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#116760 - 06/08/03 10:38 AM Judo or Jujutsu
dawgzog Offline
Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 36
What is the difference between jujutsu and judo? Arent they about the same? Which is more deadlier and how?

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#116761 - 06/15/03 08:41 AM Re: Judo or Jujutsu
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
you must grasp the concepts of JUTSU and DO.
JUTSU (means art, skill or science) hence jujutsu is the gentle art, or science of softness (not a kindness or heart, but of yeilding to the opponents force, redirecting it etc.)
DO means way or path, as in chinese taoism (tao is same as do) so judo is the gentle way...these arts tend to concentrate more on asthetics (looks), competition sports and tournaments, moral character, and generally making you a better person. they concentrate on the "path", not just the technical aspects. but also remember within jujutsu is the warrior code of bushiDO (emphasize the do aspect) so it could be said that jujutsu practitioners (samurai) seperated the two..juJUTSU for fighting, and bushiDO for the other aspects mentioned above. this is applicable to many arts..samurai swordsmanship for instance..you have kenJUTSU which became kenDO...iaiJUTSU which became iaiDO. aikiJUTSU which became aikiDO. karate JUTSU which became karate DO..etc. etc. jutsu arts buJUTSU and DO arts are buDO..bu means martial or military. (martial science or art/ and martial "way" respectively) jutsu arts are older real combat methods, and do aspects are derived from them for other "higher" purposes. but thats not to say do arts are not effective.
which is deadlier, id have to say jujutsu because jigoro kano purposely removed many of the lethal techniques of jujutsu so judo could be taught to school children and the general public and because judo is a grappling art..throws, locks chokes, and holds. jujutsu is a complete system, containg all of the above plus atemi waza and kyusho jutsu, striking vital areas, and pressure points. also katsu (kappo) or resuscination techniques are part of both but not taught much nowadays
i hope this helps!!

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#116762 - 08/30/03 12:09 PM Re: Judo or Jujutsu
gus Offline
Member

Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 67
Loc: dixon calif.usa
when dr kano promoted kodokan judo.he made a judo gi different from others to prevent injuries (mat burns)elimanated dangerous waza,(saved them in kata)came up with the consept of kusushi.even devised a new form of ukemi.kick ,blows elimanated.ateme is still practiced in kata.mutual welfare and benefit.maximum results with mimnimum effort.dr Kano's theory

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#116763 - 08/30/03 06:09 PM Re: Judo or Jujutsu
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
If you are talking about Japanese Jujutsu it is what was described above...but if you are talking about Brazilian Jujutsu it is something different. I never got very involved with BJJ but it seems to be takedowns and matwork. As for Japanese Jujustsu and Judo the above descriptions are accurate to my knowledge: however, and with the risk of sounding like JKogas, traditional Japanese Jujutsu is usually practiced with compliant opponents, whereas Judo is alive (as Kogas would put it). Judo may have had some elements removed to make it safe to practice, but it is certainly an effective art (for sport or actual fighting). A judoka knows how to fall and practises on a mat, if you throw a typical person in a real situation on a hard surface, at the least you will knock the wind out of them and have them on the ground. I am definitely not saying that all Japanese Jujutsu students practice cooperatively, but all Judo schools practice with resistance. Also, I am not knocking any style, I just really love Judo and think it is one of the best to train in (for sport or self-defense).

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#116764 - 08/30/03 10:31 PM Re: Judo or Jujutsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


BJJ has some standing techniques, mostly concerned with getting opponent on ground and fighting from there.
BJJ is actualy from judo, pre wwII judo-different animal than todays judo(ie. grapevining still included)
Changed to jujitsu because of attitude.

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#116765 - 09/01/03 03:59 AM Re: Judo or Jujutsu
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
i have heard that bjj is called jujutsu because maeda was banished from the kodokan by jigoro kano, so what he taught to gracie..he called jujutsu even though technically it was judo.
yeah, jujutsu-ka train with "semi cooperative" opponents...that way there are no broken bones, separated joints, or dead students in the dojo. in judo you can go all out because alot of those techniques are simply not there. by semi cooperative i mean if you try to wrench me down with a lock..i am not going to fight it...but i am not going to just fall over for you either.
i like both judo and jujutsu. most jujutsu schools (not bjj) dont teach enough groundfighting though, some do but not many that ive seen...thats where judo(or bjj, sambo etc) comes in.

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#116766 - 09/01/03 01:30 PM Re: Judo or Jujutsu
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
Kempo, that info you posted about Maeda was really interesting. Do you know of any sites that I could read more about that...I never knew BJJ may have had such strong roots to Judo; I always assumed it was a direct decendant of Jujutsu.

