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#117024 - 11/16/03 07:54 AM judo becoming a useless sport........
Lowdown Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 86
Loc: singapore
hi guys.judo is becoming a useless sport and it is said by many people(inculding my sensei) in 20 years time,the martial art of judo will become something like a sport totally just like boxing.is there anything we can do to save judo before it becomes a sport?as the founder never intended to become a sport he even crticised sport judo saying taht it is becoming a sport that only uses stretngh and muscle rather than the old school judo that uses timing and leverage.when kodokan judo was first founded,if u read one of the old books of the kodokan history,ALL of the techinses were done witouht the gi and was used to self defense rather than sport.it had joint locks pressure points and striking very smillar to jujitsu .it was known as a safer part of jujitsu.is there anyway to save kodokan judo from becoming a sport?post ur opinions people.......... take a look at this too! http://www.kmaia-usa.org/resources/articles/yudo.htm

[This message has been edited by Lowdown (edited 11-16-2003).]

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#117025 - 11/16/03 09:55 AM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
Judo has evolved into a sport that can be used for self-defense...I'll give you that. I'll also give you that it may not have been Kano's intentions. Judo has evolved, like anything else that wants to survive and flourish. Useless?...I doubt it. After claiming it was useless you mentioned: "much like boxing." It is many people's opinion that a trained boxer could destroy most trained Martial Artists...just as it is many (including my) opinion that any Judoka, Thai Boxer, Wrestler, BJJ, etc could destroy most traditional Martial Artists (not all, but most). What system do you study (where your sensei called it a useless sport?). That's a pretty rude statement. Is he un-athletic? What other sports are useless? The ones I listed above?...even though they yeild some of the best fighters?
In your reply, explain 'useless.' I always thought that referred to lack of use...lack of ability to use...Judo does not fit into that category...if you or your sensei think it does, go to a Judo tournament and see how tough they are...and if you can think fast enough as you're getting thrown, tuck your chin and breath out as you get slammed onto the mat...this way you won't lose your wind as you collide with the earth faster and harder than you ever thought possible. There is a big one in Phila., PA in a few months...called the Liberty Bell classic. It's in March, I'll be there, I weigh about 165 pounds. If you or your sensei fit into my weight class, come on out and I'll show you how NOT useless it is. If I seem to take particular offense to this and seem rude, perhaps you should re-read your post and put a bit more thought into the wording.

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#117026 - 11/16/03 10:54 AM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
Judokid Offline
Member

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 184
[QUOTE]Originally posted by immrtldragon:
Judo has evolved into a sport that can be used for self-defense...I'll give you that. I'll also give you that it may not have been Kano's intentions. Judo has evolved, like anything else that wants to survive and flourish. Useless?...I doubt it. After claiming it was useless you mentioned: "much like boxing." It is many people's opinion that a trained boxer could destroy most trained Martial Artists...just as it is many (including my) opinion that any Judoka, Thai Boxer, Wrestler, BJJ, etc could destroy most traditional Martial Artists (not all, but most). What system do you study (where your sensei called it a useless sport?). That's a pretty rude statement. Is he un-athletic? What other sports are useless? The ones I listed above?...even though they yeild some of the best fighters?
In your reply, explain 'useless.' I always thought that referred to lack of use...lack of ability to use...Judo does not fit into that category...if you or your sensei think it does, go to a Judo tournament and see how tough they are...and if you can think fast enough as you're getting thrown, tuck your chin and breath out as you get slammed onto the mat...this way you won't lose your wind as you collide with the earth faster and harder than you ever thought possible. There is a big one in Phila., PA in a few months...called the Liberty Bell classic. It's in March, I'll be there, I weigh about 165 pounds. If you or your sensei fit into my weight class, come on out and I'll show you how NOT useless it is. If I seem to take particular offense to this and seem rude, perhaps you should re-read your post and put a bit more thought into the wording.
[/QUOTE]

NICE RESPONCE!! I hope to be there, too. I weigh 154 pounds, so, same goes for me!!!

