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#116546 - 06/05/01 01:54 AM Is Judo street effective
Brewer Offline
Member

Registered: 01/15/01
Posts: 468
Loc: Arizona,U.S.
Hello,
I know we all saw the Ultimate Fighting Championships.And the over all out come of most of the fights.Yes, the grapplers really did a good job.Just because the grapplers are the best at what they do doesn't mean that what they do is the best.I mean that if a grappler tried to put a arm lock on me the way they were doing it on tv,he would immediately be missing a piece of meat about bite size out of his calf muscle.And I believe that going to the ground in a street fight is the worst thing that one would want to do.Let's look at another thing.What if the grappler is facing two assailants,if he ties one up and goes to the ground the other one is going to be kicking him up side the head.Now don't get me wrong I Love all the Martial Arts and have trained and practiced in Judo myself.I just think that this is an interesting subject to discuss.
Your Brother in the Arts

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#116547 - 08/10/01 09:40 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
SPARKY Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/10/01
Posts: 2
Loc: -
I totally agree with you on the two on one situation but, i have trained in ju-jitu/judo now for 5 years and i think it is good to know all ranges.if i am defending myself on the street and i trip over a kirb or any object i need to know how to survive on the ground.peaple make mistakes,even monkeys fall out of trees.it`s always best to stay on your feet but it`s not always that easy.When you consider 85% of fights end up on the ground i feel ground fighting as well as stand up fighting needs to be learned.

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#116548 - 08/18/01 11:22 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
Amos Smith Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/00
Posts: 133
Loc: Wisconsin
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brewer:
if a grappler tried to put a arm lock on me the way they were doing it on tv,he would immediately be missing a piece of meat about bite size out of his calf muscle.And I believe that going to the ground in a street fight is the worst thing that one would want to do.

Let's look at another thing.What if the grappler is facing two assailants,if he ties one up and goes to the ground the other one is going to be kicking him up side the head.
[/QUOTE]

Two excellent points.

The street fight angle: I don't think a pin would be valid if it left an opening for another attack ie: biting, so pins geared towards a rule based competition might not be the best choice in a street fight.

Multiple opponents: staying aware of your situation is very important and choosing to pin one attacker, with others to contend with, may not be the best choice for the situation. I hate so say it, but in a multiple attacker situation, all but one of my attackers is going to be taken out with extreme prejudice (ie: unable to attack again), until such time as I am able to effectively restrain more than one person at a time. I would prefer to not to, just as I would prefer to discuss the situation over a beer rather than combat, but I don't see any other choice.

From the perspective of a wrestler, I think the ground is a tactically superior position as it eliminates many angles and methods of attack. Many street fights will have time spent on the ground, so I think it's important to understand these techniques...but why get dirty if you don't have to? Even if you don't want to "go there", you might slip on ice, who knows?

Amos Smith

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#116549 - 08/26/01 06:11 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
kenposan Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/23/01
Posts: 633
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
When you consider 85% of fights end up on the ground... >>>>>

We hear various statistics floating around- 85%-95% of fights end up on the ground. We all seem to accept this stat, but does anyone know where it came from, or do we all just believe it because our instructors and other martial artists all say it?

The following is what Peyton Quinn (bouncers guide to barroom brawling) posted to the AOL boards a few years ago (from memory, not verbatim):

The LAPD started keeping stats on how altercations involving officers ended up. Their study showed that (enter stat here: I believe it was 95%) of altercations ended up on the ground. So, there we have our stat. BUT... the thing we need to remember is that police officers were involved. It is there responsibility to apprehend the assailant, so of course they entered into a grappling situation with the intent of taking the person down and cuffing them. If you have watched COPS on tv (my guilty pleasure), you see that most often officers(note the plural) will take the assailant to the ground during an altercation. It is their job to restrain,control, apprehend and arrest.

So, when we hear that statistic, we need to keep in mind it's source and under what circumstances the data was gathered.

Peace

[This message has been edited by kenposan (edited 08-26-2001).]

[This message has been edited by kenposan (edited 08-26-2001).]

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#116550 - 10/24/01 07:33 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
JabonnF Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/24/01
Posts: 20
Loc: texas
When you consider 85% of fights end up on the ground... >>>>>
We hear various statistics floating around- 85%-95% of fights end up on the ground. We all seem to accept this stat, but does anyone know where it came from, or do we all just believe it because our instructors and other martial artists all say it?

Remember that 100% of street fights will start while standing up. My first punch thrown is to distract the guy and get within grapling distance. I want to remain standing on my feet for as long as I can. If I am on the ground, it's harder to run away from that position.

I agree with Mr. Smith, I would not go for an Arm Bar or a Pin in a street fight. But if the opportunity presents itself while on the ground, I think I could snap the elbow before he would think about biting my calf. Even if he did, I walk away with a hole in my leg and you have a bum arm for life.

Just my two cents

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#116551 - 12/11/01 02:28 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
jasonc Offline
Stranger

Registered: 12/10/01
Posts: 4
Loc: balch springs, texas usa
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brewer:
Hello,
I know we all saw the Ultimate Fighting Championships.And the over all out come of most of the fights.Yes, the grapplers really did a good job.Just because the grapplers are the best at what they do doesn't mean that what they do is the best.I mean that if a grappler tried to put a arm lock on me the way they were doing it on tv,he would immediately be missing a piece of meat about bite size out of his calf muscle.And I believe that going to the ground in a street fight is the worst thing that one would want to do.Let's look at another thing.What if the grappler is facing two assailants,if he ties one up and goes to the ground the other one is going to be kicking him up side the head.Now don't get me wrong I Love all the Martial Arts and have trained and practiced in Judo myself.I just think that this is an interesting subject to discuss.
Your Brother in the Arts
[/QUOTE]

YES!!!!!
My father is a retired Dallas poice officer and a Yodan in Judo and has used many technquies in the line of duty and now teaches them at his dojo. He has told me that most street fights end up on the ground. If the armbar is applied quick enough, there won't be a chance to anything but surrender or continue on with a broken arm or worse.

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#116552 - 12/11/01 02:21 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
Chin-Chec Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/10/01
Posts: 10
Loc: Merriam,Ks,U.S.A
I find what has been writen agreeable but I have been in many street fights not of my own accord of course but I have used Judo and presure points against my foes in such fights and have been sucsesful. The thing is you must have a good fight presence and get the heck out of the way in time before the enemy can attack. I would defend before they would attack not trying to hurt anyone of course.

Your Friend Chin-Chec

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#116553 - 01/24/02 04:45 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
mitch77 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 2
About the best street technique.
I was a boxer.
I went from there to Karate (was beating
blackbelts during 1st bouts I had).
Became a cop studied Judo/ground...
As you know if you have studied the results.
Boxing is the most effective of the striking arts. And 1 on 1 judo or grappling trumps boxing. However when 'anything goes' you need some of it all esp heart and speed. And
above all, when assulted by numbers you better be willing to try and hurt the 1st couple as
much as you are able in the 1st few seconds.
Side kicks to the knee to break it backwards.
Front edge blows to the neck etc.

One on one, esp if you can box, you can afford to be merciful. Any boxer with below average skill can totally nutralize the kick (it is WAY too slow). Pinwheels are a joke (boxers jump rope for hours). You give a boxer a leg and he will take it, (and knock you out.)
In the early 70s, 1st ABC wide world of sports, then Karate Illustrated each put on bouts between top name karatekas and no-name club boxers.
Both bouts had to be stopped by the 3rd to save the karateka's from brain damage.
Ali challenged all the top marshall arts guys. No takers. Pro karate started requiring 8 kicks per round because boxers were taking over, now all the top guys have pro boxing trainers.
So you want the best all round system;
Lots of boxing, lots of Judo/grappling+
a bit of jui-jitsu for pain/compliance and karate concentrating
on kicks from the knee down - above the waist kicks are foolish outside the ring.
And not that smart inside it either.
Remember the violence you see on TV is neither real nor realistic.
Also if confronted by numbers;
most importantly look for any opportunity to escape and evade
I am not being cute, I am serious.

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#116554 - 09/13/02 07:29 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
CWP Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/13/02
Posts: 16
Loc: middleburg, florida
I agree. Western boxing or something like Thai Boxing (great kicks and elbow strikes) can't be beat if you need to pound someone. I haven't been in many altercations, but my judo skills served me well (and the simple stuff worked best- ogoshi, ippon seoi nage, osotogari, and the naked choke). I've always thought of brazilian jujitsu as judo without the rules.

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#116555 - 09/13/02 11:35 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mitch77:
One on one, esp if you can box, you can afford to be merciful. Any boxer with below average skill can totally nutralize the kick (it is WAY too slow). Pinwheels are a joke (boxers jump rope for hours). You give a boxer a leg and he will take it, (and knock you out.)

Ali challenged all the top marshall arts guys. No takers. Pro karate started requiring 8 kicks per round because boxers were taking over, now all the top guys have pro boxing trainers.
[/QUOTE]

I agree that fancy technique does nothing if it does nothing. But, I think the fighters knew Ali was an all round great fighter, regardless of style. Something more to do with pride if they lost, which was highly probable. Would Oscar de la Hoya walk into a Muay Thai world championship fight? Would the belt holder necessarily be suffering brain damage in the 4th round? Kicks are to slow? Then why are they used in full contact situations where they are allowed? If a kick has more range, how is it slower? There is no closing the gap.

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#116556 - 11/28/02 11:35 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
tatglove Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 2
Loc: baltimore md
I totally agree.I learned to box at the local
pal center as a teen.Also going to the local
Judo club and doing randori gave me good
ground knowledge that I later would use as a
nightclub doorman at one of the more violent
nightclubs in Baltimore.Using sweeps,chokes
etc. to control patrons.But when approached
going to my car,a stiff jab followed by right
usually did the trick.STAY OFF the ground at all costs when its for real!

