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#117034 - 11/18/03 02:05 PM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
judodoc Offline
Member

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 152
Loc: Charlottesville VA USA
Immrtldragon my competition days are past although I still play randori fairly enthusiastically. I may go to the liberty bell however if any of our gang is competing. We are in central Va.
Va state championships are March 6 or 7 in Charlottesville btw, open to all. I will be there as the guess what, doc.

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#117035 - 11/19/03 07:35 AM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
I'm impressed by your vigorous defence of Judo, Mr. dragon, even if I am slightly cautious of your assertion that traditional arts are less effective than combat sports.

I also think there is quite a bit of truth in what lowdown has to say. Any sport has to be self regulating, by that I mean it has to have rules. Training with a set of rules in mind, however sub-consciously, CAN be a misleading experience. The further Judo goes down the sporting road, the greater prominence these rules recieve, and Judoka take it as read that certain things wont happen to them when they perform some techniques. There are techniques in Judo that leave nage vulnerable to a follow up from uke, only that follow up is outwith the rules and so never comes. That is, I believe, the unavoidable danger with training a combat sport for self defence.

Judo has perfectly good self defence applications, I am myself a great admirer of Judo for self defence, but it is rarely trained in that way. A lot of modern Judoka don't train in the kata for example, and atemi waza is never introduced into their training, even though these were a part of Kano's art.

I think what lowdown is doing is cautioning us against complacency, and reminding us that Judo does have other sides apart from the sporting one which pre-dominates modern training. We should keep the whole art alive, not just parts of it.

Budo

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#117036 - 11/19/03 11:17 AM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
Lowdown Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 86
Loc: singapore
yea cato u really read my mind taht was just what i acutally meant to say and thnx for ur comments guys!

[This message has been edited by Lowdown (edited 11-19-2003).]

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#117037 - 11/19/03 11:54 AM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
Cato, I hear what your saying and it makes sense...but any Judoka that has half a brain realizes the rules don't apply to actual combat. I think training with self-defense in mind is the ultimate...I actually rarely compete and like the training for the defense applications. Also, my opinion about sporting arts being more functional for defense than traditional arts is simply that...my opinion. It is based on the exeriences I have had in traditional arts. As well, my post states MOST traditional arts/artists...not all. There are exceptions. I was just giving my beliefs based on what I have seen and done. I am probably one of the minority on this forum that feels there is a worth to kata and that Aikido (first traditional art I thought of) can be a potent form of self-defense. I was just defending Judo because I honestly felt that it was attacked unjustly by the original post. As Judo does train with rules, so does all other arts. Our rule may be, no punching or kicking an opponent...a traditional martial art as MOST I have seen practiced have one rule...don't really hit me, just stop short. Those examples may be broad generalizations, but again they are based on my opinions through experience. My posts are not now and were never meant to attack traditional martial arts/artists. If I have offended anyone, I apologize (exept Lowdown, jk). But seriously, I have tried Aikido and liked it a lot. I wanted to continue training, but the time/money/travelling involved is just too impractical for me at this time. So, in short, I feel all MA have rules in their training and they all need to be worked around for self-defense...however, I feel that Judo may need less adaptation than traditional arts with (no)(?) rules...even though the lack of rules in them takes away the contact and actual attack which is needed to defend. Always exceptions to every rule though.

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#117038 - 11/19/03 02:23 PM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by judodoc:
Immrtldragon my competition days are past although I still play randori fairly enthusiastically. I may go to the liberty bell however if any of our gang is competing. We are in central Va.
Va state championships are March 6 or 7 in Charlottesville btw, open to all. I will be there as the guess what, doc.
[/QUOTE]

The Liberty Bell Classic is March 27, 28 this year. This will (hopefully, depending on neck injury), be my first year competing in the Liberty Bell. I hope I can get in shape before hand...I just trained for the first time the other night and I got ipponed twice...in addition my neck hurts again. I'm going to still train though...see if it gets worse. The VA tournament sounds cool, but it is rare for me to get the chance to travel for competitions...broke college guy. If I get out there, I will post ahead of time though...we can randori a little.

Judokid...how old are you? Do you live in the Phila area or will you be travelling to Liberty Bell if you attend? Even if I can't fight, I'll be there to help out.

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#117039 - 11/21/03 03:26 PM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
Judokid Offline
Member

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 184
Sorry it took me so long to reply---
I talked to my mom about it, and I really don't think that i can go. however, if I try to show it to my dad, he will probably want me to go. NMy mom had very little clue what I was talking about, but my dad loves the idea of my progressing in Judo. There's really only a slim chance that I would end up going, since I live several hours from Philadelphia, but we go to PA a lot, so there still is a chance, however slim. I'll ask him when he gets home in a few days, or sooner.

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#117040 - 11/22/03 07:57 PM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
lowdown,
you asked if you could put the lethal techniques back into judo and just do them lightly (would this not be jujutsu then?)
have you ever choked someone properly, its VERY EASY....and requires VERY LITTLE pressure. same with joint locks, very little pressure is needed to cause extreme amounts of pain which can in itsself render an opponent immobile, and with just a SLIGHT bit of too much force and you have a shattered wrist or elbow on your hands...so NO you CANT practice some of the more lethal jujutsu locks chokes and throws safely in this context.
all this talk about "alive" training (i am all for it)...however these people know nothing about kyusho!!
to an extent you might be able to get away with doing some joint locks and things...but with kyusho...let me tell you a very light slap to your jaw is all it takes to end a fight if done properly, and in an "alive" training session such as randori...the dojo would be littered with unconcious(or worse) people. and i would guarantee that the sensei would not be able to watch all "pairs" of people throroughly...therefore could not possible know what pressure points were used to effect the knockout, therefore would not know which to use to revive the uke!!
kyusho in an "alive" environment....BAD IDEA!
(there are SOME points you could get away with, but given the levels of force used in randori and such things....it would be very likely that you would have broken bones all over the dojo)...let me explain a little.
there is for example a pressure point on the back of your arm (no i am not going to say exactly where) that when STRUCK(not pressed or rubbed as they will not work for this point) straight into the bone(angle and direction are EVERYTHING), it sends a message to your brain that the arm is about to be broken, therefore your brain responds by "releasing" your shoulder muscles, so you get a dislocated shoulder instead of a broken arm. you can hit this point safely if done very very lightly...but in randori im sure you can imagine the possiblities!!
(on angle and direction....if these are not correct pressure points will not work...and also why some people say it doesnt work...they are doing it wrong lol) sorry for the pp rant

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#117041 - 11/22/03 10:53 PM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
Lowdown Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 86
Loc: singapore
wow im surprised taht this topic is still hot and big.but hey kempo i want u to read this http://www.street-self-defense.com/
and read the whole article!!!see waht they say!

[This message has been edited by Lowdown (edited 11-22-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Lowdown (edited 11-22-2003).]

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