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#117027 - 11/16/03 12:10 PM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
also you should understand some of the reasons WHY judo has becomg more sporting.
is has to do with politics (not judo politics but japanese politics)...martial arts and combat were not popular and considered taboo....and the kodokan was FORCED to close for a time!....the only way they were allowed to reopen it was to convince the ruling powers that their goal was to make better people to serve their country (which was ALWAYS true)...and better citizens in generaland not about combat or hurting others. thus...the kodokan reopened and judo as we know it today was born.
but like the previous posts....it is very unwise to underestimate judo...after all its roots DO lie in jujutsu!! and the aliveness of the training makes for very practical use against those who are resisting...let alone some dumb punk on the street who watched karate kid and thinks he can fight.

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#117028 - 11/16/03 02:34 PM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
Judodoc, you are planning to go to the Liberty Bell Classic? Where do you live? There usually are people from all over at that one...last year there were like 600 competitors. My club actually runs the tournament...I hope my neck heals so I can start training...it's been hurting for 9 months now...actually just before the last Liberty Bell is when I hurt it.

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#117029 - 11/16/03 09:33 PM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
Lowdown Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 86
Loc: singapore
guys guys guys!u got me all wrong!i was saying taht becasue of sport,they took out the pressure points and striking and joint locking.they said that it was not safe.and if u had read the article i posted about yudo,you will see taht becuase yudo(korean judo)did not become a sport,it can be used effectively as a self defense.(im not saying judo cant be!)

[This message has been edited by Lowdown (edited 11-16-2003).]

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#117030 - 11/17/03 10:50 AM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
I read the article...but you did say it was becoming a USELESS sport...whether that meant useless for self defense or whatever, you still said useless. Because Judo maintains the safety aspect of the full force training (aliveness), some may argue that is why it is more a self defense system than many arts. Check out this article:
http://www.judoinfo.com/sport.htm

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#117031 - 11/17/03 04:39 PM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
i think i can be of assistance here lowdown.
1. they only removed some joint locks from jujutsu to make judo...ie the real dangerous ones that will break bones if practiced full force.
2. i study kyusho jutsu (pressure points)...and believe me when i say...they are NOT safe(in this context, they ARE safe to learn and practice in a CONTROLLED invironment with a good instructor (of kyusho that is not just any old art)) there is NO WAY to actively practice kyusho in an alive or full force manner without something very very bad happening! that is why they were removed. (that is also why some deny the use of pressure point as futile)
3. even the throws in judo are done differently (not worse, nor better) to allow students to breakfall, conversely many of "traditional" jujutsu's throws can not really be practiced full force without serious injury. however if you know judo...only very slight modifications will allow you to do it the "jujtusu way"...not that you would have to because any throw on concrete applied on someone with no ukemi knowledge is...well potentially devastating.
4: it is not judo's goal to hurt or injure people (although it is certainly capable of this) it is to make you a better person in all respects.
5. judo is valid simply because it CAN BE and IS practiced full force against a resisting (and also skilled) opponent, who is not only NOT letting you throw him...but is trying to throw you first!

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#117032 - 11/17/03 08:37 PM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
Lowdown Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 86
Loc: singapore
thnx guys for your opinions and ur comments.now i look at judo at something different thnx.but when kemp jutsu said about joint locks.if they removed the dangerous ones,will the non lethal ones still be of any combat use?and if they dint remove pressure points or joint locks.how about doing them at least force?are pressure points that deadly?anyway thnx again


[This message has been edited by Lowdown (edited 11-17-2003).]

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#117033 - 11/18/03 09:01 AM Re: judo becoming a useless sport........
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
Lowdown, the techniques taken out could not be done forcefully without danger, but the ones left in are used lightly. A way to win a Judo competition is throw your opponent forcefully and cleanly on their back -- or -- choke them until they tap out -- or -- armbar them until they tap out -- or -- pin them for 25 seconds. The armbars and chokes could be painful (armbars - breaking limbs if the opponent doesn't tap) or deadly (continue choking the person). People tap to avoid dying or breaking arms. The techniques left in Judo are still potentially deadly.

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