Brooklyn, New York. Our telephone number is 718-331-6406. Ask for Kiyoshi Shiina. We welcome those who seek enlightenment.

#117051 - 12/11/03 01:19 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
immrtldragon Offline

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
Judodoc, good points. Also, you asked about actual self defense scenarios at different Judo clubs. Mine does some self defense stuff now and again, but I will definitley say competition is a large part of the curriculum. My school does offer self defense as a separate thing, but I have studied other arts and see how I can relate the Judo into self defense. But like I said, we do touch base on it here and there. I also mess around with friends sometimes, and we hit each other (not to kill each other), and Judo always seems to do better for me than other things I've done even though I have as many or more years training in other systems. A lot of the bigger guys, once I get a hold of them, go down fast...point being that average people do not have good takedown defense. I can literally do an Ogoshi and keep most of them in the air resting on my hip for as long as I want, with the option to put them back on their feet or drive their head into the ground (which I don't ever do, they are friends). This is done even with them defending or trying to hit back. That's another reason I think it is so suited for a self defense scenario...they are a lot bigger than me and trying to resist, sometimes they even look so intent, but for me (and I'm sure any other half decent Judoka, athlete or defense artist) it's like a one sided game. Thanks again for the replies.

#117052 - 12/11/03 08:30 PM Re: Why does Judo get a bad rep?
JKogas Offline

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Judo guys are actually among the most dangerous of martial artists. The reason is because judo is an alive art.

It's EASY for judo guys to prepare for the street. All they have to do is work boxing. The "foul tactics" are easy and don't require practice. Judoka have already got the delivery system down and that's the hard part! What's not to understand?

I think however that there are some schools who don't do as much ground work as other schools. I would give more of an edge to the judoka with the more advanced ne waza. He would have a complete package at that point (with the inclusion of boxing in his training).


[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 12-11-2003).]

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