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#116770 - 09/01/03 10:16 PM Re: Judo or Jujutsu
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
Nekogami, very interesting info...I'll definitely check out that site...thanks.

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#116771 - 01/30/04 11:16 PM Re: Judo or Jujutsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


Off the side:
I would say that the Brazilians were lucky the art was exported to them before the ban...


About this Jitsu v.s. Do thing...

Would you agree that the Do was just a cover up to hide the effectiveness of the arts and make them survive the ban?

I mean they left us with the katas (with all of the banned moves in them) to revive/re-engineer the art.

Ju(do)kas do fight Ju(jitsu)kas and win...

Do you consider compliance in training a safe practise when the technique was designed to make the opponent compliant?

Just asking questions [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 01-31-2004).]

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#116772 - 03/02/06 09:44 PM Re: Judo or Jujutsu
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I can see that you are well informed about the history of BJJ, but unfortunately, there is a lot of problems with history. As a hachidan in jujitsu, I'm reasonably familiar with jujitsu techniques, and had one of BJJ's premier players teaching and practicing on the mat across from mine for several years.

I spent endless hours watching what they did and how they did it, and most of what I saw was "bad judo". They were constantly getting injured from being out of position when putting their opponent into a lock or hold-down, and often injured themselves in the effort to realign themselves to "do their techniques".

When they "cross trained" with our judo students, they were constantly getting themselves into bad positions where even our most unskilled judo players were able to pin them or put them into submission holds. While I liked Carlos and thought HE had reasonable explanations for what he was doing, it didn't translate into the students that were coming over to play with our judo club.

The famous film where Mr. Gracie "defeated" one of the Kodokan's legends began with him walking up and kicking the Judoka in the crotch, when they were supposed to be conducting the match with the same tournament rules that were being observed in international judo matches, where that particular tactic isn't allowed, so I view BJJ as having good press relations and less than stable performance standards.

I listened closely while their classes were being taught, and it was training where they were constantly asking "can't we do this..." in very basic situations, and the senior students finding it necessary to "work things out" to answer their questions. They were never willing to say "I don't know", and often gave the biggest B-S answers you have ever heard. The judo players knew when they were "making it up as they went along", because there were lots of times that they would be attempting to do the techniques we had practiced in judo class the day after we practiced them. They seldom got anything right, and it was embarressing (to say the least) to watch an internationally acclaimed martial artist's students bumble their way through some very basic material.

I was practicing judo when there were only 40 basic throws, and judo WAS a self defense art. It too has been "watered down" to make it "sports attractive" to more people, but the old judo techniques still had a lot of the Kito Ryu techniques in it, and they were rife with strikes and punches that made them deadly. I didn't see much, if any, of that in the BJJ practice I observed.

After a couple of years, our BJJ "master" moved away and the BJJ classes sort of collapsed of their own weight. After he left, I found out that he had been charging up to $200 an hour for private instruction to one of the high ranking black belts at the dojo. From the results, he should have saved his money and gone to Brazil, because it certainly didn't translate into "superiority" in the two years I observed it. At least if he had gone to Brazil, he could have enjoyed the carnival.



Please don't misconstrue this as a slam against anyone, but it is based on 40 years plus of jujitsu and judo training, and observing one of the "recognized masters" of BJJ for over two years in "eye to eye" contact.
_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#116773 - 03/02/06 10:52 PM Re: Judo or Jujutsu
OneInchPunchMaster Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 101
Loc: England
BJJ contains many stand up self defence techniques. In our classes, we learn 1-2 self defence techniques each class, and these are stand up techniques. The self defence techniques are all about locks; arm locks, wrist locks, etc. So i guess that BJJ is similiar to JJJ, except that BJJ puts more emphasis on ground fighting. I train in both styles, and to me they are pretty much the same thing except that BJJ puts more focus on ground work as i said. It also depends on what type of BJJ your learning, whether its sport oriented or not. My intructors lineage comes straight from Sylvio Behring, whos father, Flavio Behring was taught under Helio Gracie, so the lineage is straight and direct, and the method i learn is Gracie Jiu Jitsu, which contains alot of focus on self defence techniques.

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#116774 - 03/03/06 05:57 AM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: OneInchPunchMaster]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
In my opinion Judo and Jujutsu* are very similar. Judo however has rules for competition purposes. (Jujutsu lately also knows competitions.)
In training both look alike. Jujutsu starts earlier with atemi-waza then Judo.
Then there is also the difference between Kodokan Judo and Kosen Judo. The later, what I have heared and read, emphasises more on grappling, the first more on throws. (I believe there were also styles named Judo before Dr.Kano.)

In competition, these different styles; Judo, Jujutsu, BJJ and Sambo can make eachother tap.

(I'm not an expert, I only had three lessons in Jujutsu)
Maybe there is some info on this in the Reading Room.

*Japanese / Traditional
_________________________
Ives

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#116775 - 03/03/06 10:54 AM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: immrtldragon]
tritaffy Offline
Stranger

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 1
I've just started practising Judo and JJJ. I find they are opposite sides of the same coin and that they supplement each other.

Judo helps me with my throws in JJJ and JJJ definitely helps with my groundwork in Judo.My instructor is 8th Dan in Jujitsu and 4th Dan in Judo.Our jujitsu is quite traditional and I find that the terminology of both is the same

I enjoy practising both although I do slighly prefer JJJ, however the randori of Judo is excellent.