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#116557 - 11/29/02 08:35 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
It's interesting that most people here think Judo consists solely of newaza, and overlook the fact that a well executed throw onto a hard surface negates the need to worry about going to ground. Your attacker wont be getting up some time, time enough for you to make your exit. Even poorly executed throws can cause sufficient damage to an opponent to end the fight there and then. Judo clearly originates from ju jutsu. Ju jutsu was unquestionably a true battlefield martial art, used by Samurai in real life or death situations, not thought out from some idealised idea of what happens in a fight. In my opinion the art would not have survived if it was ineffective, it has no fancy techniques that look good in the ring but are useless out of it. A lot of other "martial arts" would have difficulty making the same claim.

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#116558 - 12/07/02 06:31 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Cato had an excellent point-what about the takedown or the throw. we practice on mats, but others who don't know how to fall on mats will hurt themselves on the street. We actually practice on cement, our rolling and falling so we know how to 'accept' the ground. My point also is you want the attacker on the ground, that doesn't mean you HAVE to follow. If you have a striking art, once their down on the ground from a throw or takedown, give them a 'shoe job' kicks stomps and knees. There are several Judo locks that work well standing up as well. A Grandmaster once told me anything you can do on the ground, you can do standing up and vice versa. A good elbow lock standing up-can lead to a break, or a throw if you wanted and you wouldn't have to follow them down unless you really wanted to.

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#116559 - 01/06/03 08:47 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
menuto Offline
Stranger

Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 2
Only once I was involved in a fight. It was when I was 16 (after 8 years practicing judo). I was in a crowded pub with some friends, against the wall. Suddenly the guy in front of me looked me and punched me, without any apparent reason. Inmediately two more helped him hitting me. I couldnīt move: the wall behind me and a lot of people at my sides. Fortunately one of them wasnīt agressive (the one who wasnīt durnk) and convenced them to leave me and went to another bar.

The first thing I thougth after that was that after a lot of years practicing judo I was only prepared for championships and not for this type of situations. I was a good judoka but there I just felt like a puching ball. Since then I am allways cautious; I donīt want any surprises.

It is also important that, in that place, any use of my judo knowledge was impossible; no space and various agressors at a time.

After that experience I donīt rely selfprotection only on my judo but also on my readiness and overall on my common sense.
Yes, now I am a bit paranoid.

Sorry but my written English level isnīt very good.

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#116560 - 01/19/03 02:02 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
NateShodan Offline
Stranger

Registered: 01/18/03
Posts: 4
I think that Judo is very street effective only because I have actually had to use it. A friend of mine was getting jumped outside of a bar. Once I made it to him I acually tried to stop the fight before I was forced into defending myself. I was rushed from my right side and pushed head forward into another guy. The move I actually used was a simple double leg tackle. Obviously not the move of choice because I didn't want to end up on the ground, but because now I was being jumped but I was kind limited under the circumstances. I got up quickly and was attacked again but this time I didn't let him get his hands on me. As soon as he got close enough I grabbed him by his sweater and did a Harai Goshi but without the leg. More like a grab and slam. I don't remember seeing him after that so I'm assuming I got my point across. I get tunnel vision too so I only worried about threats. I had to encounter two other guys but I just hit them before they hit me. No judo there. So to make a long story short(too late), Yes it is street effective.

[This message has been edited by NateShodan (edited 01-19-2003).]

[This message has been edited by NateShodan (edited 01-19-2003).]

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#116561 - 02/02/03 06:05 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Brewer: stated that if someone were to put an armlock on him, he'd be missing a piece of meat from his calf muscle. That's an attitude of survival, but it's wrong.

It's wrong because of several reasons:

1. When a fighter hits an armlock on the street, he's not going to just hold it there long enough for that too happen in the first place. He's going to be ballistically breaking the arm in nearly the exact same instance that he is putting the lock on.

2. If it's a street fight....go ahead and bite! The person biting is going to be the one with the arm in two pieces. There is STILL going to be some fight left after the break. I will take my chances with a bite.

3. Biting is something that is not practicable (not able to be practiced) in the gym so there is no way of truly knowing how a person's reaction to such a thing will be...especially when adrenaline is flowing and the pain threshold has been increased due to that.

4. With all that being said, it's better to learn to technical counter to a hold like that, than to simply go for something "crude" such as a bite. There is no "art" behind the bite and it isn't going to work on an experienced grappler plain and simple.

Learn to counters folks. Biting a grappler (or eye gouging as well) is just inviting more punishment because after you're lying there unconscious (from a choke) or with a broken arm or leg, "grappler" is just going to be mad.

Good training all!

-John

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#116562 - 02/28/03 01:36 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
rich j Offline
Stranger

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 2
I have trained a bit of grappling and stand up fighting. I have also been bit in fights before.
If someone gets a good bite on you,trust me you will forget everything you ever thought you knew.Biting is one of the most painfull thing that can ever happen to you.
Yea I escaped and I have the scars to prove it. If you bite some one and lock on,it feels like that part of your body is on fire.
And you cant bite the leg on a good armbar. I tried it in class ,and it didnt work.
R.J. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Brewer:
Hello,
I know we all saw the Ultimate Fighting Championships.And the over all out come of most of the fights.Yes, the grapplers really did a good job.Just because the grapplers are the best at what they do doesn't mean that what they do is the best.I mean that if a grappler tried to put a arm lock on me the way they were doing it on tv,he would immediately be missing a piece of meat about bite size out of his calf muscle.And I believe that going to the ground in a street fight is the worst thing that one would want to do.Let's look at another thing.What if the grappler is facing two assailants,if he ties one up and goes to the ground the other one is going to be kicking him up side the head.Now don't get me wrong I Love all the Martial Arts and have trained and practiced in Judo myself.I just think that this is an interesting subject to discuss.
Your Brother in the Arts
[/QUOTE]

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#116563 - 03/07/03 06:08 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
UKfightfreak Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco
Have a look at Geoff Thompsons books at http://www.geoffthompson.com

A lot of stuff on ground and standup fighting for the street.

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#116564 - 03/12/03 12:19 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
JMurray Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 8
Loc: Yokohama, Japan
I'm far from an expert, but I didn't see any mention of the possible grip problem.

A judoka usually depends on getting a good grip on the opponents shirt or jacket in order to have control. In my one experience in a confrontation, I instinctively grabbed the guy's T shirt and it just ripped off as he backed up.

If I have to get in a fight again, I hope it's not in the summer.

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#116565 - 03/12/03 12:24 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
JMurray Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 8
Loc: Yokohama, Japan
That's not to say I think judo is ineffective, by the way. It is.
I just haven't learned that many alternatives to the basic judo grips.

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#116566 - 03/12/03 07:11 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
If you have to grip a tshirt, try to grab the collar, as its reinforced.

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#116567 - 03/13/03 02:33 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Most throws can be done without gripping clothing at all. Try training without gi jackets and I think you will be surprised at how easily it all comes together.

Budo

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#116568 - 03/13/03 11:55 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Having recovered from 'time out' Cato is correct again. There are many times you can 'hook' an arm or neck and throw without grabbing. we use a couple of different neck throws and accomplish this by 'cupping' the neck and trying to place it between their legs, you are not grabbing anything, but in the same regard(and here comes my nasty side)instead of cupping the neck throw him by his hair.
One other little note, we use heel palm strikes as a facilatator in our throws. We heel palm the chin for a hip throw, so we don't have to grab. In many cases we substitute strikes for grabs in our throws.

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#116569 - 03/15/03 08:39 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
JMurray Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 8
Loc: Yokohama, Japan
Thanks, Sensei.
I've often wondered about that.
Next time I get the chance I'll try some gripless randori.

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#116570 - 03/18/03 06:37 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
JudoJohn Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 14
I also wondered about the street effectiveness of Judo. I am able to throw during practice, but the minute we move to randori, all bets are off. I can't seem to grasp the ju of judo. If someone is pulling you down to the front, how can you give way? When somenone is gripping you hard an attempting to throw you down, how can you stop this? Can someone please help?

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#116571 - 03/19/03 12:37 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
Here is just a thought. In the Judo/Aikido Arts you are taught to go with the opponets energy. So and this is just an option,go with his throw you and while you are going over(throw yourself, don't let him throw you)counter, and when you hit the ground continue the throw and throw him. we practice this from a O'Goshi, Koshi Nage whatever you want to call it. we use the weight of the thrower and when we hit, we continue to our side and throw. Some call this sutemi waza, or sacrafice throwing
Now I will step into some dangerous territory, Judo practice in the dojo can be applied differently on the street. There are no rues for the street. If someone is trying to throw you on the street-Bust'em, do some striking to stop his momentum. When you go to throw, you use kazushi(unbalancing) before the throw, well use your striking to unbalance the person who is going to throw you and counter. I don't know where you are in your training, but later on we practice reversing throws, by one taking the throw and continuing the throw on the thrower, or stopping his throw and creating your own.

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#116572 - 03/19/03 10:21 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
John,I'm sorry I don't know your MA history so it is difficult to offer advice without appearing a little patronising. Please forgive me if I do, It isn't intentional.

Lou is absolutely right, sutemi waza is an option when your balance is about to be broken. Also keep in mind the different directions in which you can throw your opponent. If you're being pulled, forward offer momentary resistance and then launch a counter that utilises the pull of you opponent. The obvious example would be O'soto gari, but there are so many others you can use.

The important thing is to develop a strategy to in your fighting to cope with being pushed or pulled in any direction. Remember also that some shime waza can be applied quickly whilst standing, and will often put an attacking opponent on the defensive very quickly, even if they are unsuccessull.

As for street fighting, it is my experience that untrained fighters usually fight off balance for most of the time, so a trained judoka has plenty of opportunties to apply techniques.

Hope that helps

Budo.

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#116573 - 03/19/03 06:41 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
JudoJohn Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 14
Cato/Senseilou,
Thank you for your suggestions. I am new to MA. Judo is my first attempt at the arts and I do enjoy learning it. I am about 9 months into training and obtained my yellow belt last week. Do you have any suggestions for good videos or books for home training? I have Kodokan Judo and Best Judo books and a tape from Steve Cunningham. Thanks again...

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#116574 - 03/20/03 12:02 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Congratulations on the yellow belt, John. I always think the first one is the hardest to get, so you're on the downhill stretch already!!!

