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#116780 - 03/04/06 04:46 AM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: OneInchPunchMaster]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
I do Kodokan Goshin jutsu. I don't see any fault in Judo. What you guys are doing is looking at the competition aspect of Judo. Have you ever studied or evaluated the techniques found in the nage-no-kata? Did you know that Judo has finger-locks and many neck-dislocation techniques?

Well, understand that what you guys are doing is comparing sport judo with BJJ done in the street. Make it more fair by at least comparing sport judo with sport bjj.

My master said that although it does have a lot more techniques than Judo, many of them are useless or takes too long time to get good at to be effective. Judo is the more simplified version of Jujutsu but still quite effective. It's like taking the smaller version for quick use. We still do quite a lot of jujutsu grappling but if it's standup, we do judo.

Another thing is, BJJ may be effective but on the street I sometimes doubt it's effectiveness when against multiple opponents. Going to the ground sometimes wouldn't be the smartest thing to do when you have another 2 opponent still able to move. If you're using Judo on the street and you successfully throw someone on concrete ground, I doubt he will get up again [This has been done, and he was diagnosed with fractured bones].

Another thing is, people say that in a fight, it usually always ends on the ground. Well, what I discovered is most fights gets to the clinch before it goes to the ground. A judo-ka's best position is the clinch. Thus if you're able to get good at the clinch work YOU WON'T GET TO THE GROUND. The only times I was grounded was when I accidentally slipped, did a bad technique or met someone who was better at the clinch than me.

Look at a video of a boxing fight. Sooner or later, it will end in the clinch. That's where the Judo-ka should reign supreme.

That's my 100 yen, and say what you want but I will stand on my point that Judo is neither inferiour nor less dangerous than JJJ or BJJ. Remember, Judo is the mother art of the big three grappling arts of the world; Sambo and BJJ. Which I believe are one of the most feared arts.

Quote:

all of judo is jujitsu, but much of jujitsu isn't judo.



Wrong. Judo is Judo. Jujutsu is jujutsu. For your information, Jujutsu doesn't get near when it involves throwing. Kano deviced many of the throws himself by studying various jujutsu-ryu's and many sumo techniques. Take for example "Kata-guruma" doesn't exist in the jujutsu curriculum nor any other art. The closest you can get was sumo, but still it's not the same. Another thing we can see is that Kano dropped the whole "wrist-lock" techniques you find in Jujutsu and Aikido, not because of safety reason but due to simplification. Try getting someone in a wrist-lock during randori. Not as simple as it sounds, right? It's not that it's ineffective, it's just hard to do when you are facing an equally skilled opponent, and it takes a lot of time to get good at too not to mention the opportunity you create for your opponent when you grab them by the wrists. Kano left it out due to simplification. He wanted something everyone can learn, utilize without the need to practice 20+ years to get good at.

-Taison out


Edited by Taison (03/04/06 04:56 AM)
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#116781 - 03/04/06 08:45 AM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: Taison]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
You can put a pig in a tuxedo, and you still have a pig. Painting judo as something that is more or less than it is will probably go on forever, but you might want to read the history of Dr. Kano and the history of his life and the development of the Kododan.

The Kodokan was originally used as a training facility for the police, after the jujitsu masters there defeated the ones that were training the Tokyo police... and the cirriculum at that time was all jujitsu. As Kano Sensei developed judo through his job as minister of education, his focus wasn't on how long it took to learn a technique, it was on how to teach the techniques to masses of people, and the wristlocks were more complicated than arm-bars, etc. so he took them out of the cirriculum. They were still taught at the Kodokan, but just not in the "generic" program that he exposed to the public.

You might want to talk with someone that's doing Kito Ryu jujitsu and tell them there aren't any wristlocks in Kito Ryu either, because that's what was being taught at the Kodokan when the police joined it. Like anything else, the judo of Kano Sensei underwent massive changes... some due to his experimentation and some due to his "culling out" dangerous techniques to make it more of an acceptable cirriculum of training for the schools and colleges in Japan.

