Hello,
I know we all saw the Ultimate Fighting Championships.And the over all out come of most of the fights.Yes, the grapplers really did a good job.Just because the grapplers are the best at what they do doesn't mean that what they do is the best.I mean that if a grappler tried to put a arm lock on me the way they were doing it on tv,he would immediately be missing a piece of meat about bite size out of his calf muscle.And I believe that going to the ground in a street fight is the worst thing that one would want to do.Let's look at another thing.What if the grappler is facing two assailants,if he ties one up and goes to the ground the other one is going to be kicking him up side the head.Now don't get me wrong I Love all the Martial Arts and have trained and practiced in Judo myself.I just think that this is an interesting subject to discuss.
Your Brother in the Arts

I totally agree with you on the two on one situation but, i have trained in ju-jitu/judo now for 5 years and i think it is good to know all ranges.if i am defending myself on the street and i trip over a kirb or any object i need to know how to survive on the ground.peaple make mistakes,even monkeys fall out of trees.it`s always best to stay on your feet but it`s not always that easy.When you consider 85% of fights end up on the ground i feel ground fighting as well as stand up fighting needs to be learned.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brewer:
if a grappler tried to put a arm lock on me the way they were doing it on tv,he would immediately be missing a piece of meat about bite size out of his calf muscle.And I believe that going to the ground in a street fight is the worst thing that one would want to do.

Let's look at another thing.What if the grappler is facing two assailants,if he ties one up and goes to the ground the other one is going to be kicking him up side the head.[/QUOTE]

Two excellent points.

The street fight angle: I don't think a pin would be valid if it left an opening for another attack ie: biting, so pins geared towards a rule based competition might not be the best choice in a street fight.

Multiple opponents: staying aware of your situation is very important and choosing to pin one attacker, with others to contend with, may not be the best choice for the situation. I hate so say it, but in a multiple attacker situation, all but one of my attackers is going to be taken out with extreme prejudice (ie: unable to attack again), until such time as I am able to effectively restrain more than one person at a time. I would prefer to not to, just as I would prefer to discuss the situation over a beer rather than combat, but I don't see any other choice.

From the perspective of a wrestler, I think the ground is a tactically superior position as it eliminates many angles and methods of attack. Many street fights will have time spent on the ground, so I think it's important to understand these techniques...but why get dirty if you don't have to? Even if you don't want to "go there", you might slip on ice, who knows?

Amos Smith

When you consider 85% of fights end up on the ground... >>>>>

We hear various statistics floating around- 85%-95% of fights end up on the ground. We all seem to accept this stat, but does anyone know where it came from, or do we all just believe it because our instructors and other martial artists all say it?

The following is what Peyton Quinn (bouncers guide to barroom brawling) posted to the AOL boards a few years ago (from memory, not verbatim):

The LAPD started keeping stats on how altercations involving officers ended up. Their study showed that (enter stat here: I believe it was 95%) of altercations ended up on the ground. So, there we have our stat. BUT... the thing we need to remember is that police officers were involved. It is there responsibility to apprehend the assailant, so of course they entered into a grappling situation with the intent of taking the person down and cuffing them. If you have watched COPS on tv (my guilty pleasure), you see that most often officers(note the plural) will take the assailant to the ground during an altercation. It is their job to restrain,control, apprehend and arrest.

So, when we hear that statistic, we need to keep in mind it's source and under what circumstances the data was gathered.

Peace

[This message has been edited by kenposan (edited 08-26-2001).]

[This message has been edited by kenposan (edited 08-26-2001).]

When you consider 85% of fights end up on the ground... >>>>>
We hear various statistics floating around- 85%-95% of fights end up on the ground. We all seem to accept this stat, but does anyone know where it came from, or do we all just believe it because our instructors and other martial artists all say it?

Remember that 100% of street fights will start while standing up. My first punch thrown is to distract the guy and get within grapling distance. I want to remain standing on my feet for as long as I can. If I am on the ground, it's harder to run away from that position.

I agree with Mr. Smith, I would not go for an Arm Bar or a Pin in a street fight. But if the opportunity presents itself while on the ground, I think I could snap the elbow before he would think about biting my calf. Even if he did, I walk away with a hole in my leg and you have a bum arm for life.

