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#114671 - 02/13/05 01:03 PM Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Dear fellow swordsmens, is a ninja or a samurai a better swordsmen?

Top
#114672 - 02/13/05 05:21 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Search the archive. This particular useless question has been asked entirely too many times already.

Top
#114673 - 02/14/05 10:46 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Let me elaborate on Charles' statement. The "ninja" as known in popular culture didn't exist, so your question is mood at the get-go. However, your question has some other problems.

With both ninja and samurai, you had those who were blademasters, as well as many who never entered combat. This question is so general that it is impossible to answer conclusively, like those endless rapier-vs-katana arguments.

If you meant on a whole, here's how you find out: hire fifty kenjitsu swordsmen, and pit them one on one against real ninjitsu students (good luck finding real ones; many don't even call their art ninjistu anymore due to the Mcdojos). Then, come back and tell us how the tournament went.

[This message has been edited by Benjamin1986 (edited 02-14-2005).]

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#114674 - 02/14/05 12:01 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Assassain

Ah, some "ninja" WERE "samurai."

Oh, and anyone who asks a question like this.

Please, please, pretty please, don't refer to me as a "fellow swordsmen."

Someone I know may be reading this.

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#114675 - 02/14/05 08:40 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Assassin750:
Dear fellow swordsmens, is a ninja or a samurai a better swordsmen?[/QUOTE]

You're a "swordsman"?

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#114676 - 02/15/05 09:12 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Armed_Man_Piker:
You're a "swordsman"?

[/QUOTE]
Not really

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#114677 - 02/15/05 02:42 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think that the samurai is the better swordsman, cuz ninja's jused steath an decepion as there main weapon.
ninja's didn's get in to fights verry often(they spreaded some powder in there opponent's face and flet).


[This message has been edited by judokater (edited 02-15-2005).]

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#114678 - 02/15/05 03:28 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Let me put this as gently as possible: Judokatar, your knowledge of the facts is as flimsy as your grasp on the English language.

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#114679 - 02/16/05 02:13 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Assassin750:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Armed_Man_Piker:
You're a "swordsman"?

[/QUOTE]
Not really

[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that's what I thought...

Top
#114680 - 02/17/05 10:41 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


QUOTE]Originally posted by Benjamin1986:
Let me put this as gently as possible: Judokatar, your knowledge of the facts is as flimsy as your grasp on the English language.[/QUOTE]

you tell me the facts first and then degrade me.

as far as I know every thing I said was correct

and my English is very good for a 14 jear old Dutch boy

ps. I think its just sad to offend people like that, you shouldn稚 degrade people, you sould correct them if you know better

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#114681 - 02/17/05 10:56 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


i agree with judokater on the degradation. that was rude and uncalled for, as for the language it self i have a tiny pearl of wisdom "critise a mirror before you critisize others" I make no pretence at being a spelling and grammatical genius.

anyway. the word ninjitsu, if i am correct, means art of stealth, and kenjitsu mean, again if my loose grasp of japanese is correct, art of blade. so is it not logical the ninja used stealth over straight combat.

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#114682 - 02/17/05 12:26 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
SwordCritter.

"Ninjutsu" and "Kenjutsu" are just "arts"--such as tea, or flower arranging.

As I mentioned above--since some "samurai" were also practicing "ninja" the question is bollocks.

On the off chance your serious, please read thu the posts prior to posting yourself--saves time.

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#114683 - 02/17/05 12:36 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


yes i did notice the post you had made prior cxt but it didn't do much for the discussion except try to nullify it which is never good. until the point is moot i will continue to argue it.

as for your styate ment on me not reading the thread before posting. i will have you know that i read every post before i even think about posting my self.

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#114684 - 02/17/05 01:24 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Umm... then stop posting, it is a moot point. That's what cxt was pointing out.

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#114685 - 02/17/05 01:52 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Is it all about having the last word?
a endless argument gives a great deal of info
About the arts, it weak points and its strong points.
the rapier vs. katana was a very good topic. cuz people were naming advantages and disadvantages.
that way people learn stuff, and that is (in my view)the propos of a forum

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#114686 - 02/17/05 02:00 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
But at what cost? How much of it was misinformation.

Top
#114687 - 02/17/05 04:37 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Judo

Or learn that better questions can be asked.

Or a person can learn that in this specifc case some "samurai" WERE "ninja."

Which is more than the first poster knew.

I'd say that folks paying attention could learn alot.

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#114688 - 02/17/05 04:56 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


What I have learned from reading threads is to pay attention to certain people. There are a few people who are very knowledgable on sword arts, and they are the ones worth listening to. How they respond to others' posts is how I define the legitimacy of the posts.

However, I don't hold something to be true as soon as I hear it from these people. I wait until it's verified by one or two other sources before I adopt it to be truth.

All threads have some value, you just have to learn how to sift through the BS, which is really quite easy to do.

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#114689 - 02/18/05 09:00 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


the "shinobigatana" or the now so called ninja-to was an inferior weapon most of the time because of the poorer practices used in its construction. it was a tool rather than a real work of art and almost never had any type of grain or hamon or even any blade lamination to speak of. the samurai sword "iai-to" or katana as is now the popular word (though wrong) was a work of smithing ART these original blades were made to perfection by the serious sword smiths and include MANY lamination types and processes depending on the smordsmith in question. i am also a swordsmith (my work is not for sale though i can provide pictures of what i make) and during test cutting it is possible to cut through tree branches that are as thick as a mans thigh in one stroke. with a blade such as this many duals fought by the likes of musashi and others lasted a total of a few seconds, because a good student of the way is able to cut down a man almost instantly. it was a case of who got in the first blow first, beacuse if you didnt you were dead - that simple. the so called ninja-to was more of a tool, used for many things and not just a weapon. it was used as a steping platform to get onto walls. it was used to cut vines and rope etc. it was used to skin and prepare his dinner even. it was a tool rather than a weapon. so the main question is invalid because ninja as a whole were not swordsmen at all, but assassins who rarely had to use their swords. BUT , they also trained in many arts and come from many walks of life therefore a ninja could be quite a good swordsman IF he was previously a samurai who was employed into epionage. and thats just the simple truth.

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#114690 - 02/18/05 09:22 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Interesting... and just where did you get all this information? I'm particularly interested in the source of this particular quote. It's a real Gem.

[QUOTE]the samurai sword "iai-to" or katana as is now the popular word (though wrong) was a work of smithing ART these original blades were made to perfection by the serious sword smiths and include MANY lamination types and processes depending on the smordsmith in question.[/QUOTE]

That's a very poorly written sentence, but I think one of the things you are trying to say is that the Samurai sword which used to be called an iaito, is now wrongly called an katana. Interesting theory.

You also seem to be saying that iaito "were a work of smithing ART". That "these original blades were made to perfection by the serious sword smiths and include MANY lamination types and processes depending on the smordsmith in question."

Could you describe this ninja sword you are talking about?

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#114691 - 02/18/05 09:50 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


im not interested in hearing about my poor construction of sentances, taking a dig at that is a weakness is itself, and further more i was just trying to be helpful. the information is out there for you to read as for ANY other person who is genuinly interested in the subject of iaido/kenjutsu/kendo etc. so the fact is that in days of old the ninja sword was inferior and able to be easily CUT IN HALF by a well made "katana". but just for an example, try looking up the REAL meaning for the word KATANA in japanese, and not just with one search but many. reasearch the word before you make a statement. cheers

Top
#114692 - 02/18/05 09:59 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


by the way, incase you do not do the research a shinken and iaito are the two words traditionally used for a samurai sword, and if you do the research you will find that the word samurai is also incorect. these are the words that are common/popular today.

Top
#114693 - 02/18/05 10:09 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Really. So Iaito is a traditional word. How long you reckon Iaito have been around I wonder. For that matter, how long as the term shinken been in use?

As for the critique of your sentence construction, I wasn't trying to make fun of you in any way. I genuinely could not be sure what you were trying to say.

[QUOTE]
reasearch the word before you make a statement.[/QUOTE]

That's a very good piece of advice.

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#114694 - 02/18/05 11:56 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
One more time for the cheap seats, the ninja-to was not a historical sword. The so-called "techniques" for the ninja-to as a tool for climbing or what ever were a development of the ninja boom in the 80's. Th swords used in ninjutsu were the same as a katana with exception to the length of the blade. The tsuka and saya were the same as a katana but the blade would be shorter, similar to a wakizashi blade.

I'm not even going to get into the "iaito, katana" discussion, i'll let Mr. Mahan have his fun.

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#114695 - 02/19/05 12:03 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


thats funny, a ninja-to as a tool for alot of things is well documented even by the schools themselves. lol. but i use the term ninja-to loosly. as with alot of the sword arts and differeing historical information things need to be interpreted by the researcher. alot of the swords used were just "katana" that were passed down from father to son etc. and alot of other espionage experts had their own preference for length or straitness or even curvedness. again reasearch is the key. do not beleive everything you read from some website - they could be ANYONE. lol

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#114696 - 02/19/05 12:55 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
No i believe the historians and museum exhibits i've seen in Japan. None of which show any signs of the straight blade "ninja-to" seen today. Before you tell ME to do some research maybe you should look a bit farther than Kevin Hawthorn for your ninjutsu oriented information. The ninja-to is nothing more than neoninja garbage promoted by Hollywood and ninja frauds.

Top
#114697 - 02/19/05 01:26 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


classic. ive been to alot of museums in japan myself (i spent 3 years living in tokyo) and i have also seen alot of personal collections. i have seen everything from straitish blades to extremely curved blades. i find it very amusing that people always question stuff here. and i have done ALOT of training and research myself. both myself at such places and from books. i would be interested to know what museums you visited and which swords from which swordmakers you viewed (if it is questioning we are getting into here) i would be more than happy to provide information about what i have seen from what makers and in what collections, but since this IS a forum, please share this information with us. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] lol

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#114698 - 02/19/05 03:04 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
I never said anything about sword collectors, I said historians some of which did have some impressive collections. As for the museums I visited, two that would have relevance to this conversation would be the sword museum in Tokyo and the Togakure Ninja Shiryokan. Neither of them showed any evidence of the ninja-to.

