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#114761 - 03/07/05 08:16 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
Simon

Ah, a food critic.

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#114762 - 03/07/05 08:48 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Assassin750:
Dear fellow swordsmens, is a ninja or a samurai a better swordsmen?[/QUOTE]

I think it would have ben more accurate to as "Which art was better for swordsmanship, Ninjitsu, or some school of Kenjitsu" of which their were many.
I am new here so I would like to say hello. Now, lets not be to hard on this person, I read some negative remarks and insults. Ignorance is not a crime, unless it is embraced, and I do not think this person is embracing it, but merely does not know any better.
Now, from my point of view, and I have been asked this many time, Samurai were more specialized in the sword then someone who studied ninjitus. The Ninja was a jack of all trades sort, in a general sense, I am not speaking definitively. Someone here said the ninja's skill were more based in stealth and the art of deception and or misdirection. That would be true. However this means that the ninja had to be a very strategic thinker, and what is a swordsman, except a strategist. Dead is dea, and whether by a sword or a rusty caltrop or throwing star several days later, I suppose you could say the proof is in the pudding.
As to the issue of specifically asking which "art' was better insofar as swordsmanship, well, Kenjitsu of course, that is what it taught. The amount of things you learned studying Ninjitsu we to numerous for me to go into here. however, the ninja was a man, or woman, of extreme self discipline, no question, but as a swordsman, well, generally speaking a noble samurai who had studied just the blade or the spear all his life is going to win in a one on one conflict. Again, this is just generalizations, and does not speak of specific samurai or ninja, but only to the majority, not all.
I hope that my views are more welcome then the poor fellow who posed the question that began this thread. Take care all.

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#114763 - 03/07/05 08:54 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by walltiger:
a quick quote from the webpage

Q : Where can I get a ninja sword?
A : Ninja swords are Hollywood fictions. There is no historical evidence that ninja used swords any different from those used by samurai or anyone else.

as it says closer

that ninja used swords any different from those used by samurai or anyone else.

since you have seen swrods in museums and so forth you should also know that there are as many different sword types as there are sword makers of the time. and also no two swords are alike as i have mentioned in another thread.

as i have said i have seen swords that are straitish to extremely curved. this comes from different styles of sword making as well as the swordmakers preference.

all you did was substanciate my point, thank you

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]

Hmm, this is not necessarily true. The ninja did often carry a much shorter sword. The reason for this was that, very often, he had to be able to fit into very tight quarters, and a longer weapon would get in the way. Also, being an assassin, often times it would be indoors where he was most likely to be discovered. When indoors a shorter weapon is preferable to a longer one. However, the straight Katana was not the province of only the ninja, and was used by many Samurai as well. True the curved blade was predominant, but the straight katana was not the singular blade of the Ninja. The Ninja favored it because, well, a curved blade takes up more space, nothing more, it was easier to carry and hide n their persons, it was all a mater of practicality, it's slightly shorter length and the choosing of a straight blade. I like this what I have read on this forum, having more of a mix of arts, not just swordwork, seems to equate to somewhat less ego, which is good. Take care all [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#114764 - 03/07/05 09:00 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:
Wall

Hate to break it to you pal, you could not be more wrong.

As mentioned MANY times. Many samurai were also practicing ninja.

So what your asking is who would be a better swordsman?

A samurai or a samurai?

Now do you see why the question is bollocks

Even a casual read of Japanese history will show that samurai pretty much did whatever was needed to kill a foe.
The history is full of examples of lies, treachery and murder.

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 02-21-2005).]
[/QUOTE]

Hmm, I do not know that this is accurate. A samurai who became Ronin or some such could take up a career as an assassin, but does this make him a ninja?

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#114765 - 03/07/05 09:06 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by haibara_iaido:
Sorry everyone for posting my reply about jukiden. I meant to type Jikiden.

I would like to say something directly to Charles Maham. I have been living in Japan for over 12 years and have been practice aikido and iaido for for over 10 of those. The information that I gave is directly from the test given to those who wish to take their third fourth or fifth black belt in Iaido.

So in regards to this statement about sayano uchi that I gave, well it is exactly as it stands. If you wish to question this, by all means please do so. Here, I will give you a listing of my source. Just look at the third name from the list.
http://www.hidecnet.ne.jp/~noriha/ibadoren/zen.htm
http://www.kendorenmei-shizuoka-pref.com/deisyu568.htm

Hꒉ My teacher

͎mi

()S{A

Éx@_t

u

{SF

Haga Sensei also had an older brother who unfortantely past away some time ago. His brother taught Takakura Ken iaido and Kendo. You can also check that out in the subscription od Kendo Nihon http://www.skijournal.co.jp/kendo/book/0308/main.html


He is my teacher here in shizuoka. I would like to know who yours is. Maybe some American guy named john? Let me say that I would, without hesitation, take my teachers word over yours. I don't think 3 dan even qualifies you to lecture someone who holds two ranks above you.

But without becoming bitter. I recommend yu just check for yourself. Or better yet, just get you chibby butt out of clear water, come to Japan to take your 4th dan test. Have you ever even been in Japan?