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#116767 - 09/01/03 03:25 PM Re: Judo or Jujutsu
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
immortal...i dont even remember where i heard about that. i also heard that you can go back and check, and see no record of maeda at the kodokan because they removed his name.
interestingly...the gracies will tell you it is jujutsu not judo, because judo is a sport. i guess the way i see it gracie jujutsu is "old school" judo(probably wrong) but....the history of judo, originally it was NOT a sport, it was to preserve traditional jujutsu in a safer environment to train in....its moved quite far from these roots now days though. infact ive seen pictures of kano with some of the sensei of the kodokan many of which never trained with kano personally in "judo"...but actually taught traditional jujutsu ryuha, and even weapons such as jo jutsu.
its kind of like that whole "pre war vs. modern aikido" thing...there is modern judo, and there is (arguably) traditional judo. which is said to be preserved best by the koreans actually in their version called yudo, which is all about combat not tournaments, and keeping with the actual things which kano taught.
at one point kano wrote a book (dont remember title) and in it contained kyusho jutsu (pressure points) and kappo jutsu (healing) the book has been republished but with this information left out (for some odd reason). http://judo1.net/ju01002.htm

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#116768 - 09/01/03 05:14 PM Re: Judo or Jujutsu
Geoff Offline
Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 102
Loc: UK
kappo is very dodgy, emergency aid and modern sport therapy is a far better approach for any aspiring judoka. At least you won't have a negligence lawsuit against you if you put someone in the recovery position!

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#116769 - 09/01/03 07:31 PM Re: Judo or Jujutsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


It was Maeda who brought Jiu-Jitsu to Brazil. As a member of the Kodokan, Maeda went to America with his kohai Satake, etc. as Judo ambassadors. He was said to have fought more than 100 fights and in Spanish-speaking countries in Latin America, he was respected as Count Koma (Conde Koma).
Maeda was born in Aomori Prefecture in 1878. When he was a boy, he learned Tenshin (Tenshin Shin'yo) Jiu-Jitsu. He moved to Tokyo when he was about 18 and went to Tokyo Senmon School. He began practicing Judo and a record of him entering the Kodokan is dated 1897. He was very persistant and never gave up on anything. He was naturaly talented in judo and rose through the ranks quickly to establish himself as the most promising young judoka in the Kodokan. Maeda was a small man at 164 cm, 70 kilo.
Maeda would travel also throughout Latin America to fight. In 1915, he ended up in Brazil in a city called Belem. He considered this place to be ideal and settled in Belem which would become his home. He engaged in challenge matches and became famous throughout the region. He also returned to Cuba, Mexico, and the U.S. when necessarily. Maeda was to continue his role as a judo instructor. He taught San Paulo policemen, army college cadets, as well as ordinary citizens. Of course, one of them was a teenage boy by the name of Carlos Gracie, who would perhaps become his most notable student, Carlos Gracie.
Maeda is rumoured to have fought over 2,000 matches in his career; many unrecorded. He traveled throughout Latin America and Europe, taking on all comers. He became a legend in the fighting world and his name is still well known amongst Japanese settlements in the Americas. He only lost two matches in his fighting career. One in the "catch-as-catch-can" world championships held in London. In this tournament, Maeda entered in both the middleweight and heavyweight divisions. He advanced to the semi-finals in the finals in two weight classes. In matches where judo gis were worn, however, Maeda was undefeated-from biography of Maeda
Links and more info can be found at gracie.com

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#116770 - 09/01/03 10:16 PM Re: Judo or Jujutsu
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
Nekogami, very interesting info...I'll definitely check out that site...thanks.

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#116771 - 01/30/04 11:16 PM Re: Judo or Jujutsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


Off the side:
I would say that the Brazilians were lucky the art was exported to them before the ban...


About this Jitsu v.s. Do thing...

Would you agree that the Do was just a cover up to hide the effectiveness of the arts and make them survive the ban?

I mean they left us with the katas (with all of the banned moves in them) to revive/re-engineer the art.

Ju(do)kas do fight Ju(jitsu)kas and win...

Do you consider compliance in training a safe practise when the technique was designed to make the opponent compliant?

Just asking questions [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 01-31-2004).]

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#116772 - 03/02/06 09:44 PM Re: Judo or Jujutsu
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I can see that you are well informed about the history of BJJ, but unfortunately, there is a lot of problems with history. As a hachidan in jujitsu, I'm reasonably familiar with jujitsu techniques, and had one of BJJ's premier players teaching and practicing on the mat across from mine for several years.

I spent endless hours watching what they did and how they did it, and most of what I saw was "bad judo". They were constantly getting injured from being out of position when putting their opponent into a lock or hold-down, and often injured themselves in the effort to realign themselves to "do their techniques".

When they "cross trained" with our judo students, they were constantly getting themselves into bad positions where even our most unskilled judo players were able to pin them or put them into submission holds. While I liked Carlos and thought HE had reasonable explanations for what he was doing, it didn't translate into the students that were coming over to play with our judo club.

The famous film where Mr. Gracie "defeated" one of the Kodokan's legends began with him walking up and kicking the Judoka in the crotch, when they were supposed to be conducting the match with the same tournament rules that were being observed in international judo matches, where that particular tactic isn't allowed, so I view BJJ as having good press relations and less than stable performance standards.

I listened closely while their classes were being taught, and it was training where they were constantly asking "can't we do this..." in very basic situations, and the senior students finding it necessary to "work things out" to answer their questions. They were never willing to say "I don't know", and often gave the biggest B-S answers you have ever heard. The judo players knew when they were "making it up as they went along", because there were lots of times that they would be attempting to do the techniques we had practiced in judo class the day after we practiced them. They seldom got anything right, and it was embarressing (to say the least) to watch an internationally acclaimed martial artist's students bumble their way through some very basic material.