What I find funny are people who throw out statements as fact but avoid clarifying where they got the information. Instead they complain about being asked to prove something.

[QUOTE] by the way, incase you do not do the research a shinken and iaito are the two words traditionally used for a samurai sword, and if you do the research you will find that the word samurai is also incorect. these are the words that are common/popular today.[/QUOTE]

Statements like this are why you are being questioned about your history and training. Feel free to expound on this statement. Where did you learn this? What IS the correct term if samurai is not? What exactly IS the definition of iaito? Or shinken for that matter.

Before you tell other people they need to do their research you need to check your facts because the above statement is complete rubbish.

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#114699 - 02/19/05 03:17 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Feel free to take a look at Richard Stein's page as well and see what is said about the ninja-to there.
http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/faq.htm
http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/realold.htm

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#114700 - 02/19/05 03:44 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


a quick quote from the webpage

Q : Where can I get a ninja sword?
A : Ninja swords are Hollywood fictions. There is no historical evidence that ninja used swords any different from those used by samurai or anyone else.

as it says closer

that ninja used swords any different from those used by samurai or anyone else.

since you have seen swrods in museums and so forth you should also know that there are as many different sword types as there are sword makers of the time. and also no two swords are alike as i have mentioned in another thread.

as i have said i have seen swords that are straitish to extremely curved. this comes from different styles of sword making as well as the swordmakers preference.

all you did was substanciate my point, thank you

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#114701 - 02/19/05 04:21 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


ok here goes. this is the information which i have always thought to be true, both from instructors and from books, below i will quote a few passages from a book i have just to give you an example. please clarify this for me if you beleive me to be wrong.

page 210 from "the history and philosophy of kendo"

kendoka (kendo students) would also work with a bokken (bambo sword) and the katana (practise sword)

also a quote from the same page again

it is interesting to note that for the greater part of japanese history, kendo and/or kenjutsu were practised almost exclusivly by the BUSHI, known more commonly TODAY as the samurai.

and from the chapter on iaido

iaido derives from the ancient way of the samurai warrior (bushi), and the forerunner of the art we know today, IAI-JUTSU, was used in ernest on the battlefield, whereas iaido was designed to practise "the way of the sword".
evildence suggests that the bokken used today in the novice training of iaido has been used as a weapon since about AD400. the curved swords seen today are not the original japanese swords. indeed they were flat, strait swords of primitive construction,used for simple strikes and thrusts. it was around AD940, the middle of the heian period, that the single edged, slightly curved sword appeared and the supurb skill or the japanese warrior developed. until that time single handed swords were used in battle by mounted soldiers, using the right hand to draw and cut the enemy.
sometime after the 16th century, battle strategy changed and mounted warriors replaced foot warriors who had worn light armor and used techniques requiring both hands on the hilt.

in training a samurai (bushi) would use a bokken(woooden sword) or a katana (practise sword) to minimise injury when not in battle.
during times of battle they would employ the use of a sharp shinken (to) of great craftsmanship, able to cut a man down in a single blow with an experienced hand.

this is a quote from fay goodmans book
"the history and philosophy of kendo"

fay goodman : a leading exponent of shinto-ryu (8th dan) and winner of the gold medal in the 1995 european championships. once of the most respected and highest graded female martial artists in the world.

she had collaberation in this book by
trevor jones : 6th dan iaido, 4th dan kendo, and has represented GB in both european and world champoinships.

and

hiroshi sugawara
5th dan kendo, studied in miyagi prefecture japan for 20 years, and hokkaido japan for 10 years.

i hope this is enough information for you.

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#114702 - 02/19/05 04:52 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]by the way, incase you do not do the research a shinken and iaito are the two words traditionally used for a samurai sword, and if you do the research you will find that the word samurai is also incorect. these are the words that are common/popular today. [/QUOTE]

Mr Mahan, can you please tell us what a shinken and an iaito are?

The books Walltiger quotes seem to conflict common learning.

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#114703 - 02/19/05 04:57 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


to me a shinken is a sharp "live" sword and an iaito is a lesser grade sword that is not usually sharp.

by traditional i ment by the schools,

i beleive the actual traditional word for a sword was "to" lol.

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#114704 - 02/19/05 05:13 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Shinken is live but newly made, I believe since WW2. Why would a samurai use a blunt blade?

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#114705 - 02/19/05 05:17 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


training as i have mentioned above. an overlord would not want dead soldiers in their ranks, lmao

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#114706 - 02/19/05 05:23 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


the word shinken actually translates as "real sword"

but yes iwould agree that terminology today would dictate shinken to mean a newly made live sword.

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#114707 - 02/19/05 10:00 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


the ninja would win the match, since the samurai are loyal to their believe in honour, ruels and kodexes on a battle field, the ninja would use on of his many weapons, regardless of honour, to out-smarten the samurai and then kill him.

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#114708 - 02/19/05 11:12 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Walltiger,

Your claim was that the "ninja-to" was used by ninjutsu practitioners and existed in history. The ninja-to is a straight blade, square tsuba sword with black fittings. This sword did not exist prior to the ninja boom of the 80's. Go back and read my previous post about the ninja-to. The site i referred you to did NOT "substanciate" your claims, you just changed your stance. Either you don't know what a ninja-to is or your changing your story.

Now for your iaito/shinken comments. Basically you read a couple of books, misunderstood them and your not stating your misunderstandings here as fact and claiming we need to do more research? If your instructors are telling you this you need to find new instructors. We've already established one of your instructors was a fraud and didn't know anything about ninjutsu. You never did say who was teaching you iaido and kendo.

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#114709 - 02/19/05 02:16 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree with liam .A ninja would not come in direct combat, as said before a ninja was an assassin, and therefore has no need for direct combat.
and if they were forced in to combat they would do anything to get out alive.
as for how is an better swordsmen, I would still say a Samurai (sorry for not using the correct term for samurai), because a they train more with swords then the ninja's do (in a fair situation)(and I am talking about two men that are at the same level in there own art)

ps, if you disagree, let me know by telling what is incorrect , and how it should be.

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#114710 - 02/19/05 06:33 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by walltiger:
the word shinken actually translates as "real sword.[/QUOTE]

Shin - new.

Ken - sword.

Thus, shinken - new sword.

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#114711 - 02/19/05 06:55 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


laf, i do not claim that ninja used a ninja-to, i claimed that they used shinobigatana (usually short katana with black fittings) and as i stated before, there was little if no differece in any of the swords, length straiteness or curvedness was the preference of the person that the sword was being made for and also the person making the sword, the style of the swordmaker, and even another determining factor of straitness or curvedness is the types and ratios of steel used as well as how many lamination layers was used to make the sword.

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#114712 - 02/19/05 07:43 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Since I was asked I'll provide the answers as I understand them.

There is an arcticle at Richard Stein's site concerning Shinken. http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/shinken.htm

I think it makes it pretty clear walltiger has his facts a little mixed up.

During the post WWII occupation all sword production was stopped. It was seen as a symbol of imperial power and agression and the priority at the time was to prevent uprisings. Eventually the Japanese government began to allow smiths to resume their work, although with considerable limitations.

As the sword arts flourished and the number of students swelled the remaining smiths found themselves incapable of keeping up with demand under the governmental regulations. As a result a way around the restrictions was sought and found. The regulations governed swords made of steel, but not swords made of non-ferrous alloys. I believe Meirin was the first company to put out what was referred to at first as a mogito, and later as an iaito. They were non-sharpened and ideal for beginning students. The government did not have a problem with them as they did not violate the regulations. Eventually they became known as Iaito, because they were used primarily by practitioners of Iaido.

So contrary to Walltigers assertions, Iaito is hardly a traditional word for a katana. There are a number of other problems with his assertions. I'll use a different post.

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#114713 - 02/19/05 08:13 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by walltiger:
page 210 from "the history and philosophy of kendo"

kendoka (kendo students) would also work with a bokken (bambo sword) and the katana (practise sword)
[/QUOTE]

I supsect you added the information in those quotes above concerning the translations of bokken and katana. Here's why I say that. http://www.bokkenshop.com/eng/151.html That's a pretty standard bokken. Note it's not made out of bamboo.

The bamboo swords that the kendo students use is called a shinai. Here's an example http://www.e-bogu.com/Shinai_s/18.htm

Now kendo students do occasionally use bokuto, and when the practice iai they do use katana, so it's possible the book said something to that affect.


[QUOTE]
also a quote from the same page again

it is interesting to note that for the greater part of japanese history, kendo and/or kenjutsu were practised almost exclusivly by the BUSHI, known more commonly TODAY as the samurai.
[/QUOTE]

You've made a mistake in your reading comprehension here. Just because Bushi are more commonly known today as Samurai does not mean that refering to Bushi as Samurai is incorrect. The statement that you quoted above is not proof of your assertion that Samurai is an incorrect term.

[QUOTE]
and from the chapter on iaido

<snip a bunch of stuff that didn't seem relevant to the topics at hand>

in training a samurai (bushi) would use a bokken(woooden sword) or a katana (practise sword) to minimise injury when not in battle.
during times of battle they would employ the use of a sharp shinken (to) of great craftsmanship, able to cut a man down in a single blow with an experienced hand.

[/QUOTE]

Ok so now you're saying that a bokken is a wooden sword. Again I suspect you added the bit about the katana being a practice sword. Now this use of the term shinken seems wholy inappropriate. I'm not saying it isn't in the book, but seems like a strange use of the term. Frequently the term shinken is used by iaido practitioners to differentiate a live/sharp sword from a dull training sword. It isn't really appropriate taken in this context, but it could be argued that I'm just mincing words here.

I found more information about Fay Goodman at her dojo's website http://www.masamunedojo.com/

She apparently trained with Haruna-sensei. She seems quite legitimate as far as I can tell. Note that I'm not really taking issue with much of anything that you actually quoted out of the book. Just your interpretation of it.

[This message has been edited by Charles Mahan (edited 02-19-2005).]

