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#116909 - 10/16/03 06:59 PM IMPORTANT- Grappling Strength
Judokid Offline
Member

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 184
I saw this topic mentioned in the Are You Strong Enough? forum, in the Strengthening section, started by UKFIGHTFREAK. This topic is very important for Judoka. The specific requirements (i.g.500situps) were only really applicabple to arts that include kicking. This really sparked my interest, since I would like to form a specific personal program for Judo/Self Defense. A little muscle definition wouldn't hurt either, but the top priority is pure strength. Does anyone know a lot about this, know a site that addresses this, or, most importantly, know specific requirements to be "strong enough" for Judo??It would be very appreciated, and thank you all in advance.

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#116910 - 10/17/03 12:41 PM Re: IMPORTANT- Grappling Strength
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
I think that being "strong enough" to perform Judo or any art depends on you. Strength training is definitely a good idea, but doing 100 pushups is more of a test of muscle endurance than strength. There are an unlimited amount of opinions on how strong you should be to do something, but it's pretty much B/S. I lift weights a lot (mainly because I like to), but there are people in my Judo Club who are not nearly as strong as me or have as much muscle endurance, but can either hold their own or have an edge on me. I don't think strengthening is a bad idea though (like I said, I do it and love it)...I would recommend http://www.exrx.net/ for the most honest/accurate information I have found. I have taken college courses on health/phys ed/kinesiology and the website above matches what I have found in college textbooks.

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#116911 - 10/19/03 04:43 AM Re: IMPORTANT- Grappling Strength
UKfightfreak Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco
The high reps of situps and press ups etc. is merely a platform for athletic form. It is not so much going to help you with your art, it will merely make your body strong enough to be able to learn the art.

The exercises such as 500 sit ups are for muscle endurance, but that is why you split workouts into speed, strenth and endurance. The endurance is the longest in coming but it also provides the best base for speed and strength.

Just listen to practitioners - or normally ex-practitioners who will make statements such as 'Judo did my back in' or 'I damaged my shoulder doing judo' and the same with 'Karate did my knees in'.

Non of the above arts actaully did this it was just their bodies were not strong enough to be able to do the art in the first place - remember with all arts people just had a much harder life when they were conceived - manual jobs etc so there was less need for the endurance.

For pure power think low reps high weight but in all honesty if you haven't developed the slow twich fibres (the ones developed by endurance) you could be at risk of damaging yourself.

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#116912 - 10/19/03 02:13 PM Re: IMPORTANT- Grappling Strength
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
i agree brute strength is definately not a bad thing to have...but isnt judo supposed to be based on the fact that you dont need to be strong to make it work...leverage, mechanics and such...
After watching a Judo tournament, Kano reportedly gathered the participants together and told them:

"You fought like young bulls locking horns; there was nothing refined or dignified about any of the techniques I witnessed today. I never taught anyone to do Kodokan Judo like that. If all you can think about is winning through brute strength, that will be the end of Kodokan Judo."
just a thought...maybe you need inner strength (confidence, focus etc) instead of mere physical strength...i think as far as the physical elements go, endurance and cardiovascular work is more important than pure strength. that way you have to learn to use the techniques without forcing them.
only my opinion that is on technique...but i think the point of "being strong enough" is aobut being durable enough...tough enough.

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#116913 - 10/19/03 06:22 PM Re: IMPORTANT- Grappling Strength
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
ANY art that is based upon brute strength is great, as long as you plan on being the strongest guy in the fight or in the gym.

If you are facing a lot of guys that are smaller and weaker than you, you don't need great technique do you?! If you're facing guys that are heavier and stronger than you are, that strength will be of no avail. Without technique, you're destined to fail.

Technique should be one's only focus. It's not to say that having strength is worthless as it obviously is not. Strength as a substitute for technique IS however.

-John

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#116914 - 10/20/03 04:55 PM Re: IMPORTANT- Grappling Strength
judodoc Offline
Member

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 152
Loc: Charlottesville VA USA
It is a fine line. I have found in the past that when I actively lift weights to improve my Judo it usually degrades my Judo because I go on the mat feeling all strong and rely on that at the expense of technique.
When I am out of shape I go out and concentrate on technique to overcome the more conditioned people.
Still when facing long standing partners of equal ability it is always nice to slip in some extra strength training on the side and then surprise them with a sudden unexpected burst that tips the balance.

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#116915 - 10/20/03 05:42 PM Re: IMPORTANT- Grappling Strength
UKfightfreak Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco
I'm just talking about being strong enough so you don't get injured - not being stronger than everybody else.

My suggestions are based on everybody being strong enough to avoid injury.

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#116916 - 10/21/03 10:19 AM Re: IMPORTANT- Grappling Strength
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
Okay, UKFF, I apologize...I misunderstood the purpose of being "strong enough." But still, who developed that criteria? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, just curious.

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#116917 - 10/21/03 10:41 AM Re: IMPORTANT- Grappling Strength
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
I've yet to meet a good Judoka, that I didn't consider strong.

JohnL

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#116918 - 10/21/03 07:44 PM Re: IMPORTANT- Grappling Strength
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
It takes muscle to pull your pants up so, muscle is used in everything you do. In that sense, it's beneficial to strengthen ourselves in ways which are directly related to things we use in grappling. This doesn't replace technique however, it ASSISTS technique.

In other words, do leg extensions and hamstring curls to assist the "Scissor sweep" found in BJJ and judo. It will make your sweep more explosive.

That's the way I look at strength issues.

-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 10-21-2003).]

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#116919 - 10/22/03 12:30 PM Re: IMPORTANT- Grappling Strength
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
John, couldn't agree more. Leg exercises, I feel, are more important in grappling than anything else (such as upper body). They are both important, but it is scary to see how many people neglect leg curls/extensions and squats. Since concentrating more of my efforts on leg strength and keeping them flexible, my Judo has improved to another level. Sports specific exercises are the way to go, otherwise you run the risk of reversing your progress in said art/sport. The squats and flexibilty, for example, have greatly increased my explosiveness once I get my hips under my opponent...and have helped me get there faster.

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#116920 - 05/31/04 02:56 PM Re: IMPORTANT- Grappling Strength
Anonymous
Unregistered


You know people...being strong is not even close to the biggest factor, where would the best fighters be wothout their tecgniques...you people are obviously not in tune with the intricasies of skilled performance and rely on brute strength. Offcourse, strength is an important factor but technique is better...you have to know how to use your strength.

Antonio Rodrigo bet Bob "the beast Sapp" by an armbar....what does this tell you. A man half the weight amd querter of the strength of Bob Sapp could deal with him.

Although this may sound a bit unbilievable I saw this Muay Thia fighter that had 90 wins and nil loses and draw....he was very small and skinny....didn't seem like he could give a lot....but he was extremely fast and tripped the guy up breaking his colar bone

later all

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#116921 - 04/28/05 01:22 PM Re: IMPORTANT- Grappling Strength
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi, I practice judo in the UK and I've done it for over 10 years, and although I agree that strength is an important aspect of my judo, I should not need to rely on it if I am that good of an judoka! I prefer to go by the Kyu Shin Do theory of judo, which is that technique and speed will lead me to win and not my strength. I am not a fan of pick-ups, but if I was, is where I would use strength, but that would mean it would be better for me to play Rugby and just enter the competitions. I like the use of combinations, and that is skill, and tactics, without the need of strength. I am not encouraging people not to use strength, as it is what they are comfortable with that matters. I just believe that Judo is what it is because it isn't like other martial arts, because I can beat anyone if I was quick enough and had enough skill.

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