FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 34 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
sunny, swordy, jerrybarry24, SenseiGregT, sagat
22914 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Ed_Morris 4
futsaowingchun 3
AndyLA 3
ergees 2
kolslaw 1
September
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30
New Topics
STX Kickboxing Seminar
by Marcus Charles
09/09/14 06:57 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
09/01/14 03:51 AM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
08/19/14 05:22 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
mindfullness meditation
by
01/06/09 11:27 AM
Recent Posts
Eugue Ryu
by kolslaw
09/12/14 03:35 PM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by AndyLA
09/09/14 05:55 PM
attacked from behind
by AndyLA
09/07/14 07:01 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
09/02/14 06:26 PM
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
09/01/14 03:51 AM
mindfullness meditation
by log1call
08/31/14 09:43 PM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
The Karate punch
by Ed_Morris
08/26/14 09:27 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
Forum Stats
22914 Members
36 Forums
35575 Topics
432491 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#117024 - 11/16/03 07:54 AM judo becoming a useless sport........
Lowdown Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 86
Loc: singapore
hi guys.judo is becoming a useless sport and it is said by many people(inculding my sensei) in 20 years time,the martial art of judo will become something like a sport totally just like boxing.is there anything we can do to save judo before it becomes a sport?as the founder never intended to become a sport he even crticised sport judo saying taht it is becoming a sport that only uses stretngh and muscle rather than the old school judo that uses timing and leverage.when kodokan judo was first founded,if u read one of the old books of the kodokan history,ALL of the techinses were done witouht the gi and was used to self defense rather than sport.it had joint locks pressure points and striking very smillar to jujitsu .it was known as a safer part of jujitsu.is there anyway to save kodokan judo from becoming a sport?post ur opinions people.......... take a look at this too! http://www.kmaia-usa.org/resources/articles/yudo.htm

[This message has been edited by Lowdown (edited 11-16-2003).]

Top
#117025 - 11/16/03 09:55 AM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
Judo has evolved into a sport that can be used for self-defense...I'll give you that. I'll also give you that it may not have been Kano's intentions. Judo has evolved, like anything else that wants to survive and flourish. Useless?...I doubt it. After claiming it was useless you mentioned: "much like boxing." It is many people's opinion that a trained boxer could destroy most trained Martial Artists...just as it is many (including my) opinion that any Judoka, Thai Boxer, Wrestler, BJJ, etc could destroy most traditional Martial Artists (not all, but most). What system do you study (where your sensei called it a useless sport?). That's a pretty rude statement. Is he un-athletic? What other sports are useless? The ones I listed above?...even though they yeild some of the best fighters?
In your reply, explain 'useless.' I always thought that referred to lack of use...lack of ability to use...Judo does not fit into that category...if you or your sensei think it does, go to a Judo tournament and see how tough they are...and if you can think fast enough as you're getting thrown, tuck your chin and breath out as you get slammed onto the mat...this way you won't lose your wind as you collide with the earth faster and harder than you ever thought possible. There is a big one in Phila., PA in a few months...called the Liberty Bell classic. It's in March, I'll be there, I weigh about 165 pounds. If you or your sensei fit into my weight class, come on out and I'll show you how NOT useless it is. If I seem to take particular offense to this and seem rude, perhaps you should re-read your post and put a bit more thought into the wording.

Top
#117026 - 11/16/03 10:54 AM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
Judokid Offline
Member

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 184
[QUOTE]Originally posted by immrtldragon:
Judo has evolved into a sport that can be used for self-defense...I'll give you that. I'll also give you that it may not have been Kano's intentions. Judo has evolved, like anything else that wants to survive and flourish. Useless?...I doubt it. After claiming it was useless you mentioned: "much like boxing." It is many people's opinion that a trained boxer could destroy most trained Martial Artists...just as it is many (including my) opinion that any Judoka, Thai Boxer, Wrestler, BJJ, etc could destroy most traditional Martial Artists (not all, but most). What system do you study (where your sensei called it a useless sport?). That's a pretty rude statement. Is he un-athletic? What other sports are useless? The ones I listed above?...even though they yeild some of the best fighters?
In your reply, explain 'useless.' I always thought that referred to lack of use...lack of ability to use...Judo does not fit into that category...if you or your sensei think it does, go to a Judo tournament and see how tough they are...and if you can think fast enough as you're getting thrown, tuck your chin and breath out as you get slammed onto the mat...this way you won't lose your wind as you collide with the earth faster and harder than you ever thought possible. There is a big one in Phila., PA in a few months...called the Liberty Bell classic. It's in March, I'll be there, I weigh about 165 pounds. If you or your sensei fit into my weight class, come on out and I'll show you how NOT useless it is. If I seem to take particular offense to this and seem rude, perhaps you should re-read your post and put a bit more thought into the wording.
[/QUOTE]