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#114714 - 02/19/05 08:23 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


i just typed in the text from the book as it was, im not even TRYING to explain it in any way with my own words - it was as it was brackets included.

and my statement on samurai was that the term samurai is also incorect for the warriors of the time. samurai translates as SERVANT, and bushi translates as WARRIOR. it is obvoius to me that someone who follows bushido (way of the warrior) would be a bushi (warrior) not a SERVANT following the way of the warroir, it is also obvoious to me that the word servant come from the fact that the said warrior SERVED the lord in question. i doubt he would think of HIMSELF as a servant and would be more likely to think of himself as a warrior that follows the way of the warrior. it is clear to me that this term samurai was put in place by the lords and not my the warriors themselves, thats why i said that the term was incorrect. perhaps i should have been clearer in my explination and thoughts.
cheers.

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#114715 - 02/19/05 08:46 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Whether it is obvious to you or not, you're still wrong. Samurai was a class in the Japanese feudal system. Bushi were usually but not always Samurai. You really are not exhibitting a very clear understanding of Samurai or Bushido.

The two terms are not interchangable, but they are not mutually exclusive either. Do some more research.

And yes the Samurai were generally very subservient to their lords to the point of committing ritual suicide when so ordered.

[This message has been edited by Charles Mahan (edited 02-19-2005).]

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#114716 - 02/19/05 10:53 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
This was your first statement about the ninja-to.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Walltiger:the "shinobigatana" or the now so called ninja-to was an inferior weapon most of the time because of the poorer practices used in its construction.[/QUOTE]

This is what i responded with.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by laf7773:One more time for the cheap seats, the ninja-to was not a historical sword.[QUOTE]

Then you responded with this statement.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Walltiger:thats funny, a ninja-to as a tool for alot of things is well documented even by the schools themselves.[/QUOTE]

Since finding out you have no legitimate ninjutsu training and i referenced you to a site noted for their expertise in Japanese swords you now are changing your story. You never said anything about a ninja-to being curved, you simply called it a "ninja-to" and as we all know what is now called a ninja-to and that it is not a sword found in Japanese history you are trying to fish your way out.

You really do need to do more research before you start stating things as fact. You are way off on a lot of things.

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#114717 - 02/20/05 04:59 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


as i have said, i was using the term ninja-to loosly.
http://coolshack.com/martial_arts/ninja.html

they state there pretty much what ive already said here. and i know for a fact that there have been strait/semi strait/ slightly curved/heavily curved swords because i have seen them for myself as i have said in museums and in private collections.

anyways the topic is "who is the better swordsman" and i say to that "whoever gets the killing blow in FIRST on the day" . .

lol [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#114718 - 02/20/05 06:05 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
I'm sorry but that sight is hardly accurate. It looks like it was written by a teen-ager that read a couple of Hatsumi books and saw WAY too many movies. I would hardly take their word on anything. It looks like more of a gross mix of Frank Dux lies with some subtle truths scattered about. There are two things in that sight that should set off some alarms that they don't know what they are talking about. The first isn't such a big deal but anyone practicing "real" ninjutsu knows the correct romanization is ninjUtsu and not ninjItsu. The majority of the ninja fakes will use the spelling ninjitsu as a way of separating themselves from legit schools because they usually can't provide any type of lineage or history. The second is that the nunchaku was not a weapon used in ninjutsu. This was another one started by the movie industry and the large number of frauds that converted their karate/tae kwon do schools into ninja schools in the 80's. That site is far from accurate, on any level.

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#114719 - 02/20/05 07:25 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
A perfect example of the kind of misinformation spread I've been talking about recently.

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#114720 - 02/20/05 08:11 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


i do not think so, as they quite blatantly explain what they beleive to be myths and lies about the art in the first place

quote 1
What makes a Ninja special ?
What makes a Ninja formidable is that they have to learn
"Taijutsu" (hand to hand combat) which incorporates "Bugei Juhappan" (18 Samurai
Arts)
and "Ninjutsu Juhakkei" (18 Ninjutsu Arts).
The "Bugei Juhappan" arts ranges from "Art of self defense" to "Art of throwing
blades".
The "Ninjutsu Juhakkei" arts ranges from "Art of spiritual refinement" to "Art of
special disappearing".
"Art of special disappearing" (Inton-jutsu) is the ability to trick the enemies senses.. !
Ninja needs not only to learn these arts but also to master them

quote 2
Many movies that portray the Historical Ninja as a member of a mystical magical warrior family. The
ninja in the movies cast magic spells, project their images, become invisible, fly through the air or even
run across water. These inaccuracies are not particularly damaging to the legendary image of the ninja.
They even add to the mystery and popularity of ninjutsu. The ninja seems to overlook all concepts of
right and wrong and and all morality in order to achieve his self serving goals.
None of these concepts are even close to describing the real ninja.
More than eight hundred years of history stretch back to the founder of the system of ninjutu, Daisuke
Nishina of Togakure Village. After defeat at the hands of Heike troops, Daisuke escaped from his place
of birth in Nagano and moved to the remote region of Iga. He changed his name to Daisuke Togakure
and later was credited with founding the Togakure ryu of ninjutsu.

is there ANYTHING in those 2 quotes that differentiates about your views you have stated, because they are on the first page, and also after researching alot of the other togakure aiki and taijutsu sites, they have also got alot of the other information right. as i said, i beleive what ive SEEN and thats that, i will not bother with this particular line of thought again.
cheers

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#114721 - 02/20/05 11:37 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
walltiger,

They said the "ninja tabi" have a split toe design to help with climbing trees. That alone should tell you they don't know what they are talking about. Tabi were not specifically for the "ninja" and the split toe design was because they were worn with zori or geta and had nothing to do with climbing trees. That site is full of misinformation and sites like that is part of the reason there is so much misunderstanding about ninjutsu.

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#114722 - 02/21/05 05:37 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


laf

that is a good call, i overlooked that. i know that tabi were worn commonly by most.

i do have a question though

were tabi as boots used commonly also (i am gen uinly not sure about this) and also were tabi with tougher soles only introduced after the said "boom"? .

cheers.

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#114723 - 02/21/05 06:19 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


this is the original topic

who is the better SWORDSMAN, ninja or samurai.
------------------------------------------------
samurai
the samurai is a SWORDSMAN, he has perfected the art over the last millenium.
------------------------------------------------
ninja
a ninja is an ASSASSIN, he kills by whatever means he can to get the job done.
------------------------------------------------

a samurai would obvously spend alot more time training with a sword.

a ninja would obviously use many things for his training.

a samurai is a class of people, BORN that way (and im sure there are ways that one can "come" into the samurai class. the majority of the time it was a family tradition to train and therefore the said bushi would have trained since he was a small child.

some factions claim that the ninja were also a family oriented class (in a way) so therefore the young ninja probably trained alot of his life with many things.

a samurai follows a code, but WILL AND CAN KILL if he is threatened, and even though he follows a code im sure that in most cases a sense of self preservation would dictate that he would do that at almost all costs.

a ninja follows his own code and has no "remorse" just a flat out killer, but since alot of his time would be taken with learning poisons, learning archery, learning healing, learning to climb, learning to do so many things, his knowledge of the sword would be diminished generalistically unless he possessed real natural ability.

so who is the better SWORDSMAN?

a samurai is the better SWORDSMAN. for the obvious reasons (in general).

who is the better KILLER?

a ninja is the better killer because he is trained to be a KILLER not a soldier.
he kills with poison, with arrows, with swords, with kama, with ANYTHING that gets the job done. but not nessisarily with the sword.

a samurai "lives by the blade (and hopefully) dies by the blade" if he has anything to say about it.

so, generalistically the SAMURAI would seem to be the logical choice for the better SWORDSMAN because the samurai IS a SWORDSMAN. not a jack of all trades ASSASSIN.

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#114724 - 02/21/05 06:40 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


ahhh the fine art of endless conversation [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#114725 - 02/21/05 07:47 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Wall

Hate to break it to you pal, you could not be more wrong.

As mentioned MANY times. Many samurai were also practicing ninja.

So what your asking is who would be a better swordsman?

A samurai or a samurai?

Now do you see why the question is bollocks

Even a casual read of Japanese history will show that samurai pretty much did whatever was needed to kill a foe.
The history is full of examples of lies, treachery and murder.

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 02-21-2005).]

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#114726 - 02/21/05 07:53 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


so you think that there were no assassins? . .

i dont care if some of them were samurai, the fact still remains that if someone focuses on ALOT of arts rather than one then it is the person who focuses on the ONE art that will be better at that said art.

there were assassins, today they are refered to as ninja (even if they were/werenot back then) they EXISTED, simple as that.

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#114727 - 02/21/05 07:56 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Again Walltiger you are just wrong. Do some research into Sogo Bujutsu arts. Most Samurai trained in a wide variety of weapons. It was not all sword all the time. The primary battlefield weapons of the Samurai were the Yari and the Yumi. The sword was a sidearm used only if the Samurai lost his primary weapons in combat or was attacked when not actively engaged in combat, ie walking around the city streets and getting attacked by brigands. The Samurai weren't soldiers so much as they were Nobles who happened to spend a lot of time training for war, or at least small scale conflicts.

As for the Ninja, if they ever existed at all as a seperate entity from the regular Samurai class, I don't truly care to speculate. There is way to much bogus information floating around. It's impossible to get at the truth of any matter that touches on the subject.

You're posts would be a lot easier to take if you'd just choose your language a little more carefully, and stop trying to come off as if you know everything when clearly you do not. Neither do I. You don't have to claim to know everything or post definitively all the time in order for people to take your seriously.

[This message has been edited by Charles Mahan (edited 02-21-2005).]

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#114728 - 02/21/05 08:09 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


i was not trying to come off as if i know everything in the post about samurai VS ninja. i was just stating my OPINION on who i think would be the better swordsman, i know that they also used a few other weapons on the battle field, but they trained extensivly every day with a sword and thats why we have kendo iaido etc, they probably even had arts for naginata(spelling?) etc also but never became popular today like the sword arts have. an assassin (i will refer to them as ninja for the moment just for ease of use) would have to master and did master ALOT of things including poisons/healing/darts/weapons/climbing/evading/espionage/etc etc etc etc etc. so even if there was no such thing or whatever the fact remains that someone that spent alot of time training in one thing would be better than someone who trained in that thing but also trained in MANY others taking focus off the main art in question. its not that i know everything, in your eyes i may be wrong (as are most other people in your eyes) but in MY opinion, for the question of who is a better swordsman, i beleive that someone who studies a sword extensivly and daily would be a better swordsman that someone who studied a myriad of things on a daily basis.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#114729 - 02/21/05 08:48 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Wall

Then you STILL asking who is a better swordsmen a samurai or a samurai?