I'm not really a great fan of instructional video, and I don't have any myself. A good book for judo technique is: The A - Z of Judo by Syd Hoare. It contains just about every judo technique you'll ever need, as well as plenty that are banned in competition but form part of the original kodokan syllabus. There is also a series called "Judo masterclass" published by Ippon books that covers everything from shime waza to grips.

Enjoy your training and keep in touch

Budo

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#116575 - 03/21/03 12:15 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
Scholar Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 472
Loc: Brockton
The art of block to grip, such as with a moving punch or kick. Isn't this how it's done in real life? Wing chun has sticky hands, Bagua has Rhou Shou, Tai chi has push hands, who can come up with Randori like that?
Re; problems with Toris , The push pull principle combined with footwork required like the footwork of Aikido or Bagua as far as circular and sidestepping to be able to yield and overcome. Other than the moves of a technique footwork wasn't focused when I studied it. Is there any forms that practice judo footwork or is it all technique oriented?oriented?

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#116576 - 05/16/03 04:22 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
kman Offline
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Registered: 05/15/03
Posts: 368
Loc: minnesota
Two related points I'd like to make., I used that bite move to break a headlock that a body builder type put on me one time. Worked like a charm a moment before hew as about to break my neck like a chickens. I do armed uniformed security now. Ive found that a throw will take most street fighters out of their game and buy me a moment to armbar them onto their bellies for cuffing or allow me to create some space so i can go for a weapon. ive found that osoto gari or tai otoshi will do the job 90 percent of the time. And a hand cuff on one wrist makes for a great handle to do kazushi! Peace!

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#116577 - 05/25/03 02:45 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
Anonymous
Unregistered


about arm bars and biting the calf. In a street situation, if you do not immediately get the armbar and destroy the elbow, you have the option of repeatedly kicking the opponent in the face until he is "weakened" enough to accept the technique.

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#116578 - 05/25/03 08:21 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
UKfightfreak Offline
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Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kman:
Two related points I'd like to make., I used that bite move to break a headlock that a body builder type put on me one time. Worked like a charm a moment before hew as about to break my neck like a chickens. I do armed uniformed security now. Ive found that a throw will take most street fighters out of their game and buy me a moment to armbar them onto their bellies for cuffing or allow me to create some space so i can go for a weapon. ive found that osoto gari or tai otoshi will do the job 90 percent of the time. And a hand cuff on one wrist makes for a great handle to do kazushi! Peace![/QUOTE]

Excellent concept for match fighting, but if he pulls you down, even people that have nothing to do with it will probably put the boot in!!

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#116579 - 05/28/03 05:36 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
kman Offline
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Registered: 05/15/03
Posts: 368
Loc: minnesota
To Ukfightfreak,,we're pretty much on the same page.The comment about people jumping in is so true. Thats why one of my priorities is not to get pulled into a pileup on the ground. Even though Ive done judo and BJJ it's a vulnerable place to be. Not to mention that it's difficult to grapple when I'm wearing a duty belt with all the toys and a kevlar vest, Combined weight 25 lbs and a real possibility of losing my gun in the process. My best stategy is to maintain some distance and use a nonlethal such as pepper spray. And being upright and able to place my hand on my colt is a great help when "requesting" other people to keep their distance. All that having been said , I still like like a throw to get a badguy down so I can move things along on my terms instead of reacting to him.

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#116580 - 06/09/03 08:08 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
JKogas Offline
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Against someone biting the calf when you're attempting the armbar, I just repeatedly hit him in the face with the back of my knee (by bending, then extending the leg ballistically into his face) repeatedly until he gets the idea and I get the lock.

-John

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#116581 - 06/10/03 09:39 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
joesixpack Offline
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Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
I don't argue that you cannot generate power from it, but once they've latched on, if they don't let go, permament damage will ensue.

Don't give biters a chance, kick them in the face of throat BEFORE armbar is applied.

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#116582 - 06/15/03 08:24 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
kempo_jujitsu Offline
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Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
good point, also, you dont absolutely have to have your leg around their chest neck area ...just plant your heal into their neck and apply the armbar
and as for judoka gripping the gi to throw...ive done this in street clothes and shirts (even the collars) tear easily, however you could do well by studying true traditional jujitsu as their throws dont rely on gripping clothing. however most schools arent really teaching traditional jujitsu throws, everyone teaches judo type throws these days. to find a real traditional school try to find a yoshin ryu school or something very old like yoshin ryu is. in yoshin both styles are taught now...traditional..and judo style. just a suggestion. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

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#116583 - 06/16/03 04:31 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
immrtldragon Offline
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Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
There are still many Judo throws that do not use the Gi for the throw (some hold the wrist(S), arm, waist, and neck-like a headlock). I beleive Judo throws could be extremely effective, even to an attacker with no shirt. Even Osoto Gari can be done by gripping the throat and arm, as oposed to the gi. I belive Judo can be very effective on the street for a single attacker with little modification.

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#116584 - 08/04/03 02:38 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
Gargoyle Offline
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Registered: 08/04/03
Posts: 10
Loc: Davinport, FL, USA
Let me start with, "I'm Dyslexic so please exuse my spelling." Thanks.
1st- I started martial arts a round 22 years ago with Judo. For 18 years it was mostly Judo with some Isshinryu karate. Then I started going to all the Dojos I could fined, and the ones I liked I cepped going back. (JuJitsu, Ti-kua-do, Kung-fu, Mui-ti, Capuera.. to name the ones I when to more than a few times)
In all that time training and in moset of the fights I have had to indure, ther is something that no one has realy talked about.
Balince after years of judo I could see how people move and where they are going to move, and bye training with a blined fold I learned to feal what they wher doing. onec you learn to detcit where ther balince is you can use it. All movemint has to be compancated for so that you dont fall.
I was atacked bye a gupe of 4 with my back agenst a wall one time (I hade kicked one of them out of a bar for grabing a bear tub girl two nights befor) after geting hit bye the 1st guy I grabed a hand full of shirt at center chest and puled him in with his lunge. My leag extended to stop his leed foot short. He whent face first into the wall. with him dazed a bit I put him between the uther three and my self. I then grabed the wrist of the first one that tyed going around the stund man, and pulled him off balince spining him agenst the wall ... well you get the drift. Bye keeping them off balince I could control how and where they moved.

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#116585 - 10/22/03 07:14 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
Judokid Offline
Member

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 184
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
Congratulations on the yellow belt, John. I always think the first one is the hardest to get, so you're on the downhill stretch already!!!

I'm not really a great fan of instructional video, and I don't have any myself. A good book for judo technique is: The A - Z of Judo by Syd Hoare. It contains just about every judo technique you'll ever need, as well as plenty that are banned in competition but form part of the original kodokan syllabus. There is also a series called "Judo masterclass" published by Ippon books that covers everything from shime waza to grips.

Enjoy your training and keep in touch

Budo

[/QUOTE]


Sensei Nagayasu Ogasawara has a great series called "Judo: from White to Black" It has great instruction and techniques, and is a great price.

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#116586 - 10/22/03 03:49 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
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kempo_jujitsu is correct, the armbar is applied by bringing the heel toward your butt. That way, the leg isn't stretched across the face.

With a quick thrust of the hips, the arm is broken with a violent force. You're not waiting around for him to "tap" on the street anyway.


-John

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#116587 - 03/23/04 10:14 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
VJ Offline
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Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 146
Loc: San Diego, CA
I agree with Brewer. The grapplers are still fighting with rules in the Octagon. On the street someone will thumb a person in the eye, pull their ears, grab onto a fence or whatever it takes to get out of hold. Also on the streets anything is a weapon to be used. Anyone seriously looking at self defense had better train for the fight of their life because there won't be any referee stoppage.

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#116588 - 03/23/04 07:35 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Grapplers may fight with rules, but so do kickboxers. That doesn't mean that they don't know how to fight dirty. Assuming otherwise could be bad for your health. Trust me on this.

From a developed base of skills in grappling, you aren't going to be ABLE to gouge someone in the eyes or bite them before you are either choked out or your arms are broken.


-John

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#116589 - 03/24/04 09:56 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
VJ Offline
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Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 146
Loc: San Diego, CA
jkogas - I didn't mean to imply that they can't fight dirty. Anyone can use a dirty tactic however on the street I do know that it only takes a second to bite the mess out of a limb, gauge an eye, etc and no practice is needed to do this. Any technique that takes a person in close is susceptible to attack by dirty tactics like this. Also if the person doesn't go on the ground the problem becomes a stand-up game. I don't know who said that 90 percent of fights go to the ground because I haven't found a survey to support this. As such judokas need to be ready for the stand-up game as well.

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#116590 - 03/24/04 10:43 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
immrtldragon Offline
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Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
Any Judoka who wants to be good at Judo should practice Judo. Any Judoka who wants to be able to defend themselves against a skilled opponent should practice all ranges of fighting. Common sense. I just started boxing and already feel that it is more suited for self defense than the years of Tang Soo Do...but hold on, boxing is also a sport...there are rules...I could get my hair pulled in a real fight...but not before someone eats a couple jabs to deter them. As far as eye gouges and such...won't work against a skilled grappler unless the person applying them is a skilled grappler and knows how to control their opponent. You reaching to gouge my eyes is going to leave you much more open to a more punishing attack by me (eg: armbar). If fighting was as easy as "I'll bite you, then pull your hair" it wouldn't be necessary to train...evryone would just scrath people's eyes out. Women would never get attacked because the attacker would realize she can simply knee him in the groin. I'm finished with Judo and Boxing, I'm gonna go practice my ear biting!! Seriously, do you people think it is that easy to beat a skilled fighter with foul tactics?

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#116591 - 03/24/04 06:31 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
JKogas Offline
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Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
VJ -- Agreed that people need a standing game. There has been no disagreement along that line of thought by anyone really.

Regarding your point that "foul tactics" don't need practice -- This is the very reason for their very unreliability and, resultant dangers of relying upon them to do your "dirty work". There is no "art" behind their use and practice. That is their own undoing.

Just remember that the skilled individual will be the one in the better position to utilize the foul tactic. In other words, if you have no appreciable ground skills and fight someone who does, don't expect a foul tactic to save you. In fact, without such skill, it may be YOU who becomes a victim of such an attack. This is all I'm saying.