NICE RESPONCE!! I hope to be there, too. I weigh 154 pounds, so, same goes for me!!!

Top
#117027 - 11/16/03 12:10 PM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
also you should understand some of the reasons WHY judo has becomg more sporting.
is has to do with politics (not judo politics but japanese politics)...martial arts and combat were not popular and considered taboo....and the kodokan was FORCED to close for a time!....the only way they were allowed to reopen it was to convince the ruling powers that their goal was to make better people to serve their country (which was ALWAYS true)...and better citizens in generaland not about combat or hurting others. thus...the kodokan reopened and judo as we know it today was born.
but like the previous posts....it is very unwise to underestimate judo...after all its roots DO lie in jujutsu!! and the aliveness of the training makes for very practical use against those who are resisting...let alone some dumb punk on the street who watched karate kid and thinks he can fight.

Top
#117028 - 11/16/03 02:34 PM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
Judodoc, you are planning to go to the Liberty Bell Classic? Where do you live? There usually are people from all over at that one...last year there were like 600 competitors. My club actually runs the tournament...I hope my neck heals so I can start training...it's been hurting for 9 months now...actually just before the last Liberty Bell is when I hurt it.

Top
#117029 - 11/16/03 09:33 PM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
Lowdown Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 86
Loc: singapore
guys guys guys!u got me all wrong!i was saying taht becasue of sport,they took out the pressure points and striking and joint locking.they said that it was not safe.and if u had read the article i posted about yudo,you will see taht becuase yudo(korean judo)did not become a sport,it can be used effectively as a self defense.(im not saying judo cant be!)

[This message has been edited by Lowdown (edited 11-16-2003).]

Top
#117030 - 11/17/03 10:50 AM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
I read the article...but you did say it was becoming a USELESS sport...whether that meant useless for self defense or whatever, you still said useless. Because Judo maintains the safety aspect of the full force training (aliveness), some may argue that is why it is more a self defense system than many arts. Check out this article:
http://www.judoinfo.com/sport.htm

Top
#117031 - 11/17/03 04:39 PM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
i think i can be of assistance here lowdown.
1. they only removed some joint locks from jujutsu to make judo...ie the real dangerous ones that will break bones if practiced full force.
2. i study kyusho jutsu (pressure points)...and believe me when i say...they are NOT safe(in this context, they ARE safe to learn and practice in a CONTROLLED invironment with a good instructor (of kyusho that is not just any old art)) there is NO WAY to actively practice kyusho in an alive or full force manner without something very very bad happening! that is why they were removed. (that is also why some deny the use of pressure point as futile)
3. even the throws in judo are done differently (not worse, nor better) to allow students to breakfall, conversely many of "traditional" jujutsu's throws can not really be practiced full force without serious injury. however if you know judo...only very slight modifications will allow you to do it the "jujtusu way"...not that you would have to because any throw on concrete applied on someone with no ukemi knowledge is...well potentially devastating.
4: it is not judo's goal to hurt or injure people (although it is certainly capable of this) it is to make you a better person in all respects.
5. judo is valid simply because it CAN BE and IS practiced full force against a resisting (and also skilled) opponent, who is not only NOT letting you throw him...but is trying to throw you first!