Nonsense question.

And actually naginata IS a pretty popular art in japan, they have competitons just like kendo, and use simlar "weapons."

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#114730 - 02/21/05 08:50 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
The samurai spent just as much time training in various other arts including sword arts. It wasn't all sword training for them and i'd venture to say it wasn't even the majority. Just like any military they wouldn't spend the majority of their time training any one weapon. People associate the samurai with the katana because that's how the movies paint them. As has been pointed out the katana was a side arm and not a primary weapon of battle. Also the samurai's "code" is believed to have not existed until peaceful times. The code of bushido was brought about in an attempt to give the samurai a purpose in a time when they really weren't needed anymore, a way for them to try and maintain their status. Prior to that they pretty much did as they pleased.

As for the tabi, i don't think the thick soled tabi was a result of the ninja boom. There are workers in Japan that wear them as a kind of work boot even today. The tabi boots with the thick rubber sole was a product of the ninja boom. But originally there was just a tabi sock and a tabi "boot" with a thicker, stronger material and were used by dancers and theater artists to protect their feet since zori were not worn indoor during performances.

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#114731 - 02/21/05 08:52 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
So is kyudo. Hojojutsu is still practiced by a few as well even though i personally haven't seen much of it recently.

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#114732 - 02/21/05 10:27 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


To answer, with what is solely my opinion, the original question asked if the thread...

We'll use a daylight, open-ground fight, with the ninja in their stealthy quiet clothes, the samurai clad in their traditional armor. The ninja was never a samurai at any point in his life. The samurai was not knowledged in the ninja ways. Swords drawn, they approach.

A few parries and broad strokes, the occasional dodge, until finally someone misses a large swing and gets countered to death. End fight.

Considering the emphasis on the longsword in the Samurai's training he'll have the upper hand. The samurai learned to kill the hell outta other human beings via longsword. Of course, a ninja would most likely have no reason to engage an armored opponent in combat when a longbow could effectively eliminate the threat.

Once more, solely my opinion. Kept using longsword so as not to present the dreaded K word everyone seems to despise.

- Op. Skinny Ninja

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#114733 - 02/22/05 03:21 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]they probably even had arts for naginata(spelling?) etc also but never became popular today like the sword arts have. [/QUOTE]

Naginata is still popular these days, in fact there is a Victorian association. http://home.vicnet.net.au/~austnf/page3.html
I'm surprised you have never heard of this since you live in Victoria and have trained in budo for 22 years.

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#114734 - 02/22/05 04:04 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


i already knew you could train in the jap halberd in vic, they have it at the dojo i train at. i said "they probably have arts for it tho it is NOT AS POPULAR"

does anyone want to borrow my xray machine to examine the words any more closly?

meh

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#114735 - 02/22/05 04:24 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
And what dojo would that be?

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#114736 - 02/22/05 04:32 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


An X-ray machine might help decipher your poor spelling.

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#114737 - 02/22/05 04:47 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


so i have trouble spelling sometimes, i already mentioned i came from a rough background. SO WHAT?

picking on that is hardly intelligent, seems that some are running out of things to pick on.

and laf, i already said i was thru trying to explain myself to you, give it up.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#114738 - 02/22/05 04:55 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


and BTW laf i already told you where i train at, dont you read the posts that you are supposed to moderate. go back and read it and then come back and tell me whats wrong with it. lol. cos i know your going to.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#114739 - 02/25/05 02:58 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well for all of you who want to know the truth, The ninja were hired assassins. They were usually hired by either the local Yakuza or neighboring councilmen (samurai)(daimyo)to knock off and enemy near by. To answer the question of who is a better swordsmen, well who practices harder in the art? There were many art styles that were used in the past. Like, muso shin den ryu jukiden ryu, Shinshin muso ryu, yagyu ( very famous style by the way) and so many more. Each individual develops there own techniques when taught the fundamentals of budo. Keep in mind the term Sayano-Uchi which is defined....

Sayano-uchi is another name for Iai. A sword should never be drawn easily. The mystery of Iai is that defeat an enemy before drawing your sword. Don稚 put someone to the sword and do not be put to someone痴 sword. Just drives out any evil thought of self-interest keeping self control. The best time to draw your sword is that after defeating an enemy....

It is basically about one's character and skill. whether is be a ninja, ronin, Samurai, or a paranoid schizophrenic. Whoever has the strongest character will always win. Keep the zanshin strong. For those of you who don't understand the terminology, you may want to consider taking up bowling instead.

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#114740 - 02/25/05 08:59 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by haibara_iaido:
Well for all of you who want to know the truth, The ninja were hired assassins. They were usually hired by either the local Yakuza or neighboring councilmen (samurai)(daimyo)to knock off and enemy near by.

[/QUOTE]

Don't believe everything you read online, and only half of what you read in books. And practically nothing about ninja. Far too much misinformation in all sources.

[QUOTE]

To answer the question of who is a better swordsmen, well who practices harder in the art? There were many art styles that were used in the past. Like, muso shin den ryu jukiden ryu, Shinshin muso ryu, yagyu ( very famous style by the way) and so many more.
[/QUOTE]

Not sure what jukiden Ryu is supposed to be. Not a style name I recognize.

[QUOTE]
Keep in mind the term Sayano-Uchi which is defined....

Sayano-uchi is another name for Iai. A sword should never be drawn easily. The mystery of Iai is that defeat an enemy before drawing your sword. Don稚 put someone to the sword and do not be put to someone痴 sword. Just drives out any evil thought of self-interest keeping self control. The best time to draw your sword is that after defeating an enemy....
[/QUOTE]

Well... not exactly. Saya no Uchi is a key concept in iai, but it is not another word for iai. Saya no Uchi is one of those terms that has a hundred different interpretations. A direct translation is "inside the saya". One intepretation is that if you develop your skill and presence to a sufficiently high enough degree, an encounter with a potential opponent becomes unlikely. Your phsyical presence and reputation are sufficient to intimidate your oponent into backing down. A philisophical take on the same idea would say that the best encounter is one where the sword is never drawn. A less idealistic interpretation is that you dominate your opponent through means of superior presence and force of will, and once his will to fight is broken, you strike him down. A practical and technical interpretation is that the initial cut begins while the tip of the sword is literally still inside the saya.

There are a variety of other interpretations as well.

[This message has been edited by Charles Mahan (edited 02-25-2005).]

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#114741 - 02/25/05 08:59 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


ok, dunno where this thread went after a while but in response to the original topic,
the "ninja" when referred to as a cultural group did not exist. This is one of the most stupid questions ever asked. And please, don't say "fellow swordsmen" if you call yourself one, you're insulting real swordsmen, wat are you anyway? 4?
TV and movies are the WORST sort of information on martial arts. seek out some good literature on the topic or find a good class.
Have fun watching cartoon network

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#114742 - 02/26/05 05:59 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Does anyone know anything about ninja history? I've heard stories about samurai waging war against the ninja because the shogun at the time feared their power, and 2 notable battles occurring, something like 19000 samurai against 2500 ninja on their home ground, ninja winning outright, and another with 45000 saumrai against 4000 ninja, ninja losing but samurai sustaing very heavy casualties (and one of the ninja assasinating the shogun anyway).

Can someone with a reliable knowledge of Ninja or Japanese history in general perhaps clarify or disprove this story?

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#114743 - 02/26/05 10:47 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sorry everyone for posting my reply about jukiden. I meant to type Jikiden.

I would like to say something directly to Charles Maham. I have been living in Japan for over 12 years and have been practice aikido and iaido for for over 10 of those. The information that I gave is directly from the test given to those who wish to take their third fourth or fifth black belt in Iaido.

So in regards to this statement about sayano uchi that I gave, well it is exactly as it stands. If you wish to question this, by all means please do so. Here, I will give you a listing of my source. Just look at the third name from the list.
http://www.hidecnet.ne.jp/~noriha/ibadoren/zen.htm
http://www.kendorenmei-shizuoka-pref.com/deisyu568.htm

羽賀忠利 My teacher

居合道範士八段

(財)全日本剣道道場連盟副会長

静岡県警察名誉師範

武講同窓会会長

養心剣友会会長

Haga Sensei also had an older brother who unfortantely past away some time ago. His brother taught Takakura Ken iaido and Kendo. You can also check that out in the subscription od Kendo Nihon http://www.skijournal.co.jp/kendo/book/0308/main.html


He is my teacher here in shizuoka. I would like to know who yours is. Maybe some American guy named john? Let me say that I would, without hesitation, take my teachers word over yours. I don't think 3 dan even qualifies you to lecture someone who holds two ranks above you.

But without becoming bitter. I recommend yu just check for yourself. Or better yet, just get you chibby butt out of clear water, come to Japan to take your 4th dan test. Have you ever even been in Japan?


So before you question other peoples knowledge and accuse them of getting info from the web. be very sure you know what you are talking about.

For those of your who practice Budo, I wish you all the success. for those of you who like to read about budo and prance around thinking you know what you are talking about, that would be you grasshopper, pick up your shinken or in your case maybe a mogito and just praktice. Stop trying to be a guru.

Chareles-居合道確り勉強をしなさい!!

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#114744 - 02/26/05 11:36 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Apologies for the Japanese. This site doesn't have the proper reading tools.

An additional apology for any mistakes in spelling the previous messages. I hold a 5th kyyu in typing. hehe

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#114745 - 02/27/05 01:28 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sorry but now I'm a little curious if Japanese swordsmen or Korean swordsmen are better.

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#114746 - 02/27/05 01:36 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wait, so are there such things as ninja swords or not?

