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#114701 - 02/19/05 04:21 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


ok here goes. this is the information which i have always thought to be true, both from instructors and from books, below i will quote a few passages from a book i have just to give you an example. please clarify this for me if you beleive me to be wrong.

page 210 from "the history and philosophy of kendo"

kendoka (kendo students) would also work with a bokken (bambo sword) and the katana (practise sword)

also a quote from the same page again

it is interesting to note that for the greater part of japanese history, kendo and/or kenjutsu were practised almost exclusivly by the BUSHI, known more commonly TODAY as the samurai.

and from the chapter on iaido

iaido derives from the ancient way of the samurai warrior (bushi), and the forerunner of the art we know today, IAI-JUTSU, was used in ernest on the battlefield, whereas iaido was designed to practise "the way of the sword".
evildence suggests that the bokken used today in the novice training of iaido has been used as a weapon since about AD400. the curved swords seen today are not the original japanese swords. indeed they were flat, strait swords of primitive construction,used for simple strikes and thrusts. it was around AD940, the middle of the heian period, that the single edged, slightly curved sword appeared and the supurb skill or the japanese warrior developed. until that time single handed swords were used in battle by mounted soldiers, using the right hand to draw and cut the enemy.
sometime after the 16th century, battle strategy changed and mounted warriors replaced foot warriors who had worn light armor and used techniques requiring both hands on the hilt.

in training a samurai (bushi) would use a bokken(woooden sword) or a katana (practise sword) to minimise injury when not in battle.
during times of battle they would employ the use of a sharp shinken (to) of great craftsmanship, able to cut a man down in a single blow with an experienced hand.

this is a quote from fay goodmans book
"the history and philosophy of kendo"

fay goodman : a leading exponent of shinto-ryu (8th dan) and winner of the gold medal in the 1995 european championships. once of the most respected and highest graded female martial artists in the world.

she had collaberation in this book by
trevor jones : 6th dan iaido, 4th dan kendo, and has represented GB in both european and world champoinships.

and

hiroshi sugawara
5th dan kendo, studied in miyagi prefecture japan for 20 years, and hokkaido japan for 10 years.

i hope this is enough information for you.

Top
#114702 - 02/19/05 04:52 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]by the way, incase you do not do the research a shinken and iaito are the two words traditionally used for a samurai sword, and if you do the research you will find that the word samurai is also incorect. these are the words that are common/popular today. [/QUOTE]

Mr Mahan, can you please tell us what a shinken and an iaito are?

The books Walltiger quotes seem to conflict common learning.

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#114703 - 02/19/05 04:57 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


to me a shinken is a sharp "live" sword and an iaito is a lesser grade sword that is not usually sharp.

by traditional i ment by the schools,

i beleive the actual traditional word for a sword was "to" lol.

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#114704 - 02/19/05 05:13 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Shinken is live but newly made, I believe since WW2. Why would a samurai use a blunt blade?

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#114705 - 02/19/05 05:17 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


training as i have mentioned above. an overlord would not want dead soldiers in their ranks, lmao

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#114706 - 02/19/05 05:23 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


the word shinken actually translates as "real sword"

but yes iwould agree that terminology today would dictate shinken to mean a newly made live sword.

Top
#114707 - 02/19/05 10:00 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


the ninja would win the match, since the samurai are loyal to their believe in honour, ruels and kodexes on a battle field, the ninja would use on of his many weapons, regardless of honour, to out-smarten the samurai and then kill him.

Top
#114708 - 02/19/05 11:12 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Walltiger,

Your claim was that the "ninja-to" was used by ninjutsu practitioners and existed in history. The ninja-to is a straight blade, square tsuba sword with black fittings. This sword did not exist prior to the ninja boom of the 80's. Go back and read my previous post about the ninja-to. The site i referred you to did NOT "substanciate" your claims, you just changed your stance. Either you don't know what a ninja-to is or your changing your story.

Now for your iaito/shinken comments. Basically you read a couple of books, misunderstood them and your not stating your misunderstandings here as fact and claiming we need to do more research? If your instructors are telling you this you need to find new instructors. We've already established one of your instructors was a fraud and didn't know anything about ninjutsu. You never did say who was teaching you iaido and kendo.

Top
#114709 - 02/19/05 02:16 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree with liam .A ninja would not come in direct combat, as said before a ninja was an assassin, and therefore has no need for direct combat.
and if they were forced in to combat they would do anything to get out alive.
as for how is an better swordsmen, I would still say a Samurai (sorry for not using the correct term for samurai), because a they train more with swords then the ninja's do (in a fair situation)(and I am talking about two men that are at the same level in there own art)

ps, if you disagree, let me know by telling what is incorrect , and how it should be.

Top
#114710 - 02/19/05 06:33 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by walltiger:
the word shinken actually translates as "real sword.[/QUOTE]

Shin - new.

Ken - sword.

Thus, shinken - new sword.

Top
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