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#114711 - 02/19/05 06:55 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?

laf, i do not claim that ninja used a ninja-to, i claimed that they used shinobigatana (usually short katana with black fittings) and as i stated before, there was little if no differece in any of the swords, length straiteness or curvedness was the preference of the person that the sword was being made for and also the person making the sword, the style of the swordmaker, and even another determining factor of straitness or curvedness is the types and ratios of steel used as well as how many lamination layers was used to make the sword.

#114712 - 02/19/05 07:43 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Since I was asked I'll provide the answers as I understand them.

There is an arcticle at Richard Stein's site concerning Shinken.

I think it makes it pretty clear walltiger has his facts a little mixed up.

During the post WWII occupation all sword production was stopped. It was seen as a symbol of imperial power and agression and the priority at the time was to prevent uprisings. Eventually the Japanese government began to allow smiths to resume their work, although with considerable limitations.

As the sword arts flourished and the number of students swelled the remaining smiths found themselves incapable of keeping up with demand under the governmental regulations. As a result a way around the restrictions was sought and found. The regulations governed swords made of steel, but not swords made of non-ferrous alloys. I believe Meirin was the first company to put out what was referred to at first as a mogito, and later as an iaito. They were non-sharpened and ideal for beginning students. The government did not have a problem with them as they did not violate the regulations. Eventually they became known as Iaito, because they were used primarily by practitioners of Iaido.

So contrary to Walltigers assertions, Iaito is hardly a traditional word for a katana. There are a number of other problems with his assertions. I'll use a different post.

#114713 - 02/19/05 08:13 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by walltiger:
page 210 from "the history and philosophy of kendo"

kendoka (kendo students) would also work with a bokken (bambo sword) and the katana (practise sword)

I supsect you added the information in those quotes above concerning the translations of bokken and katana. Here's why I say that. That's a pretty standard bokken. Note it's not made out of bamboo.

The bamboo swords that the kendo students use is called a shinai. Here's an example

Now kendo students do occasionally use bokuto, and when the practice iai they do use katana, so it's possible the book said something to that affect.

also a quote from the same page again

it is interesting to note that for the greater part of japanese history, kendo and/or kenjutsu were practised almost exclusivly by the BUSHI, known more commonly TODAY as the samurai.

You've made a mistake in your reading comprehension here. Just because Bushi are more commonly known today as Samurai does not mean that refering to Bushi as Samurai is incorrect. The statement that you quoted above is not proof of your assertion that Samurai is an incorrect term.

and from the chapter on iaido

<snip a bunch of stuff that didn't seem relevant to the topics at hand>

in training a samurai (bushi) would use a bokken(woooden sword) or a katana (practise sword) to minimise injury when not in battle.
during times of battle they would employ the use of a sharp shinken (to) of great craftsmanship, able to cut a man down in a single blow with an experienced hand.


Ok so now you're saying that a bokken is a wooden sword. Again I suspect you added the bit about the katana being a practice sword. Now this use of the term shinken seems wholy inappropriate. I'm not saying it isn't in the book, but seems like a strange use of the term. Frequently the term shinken is used by iaido practitioners to differentiate a live/sharp sword from a dull training sword. It isn't really appropriate taken in this context, but it could be argued that I'm just mincing words here.

I found more information about Fay Goodman at her dojo's website

She apparently trained with Haruna-sensei. She seems quite legitimate as far as I can tell. Note that I'm not really taking issue with much of anything that you actually quoted out of the book. Just your interpretation of it.

[This message has been edited by Charles Mahan (edited 02-19-2005).]

#114714 - 02/19/05 08:23 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?

i just typed in the text from the book as it was, im not even TRYING to explain it in any way with my own words - it was as it was brackets included.

and my statement on samurai was that the term samurai is also incorect for the warriors of the time. samurai translates as SERVANT, and bushi translates as WARRIOR. it is obvoius to me that someone who follows bushido (way of the warrior) would be a bushi (warrior) not a SERVANT following the way of the warroir, it is also obvoious to me that the word servant come from the fact that the said warrior SERVED the lord in question. i doubt he would think of HIMSELF as a servant and would be more likely to think of himself as a warrior that follows the way of the warrior. it is clear to me that this term samurai was put in place by the lords and not my the warriors themselves, thats why i said that the term was incorrect. perhaps i should have been clearer in my explination and thoughts.

#114715 - 02/19/05 08:46 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Whether it is obvious to you or not, you're still wrong. Samurai was a class in the Japanese feudal system. Bushi were usually but not always Samurai. You really are not exhibitting a very clear understanding of Samurai or Bushido.