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#114747 - 02/27/05 09:57 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
In terms of the "ninja-to" (straight blade, square tsuba), no there isn't.

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#114748 - 02/28/05 09:16 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


So does a ninja have a special type of sword or not?

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#114749 - 02/28/05 09:24 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Assassin

No, they did not.

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#114750 - 03/01/05 02:32 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Benjamin1986:
Let me elaborate on Charles' statement. The "ninja" as known in popular culture didn't exist, so your question is mood at the get-go. However, your question has some other problems.

With both ninja and samurai, you had those who were blademasters, as well as many who never entered combat. This question is so general that it is impossible to answer conclusively, like those endless rapier-vs-katana arguments.

If you meant on a whole, here's how you find out: hire fifty kenjitsu swordsmen, and pit them one on one against real ninjitsu students (good luck finding real ones; many don't even call their art ninjistu anymore due to the Mcdojos). Then, come back and tell us how the tournament went.

[This message has been edited by Benjamin1986 (edited 02-14-2005).]
[/QUOTE]

you should study more on this stuff. you think ninjas are fake and you are wrong. so Don't speach unless you know what you say.

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#114751 - 03/01/05 02:46 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


It all matters of the time of the fights of these two swordsman. Kawakami Gensai 1 of 4 hitokiri of edo (1603 to 1867) would kill any ninja with his lightning-like speed.

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#114752 - 03/01/05 02:52 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
trunkssun,

I hate to tell you this but the popular vision of what people today think the ninja are is nothing more than Hollywood BS and the result of too many ninjItsu fakes.

Care to give a little background on yourself?

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#114753 - 03/01/05 02:52 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Unreal

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#114754 - 03/01/05 10:15 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Bear with me, this is my second time typing this response. Stupid back key on the dumb keyboard. Grumble.

Sorry for taking so long to reply. Somehow I missed it earlier.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by haibara_iaido:

I would like to say something directly to Charles Maham. I have been living in Japan for over 12 years and have been practice aikido and iaido for for over 10 of those. The information that I gave is directly from the test given to those who wish to take their third fourth or fifth black belt in Iaido.

[/QUOTE]
Congradulations on having been fortunate enough to be able to train in Japan. The information stating that Saya no Uchi is another name for Iaido was on your third fourth and fifth dan Kendo Renmei tests? Or are you talking about the information you posted regarding ninjas? I would be genuinely suprised to find information about Ninja on a ZNKR exam. I'm assuming your Kendo Renmei based on the site you posted that is a kendo renmei url.


[QUOTE]
So in regards to this statement about sayano uchi that I gave, well it is exactly as it stands. If you wish to question this, by all means please do so. Here, I will give you a listing of my source. Just look at the third name from the list.
http://www.hidecnet.ne.jp/~noriha/ibadoren/zen.htm
http://www.kendorenmei-shizuoka-pref.com/deisyu568.htm

[/QUOTE]
Could you provide translations for the text in question? I cannot read Japanese. The idea that Saya no Uchi is another name for Iaido runs contrary to everything I have ever read or been taught. I'm not gonna just take your word for this, and I'm afraid I cannot read your citations. I really could use that translation.


[QUOTE]
He is my teacher here in shizuoka. I would like to know who yours is. Maybe some American guy named john? Let me say that I would, without hesitation, take my teachers word over yours. I don't think 3 dan even qualifies you to lecture someone who holds two ranks above you.

[/QUOTE]
First I did not lecture you. I gave some very good advice to the list in general. There is no solid information to be had on the subject of Ninja. The information I posted on Saya no uchi was for the list in general and not necessarily directed at you. I stand by my assessment of the term as written above.

Calling me down for daring to question a post written by someone who is apparently a rank ahead of me is a silly thing to do. Your background was not exactly common knowledge so I could not have known you are a fifth dan. As we are both aware, fifth dan is not exactly a rank with any real authority attached to it at any rate. Certainly not in Japan. And our ranks aren't really comparable anyway considering we are within different Renmei.

BTW which koryu did you say you studied? Takakura Ken iaido? That's a new one on me. Is that the ryu-ha you hold rank in? Or are you exclusively Seitei Iai?

I do in fact train under John Ray-sensei, but I haven't been a sandan in a couple of years. Ray-sensei's bio is available at http://www.dentondojo.com In short, sensei is the senior representative of the Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Seitokai and Zen Nippon Iaido Renmei in the US. He holds the rank of Nanadan Kyoshi awarded by Ikeda Takashi-soke. Ray-sensei trained in Chiba Japan under Yamashita Noboru-sensei during the 80s. He moved back to the US in '91 and started the dojo I train in in '96(I think). Our dojo is a part of the Chiba region. The current head of our parent dojo in Chiba is Tanida Hiroshi-sensei Hachidan Hanshi. He will be here in three weeks to run a Koushukai and conduct a Shodan Shiken.

[QUOTE]
But without becoming bitter. I recommend yu just check for yourself. Or better yet, just get you chibby butt out of clear water, come to Japan to take your 4th dan test. Have you ever even been in Japan?
[/QUOTE]
Due to issues of my wife's health I will be unable to attend the Golden Week events this year as I had hoped. I missed the dojo group trip a few years ago, so no I have not yet made the trip. My current plan is to make it next year for sure, and at the latest to make the shodan shiken in Kyoto for my rokudan exam.

Unfortunately my finances are not such that I can travel to Japan at the drop of a hat. Round trip airfare runs around $1000 or so from DFW airport to Tokyo. Not the kinda money I have just laying around.

What did you mean by "Get your chibby but out of clear water?" Would that be the Clear Water as in Clear Water Texas? One of my kohai has a dojo in Clear Water, but I do not train there. And I don't recognize the term chibby.


[QUOTE]
So before you question other peoples knowledge and accuse them of getting info from the web. be very sure you know what you are talking about.

[/QUOTE]
As I have admitted on plenty of ocassions, I'm hardly an authority. I've been doing Iai for less than 8 years. I won't even come close to being any kind of authority for another 20 or so years. The subjects I post on are typically things I do know something about. Saya no uchi is certainly a term I am somewhat familiar with. And there really isn't much reliable information to be had on Ninja so those comments hold true as well.

[QUOTE]

For those of your who practice Budo, I wish you all the success. for those of you who like to read about budo and prance around thinking you know what you are talking about, that would be you grasshopper, pick up your shinken or in your case maybe a mogito and just praktice. Stop trying to be a guru.

Chareles-居合道確り勉強をしなさい!!
[/QUOTE]
I suspect I am the grasshopper mentioned above. I spend upwards of 9 hours a week training, and have used a shinken pretty much exclusively for a couple of years now. It's still teaching me plenty about saya no uchi. As I mentioned above, I am no guru, but I am not a fan of misinformation and do what I can when I can to dispute it. If you like, you are free to contradict me. It would help others to believe your assertions to provide a translation of the sources you mentioned. Or some other english language reference where someone uses the term saya no uchi in place of Iaido. Posting a reference to something like MJER Saya no Uchi as opposed to MJER Iaido would go a long way towards backing up your assertion that the two terms are interchangable. This is an english language board, and while some here do speak Japanese, there aren't many.

[This message has been edited by Charles Mahan (edited 03-01-2005).]

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#114755 - 03/02/05 11:16 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Charles, I think the links provided were just to show you who he learned this from. Neither page has a reference to saya no uchi.

I'm with you on this though. Saya no uchi is a key concept in our style (and presumably many others), but I have never, ever in my life heard the term used as another name for Iaido. Nobody practices "saya no uchi", it's a conceptual goal to reach in our practice of Iaido.

Haibara, with all due respect to your higher rank, you're one very condescending person. For one, it's impossible for anyone to guess your rank on the internet, so hitting Charles over the head with "How DARE you question your betters??!?!? I'm 2 dan above you!!!!" is ridiculously childish. You never said who you were and where you came from, don't expect respect when you step up to say something just because you have a Japanese name.

Second, all your insinuations about Charles being inferior because he's American are stupid. Our practice of Iaido didn't spring from a vacuum, it's all learned from Japanese people. So, please, stop that.

Of course you will take your teacher's word over anyone else's. However, WE haven't heard that teacher, we haven't seen anything about saya no uchi being another term for Iaido. To us, all you are is some random guy on the internet with an opinion. We won't give you credit just for saying something, we want references, texts, something substantial. Otherwise anyone can say anything and we'd have to take it at face value.

Perhaps there's some confusion as to what we're saying and we're in fact "both" right. Would you say "鞘の内をしましょう" in the same way as "居合道をしましょう"? 「鞘の内」と「居合道」は同じですか?

I apologize for my basic japanese, but I hope you still understand what I am saying.

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#114756 - 03/02/05 11:40 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
haibara_iaido,

I don't care what rank you claim; there will be no pulling rank in this forum section. This message board is for discussion. You made a statement that others, as well as myself, disagree with and it is to be discussed. You will not commit personal attacks here based on your "higher rank". No one here is a subordinate or a superior. If you want to discuss the subject then do so but you will not talk down to the members of this forum based on your rank. Disagreement is one thing; name calling and condescending remarks are another. This isn't the military and rank does not have any privileges here. A pompous arrogant attitude is also not welcome so i advise you to check your ego and attitude at the door before you find yourself on the other side of it.

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#114757 - 03/02/05 12:18 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by splice:
For one, it's impossible for anyone to guess your rank on the internet, so hitting Charles over the head with "How DARE you question your betters??!?!? I'm 2 dan above you!!!!" is ridiculously childish.[/QUOTE]

Especially in light of the fact that he was incorrect. He is apparently only one rank ahead of me, not two. A perfect example of how difficult it is to be able to tell strictly by someone's posts what rank they are unless they actually come out and say it.

If you're gonna pull rank, at least make sure you're aware of the relative ranks.

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#114758 - 03/05/05 08:31 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I`m really sorry for noticing this discussion
that late.

Normally I don`t care so much about more or less useful discussions - but in this case I feel responsible for at least trying to get some things corrected.
I will come back later and because so much is written, my next posting will probably be a little longer - and where needed, researched in my collection on Martial Arts.
What I can say so far, is that all in all laf7773 is right.