I was practicing judo when there were only 40 basic throws, and judo WAS a self defense art. It too has been "watered down" to make it "sports attractive" to more people, but the old judo techniques still had a lot of the Kito Ryu techniques in it, and they were rife with strikes and punches that made them deadly. I didn't see much, if any, of that in the BJJ practice I observed.

After a couple of years, our BJJ "master" moved away and the BJJ classes sort of collapsed of their own weight. After he left, I found out that he had been charging up to $200 an hour for private instruction to one of the high ranking black belts at the dojo. From the results, he should have saved his money and gone to Brazil, because it certainly didn't translate into "superiority" in the two years I observed it. At least if he had gone to Brazil, he could have enjoyed the carnival.



Please don't misconstrue this as a slam against anyone, but it is based on 40 years plus of jujitsu and judo training, and observing one of the "recognized masters" of BJJ for over two years in "eye to eye" contact.
_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#116773 - 03/02/06 10:52 PM Re: Judo or Jujutsu
OneInchPunchMaster Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 101
Loc: England
BJJ contains many stand up self defence techniques. In our classes, we learn 1-2 self defence techniques each class, and these are stand up techniques. The self defence techniques are all about locks; arm locks, wrist locks, etc. So i guess that BJJ is similiar to JJJ, except that BJJ puts more emphasis on ground fighting. I train in both styles, and to me they are pretty much the same thing except that BJJ puts more focus on ground work as i said. It also depends on what type of BJJ your learning, whether its sport oriented or not. My intructors lineage comes straight from Sylvio Behring, whos father, Flavio Behring was taught under Helio Gracie, so the lineage is straight and direct, and the method i learn is Gracie Jiu Jitsu, which contains alot of focus on self defence techniques.

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#116774 - 03/03/06 05:57 AM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: OneInchPunchMaster]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
In my opinion Judo and Jujutsu* are very similar. Judo however has rules for competition purposes. (Jujutsu lately also knows competitions.)
In training both look alike. Jujutsu starts earlier with atemi-waza then Judo.
Then there is also the difference between Kodokan Judo and Kosen Judo. The later, what I have heared and read, emphasises more on grappling, the first more on throws. (I believe there were also styles named Judo before Dr.Kano.)

In competition, these different styles; Judo, Jujutsu, BJJ and Sambo can make eachother tap.

(I'm not an expert, I only had three lessons in Jujutsu)
Maybe there is some info on this in the Reading Room.

*Japanese / Traditional
_________________________
Ives

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#116775 - 03/03/06 10:54 AM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: immrtldragon]
tritaffy Offline
Stranger

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 1
I've just started practising Judo and JJJ. I find they are opposite sides of the same coin and that they supplement each other.

Judo helps me with my throws in JJJ and JJJ definitely helps with my groundwork in Judo.My instructor is 8th Dan in Jujitsu and 4th Dan in Judo.Our jujitsu is quite traditional and I find that the terminology of both is the same

I enjoy practising both although I do slighly prefer JJJ, however the randori of Judo is excellent.

It's my first post so please be gentle !!

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#116776 - 03/03/06 02:20 PM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: tritaffy]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Quote:

I've just started practising Judo and JJJ. I find they are opposite sides of the same coin and that they supplement each other.

Judo helps me with my throws in JJJ and JJJ definitely helps with my groundwork in Judo.My instructor is 8th Dan in Jujitsu and 4th Dan in Judo.Our jujitsu is quite traditional and I find that the terminology of both is the same

I enjoy practising both although I do slighly prefer JJJ, however the randori of Judo is excellent.

It's my first post so please be gentle !!




I could not agree more. They are brother and sister. What is lacking in one is found in the other for me. Together JJJ and judo work best.

Welcome to the forums and well done on a good post.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#116777 - 03/03/06 06:21 PM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: Prizewriter]
OneInchPunchMaster Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 101
Loc: England
BJJ, Judo and JJJ are very similiar indeed. All 3 have a lineage from Jujutsu, thus all 3 arts borrow lots of locks from JJJ. Only difference is that in JJJ, alot of focus is put on defending yourself, Whilst in Judo, you have alot of emphasis put in takedowns, and BJJ has alot of emphasis put on Ground work. Once could say that these 3 arts are the same thing except with different methods of teaching it.One thing i have noticed is that BJJ has quite alot of "deep" locks, BJJ 'ers will know what i mean by this. Compared to the JJJ locks, the BJJ locks are more deep and are more dangerous.

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#116778 - 03/03/06 09:03 PM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: OneInchPunchMaster]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Something that gets passed over a lot of times is that Kano Sensei studied a number of Judos (named as such) before constructing the set of techniques we now have labeled "Kodokan Judo". He picked and chose from many different styles and selected techniques that were safe to practice, not necessarily for their "battlefield worthiness".

There are a lot of "judo techniques" that are prohibited from competition judo that are still practiced in jujitsu schools all over the world, so if there is a "deeper lock" being practiced in Brazilian Jujitsu, I would suspect that it was simply one (or a group) of techniques that Kano Sensei didn't select for his competitive style because of the injury factor. God knows that even the 65 techniques in the current set have some throws in there that take some superior falling skills to keep from getting killed, but there are some other "old" judo techniques that were just outright dangerous to practice.