-John

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#116592 - 03/25/04 09:24 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
VJ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 146
Loc: San Diego, CA
John-

First off, I don't mean to undermine the importance of having a good ground game as well as a good striking game. Under no circumstance should anyone depend on a "dirty tactic" as a life saver.

However I disagree with these tactics being their own undoing. A poke in the eye for example is quick and effective without practice. If someone is trying to choke you out from behind and the opportunity presents itself to thumb them in the eye it will work. This "dirty tactic" along with a good knowledge will give that victim a chance to turn things around.

This is my point. The schools where I live teach only the "sport" side and not the "martial art" side of Judo. Sadly these teachers tell their students that their "sport" Judo will save their lives.

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#116593 - 03/28/04 07:41 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
JKogas Offline
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Loc: North Carolina
VJ -- The problem with these tactics, is that you can only ASSUME that they "will work". There really are no guarantees that such foul tactics will do the job that many think they will. This is often not known until they try it and find out for themselves. How does one "practice" such things anyway, "pretend" to do them and have your partners "play along"??

-John

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#116594 - 03/29/04 09:40 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
VJ Offline
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Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 146
Loc: San Diego, CA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
VJ -- The problem with these tactics, is that you can only ASSUME that they "will work". There really are no guarantees that such foul tactics will do the job that many think they will. This is often not known until they try it and find out for themselves. How does one "practice" such things anyway, "pretend" to do them and have your partners "play along"??

-John
[/QUOTE]
I disagree about the "trying" part. Eye gauges have been proven effective, groin strikes, etc., have been proven effective. If you doubt this just ask a kid to poke you in the eye and the temporary blindness will prove my point.

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#116595 - 03/29/04 04:08 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
VJ-

Eye gouges have also been "proven" INEFFECTIVE. So where does that leave us? Back to the conclusion that such tactics are unreliable.

I have been poked in the eye before. Sometimes it's debilitating, other times it hasn't been. That's been my point all along. It certainly wouldn't make me stop fighting and, under certain circumstances, would only make me fight harder.

Groin shots haven't been "proven" either, in much the same way. I've been hit in the groin in a fight. It didn't hurt until after the fight was over.

It only serves to underscore the fact that you cannot rely on fight stoppers to stop fights.

About the only things you can rely on to do this is head trauma and structural damage.


-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 03-29-2004).]

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#116596 - 03/30/04 11:55 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
VJ Offline
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Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 146
Loc: San Diego, CA
JKogas-

If a person is hyped up then yes they will keep coming. However I know that if someone SERIOUSLY pokes you in the eye it will have a traumatic effect on your body. This "cheap trick" have been proven by several SEAL team members in combat.

In the end the only true way to survive is avoidance. That note said how can judo be more effective. I read an article that emphasized judoka participating in tournaments. Tournaments are fine for honing skills and techniques. Yet more realistic training needs to be added which focuses on fighting without the gi or relying on clothing for a good grip (shirts will tear with minimal resistance) and atemi waza. Most importantly training must focus on the mindset and adrenaline rush that happens in a real situation.

[This message has been edited by VJ (edited 03-31-2004).]

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#116597 - 03/31/04 03:42 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
So because a SEAL team does it means that its proven beyond all doubt?

Let me ask you a question; does the name Yuki Nakai mean anything to you? He was thumbed so badly in the eye (during a sportive fight) that he lost the sight in that eye. He WON that fight and the fight afterward as well. He fought yet again a THIRD time as well and might've won THAT had he not been fighting Rickson Gracie.

I can also share a few other instances with you where there "foul" tactics didn't do the job that people thought that they would.

More to come on that...


-John

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#116598 - 04/02/04 12:01 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
VJ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 146
Loc: San Diego, CA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
So because a SEAL team does it means that its proven beyond all doubt?

Let me ask you a question; does the name Yuki Nakai mean anything to you? He was thumbed so badly in the eye (during a sportive fight) that he lost the sight in that eye. He WON that fight and the fight afterward as well. He fought yet again a THIRD time as well and might've won THAT had he not been fighting Rickson Gracie.

-John

[/QUOTE]

Sorry for Mr. Yuki Nakai but he did lose regardless of whether or not it was Rickson Gracie. The fact is no tactic is 100 percent reliable whether it is a judo throw or a "foul" technique. Many of fights have been stopped by both.

As for the SEALs this team doesn't live by guessing good techniques but by using them. If you are asking if I'd trust the technique of a person who must live or die by it over a technique that looks good in a tournament - well you figure that one out.

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#116599 - 04/02/04 04:30 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
JKogas Offline
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Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Actually, SEAL teams do NOT rely on empty hand techniques.

Remember the UFC where Jerry Bohlander fought the Navy Seal by the name of Rainy Martinez? Bohlander beat him easily. Seals aren't the empty hand fighters that myth and Hollywood make them out to be. There are proficient with weapons. That's what they are supposed to be fighting with. They spend VERY little time on empty hands stuff, with the exception of what they can manage to get on their own time usually.

With all the said, I am not implying that an eye jab is not going to be an effective tactic. Only that people place WAY too much emphasis on tactics like those that are impracticable. Anything that isn't practicable (untrainable) just isn't something that I'd be betting my well being on. Give me a good solid jab/cross over a eye gouge ANY day.

-John

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#116600 - 04/02/04 10:20 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
VJ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 146
Loc: San Diego, CA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
Remember the UFC where Jerry Bohlander fought the Navy Seal by the name of Rainy Martinez? Bohlander beat him easily. Seals aren't the empty hand fighters that myth and Hollywood make them out to be. There are proficient with weapons. That's what they are supposed to be fighting with. They spend VERY little time on empty hands stuff, with the exception of what they can manage to get on their own time usually.

-John
[/QUOTE]

I agree that SEALS are proficient in weapons training. However the need to be able to fight hand-to-hand is very important for their survival if the weapon jams. As for a SEAL losing to Jerry Bohlander that is an exception. How many people fight that well in reality and how many SEALS are trained to fight within rules? I am not alluding to the idea that "dirty tactics" are the end all. Yes, the techniques practiced and refined in near-real situations are better. One former SEAL leader teaches self-defense for real world survival and another has written several successful books detailing how they survived actual combat situations. I am not stating that "dirty tactics" are the end all. Practiced techniques in which one feels able to respond naturally under stressful situations are the best but improvising can also spell the difference between running away alive and laying dead or beaten somewhere.

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#116601 - 04/03/04 04:33 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by VJ:
How many people fight that well in reality and how many SEALS are trained to fight within rules? [/QUOTE]

So what are you saying, that it's possible to have your ass handed to you completely in the ring and be able to hand the OTHER guy his ass OUTSIDE of the ring?

Think about that carefully. Consider also that sport guys know how to fight dirty.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by VJ:

Practiced techniques in which one feels able to respond naturally under stressful situations are the best but improvising can also spell the difference between running away alive and laying dead or beaten somewhere.
[/QUOTE]

By practiced, do you mean rehearsed? If so, how are you rehearsing these "techniques", with cooperation?

-John

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#116602 - 04/29/04 03:28 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
VJ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 146
Loc: San Diego, CA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
By practiced, do you mean rehearsed? If so, how are you rehearsing these "techniques", with cooperation?

-John

[/QUOTE]

John, have you ever attended any of the reality combat schools like RMCAT? If not then it explains why you still seem to live in a dream-like state. Try writing a letter to one of these instructors like Peyton Quinn or Bill Kipp or Michael Pace and explain your viewpoint. They will probably enlighten you, if you listen, on what actually occurs in a streetfight.

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#116603 - 05/06/04 03:21 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
Judo/JiuJitsu Info Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/06/04
Posts: 8
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mitch77:
About the best street technique.
I was a boxer.
I went from there to Karate (was beating
blackbelts during 1st bouts I had).
Became a cop studied Judo/ground...
As you know if you have studied the results.
Boxing is the most effective of the striking arts. And 1 on 1 judo or grappling trumps boxing. However when 'anything goes' you need some of it all esp heart and speed. And
above all, when assulted by numbers you better be willing to try and hurt the 1st couple as
much as you are able in the 1st few seconds.
Side kicks to the knee to break it backwards.
Front edge blows to the neck etc.

One on one, esp if you can box, you can afford to be merciful. Any boxer with below average skill can totally nutralize the kick (it is WAY too slow). Pinwheels are a joke (boxers jump rope for hours). You give a boxer a leg and he will take it, (and knock you out.)
In the early 70s, 1st ABC wide world of sports, then Karate Illustrated each put on bouts between top name karatekas and no-name club boxers.
Both bouts had to be stopped by the 3rd to save the karateka's from brain damage.
Ali challenged all the top marshall arts guys. No takers. Pro karate started requiring 8 kicks per round because boxers were taking over, now all the top guys have pro boxing trainers.
So you want the best all round system;
Lots of boxing, lots of Judo/grappling+
a bit of jui-jitsu for pain/compliance and karate concentrating
on kicks from the knee down - above the waist kicks are foolish outside the ring.
And not that smart inside it either.
Remember the violence you see on TV is neither real nor realistic.
Also if confronted by numbers;
most importantly look for any opportunity to escape and evade
I am not being cute, I am serious.
[/QUOTE]


I agree as disagree with some of your points. Adversely, using tactical street smarts are more important in any given situation.

In regards to boxing, hmmm, so so, it's okay, but, you might not have come across a Muay Thai fighter, which has a combination of punches/elbows/knees and especially there shin.

Regarding Ali, great fighter during his time, his challenge wasn't probably taken seriously. ABC wide world of sports with the karate guy being bashed by the boxers. Karate is so, ummm commercial. It has its advantages but, i don't think it will do too well in street fights. As far as striking goes, Jiu Jitsu applies simple strikes as similiar to karate, open hand, straight punches, but then you have the additional chokes, locks and pins.

So if you really think about it Jiu Jitsu will have all acceptablity to street fight comparison. In today's world the average perp knows how to fight. So in regards to street fighting know what you can do upstairs as you do downstairs. Strengthen not with boxing, but with Muay Thai or just Jiu Jitsu.

