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#116690 - 05/29/02 02:02 PM Is choking safe?
n8080820 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 05/29/02
Posts: 2
Loc: newcastle
I am a first dan in newcastle in the uk. I am also a doctor. To combine the 2 i am doing a study on how safe judo chokes are. has anyone here come accross any info or medical research surrounding this?
please help me. i am too lazy to do this properly.

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#116691 - 06/06/02 06:31 PM Re: Is choking safe?
gus Offline
Member

Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 67
Loc: dixon calif.usa
in and old back issue of "black belt mag."dr.kowaii don't think i spelled the name right.choking or shime waza was explored by the kodokan.i gathered for the length of time applied to the point of pass out.no sweat.just holding the choke beyond that point could produce damage.i've been choked out many times.but then i have a fast tapout.

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#116692 - 09/13/02 07:17 PM Re: Is choking safe?
CWP Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/13/02
Posts: 16
Loc: middleburg, florida
I do cardiovascular ultrasound. I haven't seen any official literature on the matter, but I have done a little experimentation on my own. Most people think the mechanism of the choke is due to compression of the carotid arteries limiting bloodflow to the brain; but I've found that the carotids don't compress even with painful pressure. The jugular veins, however, flatten easily. Add this knowledge to the appearance of someone being choked-bright red face. So chokes apparently work by limiting outflow, not inflow-thereby letting the victim "down" gently.
The only danger I can think of would be if the one being choked had plaque or calcification inside of the carotid arteries that could be dislodged (stroke time!), or trauma to the vessles or cervical spine from an overly-vigorus technique.

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#116693 - 06/15/03 08:05 AM Re: Is choking safe?
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
i dont think there is anything "safe" about choking someone no matter which way you slice it, you are depriving them of oxygen. but i think as long as you let go when they tap out its all good [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] as with any martial arts or martial sports...youre sort of playing with fire, to me...these techniques were never really meant to be safe and there isnt much a person can do to make a choke safe other than let go when uke taps out and not purposely crushing uke's throat. chokes are dangerous by definition. HOW DANGEROUS it is in a given situation however is different...in a competition your opponent is not trying to kill you so if you get choked its not a big deal, and as long as you release the choke when uke taps out when you are applying the choke there are no worries.

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#116694 - 06/15/03 08:09 AM Re: Is choking safe?
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
and i think if you have a good choke applied....nothing will go in..or out. but i dont do judo, i do jujutsu...maybe things are different.

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#116695 - 06/21/03 01:27 PM Re: Is choking safe?
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
What kind of doctor are you? What specific choke are you refering to? Some are safe, some are very dangerous. Usually chokes that involve the carotid artery are safe. They produce hypoxia,causing the person to loose conscisness. If you apply the choke too long especially with a weapon such as a garrote, the spinal system starts to shut down. The brain starts to die. With trachea type chokes you run the risk of crushing the trachea. Especially dangerous when using clubs as a method of choking. There are as you know different degrees of unconsciness. In the deepest the uke will lose bladder control. Anyone who teaches choking as part of thier system should also know CPR just in case. They are always those variables where someone has a pre-condition that you do not know about. Ed www.lonewolfjujutsu.com

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#116696 - 06/25/03 01:23 PM Re: Is choking safe?
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Wha.. Did I inadvertantly tune into an episode of ER? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] You lost me, Ed.

From a laymans' point of view, plain ole common sense tells me that depriving someone of oxygen, in any way, can not be a "safe" thing to do. But then a few years at med. school might well persuade me otherwise...can't really see how though.

Budo

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#116697 - 06/25/03 11:44 PM Re: Is choking safe?
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
In my opinion to be good at martial arts you have to know alot more than kata. Knowing how a human being works both physical and physological are invaluable. Hypoxia is lack of oxygen to the brain. The brain does not have permament damage as long as the choke hold is not applied too long. How long,well the brain starts to die after aprox 4 min without oxygen. It takes about 4-10 seconds to chock someone out. So there is a safety factor there.
When you knock someone out with a punch that is neurogenic shock. The brain is over loaded with pain stimuli and shuts down. That is more dagerous because of the way the brain bounces off the interior skull. Edema or brain swelling is the cause of most fatalities in boxing. OK, well I have to get back to the ER. Ed

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#116698 - 09/14/03 05:52 PM Re: Is choking safe?
Anonymous
Unregistered


It depends on which choke you use of course.

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#116699 - 09/15/03 12:29 AM Re: Is choking safe?
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
The main problem i find with chokes is that sometimes when you are free fighting (going as hard as you can trying to submit your opponent), in order for you to be able to get a choke you have to put it on super fast. Hence the choke almost has a striking effect on the wind pipe. This feels extremely uncomfortable, and i'm sure if it was done hard enough could collpase the wind pipe.

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#116700 - 09/15/03 12:29 PM Re: Is choking safe?
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
Most Judo chokes work the corotid artery though, not the windpipe.

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#116701 - 09/15/03 05:43 PM Re: Is choking safe?
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
Not true grasshoper! Ed

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#116702 - 09/15/03 05:55 PM Re: Is choking safe?
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
Um, Ed, are you talking to me? If you are, please explain. The majority of the Judo chokes I have learned have had a major focus on the corotid as opposed to the windpipe...I'm not sayng all, but most. The majority of the ones I train utilize pressure on one or both sides of the neck, not the throat.

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#116703 - 09/15/03 06:17 PM Re: Is choking safe?
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I would agree that the vast majority of chokse are corotid (blood) chokes either using the gi sleeves, lapel or the arms themselves. Many chokes CAN be easily made into trachea chokes but the more efficient ones are performed by closing off the blood supply to the brain.

These aren't dangerous is released quickly.


-John

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#116704 - 09/15/03 09:12 PM Re: Is choking safe?
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
grasshopper, the basic hadaka-jime has many variations including the use of the knee to choke.Guilotine choke,variations of tsukiomi-jime and sode-garuma-jime to name a few. Ed

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#116705 - 09/16/03 07:05 AM Re: Is choking safe?
charles mckey Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 1368
Would the bottom 3 articles on this page be of any use?
http://bjj.org/articles/

I think at least one of them has a contact email for the author so you may be able to discuss references etc.

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#116706 - 09/17/03 12:09 PM Re: Is choking safe?
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
Ed, you have a point, but considering this is a Judo forum I was imagining that the question was referring to Judo chokes as they are most widely practiced. The Guilotene (sp) choke is more widely a BJJ choke and is illegal in Judo competition. Everything has variations, but I was adressing the question from strictly a Judo point of view and how the techniques are most widely practiced in Judo clubs/competition. Obviously, variation could be made, thus making a choke more dangerous and putting other emphasis on it. I'm not disagreeing, you are correct in that the variations may put emphasis on the windpipe, but as I have seen them practiced in my club/other clubs/seminars/competitions, the main focus is on the corotid.

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#116707 - 09/17/03 04:43 PM Re: Is choking safe?
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
The thing is, judo is a competitive sport. The person you are trying to choke is going to do everything in his or her power to stop you, and the trachea is only an inch or two from the target area for the strangle-- so accidents happen, both the "I missed my target by a bit because he turned his head" type and the "there, that ought to slow you down a bit" type.

A light blow on the trachea can disrupt the phrenic nerve and cause a person's diaphragm to spasm, with an effect similar to having the wind knocked out of you. Of course, I can't see why anyone would *cheat* in a judo match. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

In self defense situations, brushing (or striking, if it's there) the trachea on the way into the strangle can really help things along nicely.

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