We can sit back and second guess him the rest of our lives, but what I know of judo from playing for 40+ years, is that the competetive aspect of it is what has survived and been brought to the Olympics. When the professor died aboard ship of pneumonia, his last words were of judo and his efforts to bring it to the Olympics. Clearly, that is the focus he had on his art, and while every dog might have a brown spot, his view of judo was as an Olympic sport, and he molded the pattern for that study of it.

Quote:

Judo is Judo. Jujutsu is jujutsu.




We'll have to disagree here. There were hundreds of "judos" practiced all over Japan during Kano Sensei's lifetime, each prefecture having it's own style, just like karate and jujitsu. He went to the masters of the most prestigious styles and both observed and competed against them to develop Kodokan Judo. His life's focus, however, became to have judo incorporated as an Olympic sport. Unfortunately, he died before his dream was realized, as the "next" Olympics were cancelled due to issues in Europe in 1940.

Quote:

I do Kodokan Goshin jutsu.


If you're going to advertise that fact, you might want to do some research into Kano Sensei's life and the life experiences he had. I certainly don't have all the answers for what he did and what he was thinking, but history is history, and what we have to go on is what's recorded. Most "teachers" have a tendency to make their teachers sound like saints and everyone else like sinners, but with some research at the library, you can find out a lot about your own art.

Goshin Jitsu in the simple translation means "self defense method". The literal translation is "five minds method". Tacking "Kodokan" on the front end implicates that it was the method taught at the Kodokan, but from your information, I would question that, more because of the people I know who have studied at the Kodokan, and the information they have brought back to the U.S. Judo Association.

Rather than argue, why don't you contact Sensei Phil Porter of the U.S. Martial Arts Association and have him give you the history of the Kodokan. He's probably the most knowledgeable historian of Judo alive, and can remember who threw what competetitor in which match of whatever Olympics, and most of the time, with what throw. Some of us "old guys" might have a little different perspective on history, because I started judo in 1962, than you do. Kano Sensei was only 20 years dead, and much of the information was being brought back to this country by soldiers coming back from post-war Japan.

My first sensei was one of the U.S. Navy's "Raiders", which is now our SEAL teams (SEA, AIR, and LAND) special forces, and was sent to the Kodokan to study by the U.S. government.
It was before martial arts even had organizations in the U.S., so we got a lot of our information first hand, before the "organizational legends" and revisionist history began.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#116782 - 03/04/06 10:57 PM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: wristtwister]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Quote:

If you're going to advertise that fact, you might want to do some research into Kano Sensei's life and the life experiences he had.



Why is my art called Kodokan Goshin Jutsu and not just plain Judo? Well, we don't do it for sport. We practice Atemi from the beginning and randori is encouraged. There is no excuse for witholding any techniques nor any excuse for not getting real experience. If you have studied in the nage-no-kata, you can see that most of the techniques are associated with self-defense, thus my master says, that's where we are going. We don't worship Kano, altough we use his techniques we don't go as far as sport. For your reference, we study pre-WWII judo, not the olympic judo you see today. The closest thing you can get to us, is probably Sambo. My teacher learnt Judo in Iran, which I believe is quite isolated from the other Judo styles around the world.

Quote:

Tacking "Kodokan" on the front end implicates that it was the method taught at the Kodokan, but from your information, I would question that, more because of the people I know who have studied at the Kodokan, and the information they have brought back to the U.S. Judo Association.




Before you start bashing my art, you should at least have experience in it. First things first, you don't know A THING about my master's judo, nor do you have any experience in it. Your Judo may be Judo that's been practiced for over 40 years but you have yet to see my master's judo and already you're saying we are putting Kodokan as a brand name on our art?

Quote:

Rather than argue, why don't you contact Sensei Phil Porter of the U.S. Martial Arts Association and have him give you the history of the Kodokan.



I'm not really interested in history of how Judo was created nor evolutionized, but why would I need to contact him? I could just read up the subject and another pointer for you, read my location. . You don't think i'm gonna fly all the way to USA to talk with a guy about Judo when I can just go to my master.