Muliple attackers, depending on your experience and YOUR ATTACKERS. Let's think no weapons 2 guys, you've trained so many times, see the situation, divide them by degrees of aggressiveness, then plan the right defense or attack, and execute towards the second attacker. Done it.

3 attackers, as you can tell it becomes a bit harder. weapons or no weapons, as what you said evade and escape, but there are ways to defend against such amount.

4 attachers, whoo, what put you there in the first place.

5 call 911. j/k evade and escape is the smartest answer anyone can give you.

Boxing, I don't think so. Don't get me wrong, just your arms. Please look into UFC, Pride Fighting and or King of the Cage competitions where there were many golden gloves boxers and as well as former champions get seriously messed up.

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#116604 - 05/06/04 11:07 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
immrtldragon Offline
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Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
I wouldn't discredit boxing so much and give so much respect to the kickboxers. A boxers hands have made up for their lack of kicking in many Pride/UFC fights. Vitor Belfort, Phil Baroni, and many others have showed thatboxing alone can put people out before others can get a kick off. Not to mention, you will rarely find the 'best' boxers in an MMA tournament...because they make more $ in professional boxing. Top kickboxers, however, don't make too much and may be better off in MMA. Even though they punch and use kicks, their hands will never compare to an equally trained boxer. It all comes down to the person in this scenario, but the best boxer will beat the best kickboxer more often than not, IMO. Problem is, you will never really see the best boxer fight the best kickboxer because a boxer's purse is high...especially if your the best. Not saying kickboxing is bad...but I would be very hesitant to say it is better than boxing.

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#116605 - 05/06/04 01:06 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
VJ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 146
Loc: San Diego, CA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Judo/JiuJitsu Info:

I agree as disagree with some of your points. Adversely, using tactical street smarts are more important in any given situation.

In regards to boxing, hmmm, so so, it's okay, but, you might not have come across a Muay Thai fighter, which has a combination of punches/elbows/knees and especially there shin.

Regarding Ali, great fighter during his time, his challenge wasn't probably taken seriously. ABC wide world of sports with the karate guy being bashed by the boxers. Karate is so, ummm commercial. It has its advantages but, i don't think it will do too well in street fights. As far as striking goes, Jiu Jitsu applies simple strikes as similiar to karate, open hand, straight punches, but then you have the additional chokes, locks and pins.

So if you really think about it Jiu Jitsu will have all acceptablity to street fight comparison. In today's world the average perp knows how to fight. So in regards to street fighting know what you can do upstairs as you do downstairs. Strengthen not with boxing, but with Muay Thai or just Jiu Jitsu.

Muliple attackers, depending on your experience and YOUR ATTACKERS. Let's think no weapons 2 guys, you've trained so many times, see the situation, divide them by degrees of aggressiveness, then plan the right defense or attack, and execute towards the second attacker. Done it.

3 attackers, as you can tell it becomes a bit harder. weapons or no weapons, as what you said evade and escape, but there are ways to defend against such amount.

4 attachers, whoo, what put you there in the first place.

5 call 911. j/k evade and escape is the smartest answer anyone can give you.

Boxing, I don't think so. Don't get me wrong, just your arms. Please look into UFC, Pride Fighting and or King of the Cage competitions where there were many golden gloves boxers and as well as former champions get seriously messed up.
[/QUOTE]

So should we conclude that boxing needs to be include as part of judo training for the streets? Just asking.

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#116606 - 05/06/04 05:21 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Actually, it's BECAUSE of boxing skill that competitors in the UFC are getting wins by striking these days!

Adding boxing to judo will not only give you that added striking advantage, it will help set up throws better by enabling you to obtain a better position in the clinch. The better your stand up (boxing) game is, the better your clinch game is (and the better your ground game will be as well...)


-John

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#116607 - 05/06/04 05:31 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
WADO Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/23/04
Posts: 900
Loc: denver co usa
Remember boxing was also a battlefield art in ancient Greece. The ancient greek Olympics killed a higher percentage of contestants than ancient Roman Gladiatorial games.

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#116608 - 05/07/04 03:14 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
VJ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 146
Loc: San Diego, CA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
Actually, it's BECAUSE of boxing skill that competitors in the UFC are getting wins by striking these days!

Adding boxing to judo will not only give you that added striking advantage, it will help set up throws better by enabling you to obtain a better position in the clinch. The better your stand up (boxing) game is, the better your clinch game is (and the better your ground game will be as well...)


-John
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for answering my question John and Wado and I agree with your points! However traditional judo uses atemi-waza. Should this be discarded for boxing since it contains sparring or added to it?

Supposedly atemi-waza is fatal when used correctly but no reports of anyone in judo using it correctly in a street fight. Veteran judo players swear it is too dangerous for sports.

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#116609 - 05/28/04 09:23 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have been reading with large interest your various views on Judo and if it is effective as a street defense art.

I feel that street fight fall into the category of an incident creating stress,tention,crisis.actually , and contrary to business stress which can be as sudden , here we have to deal with our lives,once someone attacks us , without us expecting to receive such an attack threatening us.

The skills one needs to defend in the case of such an attack are mainly : 1/Be in a good physical and mental position 2/ Be ready "NOT TO CRACK" under pressure 3/Know how to defend ones'self. On many cases , the fact that one has these 3 skills may even prevent the attacker taking the risk of attacking.

I believe of course that once the attacker is carrying weapons on him
( Knives/Gun/Broken Bottle ..whatever) only the very skilfull in martial arts or the experienced in such street fights can equal the advantage a weapon carried by the opponent gives to him. It would be silly for a Green Belt of Judo or Karate to think he can master an outlaw with a knife ...and fools get killed.

Concluding , I feel that Judo is a sport the way it is conducted nowdays. And Judo WANTS to be a sport.It wants to appeal to Men,Women,Kids and expand worldwide.It does not want to attract ONLY the people who want to learn the MARTIAL part but also the ART part of the whole sentence , MARTIAL ARTS.

BUT , Judo gives you all the three skills you need to be able to defend from an attack bringing stress and explosive crisis.It boosts your body in a very good condition as it combines aerobic exercise , it develops the muscles VERY Much and it makes the mind think in order to learn the techniques and be able to perform them at the speed of light as if you were a robot.It creates calmness of mind under an attack : you can never win in Judo competition or in Randori if you are nervous and stiff. And it certainly is a very essential defense art which uses the opponents force to throw him. Let us not forget that in a street fight unless you are the bully , the attacker moves towards you . Judo teaches how to use his movement with yours to make him move faster towards you and defend efficiently.

I believe that if one asked the question in the place of what would be the best art for an attacker in the street , there are certainly other arts which can serve better this purpose.But Judo is the gentle way , it has no intention in every day life to harm the other unless the other wants to harm the Judoka. In every day life.

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#116610 - 05/28/04 09:26 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have been reading with large interest your various views on Judo and if it is effective as a street defense art.

I feel that street fight fall into the category of an incident creating stress,tention,crisis.actually , and contrary to business stress which can be as sudden , here we have to deal with our lives,once someone attacks us , without us expecting to receive such an attack threatening us.

The skills one needs to defend in the case of such an attack are mainly : 1/Be in a good physical and mental position 2/ Be ready "NOT TO CRACK" under pressure 3/Know how to defend ones'self. On many cases , the fact that one has these 3 skills may even prevent the attacker taking the risk of attacking.

I believe of course that once the attacker is carrying weapons on him
( Knives/Gun/Broken Bottle ..whatever) only the very skilfull in martial arts or the experienced in such street fights can equal the advantage a weapon carried by the opponent gives to him. It would be silly for a Green Belt of Judo or Karate to think he can master an outlaw with a knife ...and fools get killed.

Concluding , I feel that Judo is a sport the way it is conducted nowdays. And Judo WANTS to be a sport.It wants to appeal to Men,Women,Kids and expand worldwide.It does not want to attract ONLY the people who want to learn the MARTIAL part but also the ART part of the whole sentence , MARTIAL ARTS.

BUT , Judo gives you all the three skills you need to be able to defend from an attack bringing stress and explosive crisis.It boosts your body in a very good condition as it combines aerobic exercise , it develops the muscles VERY Much and it makes the mind think in order to learn the techniques and be able to perform them at the speed of light as if you were a robot.It creates calmness of mind under an attack : you can never win in Judo competition or in Randori if you are nervous and stiff. And it certainly is a very essential defense art which uses the opponents force to throw him. Let us not forget that in a street fight unless you are the bully , the attacker moves towards you . Judo teaches how to use his movement with yours to make him move faster towards you and defend efficiently.

I believe that if one asked the question in the place of what would be the best art for an attacker in the street , there are certainly other arts which can serve better this purpose.But Judo is the gentle way , it has no intention in every day life to harm the other unless the other wants to harm the Judoka. In every day life.

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#116611 - 05/31/04 01:17 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well Iv'e got to tell you something to those people that dont think judo or any grappling art is effective in a street fight.

1/ It is a strong point to use becuase most likely your opponent off the street is not knoledgable in the intracasies of grappling, therefor you can totally outclass him.

2/ Since their lack of training, they will most likely charge at you with a barrage of punches trying to release their anger in what primitive instincts they know. This leaves the legs wide open from a take-down defence, so you initiate and shoot for a take-down.

Iv'e actually got a story...my brother who has been studying judo for many years amung other various martial arts was encountered in a shopping mall. He was walking along when someone punched the side of his head. Bewildered by the lack of respect and reason to do such a thing, he walked after the man that was walking back to his mates. There were three of them that were luaghing at him.
My brother then began lecturing them about descensy and manners...lol
The same person tried punching him, my bro put up his guard blocking every shot. Pissed off by this he picked the guy off his feet with one hand by the throat ( his index finger and his thumb meeting behind his wind pipe...a pincer move in kung fu ) and slammed him down on the floor. One jumped on his back, so he flung him over his shoulder onto a marble wall. He didn't even strike a guy once ( he would have done serious damage if he had ) but it showed them what damage he could weil. The other one ran away as the one squished against the wall pleaded that he didn't do anything. My brother at that time was only 18, and police records showed that the three were in their 20's.