Top
#117032 - 11/17/03 08:37 PM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
Lowdown Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 86
Loc: singapore
thnx guys for your opinions and ur comments.now i look at judo at something different thnx.but when kemp jutsu said about joint locks.if they removed the dangerous ones,will the non lethal ones still be of any combat use?and if they dint remove pressure points or joint locks.how about doing them at least force?are pressure points that deadly?anyway thnx again


[This message has been edited by Lowdown (edited 11-17-2003).]

Top
#117033 - 11/18/03 09:01 AM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
Lowdown, the techniques taken out could not be done forcefully without danger, but the ones left in are used lightly. A way to win a Judo competition is throw your opponent forcefully and cleanly on their back -- or -- choke them until they tap out -- or -- armbar them until they tap out -- or -- pin them for 25 seconds. The armbars and chokes could be painful (armbars - breaking limbs if the opponent doesn't tap) or deadly (continue choking the person). People tap to avoid dying or breaking arms. The techniques left in Judo are still potentially deadly.

Top
#117034 - 11/18/03 02:05 PM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
judodoc Offline
Member

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 152
Loc: Charlottesville VA USA
Immrtldragon my competition days are past although I still play randori fairly enthusiastically. I may go to the liberty bell however if any of our gang is competing. We are in central Va.
Va state championships are March 6 or 7 in Charlottesville btw, open to all. I will be there as the guess what, doc.

Top
#117035 - 11/19/03 07:35 AM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
I'm impressed by your vigorous defence of Judo, Mr. dragon, even if I am slightly cautious of your assertion that traditional arts are less effective than combat sports.

I also think there is quite a bit of truth in what lowdown has to say. Any sport has to be self regulating, by that I mean it has to have rules. Training with a set of rules in mind, however sub-consciously, CAN be a misleading experience. The further Judo goes down the sporting road, the greater prominence these rules recieve, and Judoka take it as read that certain things wont happen to them when they perform some techniques. There are techniques in Judo that leave nage vulnerable to a follow up from uke, only that follow up is outwith the rules and so never comes. That is, I believe, the unavoidable danger with training a combat sport for self defence.

Judo has perfectly good self defence applications, I am myself a great admirer of Judo for self defence, but it is rarely trained in that way. A lot of modern Judoka don't train in the kata for example, and atemi waza is never introduced into their training, even though these were a part of Kano's art.

I think what lowdown is doing is cautioning us against complacency, and reminding us that Judo does have other sides apart from the sporting one which pre-dominates modern training. We should keep the whole art alive, not just parts of it.

Budo

Top
#117036 - 11/19/03 11:17 AM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
Lowdown Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 86
Loc: singapore
yea cato u really read my mind taht was just what i acutally meant to say and thnx for ur comments guys!

[This message has been edited by Lowdown (edited 11-19-2003).]

Top
#117037 - 11/19/03 11:54 AM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
Cato, I hear what your saying and it makes sense...but any Judoka that has half a brain realizes the rules don't apply to actual combat. I think training with self-defense in mind is the ultimate...I actually rarely compete and like the training for the defense applications. Also, my opinion about sporting arts being more functional for defense than traditional arts is simply that...my opinion. It is based on the exeriences I have had in traditional arts. As well, my post states MOST traditional arts/artists...not all. There are exceptions. I was just giving my beliefs based on what I have seen and done. I am probably one of the minority on this forum that feels there is a worth to kata and that Aikido (first traditional art I thought of) can be a potent form of self-defense. I was just defending Judo because I honestly felt that it was attacked unjustly by the original post. As Judo does train with rules, so does all other arts. Our rule may be, no punching or kicking an opponent...a traditional martial art as MOST I have seen practiced have one rule...don't really hit me, just stop short. Those examples may be broad generalizations, but again they are based on my opinions through experience. My posts are not now and were never meant to attack traditional martial arts/artists. If I have offended anyone, I apologize (exept Lowdown, jk). But seriously, I have tried Aikido and liked it a lot. I wanted to continue training, but the time/money/travelling involved is just too impractical for me at this time. So, in short, I feel all MA have rules in their training and they all need to be worked around for self-defense...however, I feel that Judo may need less adaptation than traditional arts with (no)(?) rules...even though the lack of rules in them takes away the contact and actual attack which is needed to defend. Always exceptions to every rule though.