Just my two cents

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brewer:
Hello,
I know we all saw the Ultimate Fighting Championships.And the over all out come of most of the fights.Yes, the grapplers really did a good job.Just because the grapplers are the best at what they do doesn't mean that what they do is the best.I mean that if a grappler tried to put a arm lock on me the way they were doing it on tv,he would immediately be missing a piece of meat about bite size out of his calf muscle.And I believe that going to the ground in a street fight is the worst thing that one would want to do.Let's look at another thing.What if the grappler is facing two assailants,if he ties one up and goes to the ground the other one is going to be kicking him up side the head.Now don't get me wrong I Love all the Martial Arts and have trained and practiced in Judo myself.I just think that this is an interesting subject to discuss.
Your Brother in the Arts [/QUOTE]

YES!!!!!
My father is a retired Dallas poice officer and a Yodan in Judo and has used many technquies in the line of duty and now teaches them at his dojo. He has told me that most street fights end up on the ground. If the armbar is applied quick enough, there won't be a chance to anything but surrender or continue on with a broken arm or worse.

I find what has been writen agreeable but I have been in many street fights not of my own accord of course but I have used Judo and presure points against my foes in such fights and have been sucsesful. The thing is you must have a good fight presence and get the heck out of the way in time before the enemy can attack. I would defend before they would attack not trying to hurt anyone of course.

Your Friend Chin-Chec

About the best street technique.
I was a boxer.
I went from there to Karate (was beating
blackbelts during 1st bouts I had).
Became a cop studied Judo/ground...
As you know if you have studied the results.
Boxing is the most effective of the striking arts. And 1 on 1 judo or grappling trumps boxing. However when 'anything goes' you need some of it all esp heart and speed. And
above all, when assulted by numbers you better be willing to try and hurt the 1st couple as
much as you are able in the 1st few seconds.
Side kicks to the knee to break it backwards.
Front edge blows to the neck etc.

One on one, esp if you can box, you can afford to be merciful. Any boxer with below average skill can totally nutralize the kick (it is WAY too slow). Pinwheels are a joke (boxers jump rope for hours). You give a boxer a leg and he will take it, (and knock you out.)
In the early 70s, 1st ABC wide world of sports, then Karate Illustrated each put on bouts between top name karatekas and no-name club boxers.
Both bouts had to be stopped by the 3rd to save the karateka's from brain damage.
Ali challenged all the top marshall arts guys. No takers. Pro karate started requiring 8 kicks per round because boxers were taking over, now all the top guys have pro boxing trainers.
So you want the best all round system;
Lots of boxing, lots of Judo/grappling+
a bit of jui-jitsu for pain/compliance and karate concentrating
on kicks from the knee down - above the waist kicks are foolish outside the ring.
And not that smart inside it either.
Remember the violence you see on TV is neither real nor realistic.
Also if confronted by numbers;
most importantly look for any opportunity to escape and evade
I am not being cute, I am serious.

I agree. Western boxing or something like Thai Boxing (great kicks and elbow strikes) can't be beat if you need to pound someone. I haven't been in many altercations, but my judo skills served me well (and the simple stuff worked best- ogoshi, ippon seoi nage, osotogari, and the naked choke). I've always thought of brazilian jujitsu as judo without the rules.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mitch77:
One on one, esp if you can box, you can afford to be merciful. Any boxer with below average skill can totally nutralize the kick (it is WAY too slow). Pinwheels are a joke (boxers jump rope for hours). You give a boxer a leg and he will take it, (and knock you out.)

Ali challenged all the top marshall arts guys. No takers. Pro karate started requiring 8 kicks per round because boxers were taking over, now all the top guys have pro boxing trainers.
[/QUOTE]

I agree that fancy technique does nothing if it does nothing. But, I think the fighters knew Ali was an all round great fighter, regardless of style. Something more to do with pride if they lost, which was highly probable. Would Oscar de la Hoya walk into a Muay Thai world championship fight? Would the belt holder necessarily be suffering brain damage in the 4th round? Kicks are to slow? Then why are they used in full contact situations where they are allowed? If a kick has more range, how is it slower? There is no closing the gap.