So before you question other peoples knowledge and accuse them of getting info from the web. be very sure you know what you are talking about.

For those of your who practice Budo, I wish you all the success. for those of you who like to read about budo and prance around thinking you know what you are talking about, that would be you grasshopper, pick up your shinken or in your case maybe a mogito and just praktice. Stop trying to be a guru.

Chareles-m׋ȂII
[/QUOTE]

I do not mean to give offense, but using your rank, something that is kinda arbitrary and has little if any meaning, to back up your assertions, be them right or wrong, is not very credible. That you took a written test to advance in some rank is something I find, well, strange. If your assertions are truth and have merit you need not back them up by slipping in your pedigree.

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#114766 - 03/07/05 09:10 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
Sword

Sorry, but you need to read thu the entire thread.

Picking a post out of context simply does not fly.
My post was addressed to a SPECIFIC person and was a response to a SPECIFIC post.
Remove the context and you miss the point.

Since you missed it--I'll say it again.

MANY "SAMURAI" WERE NINJA.

"NINJUTSU" WAS AN ART--LIKE MANY OTHERS--THAT WERE PRACTICED BY MANY "SAMURAI."

SO SOME "SAMURAI" WERE NIJA AND SOME NINJA WERE "SAMURAI"

Sorry for "yelling" but this topic is weeks old and folks still are not getting it.
People have taken the time to post good information which folks seem to be ignoring.

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#114767 - 03/07/05 09:14 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Assassin750:
Sorry but now I'm a little curious if Japanese swordsmen or Korean swordsmen are better.[/QUOTE]

Technique has little to do with it I think. It is not the style but the swordsman, so looking at the style only gives you an idea about how good it is if the swordsman using it is any good to begin with. If not, your going to see it as inferior, while someone else may have seen someone proficient, who focused more on mental and spiritual attitudes, and concluded that it was superior. It's all quite relative to the practioner in uestion really, although as far as technique goes, if done properly, there are indeed superior techniques, but thats again, dependent upon the practioner, now isn't it.
Truth be told, if you're actually looking for a good technique to study, just fine out what a school actually does. Are there lots of different techniqes, or are things kept simple. The simpler the better in sword work, and if you hear people talking about the complexity of their moves and this move overcoming that, your usually best off going somewhere else. Again though, they could just be bad examples of a very good style, which further cements my point that, in the end, the validity of a style rests solely in the hands of it's practioners, not within itself.

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#114768 - 03/08/05 10:13 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Nin (its use is relatively new) is just an alternative reading of the character Shinobi. It`s difficult to say, when exactly use of the term Ninja became common.Some think that maybe it came in use with the Westerners, for whom the spelling of Ninja was easier than that of Shinobi.

cxt,posted 03-07-2005 10:10 AM

...MANY SAMURAI WERE NINJA.
NINJUTSU WAS AN ART--LIKE MANY OTHERS--THAT WERE PRACTICED BY MANY SAMURAI.
SO SOME SAMURAI WERE NIJA AND SOME NINJA WERE SAMURAI. ...

In my opinion, Ninjutsu wasn`t just an Art at that time and a Samurai that practiced (a part) of the Systems of Ninjutsu was not automatically a Ninja or Shinobi no mono.

Nevertheless it`s absolutely right that a ninja could be also member of the Samurai class and vice versa.

Many Ninja clans were based on a hierarchical form which was separarated in a higher (Jonin), middle (Chunin) and sublevel class (Genin). The techniques were kept secret and only shown to members of the clan - just just the way it within the Samurai clans.

I have to admit that in contrary to what I just wrote, there are Samurai Ryu-ha that do teach Ninjutsu, too (but just as a small part of their many techniques).

Furthermore it`s important to know that it has a long history, that many japanese heroes who at some time in their careers led a mysterious life have been associated with Ninjutsu. Minamoto Yoshitsune (1159-89) and Kusunoki Masashige (1294-1330) are the ones most often mentioned, to the extent that they are even credited with the foundation of 2 new Ninja-ryu (Yoshitsune-ryu & Kusunoki-ryu).

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#114769 - 03/08/05 10:26 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1736
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:

MANY "SAMURAI" WERE NINJA.

"NINJUTSU" WAS AN ART--LIKE MANY OTHERS--THAT WERE PRACTICED BY MANY "SAMURAI."

SO SOME "SAMURAI" WERE NIJA AND SOME NINJA WERE "SAMURAI"
[/QUOTE]

Absolutely! E.g.: Check out the systems encompassed by the curriculum of the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shitno Ryu, among the oldest of the extant Kenjutsu systems http://www.koryubooks.com/guide/katorishinto.html. I don't doubt the same is true for other ryu.



[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 03-08-2005).]

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#114770 - 03/08/05 10:34 AM Re: Better Swordsmen? The Ninja or Samurai?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
Wilf

Was not suggesting that it was automatic--was suggesting the question itself:

"Better swordsmen? The ninja or the samurai?

Tended to be self-negating as there was quite a bit of overlap between "samurai" and "ninja."

Not really an "either/or" question.

Since at least some were "both" samurai AND ninja.



[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 03-08-2005).]

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