It was a funny site.

Train hard folks, and those who think judo won't help in a fight haven't been in a fight against a judo practitionar.

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#116612 - 06/01/04 06:23 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
1/ It is a strong point to use becuase most likely your opponent off the street is not knoledgable in the intracasies of grappling, therefor you can totally outclass him.

That is so true. When you are ont op of an untrained person there first reaction, is to either extend there arm to try an push you off (im a not the greatest armbar person but when they just give it to you anyone can do it), or iff you hit them a few times roll over to protect there face (they will not put there chin down because they have no idea what a rear naked choke is).

All it takes is the most basic knowledge to beat the average person at grappling. However with striking the average person knows to protect their face.

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#116613 - 09/04/04 12:00 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by mitch77:
About the best street technique.
Any boxer with below average skill can totally nutralize the kick (it is WAY too slow).
[/QUOTE]

Probably true regarding high fancy kicks - but not when you talk about Muay Thai kicks! Muay Thai kicks are typically low such as to your thigh or lower leg below the knee. Its hard to reach all the way down there to block the kick before it lands. Also Muay Thai likes to clinch and slam elbows and knees which works good with judo because it also works well from the clinch.

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#116614 - 09/04/04 12:17 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by JMurray:

I'm far from an expert, but I didn't see any mention of the possible grip problem.

A judoka usually depends on getting a good grip on the opponents shirt or jacket in order to have control. In my one experience in a confrontation, I instinctively grabbed the guy's T shirt and it just ripped off as he backed up.

If I have to get in a fight again, I hope it's not in the summer.
[/QUOTE]

Murray, pretty much any judo throw can be done without the gi. All you have to do is clinch (bodyhug) the guy. Watch the good judokas in class do Randori. Many of their grips are ones that go around the back or like a headlock, underhooking or overhooking, around the waist etc. They do grab the gi also yes, but if you go for a hip throw (O-goshi) for example and he is not wearing a gi or maybe his gi is too tight to grab you will still have him tight enough to throw him simply by the fact that your arm is wrapped around his waist tightly.

What you need to do is don't always go for the lapel grip everytime you do randori but try other various grips. All good judokas do this anyway. If you're not at a level where you do this then you should practice some uchi-komis reguarly with different types of grips so that you condition your mind to get used to this.

I've done gi-less throws such as Uchimata and Tai-Otoshi and O-sotogari on the street and they worked very well for me. But I already confronted the issue in my mind before those incidents occurred so that I was mentally ready to do it without a gi.

Did you see karo P. fight in his first MMA competition? All judo throws and without a shirt on!!

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#116615 - 09/04/04 12:49 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by VJ:
John-

If someone is trying to choke you out from behind and the opportunity presents itself to thumb them in the eye it will work. This "dirty tactic" along with a good knowledge will give that victim a chance to turn things around.

[/QUOTE]

Thats a big "IF". Real hard to do if I'm behind you. All I have to do is turn my head, or squeeze my eye shut tightly. You can't see me. I can also rear up and elbow strike you in the back of the head. I'm in the tactically advantageous position which gives me several options. My point is that once someone has a solid submission hold on you - its gonna be over in about 2 seconds. Even Steven Segal got choked out by gene LeBell from behind - TWICE!! if anyone could have used an eye poke it should have been him!

At the same time I'm not discounting them as possible useful tactics to learn and use. Just saying it is not gonna be as simple as some think.

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#116616 - 09/17/04 11:29 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
Anonymous
Unregistered


wow, this has been a terrific thread. in fact, i was just having a similar conversation with a guy at work. ditto the boxers and the muay thai fighters (big difference between saying kickboxer and saying muay thai). i think one point that hasn't been mentioned, but has definately been referenced, albeit subtly, is aggression. the biggest problem with judo being effective in the street isn't the lack of striking, it's the fact that we use it to win a point. we spend most of the night throwing each other with the intention of our uke's getting back up so we can keep working out with them. i've only been in a couple fights myself, but i've know plenty of guys (and girls) from the martial arts world get into plenty of fights. some of the stories were not happy (like black belts getting their rear ends handed to them by "unskilled" fighters. i think what it really comes down to is "how far are you willing to go?"
i like to think that judo attracts the more civilized of the fighting men. those of us who want competition, we want carnage, we want physical exertion, but we also want to know that we didn't kill somebody every weekend. it is exactly this type of mindset that can upset your fight. this is where the boxers and muay thai guys have us beat. gloves or not, their goal is to pummel their opponents into defeat. a boxer will hit you as many times as it takes to knock you down, and the muay thai guys will hit you as hard as it takes to make you fall down. THIS IS WHY THEY TRAIN.
as for the dirty shots, well, tai otoshi has been proven effective on cement, too. 'nuff said. sometimes i flip the visor up on my helmet while i'm riding my motorcycle. caught a beetle in the eye at 90mph. didn't lose control of my bike, i doubt i would've lost control of a fight. my friend jack got tangled in my gi on a botched o-ouchi gari, fell knee first into my crotch. i mopped the mat with him LIFTING HIM BACK TO HIS FEET after each throw for almost a full minute, after which, i sat down and just hurt all the way up to my stomach. granted, i didn't get back up for about 20 minutes, but you get the point.
ditto the point about practicing without a gi. tips i've learned. don't use the pinkie to enforce a grip. use a grip like you do with the gi.. mainly fingers 3 and 4. you may not even realize this is what you do NATURALLY....check it out. the back of the elbow makes a handy grip because the rest of that bone is attached to the shoulder, think about it or get a partner to help you explore that one. the rear deltoid/latissimus dorsi makes an awesome handle if you enter from the armpit. work on belt/pants grips. almost everyone you'll fight wears pants or shorts, and they are usually VERY sturdy.
i used to have discussions like this all the time with my friend jack, who joined my judo class after studying taekwondo and shuri te karate, and he made an amazing point. styles don't matter in a fight because if you put one black belt against the other and tell them only one is walking away, somebody is going to get broken. how that relates is that EVERY art has seriously destructive techniques. the real question is "how far are you willing to go?"
once again, awesome thread guys. i think i found another home!!
later
tony

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#116617 - 09/26/04 12:53 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
Brewer: stated that if someone were to put an armlock on him, he'd be missing a piece of meat from his calf muscle. That's an attitude of survival, but it's wrong.

It's wrong because of several reasons:

1. When a fighter hits an armlock on the street, he's not going to just hold it there long enough for that too happen in the first place. He's going to be ballistically breaking the arm in nearly the exact same instance that he is putting the lock on.

2. If it's a street fight....go ahead and bite! The person biting is going to be the one with the arm in two pieces. There is STILL going to be some fight left after the break. I will take my chances with a bite.

3. Biting is something that is not practicable (not able to be practiced) in the gym so there is no way of truly knowing how a person's reaction to such a thing will be...especially when adrenaline is flowing and the pain threshold has been increased due to that.

4. With all that being said, it's better to learn to technical counter to a hold like that, than to simply go for something "crude" such as a bite. There is no "art" behind the bite and it isn't going to work on an experienced grappler plain and simple.

Learn to counters folks. Biting a grappler (or eye gouging as well) is just inviting more punishment because after you're lying there unconscious (from a choke) or with a broken arm or leg, "grappler" is just going to be mad.

Good training all!

-John
[/QUOTE]

Excellent post.

Also, re: judo throws without a gi, look at Gene LeBell student Karo Parysian (sp)--he works the judo w/o a gi quite well.

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#116618 - 09/28/04 06:43 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by rich j:
If someone gets a good bite on you,trust me you will forget everything you ever thought you knew.Biting is one of the most painfull thing that can ever happen to you.
Yea I escaped and I have the scars to prove it. If you bite some one and lock on,it feels like that part of your body is on fire.
And you cant bite the leg on a good armbar. I tried it in class ,and it didnt work.
R.J.
[/QUOTE]

I think you should avoid biting. If the skin breaks and blood enters your mouth, you're potentially at risk of contracting Aids if the opponent is HIV positive.

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#116619 - 10/13/04 06:31 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree that bites are not practiced so the reaction to that kind of pain is unpredictable.
I was in a fight and put a submission hold on my opponent when he took out a lighter to try to burn my hand to make me release the lock to stop him.
I was already under adrenaline so I was incredibly focused on stopping my opponent.
I just simply let the lighter burn me melting the flesh on my hand.
The pain gave me more adrenaline and increased the strenth of my hold.
The opponent caused pain but was not effective in his overall goal,the tactic only helped me increase my strength and endurance.
He had a chance to beat me before,I was very tired to the point of exhaustion and dizzyness,but after that strategy he had no chance.

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#116620 - 10/13/04 10:55 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
Anonymous
Unregistered


i've never been burned by a lighter, but if i'm fighting in a clinch or on the ground (two places i'm comfortable and knowledgeable), then when i feel pain, i just want to hurt the other guy MORE, to heck with the consequences. since i know my techniques, they just flow faster and harder. on a related side note, i once ashi-barai'd a coffee table that i stubbed my toe on in the middle of the night. anybody else do stuff like that? heh heh.
later
tony

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#116621 - 11/04/04 06:21 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
Anonymous
Unregistered


I must apologise first as I am not skilled in any way as I am sure most of the people posting here are. However I must bring up what I feel are valid and overlooked points. I have been in a fight or two. And being unskilled I have found that hurting the opponent to a point where they can not move while dealing with the second opponent is viable, and it has worked for me. I say this in the way that these are unskilled fighters.

The reason I state this is, you are refering to unskilled fighters here. They are not trained in fighting, they don't know how to fall. They don't know how to get up to prevent the damage from what you would consider 'a basic throw' they simply are throwing straight punches, or worse, flailing there arms.