It's my first post so please be gentle !!

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#116776 - 03/03/06 02:20 PM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: tritaffy]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Quote:

I've just started practising Judo and JJJ. I find they are opposite sides of the same coin and that they supplement each other.

Judo helps me with my throws in JJJ and JJJ definitely helps with my groundwork in Judo.My instructor is 8th Dan in Jujitsu and 4th Dan in Judo.Our jujitsu is quite traditional and I find that the terminology of both is the same

I enjoy practising both although I do slighly prefer JJJ, however the randori of Judo is excellent.

It's my first post so please be gentle !!




I could not agree more. They are brother and sister. What is lacking in one is found in the other for me. Together JJJ and judo work best.

Welcome to the forums and well done on a good post.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#116777 - 03/03/06 06:21 PM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: Prizewriter]
OneInchPunchMaster Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 101
Loc: England
BJJ, Judo and JJJ are very similiar indeed. All 3 have a lineage from Jujutsu, thus all 3 arts borrow lots of locks from JJJ. Only difference is that in JJJ, alot of focus is put on defending yourself, Whilst in Judo, you have alot of emphasis put in takedowns, and BJJ has alot of emphasis put on Ground work. Once could say that these 3 arts are the same thing except with different methods of teaching it.One thing i have noticed is that BJJ has quite alot of "deep" locks, BJJ 'ers will know what i mean by this. Compared to the JJJ locks, the BJJ locks are more deep and are more dangerous.

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#116778 - 03/03/06 09:03 PM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: OneInchPunchMaster]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Something that gets passed over a lot of times is that Kano Sensei studied a number of Judos (named as such) before constructing the set of techniques we now have labeled "Kodokan Judo". He picked and chose from many different styles and selected techniques that were safe to practice, not necessarily for their "battlefield worthiness".

There are a lot of "judo techniques" that are prohibited from competition judo that are still practiced in jujitsu schools all over the world, so if there is a "deeper lock" being practiced in Brazilian Jujitsu, I would suspect that it was simply one (or a group) of techniques that Kano Sensei didn't select for his competitive style because of the injury factor. God knows that even the 65 techniques in the current set have some throws in there that take some superior falling skills to keep from getting killed, but there are some other "old" judo techniques that were just outright dangerous to practice.

Side separations were not allowed to be used until someone had at least sandan falling skills when I first started judo training, and with that very reason in mind. 90% of the time, the uke would land on their collarbone and turn it into mush if they didn't have that level of ukemi, so I would hesitate to start pushing one art over the other, because they are different parts of the same picture.

There isn't much "mutual respect" in jujitsu techniques of any kind, other than the respect for your training partners so you can keep training in most jujitsu styles, so you also have to factor in the philosophical differences you find between what Kano Sensei was trying to accomplish and what is going on in the jujitsu styles he plucked those techniques from. It's also a fact that a lot of what is known about martial arts in the Orient has never found its way into mainstream martial arts in the West, simply because the Japanese and Okinawans wanted to keep the advantage to themselves of certain technique's values.

I also blame some of that loss of understanding on the black belts that hit shodan and think they need to open another school just down the street and "start teaching" their art. It has watered down a lot of systems.

The whole "black belt thing" has gotten out of hand, because the reason you are promoted is to allow you to learn the techniques of that rank (at least up to 5th dan). Funakoshi was a sandan just prior to leaving for Japan to teach karate, and was promoted to 5th Dan with the understanding that he would continue to study with the masters to get the rest of the information. In Japan, it requires someone to be Godan in order to open and head up a martial arts association whose rank certificates will be recognized and accepted by other organizations.

What that means in the practical sense, is that "you can't compete" there if your certificates aren't considered valid... and it's hard to gain a reputation for a school or a style if you can't compete for them. Kano Sensei never had that problem, because he was putting together a sport that was to be taught in schools and on college campuses, so it wasn't bound by those same guidelines. He was, however, very meticulous about how he selected what he did, and what he allowed to be taught in his training classes.

Practically speaking, all of judo is jujitsu, but much of jujitsu isn't judo. While judo has the "three branches" of waza, and includes a lot of jujitsu in it, there are a lot of things that judo players wouldn't recognize or practice from their cirriculum of study, simply because there isn't a competition need for it. You might think of it as jujitsu being the "bigger dog" in the fight.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#116779 - 03/04/06 12:00 AM Re: Judo or Jujutsu [Re: wristtwister]
OneInchPunchMaster Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 101
Loc: England
Many say that BJJ is Judo with the dangerous and forbidden techniques tooken out not to hurt anyone, in the streets its THOSE techniques that save you lives at certain times.In BJJ, especially in the stand up self defence techniques, we learn to control our pressure, so we can put as much or as little pressure on someones arm if doing an armlock as possible. Its all upto the practitioner. Its one of the reasons that BJJ is an art with deadly techniques that can REALLY hurt someone. Most of the people that did BJJ would surely remember they're first classes where they got hurt quiet bad, well thats not even half of what the pain is like. People go easy on you, but if you were in a street fight with them and they applied that same technique, sooner or later you'd have a broken bone. Sure, you'll just get sent to jail yourself instead of the attacker for breaking his arm, but thats when CONTROLLING your pressure comes in.

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