Top
#117038 - 11/19/03 02:23 PM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by judodoc:
Immrtldragon my competition days are past although I still play randori fairly enthusiastically. I may go to the liberty bell however if any of our gang is competing. We are in central Va.
Va state championships are March 6 or 7 in Charlottesville btw, open to all. I will be there as the guess what, doc.
[/QUOTE]

The Liberty Bell Classic is March 27, 28 this year. This will (hopefully, depending on neck injury), be my first year competing in the Liberty Bell. I hope I can get in shape before hand...I just trained for the first time the other night and I got ipponed twice...in addition my neck hurts again. I'm going to still train though...see if it gets worse. The VA tournament sounds cool, but it is rare for me to get the chance to travel for competitions...broke college guy. If I get out there, I will post ahead of time though...we can randori a little.

Judokid...how old are you? Do you live in the Phila area or will you be travelling to Liberty Bell if you attend? Even if I can't fight, I'll be there to help out.

Top
#117039 - 11/21/03 03:26 PM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
Judokid Offline
Member

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 184
Sorry it took me so long to reply---
I talked to my mom about it, and I really don't think that i can go. however, if I try to show it to my dad, he will probably want me to go. NMy mom had very little clue what I was talking about, but my dad loves the idea of my progressing in Judo. There's really only a slim chance that I would end up going, since I live several hours from Philadelphia, but we go to PA a lot, so there still is a chance, however slim. I'll ask him when he gets home in a few days, or sooner.

Top
#117040 - 11/22/03 07:57 PM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
lowdown,
you asked if you could put the lethal techniques back into judo and just do them lightly (would this not be jujutsu then?)
have you ever choked someone properly, its VERY EASY....and requires VERY LITTLE pressure. same with joint locks, very little pressure is needed to cause extreme amounts of pain which can in itsself render an opponent immobile, and with just a SLIGHT bit of too much force and you have a shattered wrist or elbow on your hands...so NO you CANT practice some of the more lethal jujutsu locks chokes and throws safely in this context.
all this talk about "alive" training (i am all for it)...however these people know nothing about kyusho!!
to an extent you might be able to get away with doing some joint locks and things...but with kyusho...let me tell you a very light slap to your jaw is all it takes to end a fight if done properly, and in an "alive" training session such as randori...the dojo would be littered with unconcious(or worse) people. and i would guarantee that the sensei would not be able to watch all "pairs" of people throroughly...therefore could not possible know what pressure points were used to effect the knockout, therefore would not know which to use to revive the uke!!
kyusho in an "alive" environment....BAD IDEA!
(there are SOME points you could get away with, but given the levels of force used in randori and such things....it would be very likely that you would have broken bones all over the dojo)...let me explain a little.
there is for example a pressure point on the back of your arm (no i am not going to say exactly where) that when STRUCK(not pressed or rubbed as they will not work for this point) straight into the bone(angle and direction are EVERYTHING), it sends a message to your brain that the arm is about to be broken, therefore your brain responds by "releasing" your shoulder muscles, so you get a dislocated shoulder instead of a broken arm. you can hit this point safely if done very very lightly...but in randori im sure you can imagine the possiblities!!
(on angle and direction....if these are not correct pressure points will not work...and also why some people say it doesnt work...they are doing it wrong lol) sorry for the pp rant

Top
#117041 - 11/22/03 10:53 PM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
Lowdown Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 86
Loc: singapore
wow im surprised taht this topic is still hot and big.but hey kempo i want u to read this http://www.street-self-defense.com/
and read the whole article!!!see waht they say!

[This message has been edited by Lowdown (edited 11-22-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Lowdown (edited 11-22-2003).]

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >


Moderator:  Ames, Cord, Fletch1, MattJ, Reiki, Taison 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Ryukyu Art
Artifacts from the Ryukyu Kingdom missing since WWII. Visit www.ShisaLion.Org to view pictures

Best Stun Guns
Self Defense Products-stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and more

Surveillance 4U
Complete surveillance systems for covert operations or secure installation security

Asylum Images
Book presents photo tour of the Trans-Allegany Lunatic Asylum. A must if you're going to take a ghost tour!

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga