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#114771 - 03/08/05 03:14 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by judokater:
I think that the samurai is the better swordsman, cuz ninja's jused steath an decepion as there main weapon.
ninja's didn's get in to fights verry often(they spreaded some powder in there opponent's face and flet).


[This message has been edited by judokater (edited 02-15-2005).]
[/QUOTE]

Having said that, ninja train with samuri weapons, for they must be profficient with all weapons they must encounter. I am on the side of the ninja (i have to be, i study ninjitsu)

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#114772 - 03/08/05 08:52 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
What system of ninjutsu do you study?

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#114773 - 03/09/05 07:30 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


cxt,posted 03-08-2005 11:34 AM
"...Was not suggesting that it was automatic...
Not really an "either/or" question. Since at least some were "both" samurai AND ninja."

In this I agree absolutely.

I posted all my answers after I`d reduced the question (to "only Samurai" vs "only Ninja"), because otherwise I could not have posted an answer. As you said: there`s no answer to a question like who is better in a fight between a Samurai-Ninja vs a Samurai-Ninja.
.
.

I can`t actually tell anybody of you who`s the better swordsman - but maybe there`s one more thing we could think about:
Both, Ninja and Samurai were trained in weaponry with many different weapons. Depending on time and circumstances some Samurai-Ryuha were specialising on different weapons - not always the sword.
Examples:

-Kajima, Hioki, Soken = archery
(The bow was used as main weapon before use
of the sword became common)

-Juki, Shibukawa, Yoshin = close combat

-Araki, Isshin, Toda = chained weapons


Another thing is:
If a Ninja had to perform a "normal" fight against a Samurai who was well trained in using his Katana - whose style of fighting was probably more known to the public?
As I see it, at least to a certain degree the Ninja would know how a Katana was normally used by a Samurai.
The Samurai saw a person with a sword -maybe with a different kind- not knowing how such a sword would be used against himself (at least by a Ninja).
We are often told (can only speak for myself), we should not do boxing with a boxer, grapple with a judoka or a ringer... .
I think a Ninja would try to use the sword in a way very different way from what the Samurai would expect him to.
Sun Tsu (Sun Tsi...) wrote that if one knows his enemy and himself, in hundred battles/fights he will never loose.

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#114774 - 03/09/05 07:58 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
What makes you think the techniques of the Samurai were common knowledge? They aren't common knowledge now and todays society is a lot more open than things used to be. Lives aren't on the line anymore.

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#114775 - 03/09/05 01:00 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


(to Charles Mahan, who posted 03-09-2005 08:58 AM)

A Samurai can`t do swordfencing on battlefield or on other occasions and expect that absolutely nothing of his style is revealed.
That`s why I wrote "to a certain degree".

Nevertheless even in older times it was possible to train in different Dojo - if one was allowed to.
There were a lot of Samurai exploring the japanese islands for one reason or another, and if one knew or got to know someone who trained at a certain Dojo it could be that he was allowed to take lessons there,too. How far he was then involved into the techniques and secrets of this Ryu was depending on whom he knew, how trustworthy he himself seemed to be etc.

Sometimes Dojo had an interest on exchanging thoughts and techniques with such individuals, because these warriors were often very skilled persons.Many Ryu vanished because they were to fixed on their own style and denying everything else there was - maybe the best student in such a dojo could beat everyone in his own dojo but was relatively easily beaten by a Samurai on his Musha-Shugyo (a pilgrimage often performed to get religious insight and to become an even more highly skilled Warrior).

Furthermore even within a single Ryu its secrets (the Menkyo Kaiden) were transmitted only to very few people, who kept the monopoly of these secrets.
In the preface of the "Heiho Kadensho" (consists of 3 volumes) Yagyu Munenori writes:

"The contents of these 3 volumes must not be released outside this family;however,this does not mean that our way has to be completely concealed. ..."

The term family is not as fixed as we would see it today, it includes all pupils for example.
There were normally 3 different levels of secrets in the Ryu, expressed by the term of Shuhari (chinese characters):

1.Kirikami - basis, like for example postures and the preparation of the mind
(shu = to keep, observe)

2.Mokuroku - depending on a certain insight of the pupil
(ha = to break)

3.Menkyo Kaiden - highest level, sometimes followed by forming one`s own Ryu
(ri = to depart)

Many of the higher level secrets were more of an esoteric or philosophical nature than just weaponry.
At the shogun`s court tournaments were held between different ryu - a good chance to study the swordmanship of the samurai.