As far as I`m concerned with the question of straight ninja swords, there`s (as I heard) just a single real one (at least officially recognized as real ninja sword) in a japanese museum. I think it was the Iga Ninja Museum. With the eighties ninja boom, Manufacteuerers used this one as model (who should have bought a sword very similar to a katana while one can get "real" ninja weapons? At least in Germany, at that time one was often very proud "to be a Ninja" and not just a Samurai).)
It seems to me that straight swords would have been used more as hidden weapons (blade in walking sticks,flutes...) rather than as "normal" swords. That was possible, but not that common - who would not have wondered to see a Samurai with a straightbladed "Katana"?
Sorry, I have to go...

By for now,read you soon Wilf

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#114759 - 03/06/05 01:12 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


As promised, here are my thoughts on the subject, as far as they can maybe bring light into the thing. i only wrote about things that I`m sure of, none of the things you`ll read of I did get by just viewing bad ninja films or books.
.
.

judokater,posted 02-15-2005 03:42 PM:
"...ninja's didn's get in to fights verry often(they spreaded some powder in there opponent's face and flet)."

That`s partly right, but it`s like saying that Samurai didn`t know how to use the Yari (a straight spear), because they wore two swords in the belt. Sometimes they would use their swords and sometimes the Yari. If some writes at the PC, that doesn`t automatically mean, that he isn`t able to write on paper,too.
.
.

SwordCritter,posted 02-17-2005 11:56 AM:
"... the word ninjitsu, if i am correct, means art of stealth, and kenjitsu mean,..."

Actually there`s only "jUtsu", no "jItsu" (at least concerning what you wrote about) . I wrote about that in another thread in the "Martial Arts Talk"-section that is called
"Ninjitsu?".
.
.
walltiger,posted 02-18-2005 10:00 PM:
1. "shinobigatana" or the now so called ninja-to was an inferior weapon...and almost never had any type of grain or hamon..."
2. "duals fought...lasted a total of a few seconds,...it was a case of who got in the first blow first, beacuse if you didnt you were dead - that simple...."

To 1.: There`s a video of Soke (Grandmaster)Hatsumi of the Bujinkan about Hanbo & Shikomizue (hidden weapons, in this video blades), there he`s presenting a few Shinobigatana - some are very equal to the swords used by the Samurai, some have "sawbldes", one has a Tsuka (sword grip) with a hidden knife. Therefore one should never say that a Shinobigatana has to look exactly like this or that or has to be of lower quality to be one.

To 2.: There`s another short thread in the "Sword Arts"-section that is called "Sword Size?", there I wrote down my opinion about that.

.
.
walltiger,posted 02-19-2005 04:44 AM:
"...as it says closer
that ninja used swords any different from those used by samurai or anyone else. ...all you did was substanciate my point..."

Well, I think it`s more important that the quotationed sentence starts with."There is no historical evidence..." (...that this is true).
What`s that?
When I say:"Maria doesn`t feel very well.", Would you read it as: "Maria (as it says closer) "...feels very well." ?

.
.
.
.
walltiger,posted 02-19-2005 05:21 AM:
"...page 210 from "the history and philosophy of kendo

1.: "kendoka (kendo students) would also work with a bokken (bambo sword) and the katana (practise sword)..."

2.: "kendo and/or kenjutsu were practised almost exclusivly by the BUSHI, known more commonly TODAY as the samurai. ..."

3.: (from Iaido chapter) "iaido derives from the ancient way of the samurai warrior (bushi), and the forerunner of the art we know today, IAI-JUTSU, was used in ernest on the battlefield, whereas iaido was designed to practise "the way of the sword". ..."

4.: "...the curved swords seen today are not the original japanese swords. indeed they were flat, strait swords of primitive construction,used for simple strikes and thrusts. it was around AD940, the middle of the heian period, that the single edged, slightly curved sword appeared and the supurb skill or the japanese warrior developed. ..."

6.: "in training a samurai (bushi) would use a bokken(woooden sword) or a katana (practise sword) to minimise injury when not in battle. ..."

To 1.: That`s a little confusing but if someone sees bamboo as a kind of wood, then the Shinai could really be called a bokken/bokuto (wooden sword) though this term is normally used for the massive sword, made of one piece of wood. If someone ever went to a seminar of a certain martial art, where the translator wasn`t student of that art himself,his teachers will surely have told him afterwards that the translation often didn`t come close to what was said. We should remember that there are for example Kanji with over 30 or more different meanings and only by beeing familiar with the context one can choose the right one needed. ...
Even in Kendo one can train movements without an opponent, so if one uses a real sword for that, why shouldnエt that be a Katana as we know it today?
"Practice sword" in this context doesn`t automatically have to mean that it can`t have a sharp blade.

To 2.: Therefore every "so called" Samurai has to be a monk, or how do you think -if "Samurai" is equal to "Bushi"- about the Yama-"bushi" (=Mountain warriors, members of religious sects, referred to as warrior monks also)?
The Samurai (the "ones who serve" - for example their Daimyo or whomever) were just a part of the bushi-class (=warrior class)as were the Yamabushi.When we talk today about bushi, the first picture we think of is the Samurai, people like the Yamabushi for example are just not that popular.

To 3.: Yes,iaido was designed to practise the way of the sword - in 1968.
Iaijutsu was a part of the techniques in many schools. In modern times Kendo as a competition orientated sport came very popular. As many Kendoka (Kendo practioners) were interested in Iaijutsu, in 1968, 11 Iai masters decided to develope -independent from their complexed schools- a set of just 7 Kata (stilysed exercises of moving) which should contain the extract of the different schools. In 1980 3 further Kata were added. These 10 Kata are known since then as the Seitei-Iai (standard Iai) of the Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei (Alljapanese Kendo Association). I`m not practising Iaido especially, but what I told you is written in a book of the German Iaido Association.

To 4.: you`re probably talking about the "Tsurugi", one of the earliest swords used in japanese history and influenced by chinese ones or similar ones. As you yourself (!!!) wrote, that type of sword was relatively soon in history replaced by the curved ones. Furthermore "original" in this context seems to have the meaning of "the swords first used". The text talks about japanese swords, not ninja swords. The tsurugi was used in higher classes ,too. Therefore, if you would be right, then that means that even the samurai used primarily straight swords.
Nobody would think of a modern european soldier as fighting with a stone axe just because once such weapons have been used here many,many years ago. How fast do you read the books? Sometimes it`s better to read twice to be sure to understand what`s exactly written there.

To 6.: It`s the first time ever that I`ve heard of safe Katana swords.
.
.
.
judokater,posted 02-19-2005 03:16 PM:
"...a ninja was an assassin...I would still say a Samurai (sorry for not using the correct term for samurai), because a they train more with swords then the ninja's do (in a fair situation)(and I am talking about two men that are at the same level in there own art)..."

The Ninja as an assassin: that`s more influenced by movies. It is not false, but mainly ninja were employed for gathering information... . It would`ve been more easy to find someone near the person one wants to get killed for that job than to use ninja. It could`ve been months or years until a Ninja came close enogh to kill that person - if he could at all.
.
.
.
Charles Mahan,posted 02-19-2005 09:13 PM:
From Charles`his link to Fay Gooman`s Masamune Dojo I copied this:
"...Beginners start their iai study with a bokken (wooden sword). As their iai improves, they progress to an iaito (unsharpened practice blade) and finally, after a number of years, a shinken (live, sharpened blade)."

It seems that Fay Gooman has changed her mind or -as I think- walltiger has misinterpreted his book.
.
.
walltiger,posted 02-20-2005 05:59 AM:
"as i have said, i was using the term ninja-to loosly. [URL=http://coolshack.com/martial_arts/ninja.html..."]http://coolshack.com/martial_arts/ninja.html..."[/URL]
There are so many good Sites from Dojo worldwide, why gets walltiger his "hardly researched" infos from such one? There is nothing what would show that this Site is a serious one from an acknowledged Dojo of the Bujinkan,Genbukan or Jinenkan.
It looks like one of the Sites created by people which are influenced by Movies and books, yet not ever having done a single training lesson in the art themselves.
A few things are not totally false, the whole Site nevertheless does not at least to be serious.The things that are not false coul`ve been just copied for example from every twice book about Ninjutsu.
.
.
walltiger,posted 02-21-2005 07:19 AM:
"...but since alot of his (the ninja`s) time would be taken with learning poisons, learning archery, learning healing, learning to climb, learning to do so many things, his knowledge of the sword would be diminished generalistically unless he possessed real natural ability. ...a samurai is the better SWORDSMAN. for the obvious reasons..."

No,not really because the Samurai themselves missed probably much of their sword lessons, because they had to concentrate on so many other affairs,too.
Here`s an extract of a table from the book "Secrets of the Samurai, the chapter about the buke`s (military families) education:

1.Literay
-jugaku (chinese classics),
-shuji (calligraphy),
-gagaku (classical music),
-igaku (medicine),
-sugaku (maths),
-...

2.Military
-kyujutsu (art of the bow),
-unarmed combat with or without Yoroi (armor),
-Sojutsu (use of many different spears),
-suiei (swimming in armor),
-hojutsu (artillery & firearms),
-...

3.Optional
-sado/chado (tea ceremony),
-shisaku (poetry),
torioi (hunting),
sokuseki (impromptu versification)
.
.
Greetings, Wilf (Germany)

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#114760 - 03/06/05 02:17 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I eat ninjas. They taste like chicken and scream like lobsters when they are being cooked.

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#114761 - 03/07/05 08:16 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Simon

Ah, a food critic.

