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#116988 - 11/05/03 03:13 AM Re: kano...a master of jujutsu?
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Good points, lads. The thing that strikes me is that the throws in judo are more powerfull than the ones in most jujutsu styles. I would put this down to judo utilising all of uke's momentum to effect the throw. Many ju jutsu styles teach strike then throw, and whilst the strike is clearly combat effective it does have the disadvantage of stopping uke in his tracks as well.

A well executed judo throw would stop most people getting up again, even without a great deal of modification.

Budo

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#116989 - 11/06/03 03:26 AM Re: kano...a master of jujutsu?
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
agreed.
but at least for me that strike is essential...feels more comfortable to me...a good insurance policy...when im reaching through to grab an arm to effect a throw...hell im goin through anyway..may as well smash some ribs on the way...thus their mind is no longer on attacking me or resisting me...boom hes thrown.
however if i dont hit him he is free to try to do alot of different things to me...and well since my back is to the opponent there may not be much i could do to stop him.
that is one of the first things i was taught...and was always stressed.
dont turn your back to your opponent...unless you distract him sufficiently with one or two strikes first...and then only long enough to throw him....lock him...whatever.
then again...your average joe should be no problem for either approach. i am just more comfortable with the strike added in.

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#116990 - 11/06/03 05:26 AM Re: kano...a master of jujutsu?
UKfightfreak Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kempo_jujitsu:
i agree, even today you can learn alot in 5 yrs if you really apply yourself..but a "master"[/QUOTE]

It takes 5 years to qualify to become a General Practitioner (GP - Doctor). I would call a doctor a "Master" of what they do.

If you you trained 3 times a week, in 5 years you would probably get a black belt in Martial arts such as Karate, if you trained 3 times a day in the same art, I'm sure you would be a blackbelt a lot sooner.

if you take the hours instead of the years it would be about about 780 hours for a person training 3 times a week over 5 years.

Where as training for 3 hours a day for 5 years would be 5475 hours. So if you put it like this Kano could have trained for 30 of our Martial Arts years before he started Judo.

Obviously the above is not based as I have no idea how regularly Kano trained but you see my point.

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#116991 - 12/19/05 03:54 PM Re: kano...a master of jujutsu? [Re: kempo_jujitsu]
BigRod Offline
Does it all

Registered: 02/10/05
Posts: 736
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Well, I guess you have to define the term "master".

At any rate, if you're training every day, possibly all day every day, it doesn't take forever to "master" an art, despite what some would have us believe.

Quote:

...however the men who actually fought were people who were students of classical jujutsu ryuha...not necessarily "judo" practitioners




That was the whole point of the competitions, to show that his Judo and way of training was superior. And it's only logical that they didn't compete against other Judo students, he was the only one teaching Judo, so how could they compete against other Judo students!?! And yes, I realize others used the term Judo, but I'm refering to Kodokan Judo, the art developed by Kano, which at the time was unique.


Also, Kano started training as a young boy, so he studied for far more than 5 years. I just posted a thread with a link to a very long article on the history of Kano and his Judo. It's still on the front page. Read it, lots of good stuff in it.

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#116992 - 12/20/05 01:27 PM Re: kano...a master of jujutsu? [Re: BigRod]
frankdelisle Offline
Stranger

Registered: 09/30/05
Posts: 4
According to the biography I read, Kano was in his mid to late teens when beginning jujutsu.

As far as Kano being a master, I'd say it's very possible. His teachers were pretty old men as I recall who I think would of poured everything they had into him because he was one of the last (You know how, as men, we desire to pass on what we know).

On top of that, Kano received the books of one of the styles.

What do you need to be a master? I'd say all the knowledge of the style with the ability to apply it makes him a master.

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#116993 - 12/21/05 04:37 PM Re: kano...a master of jujutsu? [Re: frankdelisle]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I've read somewhere that Kano brought many older JJ masters to Kodokan in part because he needed the support and recognition of other JJ masters to allow his style to flourish.

As for the name 'Judo', it is perhaps important to note that for some time it was known as 'Kano Jujitsu'. I actually have a book from 1920's in English under that title.
_________________________
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#116994 - 12/23/05 05:26 AM Re: kano...a master of jujutsu? [Re: kempo_jujitsu]
Layzie_Bone Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/16/05
Posts: 5
Apparently Kano isn't much of a jujutsu master considering he was so easily defeated by Sonya.
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#116995 - 01/18/06 07:49 AM Re: kano...a master of jujutsu? [Re: kempo_jujitsu]
azjudoaikijitsu Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Mesa Az
Quote:

on the contrary, i think you are right on, kano was just gifted, a fast learner, and his business was teaching, and organizing, and he put them to good use to help preserve fighting spirit of jujutsu, while making it safe for ALL to practice....and in doing so he raised the popularity of jujutsu as well.
having a good teacher is everything, if you cant understand something, then they put it in terms to make you understand, and thats what he was good at. he also stated that he chose the name judo to EMPHASIZE the concept of ju...as he didnt agree with some of the older masters interpretations of the principle of ju.





Kano's genius was taking older jujitsu and putting it into a clear logical pattern of planned teaching, and adding randori. He saw the flaws in the way JJ was taught, which was usually by kata or ver coreographed randori, as opposed to free sparring. Many JJ schools were basically a large "bag of tricks" but were not taught in an organized plan. Kano did have many JJ's from other school's come train, but hi genius was in synthesizing them all into a coherent art

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