[QUOTE]Originally posted by FooChow Crane:
Hi all,
Just want to share these:-
• In my part of the world, S E Asia, there is this general White Crane family tree chart that we use. In this chart, you will find Ng Mui Shi Tai (a nun) listed as a 4th generation descendant of Fang Chi Niang – the founder of White Crane. Yim Wing Chun is recorded as a student of Ng Mui Shi Tai. Yim subsequently brought her kung Fu to Fushan and there it proliferated among the Cantonese. Her Kung Fu was renamed “Wing Chun” in her honor.
[/QUOTE]
Just to add to this to provide further depth to the discussion -
Fang Qi Niang learned her boxing from Chen Jin Nan and Fang Qiang Guang. Chen Jin Nan was a general from the late Ming dynasty.
Fang Qi Niang's surname is originally "Chu". She was a daughter of the last Ming Emperor. She would have been called "Chu Gu Niang" (Princess Chu). Because Chen Jin Nan ordered Fang Qiang Guang to protect her, she adopted the name "Fang". Because the Fujian speak a different dialect, "Chu" is pronounced like "Qi", so she became known as "Fang Qi (Chu) Niang" The "Gu" dropped since she is out of the palace.
Regarding Ng Mui, there is debate as to whether or not it's a code/given name vs. the actual name of the person. Fujian White Crane (from my understanding) has a term that echos the Ng Mui's identity to relate to Fujian White Crane. The term says Sam (three) Dim (points) Ng (five) Miu (plum) Fa (flower)or Three points five plum flower.
Yim is also thought not to be an actual name, but rather an alternate name for an actual person, possibly hailing from Weng Chun village or weng chun hall (two seperate, actual places). The term wing chun itself is believed by some to be a shortened version of "Wing Yun Chi Jee; Mo mong Hon juk; Dai dei wui chun", which translates as "Always speak with determination; Don't forget the Han nation; Again will return Spring."
Regarding the link to "Ng Mui", some branches record Ng Mui's actual student being a Miu Shun (Miao Shun). Miu Shun was said to have been from Guangxi province. More on Miu Shun below.
[QUOTE]
• If you look into Southern Kung Fu systems, only Wing chun and White Crane share the vertical punching method albeit in White Crane, the vertical punch is done with the phoenix eye.[/QUOTE]
Some wing chun linneages use the phoenix eye as well.
[QUOTE]
• Like I described when I started this thread, there is another stream of Wing Chun that is found primarily in SE Asia wherein there is only one long form instead of 3. This form appears to be all the 3 forms done in one go. I am a White Crane teacher and I got to tell you that this particular form reminds me of White Crane.[/QUOTE]
That would be Cho Ga Wing Chun Kuen. Cho Ga comes from Yik Kam who left the red boat and eventually taught the Cho family in Panyu, Guangdong. Eventually a member of the Cho family, Chon On, left for Penang, Malaysia and taught it there.
Their single long form is called Siu Lien Tao (Little First Training).
The story that Cho Ga teaches (with thanks to Hendrik Santo), which is also common in the Yuen Kay Say/Sum Nung Wing Chun Kuen system, states that "Ng Mui" left the Bak Hok Jee (White Crane Temple) in Sichuan's Emei mountains to wonder the countryside. Eventually, she ventured to Guangxi where she taught her newly created Bak Hok Kuen (White Crane Boxing) to Miu Shun. Miu Shun mixed the style with his own techniques, distilling and unifying from both a highly effective martial. Miu Shun later passed along the newly created art to his disciple Yim Yee.
In the Cho family version, Miu Shun combined Ng Mui's White Crane Boxing with Emei Sup Yee Jong (Twelve Posts) to create Siu Lien Tao (Little First Training). His role in the creation myths blending the established Fukien White Crane Weng Chun Kuen with his own Sichuan system (perhaps Twelve Posts) provides an interesting explination on how the Wing Chun Kuen system developed as it did.
Certainly though, Wing Chun is tied to Fukien Bak Hok Weng Chun.
By the way, regarding your previous statement :
[QUOTE]
Both Wing Chun & Eng Choon means "Always Spring". Seen his form and appears very White Crane.[/QUOTE]
Actually, that's not quite true - that depends on what characters are being used. While the characters for weng and wing are pronounced the same, they differ in meaning. For english romanization we use Weng and Wing to differentiate between the two seperate characters, even though they are pronounced the same. The character (which we use the english romanization weng for) does indeed refer to Always. The character (which we use the english romanization wing for) however means "to praise".
Here's a good article on the differences -
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/why/columns/ritchie/pages01_gettingstarted.html The problem has been that the two characters have been freely swapped over the years by people in the wing chun family.
Hope this helps some of your questions.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by martin watts:
- My feeling , and that of some other crane players I know in asia, is that Wing Chun is yong Chun White Crane developed in a special direction.[/QUOTE]
Martin, hopefully my aboved post helped lend credence to your feeling and sheds some light on to the how's.
I'd be interested in further dialog with you and FooChow regarding the links between the two. There's a lot of research going on with it in our (wing chun) side of the fence too and it's always nice to crossreference and share.