Quote:

We'll have to disagree here. There were hundreds of "judos" practiced all over Japan during Kano Sensei's lifetime, each prefecture having it's own style, just like karate and jujitsu. He went to the masters of the most prestigious styles and both observed and competed against them to develop Kodokan Judo.


Did you mean "jujutsu" practiced all over japan, or are you implying there was Judo before Kano?

Anyway, next time before you start arguing, look at the topic title and don't pick on members. I didn't post here to argue which Judo is the real one or who's fake. I posted here defending Judo from these people who think Judo is just another name for Jujutsu, which I believe is wrong. And for your note, Judo IS Judo, and Jujutsu IS jujutsu. If you disagree with that then I can say Taekwon-do is Karate, Kickboxing is Muay Thai, Kempo is Kung-fu and Sambo is Judo. Try arguing that with your reasoning of Judo is Jujutsu.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#116783 - 03/04/06 10:58 PM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: wristtwister]
OneInchPunchMaster Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 101
Loc: England
Taison, you CANT win against multiple attackers. Its NEAR impossible, i would run, not fight anyway. Its most likely that they'll BOTH have a knife, if so, your dead. NO style is effective against multiple attackers, and i dont see how your master things that the techniques in BJJ are useless, i could say the same thing for Judo. And doing a takedown in a street fight has no use as the guy wont "let" himself get tooken down to the ground, i doubt you will be able to use a Judo takedown so easily in a street fight. And if you want me to compare Sport BJJ with Sport Judo, i will. BJJ is currently dominating the UFC, so is MMA. Those 2 arts are the ones dominating the sports, aka. UFC.
Also, in a street fight, the BJJer doesnt take down to guy, he would use street self defence techniques which are all stand up locks like Traditional Jiu Jitsu.
Another thing, Tasion, In BJJ it DOESNT take long to get good at a technique, you could get the basics down in 6 months. All the BJJers i've met with say that, so does my isntructor, and you actually get quite good in a short period of time. One of the guys that goes to the club is the same age as me, hes been coming for 7 months and can beat a 17 year old who has been coming to our club for 4 months in sparring. I find his techniques perfect.
Taison, i dont think its fair to say that BJJ techniques arent effective, every art is good for something. Your Instructor cant say BJJ techniques take long to get good at, its about the student and how much effort he puts into the techniques.


Edited by OneInchPunchMaster (03/04/06 11:04 PM)

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#116784 - 03/05/06 12:04 AM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: Taison]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Sorry you got your panties in a wad over my post. You asked a question and I answered it. What part of
Quote:

There were hundreds of "judos" practiced all over Japan during Kano Sensei's lifetime, each prefecture having it's own style, just like karate and jujitsu


didn't make it through the translation? Yes, there were hundreds of judos all over Japan... Kano Sensei didn't come up with that particular word.

Quote:

Before you start bashing my art, you should at least have experience in it.




In the first place, I wasn't bashing anything. I said very clearly that I was puzzled by where the name of that art came from... if it wasn't a "Kodokan" product, why does it bear that name?.. and for your information, the judo that I've studied all along has all been taught as self defense techniques, not competitive sport judo.

My suggestion that you contact Phil at the USMAA was so you could get information. I didn't suggest that you fly anywhere, but I will if you want me to... but it won't be to anywhere you'd expect.

If you're that touchy about your art, there's something very deeply wrong there. I never suggested that your art was the same as judo, and I never said it wasn't... Kano Sensei's art was a collection of techniques from all over Japan, and from his own work in the Kodokan.

Quote:

Anyway, next time before you start arguing, look at the topic title and don't pick on members.




I don't think you read your own topic line. Everything I posted was about judo and jujitsu and its developmental history. As for "picking on members", you seem to be the one trying to argue every point without anything to back it up except "talking to your master". Try getting some actual information, and not just someone else's say-so.
If you want me to run through that hit list you spouted off of different arts, I can, but you seem to think that if you shout and accuse it makes you right. History and information doesn't work that way.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#116785 - 03/05/06 12:14 AM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: Taison]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:


Did you mean "jujutsu" practiced all over japan, or are you implying there was Judo before Kano?