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#114762 - 03/07/05 08:48 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Assassin750:
Dear fellow swordsmens, is a ninja or a samurai a better swordsmen?[/QUOTE]

I think it would have ben more accurate to as "Which art was better for swordsmanship, Ninjitsu, or some school of Kenjitsu" of which their were many.
I am new here so I would like to say hello. Now, lets not be to hard on this person, I read some negative remarks and insults. Ignorance is not a crime, unless it is embraced, and I do not think this person is embracing it, but merely does not know any better.
Now, from my point of view, and I have been asked this many time, Samurai were more specialized in the sword then someone who studied ninjitus. The Ninja was a jack of all trades sort, in a general sense, I am not speaking definitively. Someone here said the ninja's skill were more based in stealth and the art of deception and or misdirection. That would be true. However this means that the ninja had to be a very strategic thinker, and what is a swordsman, except a strategist. Dead is dea, and whether by a sword or a rusty caltrop or throwing star several days later, I suppose you could say the proof is in the pudding.
As to the issue of specifically asking which "art' was better insofar as swordsmanship, well, Kenjitsu of course, that is what it taught. The amount of things you learned studying Ninjitsu we to numerous for me to go into here. however, the ninja was a man, or woman, of extreme self discipline, no question, but as a swordsman, well, generally speaking a noble samurai who had studied just the blade or the spear all his life is going to win in a one on one conflict. Again, this is just generalizations, and does not speak of specific samurai or ninja, but only to the majority, not all.
I hope that my views are more welcome then the poor fellow who posed the question that began this thread. Take care all.

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#114763 - 03/07/05 08:54 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by walltiger:
a quick quote from the webpage

Q : Where can I get a ninja sword?
A : Ninja swords are Hollywood fictions. There is no historical evidence that ninja used swords any different from those used by samurai or anyone else.

as it says closer

that ninja used swords any different from those used by samurai or anyone else.

since you have seen swrods in museums and so forth you should also know that there are as many different sword types as there are sword makers of the time. and also no two swords are alike as i have mentioned in another thread.

as i have said i have seen swords that are straitish to extremely curved. this comes from different styles of sword making as well as the swordmakers preference.

all you did was substanciate my point, thank you

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]

Hmm, this is not necessarily true. The ninja did often carry a much shorter sword. The reason for this was that, very often, he had to be able to fit into very tight quarters, and a longer weapon would get in the way. Also, being an assassin, often times it would be indoors where he was most likely to be discovered. When indoors a shorter weapon is preferable to a longer one. However, the straight Katana was not the province of only the ninja, and was used by many Samurai as well. True the curved blade was predominant, but the straight katana was not the singular blade of the Ninja. The Ninja favored it because, well, a curved blade takes up more space, nothing more, it was easier to carry and hide n their persons, it was all a mater of practicality, it's slightly shorter length and the choosing of a straight blade. I like this what I have read on this forum, having more of a mix of arts, not just swordwork, seems to equate to somewhat less ego, which is good. Take care all [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#114764 - 03/07/05 09:00 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:
Wall

Hate to break it to you pal, you could not be more wrong.

As mentioned MANY times. Many samurai were also practicing ninja.

So what your asking is who would be a better swordsman?

A samurai or a samurai?

Now do you see why the question is bollocks

Even a casual read of Japanese history will show that samurai pretty much did whatever was needed to kill a foe.
The history is full of examples of lies, treachery and murder.

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 02-21-2005).]
[/QUOTE]

Hmm, I do not know that this is accurate. A samurai who became Ronin or some such could take up a career as an assassin, but does this make him a ninja?

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#114765 - 03/07/05 09:06 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by haibara_iaido:
Sorry everyone for posting my reply about jukiden. I meant to type Jikiden.

I would like to say something directly to Charles Maham. I have been living in Japan for over 12 years and have been practice aikido and iaido for for over 10 of those. The information that I gave is directly from the test given to those who wish to take their third fourth or fifth black belt in Iaido.

So in regards to this statement about sayano uchi that I gave, well it is exactly as it stands. If you wish to question this, by all means please do so. Here, I will give you a listing of my source. Just look at the third name from the list.
http://www.hidecnet.ne.jp/~noriha/ibadoren/zen.htm
http://www.kendorenmei-shizuoka-pref.com/deisyu568.htm

羽賀忠利 My teacher

居合道範士八段

(財)全日本剣道道場連盟副会長

静岡県警察名誉師範

武講同窓会会長

養心剣友会会長

Haga Sensei also had an older brother who unfortantely past away some time ago. His brother taught Takakura Ken iaido and Kendo. You can also check that out in the subscription od Kendo Nihon http://www.skijournal.co.jp/kendo/book/0308/main.html


He is my teacher here in shizuoka. I would like to know who yours is. Maybe some American guy named john? Let me say that I would, without hesitation, take my teachers word over yours. I don't think 3 dan even qualifies you to lecture someone who holds two ranks above you.

But without becoming bitter. I recommend yu just check for yourself. Or better yet, just get you chibby butt out of clear water, come to Japan to take your 4th dan test. Have you ever even been in Japan?


So before you question other peoples knowledge and accuse them of getting info from the web. be very sure you know what you are talking about.

For those of your who practice Budo, I wish you all the success. for those of you who like to read about budo and prance around thinking you know what you are talking about, that would be you grasshopper, pick up your shinken or in your case maybe a mogito and just praktice. Stop trying to be a guru.

Chareles-居合道確り勉強をしなさい!!
[/QUOTE]

I do not mean to give offense, but using your rank, something that is kinda arbitrary and has little if any meaning, to back up your assertions, be them right or wrong, is not very credible. That you took a written test to advance in some rank is something I find, well, strange. If your assertions are truth and have merit you need not back them up by slipping in your pedigree.

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#114766 - 03/07/05 09:10 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Sword

Sorry, but you need to read thu the entire thread.

Picking a post out of context simply does not fly.
My post was addressed to a SPECIFIC person and was a response to a SPECIFIC post.
Remove the context and you miss the point.

Since you missed it--I'll say it again.

MANY "SAMURAI" WERE NINJA.

"NINJUTSU" WAS AN ART--LIKE MANY OTHERS--THAT WERE PRACTICED BY MANY "SAMURAI."

SO SOME "SAMURAI" WERE NIJA AND SOME NINJA WERE "SAMURAI"

Sorry for "yelling" but this topic is weeks old and folks still are not getting it.
People have taken the time to post good information which folks seem to be ignoring.

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#114767 - 03/07/05 09:14 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Assassin750:
Sorry but now I'm a little curious if Japanese swordsmen or Korean swordsmen are better.[/QUOTE]

Technique has little to do with it I think. It is not the style but the swordsman, so looking at the style only gives you an idea about how good it is if the swordsman using it is any good to begin with. If not, your going to see it as inferior, while someone else may have seen someone proficient, who focused more on mental and spiritual attitudes, and concluded that it was superior. It's all quite relative to the practioner in uestion really, although as far as technique goes, if done properly, there are indeed superior techniques, but thats again, dependent upon the practioner, now isn't it.
Truth be told, if you're actually looking for a good technique to study, just fine out what a school actually does. Are there lots of different techniqes, or are things kept simple. The simpler the better in sword work, and if you hear people talking about the complexity of their moves and this move overcoming that, your usually best off going somewhere else. Again though, they could just be bad examples of a very good style, which further cements my point that, in the end, the validity of a style rests solely in the hands of it's practioners, not within itself.

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#114768 - 03/08/05 10:13 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Nin (its use is relatively new) is just an alternative reading of the character Shinobi. It`s difficult to say, when exactly use of the term Ninja became common.Some think that maybe it came in use with the Westerners, for whom the spelling of Ninja was easier than that of Shinobi.

cxt,posted 03-07-2005 10:10 AM

...MANY SAMURAI WERE NINJA.
NINJUTSU WAS AN ART--LIKE MANY OTHERS--THAT WERE PRACTICED BY MANY SAMURAI.
SO SOME SAMURAI WERE NIJA AND SOME NINJA WERE SAMURAI. ...

In my opinion, Ninjutsu wasn`t just an Art at that time and a Samurai that practiced (a part) of the Systems of Ninjutsu was not automatically a Ninja or Shinobi no mono.

Nevertheless it`s absolutely right that a ninja could be also member of the Samurai class and vice versa.

Many Ninja clans were based on a hierarchical form which was separarated in a higher (Jonin), middle (Chunin) and sublevel class (Genin). The techniques were kept secret and only shown to members of the clan - just just the way it within the Samurai clans.

I have to admit that in contrary to what I just wrote, there are Samurai Ryu-ha that do teach Ninjutsu, too (but just as a small part of their many techniques).

Furthermore it`s important to know that it has a long history, that many japanese heroes who at some time in their careers led a mysterious life have been associated with Ninjutsu. Minamoto Yoshitsune (1159-89) and Kusunoki Masashige (1294-1330) are the ones most often mentioned, to the extent that they are even credited with the foundation of 2 new Ninja-ryu (Yoshitsune-ryu & Kusunoki-ryu).

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#114769 - 03/08/05 10:26 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:

MANY "SAMURAI" WERE NINJA.

"NINJUTSU" WAS AN ART--LIKE MANY OTHERS--THAT WERE PRACTICED BY MANY "SAMURAI."

SO SOME "SAMURAI" WERE NIJA AND SOME NINJA WERE "SAMURAI"
[/QUOTE]

Absolutely! E.g.: Check out the systems encompassed by the curriculum of the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shitno Ryu, among the oldest of the extant Kenjutsu systems http://www.koryubooks.com/guide/katorishinto.html. I don't doubt the same is true for other ryu.



[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 03-08-2005).]

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#114770 - 03/08/05 10:34 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Wilf

Was not suggesting that it was automatic--was suggesting the question itself:

"Better swordsmen? The ninja or the samurai?

Tended to be self-negating as there was quite a bit of overlap between "samurai" and "ninja."

Not really an "either/or" question.

Since at least some were "both" samurai AND ninja.



[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 03-08-2005).]

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#114771 - 03/08/05 03:14 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by judokater:
I think that the samurai is the better swordsman, cuz ninja's jused steath an decepion as there main weapon.
ninja's didn's get in to fights verry often(they spreaded some powder in there opponent's face and flet).


[This message has been edited by judokater (edited 02-15-2005).]
[/QUOTE]

Having said that, ninja train with samuri weapons, for they must be profficient with all weapons they must encounter. I am on the side of the ninja (i have to be, i study ninjitsu)

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#114772 - 03/08/05 08:52 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
What system of ninjutsu do you study?