Side separations were not allowed to be used until someone had at least sandan falling skills when I first started judo training, and with that very reason in mind. 90% of the time, the uke would land on their collarbone and turn it into mush if they didn't have that level of ukemi, so I would hesitate to start pushing one art over the other, because they are different parts of the same picture.

There isn't much "mutual respect" in jujitsu techniques of any kind, other than the respect for your training partners so you can keep training in most jujitsu styles, so you also have to factor in the philosophical differences you find between what Kano Sensei was trying to accomplish and what is going on in the jujitsu styles he plucked those techniques from. It's also a fact that a lot of what is known about martial arts in the Orient has never found its way into mainstream martial arts in the West, simply because the Japanese and Okinawans wanted to keep the advantage to themselves of certain technique's values.

I also blame some of that loss of understanding on the black belts that hit shodan and think they need to open another school just down the street and "start teaching" their art. It has watered down a lot of systems.

The whole "black belt thing" has gotten out of hand, because the reason you are promoted is to allow you to learn the techniques of that rank (at least up to 5th dan). Funakoshi was a sandan just prior to leaving for Japan to teach karate, and was promoted to 5th Dan with the understanding that he would continue to study with the masters to get the rest of the information. In Japan, it requires someone to be Godan in order to open and head up a martial arts association whose rank certificates will be recognized and accepted by other organizations.

What that means in the practical sense, is that "you can't compete" there if your certificates aren't considered valid... and it's hard to gain a reputation for a school or a style if you can't compete for them. Kano Sensei never had that problem, because he was putting together a sport that was to be taught in schools and on college campuses, so it wasn't bound by those same guidelines. He was, however, very meticulous about how he selected what he did, and what he allowed to be taught in his training classes.

Practically speaking, all of judo is jujitsu, but much of jujitsu isn't judo. While judo has the "three branches" of waza, and includes a lot of jujitsu in it, there are a lot of things that judo players wouldn't recognize or practice from their cirriculum of study, simply because there isn't a competition need for it. You might think of it as jujitsu being the "bigger dog" in the fight.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#116779 - 03/04/06 12:00 AM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: wristtwister]
OneInchPunchMaster Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 101
Loc: England
Many say that BJJ is Judo with the dangerous and forbidden techniques tooken out not to hurt anyone, in the streets its THOSE techniques that save you lives at certain times.In BJJ, especially in the stand up self defence techniques, we learn to control our pressure, so we can put as much or as little pressure on someones arm if doing an armlock as possible. Its all upto the practitioner. Its one of the reasons that BJJ is an art with deadly techniques that can REALLY hurt someone. Most of the people that did BJJ would surely remember they're first classes where they got hurt quiet bad, well thats not even half of what the pain is like. People go easy on you, but if you were in a street fight with them and they applied that same technique, sooner or later you'd have a broken bone. Sure, you'll just get sent to jail yourself instead of the attacker for breaking his arm, but thats when CONTROLLING your pressure comes in.

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#116780 - 03/04/06 04:46 AM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: OneInchPunchMaster]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
I do Kodokan Goshin jutsu. I don't see any fault in Judo. What you guys are doing is looking at the competition aspect of Judo. Have you ever studied or evaluated the techniques found in the nage-no-kata? Did you know that Judo has finger-locks and many neck-dislocation techniques?

Well, understand that what you guys are doing is comparing sport judo with BJJ done in the street. Make it more fair by at least comparing sport judo with sport bjj.

My master said that although it does have a lot more techniques than Judo, many of them are useless or takes too long time to get good at to be effective. Judo is the more simplified version of Jujutsu but still quite effective. It's like taking the smaller version for quick use. We still do quite a lot of jujutsu grappling but if it's standup, we do judo.

Another thing is, BJJ may be effective but on the street I sometimes doubt it's effectiveness when against multiple opponents. Going to the ground sometimes wouldn't be the smartest thing to do when you have another 2 opponent still able to move. If you're using Judo on the street and you successfully throw someone on concrete ground, I doubt he will get up again [This has been done, and he was diagnosed with fractured bones].

Another thing is, people say that in a fight, it usually always ends on the ground. Well, what I discovered is most fights gets to the clinch before it goes to the ground. A judo-ka's best position is the clinch. Thus if you're able to get good at the clinch work YOU WON'T GET TO THE GROUND. The only times I was grounded was when I accidentally slipped, did a bad technique or met someone who was better at the clinch than me.

Look at a video of a boxing fight. Sooner or later, it will end in the clinch. That's where the Judo-ka should reign supreme.

That's my 100 yen, and say what you want but I will stand on my point that Judo is neither inferiour nor less dangerous than JJJ or BJJ. Remember, Judo is the mother art of the big three grappling arts of the world; Sambo and BJJ. Which I believe are one of the most feared arts.

Quote:

all of judo is jujitsu, but much of jujitsu isn't judo.