(this passage has nothing to do with what you wrote: )
Someone who has been given Menkyo Kaiden didn`t have to become the next generation Soke (grandmaster) of the Ryu. Such a person was simply officially acknowledged to know everything about the Ryu´s secrets and could for example build up a new branch of the Ryu. Therefore if names are still kept very similar, we often wonder why apparently there are sometimes more Soke of the same Ryu at same time in existence, while in reality they are Soke of related but nevertheless different Ryu.





[This message has been edited by Wilf (edited 03-09-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Wilf (edited 03-09-2005).]

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#114776 - 03/09/05 01:12 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
Wilf

But then how can we be sure that the "ninja" tech were not known as well?

Possible that the samurai has faced "ninja" before?

We know that some of the same clans tha suffered the most at the hands of Tokagawa, also had members that supported hin to the fullest.

Plus given that "ninjutsu" is also an art with many, many skills involved.

Not really possible that a ninja could be an expert in them all, there has to SOMETHING that he/she would be less skilled at.

Still think its "tail chaser" of a question.

Suppose its fun to kick around, but there are WAY to many "what if's" to answer.

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#114777 - 03/09/05 01:35 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


mmmmh Charles Mahan.... cxt....
I think laf7773 is still missing.

Okay to be serious again:
"...But then how can we be sure that the "ninja" tech were not known as well?..."
I think that we really can´t be sure of that.

"...Not really possible that a ninja could be an expert in them all, there has to SOMETHING that he/she would be less skilled at. ..."
I totally agree, but it`s the same with the Samurai.

"...Still think its "tail chaser" of a question. ..."
Sorry for my poor english, if I got you right, this is a complaint that I don`t really answer the question and as I mentioned a little earlier (posted 03-09-2005 08:30 AM) I just didn`t because I can`t.

Though I can`t answer the question, I just wanted to show possible reasons why the Ninja even in a sword vs sword combat wouldn`t have to be the looser right from the start.
If I got you right in another point to, I agree with you - the question of who`s the better swordsman lacks itself.

[This message has been edited by Wilf (edited 03-09-2005).]

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#114778 - 03/09/05 11:10 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
I wasn't aware i was missing. I've know where i was all day.

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#114779 - 03/10/05 08:09 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
Wilf

NO, I have NO "complaint" about you or any or any of your posts.

They seem well informed and detailed.

My ire is directed towrad the orignal question/poster.

A "tail chase" question is one that by its very nature CAN'T be answered.

Either because the question is inherently contradictory or there are an impossible number of varibles to account for.

So folks end up going "around and around and around" like a dog chasing his tail on it.

Again, no problem with you at all!!!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 03-10-2005).]

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#114780 - 03/10/05 10:42 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


cxt

I just didn`t get you right. The posting was entitled "Wilf" and so I didn`t see that your last sentence wasn`t meant for me.

(about my posting of "mmmmh Charles Mahan.... cxt.... I think laf7773 is still missing. ..." : )
This shows a certain kind of respect for your persons. As I could see, the 3 of you are often doing postings here and there and correcting some really "strange" thoughts and discussions. Therefore I wondered when laf 3337 would add again a few sentences to this thread.

Oh, I forgot something: When I have to get to close into the details, I do look in my books,too.
I just think that it`s important not to believe everything (sometimes even if it`s the thing most often repeated) and to judge very well what could be right and what absolutely can`t be.
Someday a person asked if "we" could really jump up right from the ground up onto a height of 5-6 meters -really strange such thoughts, aren`t they?
How to judge if a book is good is not always that easy because even within (all in all) well worked out books there are often some misleading or just false "truths" written. It`s like with the 3 guys that I mentioned above: they differ to a certain degree in what they might think and know -depending on their own history and the sources they could use themselves. Nevertheless one can still say that all in all they won`t tell you things that you know aren`t true just before they even have spoken them out aloud.

Thanks to everyone for reading and listening to an relatively unexperienced person,
Greetings Wilf

[This message has been edited by Wilf (edited 03-10-2005).]

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