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#114773 - 03/09/05 07:30 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


cxt,posted 03-08-2005 11:34 AM
"...Was not suggesting that it was automatic...
Not really an "either/or" question. Since at least some were "both" samurai AND ninja."

In this I agree absolutely.

I posted all my answers after I`d reduced the question (to "only Samurai" vs "only Ninja"), because otherwise I could not have posted an answer. As you said: there`s no answer to a question like who is better in a fight between a Samurai-Ninja vs a Samurai-Ninja.
.
.

I can`t actually tell anybody of you who`s the better swordsman - but maybe there`s one more thing we could think about:
Both, Ninja and Samurai were trained in weaponry with many different weapons. Depending on time and circumstances some Samurai-Ryuha were specialising on different weapons - not always the sword.
Examples:

-Kajima, Hioki, Soken = archery
(The bow was used as main weapon before use
of the sword became common)

-Juki, Shibukawa, Yoshin = close combat

-Araki, Isshin, Toda = chained weapons


Another thing is:
If a Ninja had to perform a "normal" fight against a Samurai who was well trained in using his Katana - whose style of fighting was probably more known to the public?
As I see it, at least to a certain degree the Ninja would know how a Katana was normally used by a Samurai.
The Samurai saw a person with a sword -maybe with a different kind- not knowing how such a sword would be used against himself (at least by a Ninja).
We are often told (can only speak for myself), we should not do boxing with a boxer, grapple with a judoka or a ringer... .
I think a Ninja would try to use the sword in a way very different way from what the Samurai would expect him to.
Sun Tsu (Sun Tsi...) wrote that if one knows his enemy and himself, in hundred battles/fights he will never loose.

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#114774 - 03/09/05 07:58 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
What makes you think the techniques of the Samurai were common knowledge? They aren't common knowledge now and todays society is a lot more open than things used to be. Lives aren't on the line anymore.

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#114775 - 03/09/05 01:00 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


(to Charles Mahan, who posted 03-09-2005 08:58 AM)

A Samurai can`t do swordfencing on battlefield or on other occasions and expect that absolutely nothing of his style is revealed.
That`s why I wrote "to a certain degree".

Nevertheless even in older times it was possible to train in different Dojo - if one was allowed to.
There were a lot of Samurai exploring the japanese islands for one reason or another, and if one knew or got to know someone who trained at a certain Dojo it could be that he was allowed to take lessons there,too. How far he was then involved into the techniques and secrets of this Ryu was depending on whom he knew, how trustworthy he himself seemed to be etc.

Sometimes Dojo had an interest on exchanging thoughts and techniques with such individuals, because these warriors were often very skilled persons.Many Ryu vanished because they were to fixed on their own style and denying everything else there was - maybe the best student in such a dojo could beat everyone in his own dojo but was relatively easily beaten by a Samurai on his Musha-Shugyo (a pilgrimage often performed to get religious insight and to become an even more highly skilled Warrior).

Furthermore even within a single Ryu its secrets (the Menkyo Kaiden) were transmitted only to very few people, who kept the monopoly of these secrets.
In the preface of the "Heiho Kadensho" (consists of 3 volumes) Yagyu Munenori writes:

"The contents of these 3 volumes must not be released outside this family;however,this does not mean that our way has to be completely concealed. ..."

The term family is not as fixed as we would see it today, it includes all pupils for example.
There were normally 3 different levels of secrets in the Ryu, expressed by the term of Shuhari (chinese characters):

1.Kirikami - basis, like for example postures and the preparation of the mind
(shu = to keep, observe)

2.Mokuroku - depending on a certain insight of the pupil
(ha = to break)

3.Menkyo Kaiden - highest level, sometimes followed by forming one`s own Ryu
(ri = to depart)

Many of the higher level secrets were more of an esoteric or philosophical nature than just weaponry.
At the shogun`s court tournaments were held between different ryu - a good chance to study the swordmanship of the samurai.

(this passage has nothing to do with what you wrote: )
Someone who has been given Menkyo Kaiden didn`t have to become the next generation Soke (grandmaster) of the Ryu. Such a person was simply officially acknowledged to know everything about the Ryuエs secrets and could for example build up a new branch of the Ryu. Therefore if names are still kept very similar, we often wonder why apparently there are sometimes more Soke of the same Ryu at same time in existence, while in reality they are Soke of related but nevertheless different Ryu.





[This message has been edited by Wilf (edited 03-09-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Wilf (edited 03-09-2005).]

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#114776 - 03/09/05 01:12 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Wilf

But then how can we be sure that the "ninja" tech were not known as well?

Possible that the samurai has faced "ninja" before?

We know that some of the same clans tha suffered the most at the hands of Tokagawa, also had members that supported hin to the fullest.

Plus given that "ninjutsu" is also an art with many, many skills involved.

Not really possible that a ninja could be an expert in them all, there has to SOMETHING that he/she would be less skilled at.

Still think its "tail chaser" of a question.

Suppose its fun to kick around, but there are WAY to many "what if's" to answer.

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#114777 - 03/09/05 01:35 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


mmmmh Charles Mahan.... cxt....
I think laf7773 is still missing.

Okay to be serious again:
"...But then how can we be sure that the "ninja" tech were not known as well?..."
I think that we really canエt be sure of that.

"...Not really possible that a ninja could be an expert in them all, there has to SOMETHING that he/she would be less skilled at. ..."
I totally agree, but it`s the same with the Samurai.

"...Still think its "tail chaser" of a question. ..."
Sorry for my poor english, if I got you right, this is a complaint that I don`t really answer the question and as I mentioned a little earlier (posted 03-09-2005 08:30 AM) I just didn`t because I can`t.

Though I can`t answer the question, I just wanted to show possible reasons why the Ninja even in a sword vs sword combat wouldn`t have to be the looser right from the start.
If I got you right in another point to, I agree with you - the question of who`s the better swordsman lacks itself.

[This message has been edited by Wilf (edited 03-09-2005).]

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#114778 - 03/09/05 11:10 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
I wasn't aware i was missing. I've know where i was all day.

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#114779 - 03/10/05 08:09 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Wilf

NO, I have NO "complaint" about you or any or any of your posts.

They seem well informed and detailed.

My ire is directed towrad the orignal question/poster.

A "tail chase" question is one that by its very nature CAN'T be answered.

Either because the question is inherently contradictory or there are an impossible number of varibles to account for.

So folks end up going "around and around and around" like a dog chasing his tail on it.

Again, no problem with you at all!!!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 03-10-2005).]

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#114780 - 03/10/05 10:42 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


cxt

I just didn`t get you right. The posting was entitled "Wilf" and so I didn`t see that your last sentence wasn`t meant for me.

(about my posting of "mmmmh Charles Mahan.... cxt.... I think laf7773 is still missing. ..." : )
This shows a certain kind of respect for your persons. As I could see, the 3 of you are often doing postings here and there and correcting some really "strange" thoughts and discussions. Therefore I wondered when laf 3337 would add again a few sentences to this thread.

Oh, I forgot something: When I have to get to close into the details, I do look in my books,too.
I just think that it`s important not to believe everything (sometimes even if it`s the thing most often repeated) and to judge very well what could be right and what absolutely can`t be.
Someday a person asked if "we" could really jump up right from the ground up onto a height of 5-6 meters -really strange such thoughts, aren`t they?
How to judge if a book is good is not always that easy because even within (all in all) well worked out books there are often some misleading or just false "truths" written. It`s like with the 3 guys that I mentioned above: they differ to a certain degree in what they might think and know -depending on their own history and the sources they could use themselves. Nevertheless one can still say that all in all they won`t tell you things that you know aren`t true just before they even have spoken them out aloud.

Thanks to everyone for reading and listening to an relatively unexperienced person,
Greetings Wilf

[This message has been edited by Wilf (edited 03-10-2005).]

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#114781 - 03/10/05 12:54 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi everyone!
My knowledge of the history of ninjutsu is rather limited (er, just as anyone else, now that I come to think about it) but a few things that have been said here seem to contradict it and I'd like some further precisions, if anyone can provide them... Someone said that ninja being assassins was mostly legend. Yet, as far as I know, Oda Nobunaga, after having most ninja of the Iga province slaughtered, was assassinated by a ninja sent by one of the rare survivors, the famous Hatori Hanzo (other sources saying Hatori killed Oda himself). I also believe that Hatori Hanzo, afterwards, faithfully served Tokugawa Ieyasu and, being an experienced ninja himself, succeeded in stopping many assassination attempts by ninja sent by rival daimyo seeking to make shogun instead of Tokugawa (well, at least that's what the history books say). So, if there's anyone here who has a better knowledge of Japanese history than my own (there should be, for mine isn't too deep really), are the books merely lying, or are they just "romanticizing" the story a bit, or are these facts true but simply not representative of the usual activities of the ninja?

There are a few other statements here that puzzle me, but I'm too lazy to deal with them right now, they'll have to wait a bit longer... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#114782 - 03/10/05 02:10 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
I'm not a historian either, but the idea that Oda Nobunaga was assasinated is a controversial idea at best. Took me 3 minutes with google to turn this up:
http://www.samurai-archives.com/nobunaga.html#8

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#114783 - 03/10/05 11:38 PM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
This is where people tend to make a mistake regarding the history of ninjutsu. Just like anything else you can't lump them into one category. You can't say they were assassins. You can't say they were used for "recon" purposes. You can't say they were for any one purpose. There has been some loose comparison to modern special forces. This in a sense is true. There were several types of employment for "ninja". Everything from assassination to recon to a "secret service" type of body guard/security. The did practice specialty skills that aided them in these various tasks but not all were employable for every type of job. Just like today痴 forces they may have had various "grouping" or specialties but also had general knowledge of each field. They have also been said to have been samurai. This is possible as well. Keeping in mind that they were employed as protection and in a sense worked in conjunction with samurai it would make sense that these skills could very well have been taught to samurai and vise versa. Similar to cross training with other military forces.

The fact is unless someone unearths some sort of documentation, that can be authenticated, that goes into more detail as to how they were employed we will only be able to piece things together with what little facts we have mixed with myth. Unfortunately Hollywood and the rash of ninja fakes aren't helping any.

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