Wrong. Judo is Judo. Jujutsu is jujutsu. For your information, Jujutsu doesn't get near when it involves throwing. Kano deviced many of the throws himself by studying various jujutsu-ryu's and many sumo techniques. Take for example "Kata-guruma" doesn't exist in the jujutsu curriculum nor any other art. The closest you can get was sumo, but still it's not the same. Another thing we can see is that Kano dropped the whole "wrist-lock" techniques you find in Jujutsu and Aikido, not because of safety reason but due to simplification. Try getting someone in a wrist-lock during randori. Not as simple as it sounds, right? It's not that it's ineffective, it's just hard to do when you are facing an equally skilled opponent, and it takes a lot of time to get good at too not to mention the opportunity you create for your opponent when you grab them by the wrists. Kano left it out due to simplification. He wanted something everyone can learn, utilize without the need to practice 20+ years to get good at.

-Taison out


Edited by Taison (03/04/06 04:56 AM)
_________________________
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#116781 - 03/04/06 08:45 AM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: Taison]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
You can put a pig in a tuxedo, and you still have a pig. Painting judo as something that is more or less than it is will probably go on forever, but you might want to read the history of Dr. Kano and the history of his life and the development of the Kododan.

The Kodokan was originally used as a training facility for the police, after the jujitsu masters there defeated the ones that were training the Tokyo police... and the cirriculum at that time was all jujitsu. As Kano Sensei developed judo through his job as minister of education, his focus wasn't on how long it took to learn a technique, it was on how to teach the techniques to masses of people, and the wristlocks were more complicated than arm-bars, etc. so he took them out of the cirriculum. They were still taught at the Kodokan, but just not in the "generic" program that he exposed to the public.

You might want to talk with someone that's doing Kito Ryu jujitsu and tell them there aren't any wristlocks in Kito Ryu either, because that's what was being taught at the Kodokan when the police joined it. Like anything else, the judo of Kano Sensei underwent massive changes... some due to his experimentation and some due to his "culling out" dangerous techniques to make it more of an acceptable cirriculum of training for the schools and colleges in Japan.

We can sit back and second guess him the rest of our lives, but what I know of judo from playing for 40+ years, is that the competetive aspect of it is what has survived and been brought to the Olympics. When the professor died aboard ship of pneumonia, his last words were of judo and his efforts to bring it to the Olympics. Clearly, that is the focus he had on his art, and while every dog might have a brown spot, his view of judo was as an Olympic sport, and he molded the pattern for that study of it.

Quote:

Judo is Judo. Jujutsu is jujutsu.




We'll have to disagree here. There were hundreds of "judos" practiced all over Japan during Kano Sensei's lifetime, each prefecture having it's own style, just like karate and jujitsu. He went to the masters of the most prestigious styles and both observed and competed against them to develop Kodokan Judo. His life's focus, however, became to have judo incorporated as an Olympic sport. Unfortunately, he died before his dream was realized, as the "next" Olympics were cancelled due to issues in Europe in 1940.

Quote:

I do Kodokan Goshin jutsu.


If you're going to advertise that fact, you might want to do some research into Kano Sensei's life and the life experiences he had. I certainly don't have all the answers for what he did and what he was thinking, but history is history, and what we have to go on is what's recorded. Most "teachers" have a tendency to make their teachers sound like saints and everyone else like sinners, but with some research at the library, you can find out a lot about your own art.

Goshin Jitsu in the simple translation means "self defense method". The literal translation is "five minds method". Tacking "Kodokan" on the front end implicates that it was the method taught at the Kodokan, but from your information, I would question that, more because of the people I know who have studied at the Kodokan, and the information they have brought back to the U.S. Judo Association.

Rather than argue, why don't you contact Sensei Phil Porter of the U.S. Martial Arts Association and have him give you the history of the Kodokan. He's probably the most knowledgeable historian of Judo alive, and can remember who threw what competetitor in which match of whatever Olympics, and most of the time, with what throw. Some of us "old guys" might have a little different perspective on history, because I started judo in 1962, than you do. Kano Sensei was only 20 years dead, and much of the information was being brought back to this country by soldiers coming back from post-war Japan.

My first sensei was one of the U.S. Navy's "Raiders", which is now our SEAL teams (SEA, AIR, and LAND) special forces, and was sent to the Kodokan to study by the U.S. government.
It was before martial arts even had organizations in the U.S., so we got a lot of our information first hand, before the "organizational legends" and revisionist history began.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#116782 - 03/04/06 10:57 PM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: wristtwister]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Quote:

If you're going to advertise that fact, you might want to do some research into Kano Sensei's life and the life experiences he had.



Why is my art called Kodokan Goshin Jutsu and not just plain Judo? Well, we don't do it for sport. We practice Atemi from the beginning and randori is encouraged. There is no excuse for witholding any techniques nor any excuse for not getting real experience. If you have studied in the nage-no-kata, you can see that most of the techniques are associated with self-defense, thus my master says, that's where we are going. We don't worship Kano, altough we use his techniques we don't go as far as sport. For your reference, we study pre-WWII judo, not the olympic judo you see today. The closest thing you can get to us, is probably Sambo. My teacher learnt Judo in Iran, which I believe is quite isolated from the other Judo styles around the world.

Quote:

Tacking "Kodokan" on the front end implicates that it was the method taught at the Kodokan, but from your information, I would question that, more because of the people I know who have studied at the Kodokan, and the information they have brought back to the U.S. Judo Association.




