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#114364 - 01/21/05 05:34 AM Sakabatou - is it possible?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I imagine a lot of people will come in here ready to kick my ass for the subject title, lol. Truth is, yes, I am a big fan of Rurouni Kenshin, yes I wanna be like him, but I know it's all fiction (I wanna be like a lot of movie heroes, what can I say? The quiet cool, awesome abilities, doesn't everyone?). Anyway, I have seen on a site or two a sakabatou for sale, and I've seen a guy selling them on ebay, and it all seems kosher. My question is, fair enough, for a display sword I imagine it wouldn't make much difference if it was razor sharp and durable, etc. But I'm wondering if it's impossible to make one, or has it just not been done yet?

People have said that the sakabatou is pure fiction.. I was just thinking why *shrugs* Don't flame me, I'm just thinking out loud, really, and wondering.

Dan

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#114365 - 01/21/05 08:20 AM Re: Sakabatou - is it possible?
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Well they are pure fiction. They never existed historically. But where there are fanboys with money, someone will find a way to make a collectible. That's what they are, memorobillia and nothing more.

As for why they were never made... swords are made to kill people. That's what they do. If you wanted to have a non-lethal duel, you pick up a bokuto. There are plenty of other good reasons. The inside of the curve of the blade is the weakest part. That's the reason the edge is usually on the outside of the curve which is considerably stronger.

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#114366 - 01/21/05 09:16 AM Re: Sakabatou - is it possible?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
If you wanted "not" to kill some poor sap.

Then the best thing to do was JUST TURN YOUR FREAKING BLADE AROUND.

If you have a katana, pretty simple to just use the otherside--that would make it an automatic "reverse" blade sword.

No need to have a blade specially constucted at all.

Or as Charles says above--just use a boken.

Sheer fantasy.

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#114367 - 01/21/05 09:24 PM Re: Sakabatou - is it possible?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Reading this thread gave me a thought. Would it be safe to wield a double edged katana-shaped weapon, or even one with a short bastard edge? Would it even give an advantage?

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#114368 - 01/22/05 11:11 PM Re: Sakabatou - is it possible?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Here is the problem with the reverse edge katana. The sori (curve) occures during quenching. During quenching the blade is coated with clay, more clay on the spine of the blade and less on the blade edge. This causes these sections of the blade to cool at a different rate. The blade edge cools much faster causing the metal to change from from austentite to martinsite making for a harder material able to hold an edge. When this happens the material expands. Since the spine of the blade cools much slower and crystalizes into pearlite, a softer material not suitable for holding an edge. When this happens the spine of the blade looses it's expansion caused by the heat and contracts. The result of the edge expansion and the spine contracting is the sori or curve of the blade. With this in mind you cannot sharpen the spine of the blade because it will not hold an edge suitable for cutting. At the same time the edge of the blade would be too hard to support the blade in combat.

While you can shape the blade with more of a curve in the opposite direction in hopes that quenching will not straighten the blade and leave a sori with the harder steel on the opposite side, you have a much higher risk of warping the blade than coming out with anything worth using.

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#114369 - 01/23/05 01:16 AM Re: Sakabatou - is it possible?
Anonymous
Unregistered


The only functional reverse sori katana that I know of that isn't a poorly made wallhanger or novelty iaito is a sword Rick Barrett made, how he did it, I'd like to know. It appears to be differentially hardened and everything.
http://www.barrettcustomknives.com/nihonto/reverse.htm

All a quote from Sword Forum International.

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#114370 - 01/23/05 01:28 AM Re: Sakabatou - is it possible?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
I didn't say it was impossible. I just think itís way too much work for something so impractical.

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#114371 - 01/23/05 02:03 AM Re: Sakabatou - is it possible?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Nice curve on that one, Skye. And Iaf, thank you - that was damn near exactly what I wanted :-) Being interested in the metallurgy side of swordmaking as well, I found that very interesting to read (even if I can't remember a word of it). lol. Thanks a lot. All of you, for your info.

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#114372 - 01/24/05 06:54 PM Re: Sakabatou - is it possible?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Laf, can't you simply use a different method of tempering? Say you wanted to make a double edged katana (oxymoron, I know, but work with me). You wouldn't go with a differential temper because you need it hard on both sides. The same could be done for a reverse blade, just an even temper.

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#114373 - 01/24/05 11:27 PM Re: Sakabatou - is it possible?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Benjamin1986:
Laf, can't you simply use a different method of tempering? Say you wanted to make a double edged katana (oxymoron, I know, but work with me). You wouldn't go with a differential temper because you need it hard on both sides. The same could be done for a reverse blade, just an even temper.[/QUOTE]

Theoretically possible. You would have to shape the blade to the desired sori before tempering and then treat both the ha and the mune (is it still feasible to call the inside of the curve "mune" if it is sharpened?) as the ha would normally be tempered. If the clay was thinned out evenly both sides, the sori should stay the same. I imagine this would lock-in some very serious stresses within the axis of the blade so some sort of post heat treatment would be necessary. Either peening or bead blasting may be options here... That is, if the sharpened edges survived the tempering without cracking due to the longitudinal tension set up with the shrinkage.

[This message has been edited by Mushin Ryu (edited 01-25-2005).]

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