I can say, however, that a simple reaction to an 'untrained fighter' is once a large amount of pain has been placed in a certain area, lets say for example that has been used constantly above. An arm bar. My personal first reaction to having my arm wrenched out of its socket, or worse, broken. Would be to simply scream. This posses a certain problem to the concept of biting someone. When and/or if I bit someone, and they there after put more pressure on my already hurt arm, instinct would cause me to, as an untrained fighter

A) Flinch
B) Scream out loud and more than likely squirm

These people aren't used to being thrown about, there weight is not distributed 'properly' by any means. Infact, most would be using a certain form of boxing. Straight punches at best to the facial area and maybe the chest or stomach. Infact, most fights I have seen seriously end up in an all out tackle bringing the opponent and yourself to the ground. Now, correct me if I am wrong but someone versed in Judo should definatly have the advantage when being tackled by an unskilled opponent.

Against a boxer - or multiple opponents, I have no idea. I have been boxed in a fight once and I found myself rather dazed after a few simple jabs to the face that broke my guard. I was very lucky in that my friend was near by and he did as stated above. Tackled the unsuspecting opponent and layed in a few lucky punches. To be honest I didn't know where I was.

Training in judo, and using it in street fights, as an untrained eye, seems to me to be more about conditioning ones self to have more advantages in more situations than the opponent. Not every situation is going to be ideal for you to use some masterful move. This is where improvisation is key. A simple art may be suitable enough to bring the opponent down, however an addition of, example, a straight punch to the bridge of the nose, would easily be sufficient if not available, to disable the opponent. Otherwise if not, temporarily confuse or bewilder. If the pain does not get to him the sudden flow of blood would surely make him think twice?

Please, feel free to correct me if I am wrong in saying that in a street fight improvising and using what is available is the key to winning, but in my ( granted limited ) experience in such brawls ( one or two, if that ) has been that the person who wins is always the one who gets in the best shot. That may mean going low, and to be honest when someones trying to seriously hurt you, I hold nothing back to hurting them back and all 'rules' would go out the window.

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#116622 - 11/05/04 08:31 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
Anonymous
Unregistered


I been practicing Judo for 2 years Im Orange belt. Six months ago a had to defend my myself from two attackers one of them with a knife and the other with a steel pipe and nowdays I can say that judo was totally efective. when one of them tried to cut mi face with a knife toke his arm and throw him with my tukuy waza ippon seoinage digging his head into the floor inmediately I broke his elbow and toke the knife. Then when i notice the other guy runs away screaming.

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#116623 - 11/13/04 09:05 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lenin:
I been practicing Judo for 2 years Im Orange belt. Six months ago a had to defend my myself from two attackers one of them with a knife and the other with a steel pipe and nowdays I can say that judo was totally efective. when one of them tried to cut mi face with a knife toke his arm and throw him with my tukuy waza ippon seoinage digging his head into the floor inmediately I broke his elbow and toke the knife. Then when i notice the other guy runs away screaming.[/QUOTE]

I have been pratising Judo for 4 years and am a blue belt. Honestly, to make Judo really effective, executing brutal throws is a must. Firstly, a brutal throw will leave the opponent lying in pain compared to a simple striking. One example is a circle throw that may cause the opponent to break his head. Secondly, a brutal throw will scare the other opponent into submition or flight.

Otherwise, Judo is really ineffective except for its throw. Pinning is still able to be countered by bitting which is banned in the dojo. Pinning also leaves your back open to attack by a second opponent if present. I have also found that some or most of the throws in Judo allows the opponent to fall on the back SAFELY. He could just climb up and you have to do everything again.

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#116624 - 11/13/04 11:46 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have been pratising Judo for 4 years and am a blue belt. Honestly, to make Judo really effective, executing brutal throws is a must. Firstly, a brutal throw will leave the opponent lying in pain compared to a simple striking. One example is a circle throw that may cause the opponent to break his head. Secondly, a brutal throw will scare the other opponent into submition or flight.

Otherwise, Judo is really ineffective except for its throw. Pinning is still able to be countered by bitting which is banned in the dojo. Pinning also leaves your back open to attack by a second opponent if present. I have also found that some or most of the throws in Judo allows the opponent to fall on the back SAFELY. He could just climb up and you have to do everything again.

Not all situations can be countered using Judo. If a guy kept punching you in the face, would you be able to throw him? Instinct would tell us to block it off and punch him back. Also in a fight, the adrenaline rush will cause you to forget most of the techniques you have learned. Apparently, you will have lost all your fine motor skills outside of the controlled environment(dojo).

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#116625 - 11/17/04 11:12 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
Anonymous
Unregistered


again, what that comes down to is training training training!!! have you done enough work to make your skills second nature? i can't help but throw a foot sweep... from close range, clinch, whatever. all "fine" motor skills may be impaired by adrenaline, but gross motor skills are more difficult to shake. while i agree that pins are rediculous for a street fight (barring situations where you know EVERYBODY and it's one person being a fool, perhaps a drunk friend), judo still has offensive ground techniques, i.e. chokes (properly applied can cause unconciousness in 4-6 seconds), and arm locks. the hazard in those techniques lies in the possibility of second and third or more attackers. very seldom can ANYONE execute a choke or lock to completion in less time than it takes to get his head kicked in. if you have that much control on the ground, best bet is probably to stand back up. furthermore, on the note of judo's "limited" ground techniques, anybody who isn't supplementing his judo with sambo or bjj is obviously not preparing himself for the street. perhaps that is the person this thread is for, but those two arts definately attribute to a weakspot in judo.
tony

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#116626 - 11/19/04 05:20 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree that chokes and throws are effective techniques when in a 1 on 1 situation. Most of us here are martial arts practitioners and would have no problem taking down a lone dude. I am talking about situations where you have multiple opponents. By the way, Tony, you mentioned gross motor skills and choke techniques. Chokes when applied incorrectly can be fatal especially when you have only gross motor skills during an adrelaline rush. Would you want to get into trouble with the law? In my opinion, Judo may be effective, but its grappling techniques must be coupled with strike techniques. First, a strike to the opponent to distract him, them a throw to finish him off.

Benjamin

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#116627 - 11/22/04 07:49 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
Anonymous
Unregistered


benjamin,
that's a really terrific point. to be honest, i've never applied a choke under the "fight or flight" adrenaline rush, but i can see how easy it would be to miscalculate a couple of inches. the rush of a fight against an unknown opponent with no rules where you can't simply tap out if you can't win and where there is no ref to stop it if you get hurt is quite different from the rush of fighting in a tournament. i guess i should just continue to hope that i'm lucky enough not to be in a position to NEED to choke somebody in the street, and if i do, that i can do it from a calm "i'm winning, but this is end-game" position.
tony

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#116628 - 11/26/04 05:54 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
kiwi Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 789
Loc: Wellington New Zealand
Could you please provide information on how chokes are fatal (not in the you hold them till the brain runs out of oxygen or blood sense).

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#116629 - 11/27/04 03:31 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well-said macncheese. I, for one, wouldn't try to use pins and chokes on the streets. A pin is useless as you have to let go after some time. A choke is just the opposite but it is too fatal. Armbars may be useful but only on 1 to 1 situations. I may execute a throw on a thug as many of those punks on the streets wouldn't expect them. However, I would prefer hardening my limbs and using them to fracture.

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#116630 - 11/27/04 05:59 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
Anonymous
Unregistered


if a choke is applied with great force (such as under the influence of adrenaline and fear) INCORRECTLY, i.e. directly across the windpipe or adams apple, it can cause a collapse and suffocation, even after letting go of the choke. i've heard people talk about how they could break somebody's neck with a strong choke, but i think that's mostly bull-pucky. He-man might be able to do it, but i doubt even his little sister she-ra could.
tony

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#116631 - 12/05/04 04:49 PM Re: Is Judo street effective
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Benjamin:
Well-said macncheese. I, for one, wouldn't try to use pins and chokes on the streets. A pin is useless as you have to let go after some time. A choke is just the opposite but it is too fatal. Armbars may be useful but only on 1 to 1 situations. I may execute a throw on a thug as many of those punks on the streets wouldn't expect them. However, I would prefer hardening my limbs and using them to fracture. [/QUOTE]
Worng. Pins are very effective because it is a transitional position which gives you control of the opponent and a variety of options such as:
1. Moving into an armbar
2. Move into a striking position
3. Get up and flee or kick strike
4. hold the person down until help arrives
5. Basically many pins allow you to relatively safely hold your opponent down in a position of control where they are pretty helpless...From there it is your choice as to what you do.

Also, a choke is not "too fatal" although it CAN be if held too long.

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#116632 - 12/11/04 05:40 AM Re: Is Judo street effective
Anonymous
Unregistered


I said again. This is not a 1 on 1 situation.

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#116633 - 05/17/06 02:53 AM Re: Is Judo street effective [Re: UKfightfreak]
hugo Offline
Elvis Sharkey

Registered: 08/03/05
Posts: 134
Loc: I am not going to specify that...
Or you could knee him. Or better yet. When you kick if he tries to block it with the hand you're not controlling it takes his attention off the armbar, you use that time to snap the arm and make an escape.
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#116634 - 05/17/06 03:10 AM Re: Is Judo street effective [Re: VJ]
hugo Offline
Elvis Sharkey

Registered: 08/03/05
Posts: 134
Loc: I am not going to specify that...
Quote:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Judo/JiuJitsu Info:

I agree as disagree with some of your points. Adversely, using tactical street smarts are more important in any given situation.

In regards to boxing, hmmm, so so, it's okay, but, you might not have come across a Muay Thai fighter, which has a combination of punches/elbows/knees and especially there shin.

Regarding Ali, great fighter during his time, his challenge wasn't probably taken seriously. ABC wide world of sports with the karate guy being bashed by the boxers. Karate is so, ummm commercial. It has its advantages but, i don't think it will do too well in street fights. As far as striking goes, Jiu Jitsu applies simple strikes as similiar to karate, open hand, straight punches, but then you have the additional chokes, locks and pins.

So if you really think about it Jiu Jitsu will have all acceptablity to street fight comparison. In today's world the average perp knows how to fight. So in regards to street fighting know what you can do upstairs as you do downstairs. Strengthen not with boxing, but with Muay Thai or just Jiu Jitsu.

Muliple attackers, depending on your experience and YOUR ATTACKERS. Let's think no weapons 2 guys, you've trained so many times, see the situation, divide them by degrees of aggressiveness, then plan the right defense or attack, and execute towards the second attacker. Done it.