Before you start bashing my art, you should at least have experience in it. First things first, you don't know A THING about my master's judo, nor do you have any experience in it. Your Judo may be Judo that's been practiced for over 40 years but you have yet to see my master's judo and already you're saying we are putting Kodokan as a brand name on our art?

Quote:

Rather than argue, why don't you contact Sensei Phil Porter of the U.S. Martial Arts Association and have him give you the history of the Kodokan.



I'm not really interested in history of how Judo was created nor evolutionized, but why would I need to contact him? I could just read up the subject and another pointer for you, read my location. . You don't think i'm gonna fly all the way to USA to talk with a guy about Judo when I can just go to my master.

Quote:

We'll have to disagree here. There were hundreds of "judos" practiced all over Japan during Kano Sensei's lifetime, each prefecture having it's own style, just like karate and jujitsu. He went to the masters of the most prestigious styles and both observed and competed against them to develop Kodokan Judo.


Did you mean "jujutsu" practiced all over japan, or are you implying there was Judo before Kano?

Anyway, next time before you start arguing, look at the topic title and don't pick on members. I didn't post here to argue which Judo is the real one or who's fake. I posted here defending Judo from these people who think Judo is just another name for Jujutsu, which I believe is wrong. And for your note, Judo IS Judo, and Jujutsu IS jujutsu. If you disagree with that then I can say Taekwon-do is Karate, Kickboxing is Muay Thai, Kempo is Kung-fu and Sambo is Judo. Try arguing that with your reasoning of Judo is Jujutsu.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#116783 - 03/04/06 10:58 PM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: wristtwister]
OneInchPunchMaster Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 101
Loc: England
Taison, you CANT win against multiple attackers. Its NEAR impossible, i would run, not fight anyway. Its most likely that they'll BOTH have a knife, if so, your dead. NO style is effective against multiple attackers, and i dont see how your master things that the techniques in BJJ are useless, i could say the same thing for Judo. And doing a takedown in a street fight has no use as the guy wont "let" himself get tooken down to the ground, i doubt you will be able to use a Judo takedown so easily in a street fight. And if you want me to compare Sport BJJ with Sport Judo, i will. BJJ is currently dominating the UFC, so is MMA. Those 2 arts are the ones dominating the sports, aka. UFC.
Also, in a street fight, the BJJer doesnt take down to guy, he would use street self defence techniques which are all stand up locks like Traditional Jiu Jitsu.
Another thing, Tasion, In BJJ it DOESNT take long to get good at a technique, you could get the basics down in 6 months. All the BJJers i've met with say that, so does my isntructor, and you actually get quite good in a short period of time. One of the guys that goes to the club is the same age as me, hes been coming for 7 months and can beat a 17 year old who has been coming to our club for 4 months in sparring. I find his techniques perfect.
Taison, i dont think its fair to say that BJJ techniques arent effective, every art is good for something. Your Instructor cant say BJJ techniques take long to get good at, its about the student and how much effort he puts into the techniques.


Edited by OneInchPunchMaster (03/04/06 11:04 PM)

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#116784 - 03/05/06 12:04 AM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: Taison]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Sorry you got your panties in a wad over my post. You asked a question and I answered it. What part of
Quote:

There were hundreds of "judos" practiced all over Japan during Kano Sensei's lifetime, each prefecture having it's own style, just like karate and jujitsu


didn't make it through the translation? Yes, there were hundreds of judos all over Japan... Kano Sensei didn't come up with that particular word.

Quote:

Before you start bashing my art, you should at least have experience in it.




In the first place, I wasn't bashing anything. I said very clearly that I was puzzled by where the name of that art came from... if it wasn't a "Kodokan" product, why does it bear that name?.. and for your information, the judo that I've studied all along has all been taught as self defense techniques, not competitive sport judo.

My suggestion that you contact Phil at the USMAA was so you could get information. I didn't suggest that you fly anywhere, but I will if you want me to... but it won't be to anywhere you'd expect.

If you're that touchy about your art, there's something very deeply wrong there. I never suggested that your art was the same as judo, and I never said it wasn't... Kano Sensei's art was a collection of techniques from all over Japan, and from his own work in the Kodokan.

Quote:

Anyway, next time before you start arguing, look at the topic title and don't pick on members.




I don't think you read your own topic line. Everything I posted was about judo and jujitsu and its developmental history. As for "picking on members", you seem to be the one trying to argue every point without anything to back it up except "talking to your master". Try getting some actual information, and not just someone else's say-so.
If you want me to run through that hit list you spouted off of different arts, I can, but you seem to think that if you shout and accuse it makes you right. History and information doesn't work that way.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#116785 - 03/05/06 12:14 AM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: Taison]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:


Did you mean "jujutsu" practiced all over japan, or are you implying there was Judo before Kano?





I posted this a fair while ago, try searching for it...

There were at least 2 styles of jujitsu that called what they did "judo", long before Kano adopted the use of the name. Hence the distinction of Kodokan Judo, which Kano, personally took pains to clarify.

I suggest checking the history throughly before launching the hostilities. Just a friendly suggestion...

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#116786 - 03/05/06 03:45 AM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: wristtwister]
OneInchPunchMaster Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 101
Loc: England
Quote:

Sorry you got your panties in a wad over my post. You asked a question and I answered it. What part of
Quote:

There were hundreds of "judos" practiced all over Japan during Kano Sensei's lifetime, each prefecture having it's own style, just like karate and jujitsu


didn't make it through the translation? Yes, there were hundreds of judos all over Japan... Kano Sensei didn't come up with that particular word.

