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#114721 - 02/20/05 11:37 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
walltiger,

They said the "ninja tabi" have a split toe design to help with climbing trees. That alone should tell you they don't know what they are talking about. Tabi were not specifically for the "ninja" and the split toe design was because they were worn with zori or geta and had nothing to do with climbing trees. That site is full of misinformation and sites like that is part of the reason there is so much misunderstanding about ninjutsu.

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#114722 - 02/21/05 05:37 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


laf

that is a good call, i overlooked that. i know that tabi were worn commonly by most.

i do have a question though

were tabi as boots used commonly also (i am gen uinly not sure about this) and also were tabi with tougher soles only introduced after the said "boom"? .

cheers.

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#114723 - 02/21/05 06:19 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


this is the original topic

who is the better SWORDSMAN, ninja or samurai.
------------------------------------------------
samurai
the samurai is a SWORDSMAN, he has perfected the art over the last millenium.
------------------------------------------------
ninja
a ninja is an ASSASSIN, he kills by whatever means he can to get the job done.
------------------------------------------------

a samurai would obvously spend alot more time training with a sword.

a ninja would obviously use many things for his training.

a samurai is a class of people, BORN that way (and im sure there are ways that one can "come" into the samurai class. the majority of the time it was a family tradition to train and therefore the said bushi would have trained since he was a small child.

some factions claim that the ninja were also a family oriented class (in a way) so therefore the young ninja probably trained alot of his life with many things.

a samurai follows a code, but WILL AND CAN KILL if he is threatened, and even though he follows a code im sure that in most cases a sense of self preservation would dictate that he would do that at almost all costs.

a ninja follows his own code and has no "remorse" just a flat out killer, but since alot of his time would be taken with learning poisons, learning archery, learning healing, learning to climb, learning to do so many things, his knowledge of the sword would be diminished generalistically unless he possessed real natural ability.

so who is the better SWORDSMAN?

a samurai is the better SWORDSMAN. for the obvious reasons (in general).

who is the better KILLER?

a ninja is the better killer because he is trained to be a KILLER not a soldier.
he kills with poison, with arrows, with swords, with kama, with ANYTHING that gets the job done. but not nessisarily with the sword.

a samurai "lives by the blade (and hopefully) dies by the blade" if he has anything to say about it.

so, generalistically the SAMURAI would seem to be the logical choice for the better SWORDSMAN because the samurai IS a SWORDSMAN. not a jack of all trades ASSASSIN.

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#114724 - 02/21/05 06:40 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


ahhh the fine art of endless conversation [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#114725 - 02/21/05 07:47 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
Wall

Hate to break it to you pal, you could not be more wrong.

As mentioned MANY times. Many samurai were also practicing ninja.

So what your asking is who would be a better swordsman?

A samurai or a samurai?

Now do you see why the question is bollocks

Even a casual read of Japanese history will show that samurai pretty much did whatever was needed to kill a foe.
The history is full of examples of lies, treachery and murder.

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 02-21-2005).]

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#114726 - 02/21/05 07:53 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


so you think that there were no assassins? . .

i dont care if some of them were samurai, the fact still remains that if someone focuses on ALOT of arts rather than one then it is the person who focuses on the ONE art that will be better at that said art.

there were assassins, today they are refered to as ninja (even if they were/werenot back then) they EXISTED, simple as that.

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#114727 - 02/21/05 07:56 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Again Walltiger you are just wrong. Do some research into Sogo Bujutsu arts. Most Samurai trained in a wide variety of weapons. It was not all sword all the time. The primary battlefield weapons of the Samurai were the Yari and the Yumi. The sword was a sidearm used only if the Samurai lost his primary weapons in combat or was attacked when not actively engaged in combat, ie walking around the city streets and getting attacked by brigands. The Samurai weren't soldiers so much as they were Nobles who happened to spend a lot of time training for war, or at least small scale conflicts.

As for the Ninja, if they ever existed at all as a seperate entity from the regular Samurai class, I don't truly care to speculate. There is way to much bogus information floating around. It's impossible to get at the truth of any matter that touches on the subject.

You're posts would be a lot easier to take if you'd just choose your language a little more carefully, and stop trying to come off as if you know everything when clearly you do not. Neither do I. You don't have to claim to know everything or post definitively all the time in order for people to take your seriously.

[This message has been edited by Charles Mahan (edited 02-21-2005).]

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#114728 - 02/21/05 08:09 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


i was not trying to come off as if i know everything in the post about samurai VS ninja. i was just stating my OPINION on who i think would be the better swordsman, i know that they also used a few other weapons on the battle field, but they trained extensivly every day with a sword and thats why we have kendo iaido etc, they probably even had arts for naginata(spelling?) etc also but never became popular today like the sword arts have. an assassin (i will refer to them as ninja for the moment just for ease of use) would have to master and did master ALOT of things including poisons/healing/darts/weapons/climbing/evading/espionage/etc etc etc etc etc. so even if there was no such thing or whatever the fact remains that someone that spent alot of time training in one thing would be better than someone who trained in that thing but also trained in MANY others taking focus off the main art in question. its not that i know everything, in your eyes i may be wrong (as are most other people in your eyes) but in MY opinion, for the question of who is a better swordsman, i beleive that someone who studies a sword extensivly and daily would be a better swordsman that someone who studied a myriad of things on a daily basis.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#114729 - 02/21/05 08:48 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
Wall

Then you STILL asking who is a better swordsmen a samurai or a samurai?

Nonsense question.

And actually naginata IS a pretty popular art in japan, they have competitons just like kendo, and use simlar "weapons."

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#114730 - 02/21/05 08:50 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
The samurai spent just as much time training in various other arts including sword arts. It wasn't all sword training for them and i'd venture to say it wasn't even the majority. Just like any military they wouldn't spend the majority of their time training any one weapon. People associate the samurai with the katana because that's how the movies paint them. As has been pointed out the katana was a side arm and not a primary weapon of battle. Also the samurai's "code" is believed to have not existed until peaceful times. The code of bushido was brought about in an attempt to give the samurai a purpose in a time when they really weren't needed anymore, a way for them to try and maintain their status. Prior to that they pretty much did as they pleased.

As for the tabi, i don't think the thick soled tabi was a result of the ninja boom. There are workers in Japan that wear them as a kind of work boot even today. The tabi boots with the thick rubber sole was a product of the ninja boom. But originally there was just a tabi sock and a tabi "boot" with a thicker, stronger material and were used by dancers and theater artists to protect their feet since zori were not worn indoor during performances.

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