3 attackers, as you can tell it becomes a bit harder. weapons or no weapons, as what you said evade and escape, but there are ways to defend against such amount.

4 attachers, whoo, what put you there in the first place.

5 call 911. j/k evade and escape is the smartest answer anyone can give you.

Boxing, I don't think so. Don't get me wrong, just your arms. Please look into UFC, Pride Fighting and or King of the Cage competitions where there were many golden gloves boxers and as well as former champions get seriously messed up.
[/QUOTE]

So should we conclude that boxing needs to be include as part of judo training for the streets? Just asking.


The key part here is in your opinion. Kickboxers have proven their ability to defeat boxers, as have boxers to kickboxers, do not delude yourself into thinking there is an "ultimate art" or that one art will always beat another if they are both on the same porfessional circuit. The key to success is perseverence, skill, mental and physical drive, dedication, and maturity and openess. People allow themselves to be deluded by thinking that one art is better than another or will always beat another. In the end it comes down to who is the better fighter, regardless of style. In a ring fight that is. Unless, however, there are other factors involved.

I'm saying this generally, not in response to this in particular. You just see it so much "a boxer can beat a Kung Fu person" "no but a Taekwondo person can" etc. it's ridiculous. People generalise far too much. Even at black belt level. Take a Judo black belt and a Taekwondo blackbelt, who is to say who is tougher. It is not clearcut. A black belt does not automatically make you both equal simply because you both have it. It is simply an indicator of skill. But... that indicator is taken more lightly at some clubs than others. There are always factors to deal with.

Hugo


Edited by hugo (05/17/06 03:16 AM)
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#116635 - 05/18/06 12:45 AM Re: Is Judo street effective [Re: hugo]
Mr_Heretik Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 1074
Loc: Bronx NY, USA
Wow, revived a thread.

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#116636 - 05/18/06 11:44 AM Re: Is Judo street effective [Re: Mr_Heretik]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida


I looked at the first couple of posts ans thought "where have these guys been?" until I saw the 2002.

The question should have been "Are you Street Effective?" but that is not as much fun as the "could Aquaman beat Jackie Chan?" rhetoric.
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#116637 - 07/11/07 07:44 AM Re: Is Judo street effective [Re: Brewer]
Vlado666 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/11/07
Posts: 6
Dudes,you're so wrong about this.Now,I've been training Judo for 2 years(not a lot of EXP i have) but I know a thing or two and I'd like to share my prospective of the question:
1 opp.:You said that by biting or something like that you would brake a submission(yeah,wright) a submission done brakes your arm for less than 3 sec.A choke chokes you out for up to 10 sec and a throw can even kill you.
2.Multiple opp:You just start one by one with judo throws(of course ground fighting in this situation is stupid,I agree,but first you destroy all but one of your opp with throws,and the last one, your choise(my favourite:brake every single arm and leg of his and choke him out ).So saying that Judo is not good gor street fight is just Dump!

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#116638 - 07/11/07 08:19 AM Re: Is Judo street effective [Re: Vlado666]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Do your opponents queue up and wait nicely whilst you throw them in turn (like in the films)? What happens if they get up again?

B.

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#116639 - 07/11/07 08:27 AM Re: Is Judo street effective [Re: kiwi]
Vlado666 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/11/07
Posts: 6
Quote:

Could you please provide information on how chokes are fatal (not in the you hold them till the brain runs out of oxygen or blood sense).


Well,a proper Choke simply stops the air and the blood and you get daised(I've felt It,for 3 sec I allmost fainted) and If the pressure applied is big,you faint and after you faint If the attacker countiniues the pressure,you can die(no joke)

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#116640 - 07/11/07 08:33 AM Re: Is Judo street effective [Re: JKogas]
Vlado666 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/11/07
Posts: 6
Quote:

VJ-

Eye gouges have also been "proven" INEFFECTIVE. So where does that leave us? Back to the conclusion that such tactics are unreliable.I agree with you,I've been hit In the Groin,and until after The fight,I didn't mind It a lot,and I still beat the crab of my opponent(this can be explained very easily:When your in a Street Fight,you get so angry and focused,that you don't feel the small(and not so small) pains and injuries)


I have been poked in the eye before. Sometimes it's debilitating, other times it hasn't been. That's been my point all along. It certainly wouldn't make me stop fighting and, under certain circumstances, would only make me fight harder.

Groin shots haven't been "proven" either, in much the same way. I've been hit in the groin in a fight. It didn't hurt until after the fight was over.

It only serves to underscore the fact that you cannot rely on fight stoppers to stop fights.

About the only things you can rely on to do this is head trauma and structural damage.


-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 03-29-2004).]



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#116641 - 07/11/07 09:03 AM Re: Is Judo street effective [Re: Brewer]
groundfighter Offline
Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 53
Loc: Petawawa, Ontario, Canada
Quote:

I mean that if a grappler tried to put a arm lock on me the way they were doing it on tv,he would immediately be missing a piece of meat about bite size out of his calf muscle.



I can tell you from experience that the LAST thing on your mind when you are in a submission is trying to bite! It is doing everything you can to stop that arm from breaking. It is a panic situation for the victim of the armbar and even IF he had the presence of mind to completely ignore the fact that his arm is breaking (not likely) a trick of mine is to start kicking him in the face with that leg that has his teeth on it (without loosening my grip or the other leg on his chest) That will make him forget for a second (all you need to *snap*.) Remember that is ONLY if I didn't apply it fast enough to begin with.
You are right though about multiple opponents, however how many of us really feel that we are prepared to fight multiple people anyway?
J
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train how you fight, fight to live.

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#116642 - 07/11/07 09:15 AM Re: Is Judo street effective [Re: Barad]
Vlado666 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/11/07
Posts: 6
Quote:

Do your opponents queue up and wait nicely whilst you throw them in turn (like in the films)? What happens if they get up again?First of all,If the throw is made well(and most judokas have at least 3-4 throws that they do very good,it is going to hurt a lot(If u don't believe me, jummp and fall on a wooden floor)Secound,a judoka allways does a pin/choke/subbmission after the throw.
P.S.DON'T Believe everything you see on movies

B.



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#116643 - 07/11/07 09:17 AM Re: Is Judo street effective [Re: Gargoyle]
groundfighter Offline
Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 53
Loc: Petawawa, Ontario, Canada
I do hate to be picky, but I am dyslexic as well and although I have had major difficulties, one of the common things that most dyslexics share is that we are usually pretty intelligent (according to statistics.) It has no bearing on spelling (especially when your words are spelled the same way every time. You are way too consistant in your spelling for it to be a dyslexia error. You really think that they are spelled that way.) Especially in public forum, don't hurt the rest of us by making us look like uneducated fools. If you can't spell, you can't spell and it isn't dyslexias fault. Don't build stereotype by hiding behind dyslexia because then that is all people expect of us. Show people your martial spirit by overcoming it.
See? No spelling errors.
J
OH, and the ground is my favorite place to go in a fight because EVERYone can throw a punch, not everyone can ground fight. I find that most people are so disoriented by a seasoned groundfighter that they stumble and squirm while throwing panicked and ineffective punches while I commence choking out procedures step 1-10. lol
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#116644 - 07/11/07 09:22 AM Re: Is Judo street effective [Re: Vlado666]
groundfighter Offline
Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 53
Loc: Petawawa, Ontario, Canada
"I still beat the crab of my opponent"
You can actually beat seafood out of your opponents? WOW, THAT is tough!

J
_________________________
train how you fight, fight to live.

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#116645 - 07/11/07 09:35 AM Re: Is Judo street effective [Re: groundfighter]
Vlado666 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/11/07
Posts: 6
Quote:

"I still beat the crab of my opponent"
You can actually beat seafood out of your opponents? WOW, THAT is tough!

J




HAHAHA,very funny(PEDAAAAAL)

edited to fix quote


Edited by MattJ (07/11/07 10:34 AM)

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#116646 - 07/11/07 01:27 PM Re: Is Judo street effective [Re: Vlado666]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
...which brings you back to being hit by one whilst you are pinning/choking the other surely. I think throws and chokes are useful to know and I practice them but I have to say I think a good punch is easier and more reliable if I had to choose. I guess we should all be good at both but i could not see myself relying on judo techniques alone.

B.

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#116647 - 07/12/07 07:18 AM Re: Is Judo street effective [Re: Barad]
Vlado666 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/11/07
Posts: 6
Quote:

...which brings you back to being hit by one whilst you are pinning/choking the other surely. I think throws and chokes are useful to know and I practice them but I have to say I think a good punch is easier and more reliable if I had to choose. I guess we should all be good at both but i could not see myself relying on judo techniques alone.

B.


I agree with that Judo Throws and Chokes and stuff are much better when combined with strikes and kicks,that way you get your opp. stunned,and can perform a Throw much easyer.

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#116648 - 07/13/07 09:25 PM Re: Is Judo street effective [Re: JMurray]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

I'm far from an expert, but I didn't see any mention of the possible grip problem.

A judoka usually depends on getting a good grip on the opponents shirt or jacket in order to have control. In my one experience in a confrontation, I instinctively grabbed the guy's T shirt and it just ripped off as he backed up.

If I have to get in a fight again, I hope it's not in the summer.





If a person was to look at the early ways of training something like osoto gari(its on you tube/ google video) then gripping perhaps wouldnt be to much of a problem in such a scenario.

Judo seemed much more brutal way back then.


Jude

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#116649 - 07/13/07 10:31 PM Re: Is Judo street effective [Re: joesixpack]
winterwarrior Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 19
One must remember that the judo techniques are effective if used within their range, ie, grappling range. But, it is the sport mindset that will get the judoka killed. If you practice a sport long enough you get the rules as an instinct. and sporting rules on the street, with no mat, refs or otherwise is a lethal habit

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#116650 - 07/14/07 02:08 AM Re: Is Judo street effective [Re: groundfighter]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I do hate to be picky




I do too (not), but you responded to a post from 08/04/03 lol.

It was a good thread though, lots of good points.
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