I posted this a fair while ago, try searching for it...

There were at least 2 styles of jujitsu that called what they did "judo", long before Kano adopted the use of the name. Hence the distinction of Kodokan Judo, which Kano, personally took pains to clarify.

I suggest checking the history throughly before launching the hostilities. Just a friendly suggestion...

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#116786 - 03/05/06 03:45 AM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: wristtwister]
OneInchPunchMaster Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 101
Loc: England
Quote:

Sorry you got your panties in a wad over my post. You asked a question and I answered it. What part of
Quote:

There were hundreds of "judos" practiced all over Japan during Kano Sensei's lifetime, each prefecture having it's own style, just like karate and jujitsu


didn't make it through the translation? Yes, there were hundreds of judos all over Japan... Kano Sensei didn't come up with that particular word.

Quote:

Before you start bashing my art, you should at least have experience in it.




In the first place, I wasn't bashing anything. I said very clearly that I was puzzled by where the name of that art came from... if it wasn't a "Kodokan" product, why does it bear that name?.. and for your information, the judo that I've studied all along has all been taught as self defense techniques, not competitive sport judo.

My suggestion that you contact Phil at the USMAA was so you could get information. I didn't suggest that you fly anywhere, but I will if you want me to... but it won't be to anywhere you'd expect.

If you're that touchy about your art, there's something very deeply wrong there. I never suggested that your art was the same as judo, and I never said it wasn't... Kano Sensei's art was a collection of techniques from all over Japan, and from his own work in the Kodokan.

Quote:

Anyway, next time before you start arguing, look at the topic title and don't pick on members.




I don't think you read your own topic line. Everything I posted was about judo and jujitsu and its developmental history. As for "picking on members", you seem to be the one trying to argue every point without anything to back it up except "talking to your master". Try getting some actual information, and not just someone else's say-so.
If you want me to run through that hit list you spouted off of different arts, I can, but you seem to think that if you shout and accuse it makes you right. History and information doesn't work that way.






You said it!

Eyrie, you right. Judo WAS referred to as "jujutsu" way back in the 1890-1900's, it later changed to Judoka when the founder came to Brazil i believe, this time taking out the dangerous and forbidden techniques.


Edited by OneInchPunchMaster (03/05/06 03:51 AM)

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#116787 - 03/05/06 06:44 AM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: eyrie]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Quote:

suggest checking the history throughly before launching the hostilities. Just a friendly suggestion...



Wah? Me hostile? HAHA! I think I gotta go practice my English, did it sound as if I was shouting? LoL.

As for Wrist_twister, have it your way. I don't care anymore. If you say Judo is Jujutsu, fine. I stand on my point that Judo IS NOT Jujutsu and there is very little on this earth that will change my view. As for art bashing, you said "You doubt" it or something, that is the beginning of someone who's going to art bash.

OneInchPunchMaster - If you were to be in a situation where you can not escape, judo throws would be more wise than to go to the ground, right? Judo throws are not hard to do, for if it was why would police officers over the world learn them? Another thing, you said about standup self-defense BJJ. Well, don't you think Judo have the same thing? Judo-ka's are quite able to do their jobs on their feet, especially in a clinch.

You guys have fun.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#116788 - 03/05/06 06:54 AM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: Taison]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I don't think anyone is bashing anyone's art....

Wristtwister has more than enough experience in a number of martial arts, particularly in the 2 being mentioned here, so I think he would be the LAST person that would be bashing any art.

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#116789 - 03/05/06 07:04 AM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: eyrie]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
I give up, not much sense trying to get my viewpoint heard when everyone is against me. Anyway, he did mentioned that he questions my art, so I took it as the first step to art bashing. Another note, I was defending my viewpoint of Judo not being Jujutsu, and then mister charming here, "who's the 40 year old practitioner", and starts arguing with me. He should be the one defending but no, he just had to pick on me and make this thread "uninteresting". I think I gotta go get a vacation.

Sheesh, people are so hard to talk to these days, it's like swimming through mud. Anyway, I give up, have fun, let's drop it at there, my bad, I'm wrong. Happy Wristtwister?

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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