The two terms are not interchangable, but they are not mutually exclusive either. Do some more research.

And yes the Samurai were generally very subservient to their lords to the point of committing ritual suicide when so ordered.

[This message has been edited by Charles Mahan (edited 02-19-2005).]

#114716 - 02/19/05 10:53 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4065
Loc: Limbo
This was your first statement about the ninja-to.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Walltiger:the "shinobigatana" or the now so called ninja-to was an inferior weapon most of the time because of the poorer practices used in its construction.[/QUOTE]

This is what i responded with.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by laf7773:One more time for the cheap seats, the ninja-to was not a historical sword.[QUOTE]

Then you responded with this statement.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Walltiger:thats funny, a ninja-to as a tool for alot of things is well documented even by the schools themselves.[/QUOTE]

Since finding out you have no legitimate ninjutsu training and i referenced you to a site noted for their expertise in Japanese swords you now are changing your story. You never said anything about a ninja-to being curved, you simply called it a "ninja-to" and as we all know what is now called a ninja-to and that it is not a sword found in Japanese history you are trying to fish your way out.

You really do need to do more research before you start stating things as fact. You are way off on a lot of things.

#114717 - 02/20/05 04:59 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?

as i have said, i was using the term ninja-to loosly.

they state there pretty much what ive already said here. and i know for a fact that there have been strait/semi strait/ slightly curved/heavily curved swords because i have seen them for myself as i have said in museums and in private collections.

anyways the topic is "who is the better swordsman" and i say to that "whoever gets the killing blow in FIRST on the day" . .

lol [IMG][/IMG]

#114718 - 02/20/05 06:05 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4065
Loc: Limbo
I'm sorry but that sight is hardly accurate. It looks like it was written by a teen-ager that read a couple of Hatsumi books and saw WAY too many movies. I would hardly take their word on anything. It looks like more of a gross mix of Frank Dux lies with some subtle truths scattered about. There are two things in that sight that should set off some alarms that they don't know what they are talking about. The first isn't such a big deal but anyone practicing "real" ninjutsu knows the correct romanization is ninjUtsu and not ninjItsu. The majority of the ninja fakes will use the spelling ninjitsu as a way of separating themselves from legit schools because they usually can't provide any type of lineage or history. The second is that the nunchaku was not a weapon used in ninjutsu. This was another one started by the movie industry and the large number of frauds that converted their karate/tae kwon do schools into ninja schools in the 80's. That site is far from accurate, on any level.

#114719 - 02/20/05 07:25 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
A perfect example of the kind of misinformation spread I've been talking about recently.

#114720 - 02/20/05 08:11 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?

i do not think so, as they quite blatantly explain what they beleive to be myths and lies about the art in the first place

quote 1
What makes a Ninja special ?
What makes a Ninja formidable is that they have to learn
"Taijutsu" (hand to hand combat) which incorporates "Bugei Juhappan" (18 Samurai
and "Ninjutsu Juhakkei" (18 Ninjutsu Arts).
The "Bugei Juhappan" arts ranges from "Art of self defense" to "Art of throwing
The "Ninjutsu Juhakkei" arts ranges from "Art of spiritual refinement" to "Art of
special disappearing".
"Art of special disappearing" (Inton-jutsu) is the ability to trick the enemies senses.. !
Ninja needs not only to learn these arts but also to master them

quote 2
Many movies that portray the Historical Ninja as a member of a mystical magical warrior family. The
ninja in the movies cast magic spells, project their images, become invisible, fly through the air or even
run across water. These inaccuracies are not particularly damaging to the legendary image of the ninja.
They even add to the mystery and popularity of ninjutsu. The ninja seems to overlook all concepts of
right and wrong and and all morality in order to achieve his self serving goals.
None of these concepts are even close to describing the real ninja.
More than eight hundred years of history stretch back to the founder of the system of ninjutu, Daisuke
Nishina of Togakure Village. After defeat at the hands of Heike troops, Daisuke escaped from his place
of birth in Nagano and moved to the remote region of Iga. He changed his name to Daisuke Togakure
and later was credited with founding the Togakure ryu of ninjutsu.

is there ANYTHING in those 2 quotes that differentiates about your views you have stated, because they are on the first page, and also after researching alot of the other togakure aiki and taijutsu sites, they have also got alot of the other information right. as i said, i beleive what ive SEEN and thats that, i will not bother with this particular line of thought again.

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