Quote:

Before you start bashing my art, you should at least have experience in it.




In the first place, I wasn't bashing anything. I said very clearly that I was puzzled by where the name of that art came from... if it wasn't a "Kodokan" product, why does it bear that name?.. and for your information, the judo that I've studied all along has all been taught as self defense techniques, not competitive sport judo.

My suggestion that you contact Phil at the USMAA was so you could get information. I didn't suggest that you fly anywhere, but I will if you want me to... but it won't be to anywhere you'd expect.

If you're that touchy about your art, there's something very deeply wrong there. I never suggested that your art was the same as judo, and I never said it wasn't... Kano Sensei's art was a collection of techniques from all over Japan, and from his own work in the Kodokan.

Quote:

Anyway, next time before you start arguing, look at the topic title and don't pick on members.




I don't think you read your own topic line. Everything I posted was about judo and jujitsu and its developmental history. As for "picking on members", you seem to be the one trying to argue every point without anything to back it up except "talking to your master". Try getting some actual information, and not just someone else's say-so.
If you want me to run through that hit list you spouted off of different arts, I can, but you seem to think that if you shout and accuse it makes you right. History and information doesn't work that way.






You said it!

Eyrie, you right. Judo WAS referred to as "jujutsu" way back in the 1890-1900's, it later changed to Judoka when the founder came to Brazil i believe, this time taking out the dangerous and forbidden techniques.


Edited by OneInchPunchMaster (03/05/06 03:51 AM)

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#116787 - 03/05/06 06:44 AM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: eyrie]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Quote:

suggest checking the history throughly before launching the hostilities. Just a friendly suggestion...



Wah? Me hostile? HAHA! I think I gotta go practice my English, did it sound as if I was shouting? LoL.

As for Wrist_twister, have it your way. I don't care anymore. If you say Judo is Jujutsu, fine. I stand on my point that Judo IS NOT Jujutsu and there is very little on this earth that will change my view. As for art bashing, you said "You doubt" it or something, that is the beginning of someone who's going to art bash.

OneInchPunchMaster - If you were to be in a situation where you can not escape, judo throws would be more wise than to go to the ground, right? Judo throws are not hard to do, for if it was why would police officers over the world learn them? Another thing, you said about standup self-defense BJJ. Well, don't you think Judo have the same thing? Judo-ka's are quite able to do their jobs on their feet, especially in a clinch.

You guys have fun.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#116788 - 03/05/06 06:54 AM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: Taison]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I don't think anyone is bashing anyone's art....

Wristtwister has more than enough experience in a number of martial arts, particularly in the 2 being mentioned here, so I think he would be the LAST person that would be bashing any art.

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#116789 - 03/05/06 07:04 AM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: eyrie]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
I give up, not much sense trying to get my viewpoint heard when everyone is against me. Anyway, he did mentioned that he questions my art, so I took it as the first step to art bashing. Another note, I was defending my viewpoint of Judo not being Jujutsu, and then mister charming here, "who's the 40 year old practitioner", and starts arguing with me. He should be the one defending but no, he just had to pick on me and make this thread "uninteresting". I think I gotta go get a vacation.

Sheesh, people are so hard to talk to these days, it's like swimming through mud. Anyway, I give up, have fun, let's drop it at there, my bad, I'm wrong. Happy Wristtwister?

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#116790 - 03/05/06 07:20 AM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: Taison]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Dude, you need to chill.... no one's against you.
You just need to read his post again.... I don't think he's picking on you... maybe something got mis-construed?

You're entitled to your opinion just as much as everyone else. But there's no need for the personal attacks, if someone disagrees with you. I disagree with my wife all the time, and sometimes it's just not worth arguing, really....

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#116791 - 03/05/06 10:17 AM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: Taison]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

Anyway, he did mentioned that he questions my art, so I took it as the first step to art bashing.




If you'll read what I said, you'll find I said that putting "Kodokan" in front of your Goshin Jitsu name gave the impression that it was the the "self defense techniques of the Kodokan", which isn't the case. You're apparently so fired up and defensive that you view any question as an attack.

Quote:

I give up, not much sense trying to get my viewpoint heard when everyone is against me.




Nobody's "against you"... you seem to be having a conversation going on in your head that has nothing to do with what's being said here.

One of my former students, who quit doing martial arts with me because of a neck injury, still jumps every year with the Royal Thai Marines in their joint military exercises, so your "location" is special to me. He still does Muay Thai training, and is big as a house, so you ought to find out a little history before you start sounding off at people.

Quote:

"who's the 40 year old practitioner"




43 years to be exact, and I've seen most everything going on in martial arts during those years. My training partner is married to a Japanese woman and speaks perfect Japanese, so when he goes back to Japan next time, I'll have him run by the Kodokan and find out the history of your art if he has time. Then you can argue with the 10th Dan masters who live there. I'm sure you have "more information than they do". Unlike you, however, they will be grateful to learn more about the "actual history of the Kodokan and it's martial arts".



_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#116792 - 03/05/06 05:20 PM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: Taison]
OneInchPunchMaster Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 101
Loc: England
Quote:

Quote:

suggest checking the history throughly before launching the hostilities. Just a friendly suggestion...



Wah? Me hostile? HAHA! I think I gotta go practice my English, did it sound as if I was shouting? LoL.

As for Wrist_twister, have it your way. I don't care anymore. If you say Judo is Jujutsu, fine. I stand on my point that Judo IS NOT Jujutsu and there is very little on this earth that will change my view. As for art bashing, you said "You doubt" it or something, that is the beginning of someone who's going to art bash.

OneInchPunchMaster - If you were to be in a situation where you can not escape, judo throws would be more wise than to go to the ground, right? Judo throws are not hard to do, for if it was why would police officers over the world learn them? Another thing, you said about standup self-defense BJJ. Well, don't you think Judo have the same thing? Judo-ka's are quite able to do their jobs on their feet, especially in a clinch.

You guys have fun.


-Taison out





Cannot escape from what? Like i said, BJJ is not all ground. And i wouldnt go to the ground if i couldnt "escape" from whatever your trying to say.Also, i never said Judo had no self defence techniques, Judo is a great martial art that can prove its effectiveness at many times....Please be more clear on what type of situation you want me to "escape" from.


Edited by OneInchPunchMaster (03/05/06 05:22 PM)

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#116793 - 03/13/06 09:53 AM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: wristtwister]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
I've just taken up Atemi Jujitsu, but there is a Judo Club which run beginners on a different Day, would I be able to train in both without them 'blending' and unsure of which technique is 'legal' in each. I also train in Ashihara Karate and Krav Maga (these have throwing techniques and the latter involves groundwork ) - Mainly cause I'm following Mushashi's teaching in the 'Book of Five Rings'.
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#116794 - 03/13/06 03:32 PM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: Dobbersky]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

I'm following Mushashi's teaching in the 'Book of Five Rings'.





Dobbersky,
How so? In what way are you implementing his approach?

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#116795 - 03/13/06 09:24 PM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: Dobbersky]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I think you might have a little trouble training in atemi jujitsu and judo at the same time. The AJ techniques are looking to break arms and legs with their techniques, while judo is looking for a more refined approach.

I used to converse with an AJ practitioner in England that was always wanting to know how to break this or that, and the best angle to strike something to totally disable someone. From talking to him over an extended period of time, I got the idea that he thought ukes were disposable.

Good luck in your efforts. I hope you don't turn up injured.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#116796 - 03/21/06 08:12 AM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: oldman]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Mushashi talks about mastering all arts not to have one 'master', except yourself, as you may be fluent in one style but each style has it own interpretation of the same teaching. take Ashihara Karate, my Kancho took what he new from Kyokoshinkai, he took from varous other styles blended and adapted it to what the system I learn today, there are no formal classical kata but various kata devised by Kancho ashihara himself. This is the same as Bruce Lee, he did the same, so did the founder of Judo, and the founder of Aikido.
Going back to the question, from Mushashi's teaching which as those who have read his book more than several times will get a different view each time. he states that each school fights differently he mentions short swords and long swords schools but if we take the swords and make them our hands and feet this can be adapted, this is why I practice Karate, Krav Maga which seems to be a 'Bolt on' to Ashihara for strikes, and Atemi Jujitsu and soon to be Judo for throws and groundwork. I feel I get an alround effect on this and I am taking all parts of combat. Weapons only comes in at higher grades so I will concentrate on what I need to know now for the moment
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#116797 - 03/21/06 08:56 AM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: wristtwister]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
I appreciate your honesty, my main reason for training in judo and Atemi Jujitsu is that there is only one class a week and I know this is not enough for me to 'master' either art. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe funachoshi stated 'It takes 1,000 days to become adequate (Shodan) and 10,000 days to become proficient (Judan)'
Please don't misunderstand me, I treat each art I train in as important as the next. I give each equal loyalty, as I understand that we owe it to our Founder Kancho's, all them years ago when martial arts was a matter of Life and Death synopsis.
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#116798 - 03/21/06 12:24 PM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: Dobbersky]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
It is difficult to do technique well when you're just learning something, and to have two sets of instructions make it more difficult. I certainly cross train in karate, judo, jujitsu, and aikido, but I have an established base to work from and am not in a "newbie" mode on it. I'm not going to break somebody's arm by mistake from not having developed the control that I might need to stop a technique. That is not the case with most "new learners".

The skills sets you learn from anything will help you, but you have to pick something as a "base art" and develop from it. I started in judo and karate, because they had "differing skills" that were used in normal practice. As I developed in both of them, I was able to use them as "crossover" skills, such as blocking a punch and then moving into a throw, so it was an orderly transition.

What you're proposing is like trying to do two different styles of the same thing at the same time. It's not impossible to learn, but it is going to make it difficult to gain confidence in your skills and to move forward. I'd go to a few classes of each and see which one I favored, then pick one and spend my time training there.

When I started training, my sensei taught me one technique a week, and I spent the next week training (40 hours worth) on that one technique. Needless to say, I had good basics to work from, and it has been easy for me to add to my techniques because of that solid base of foundational techniques.

Good luck, which ever way you choose to go. But I would recommend that you pick one art and learn it well.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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