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#113574 - 12/19/04 12:13 AM Re: Usage of inverted grip on a Katana
Anonymous
Unregistered


Akedes, the one who declares himself a blademaster is the one who least deserves the title. You are always a student and will never be as good today as you can be tomorrow. Once you consider yourself an expert, you hinder your learning and reduce your potential tremendously.

Just the musings of a part time philosopher.

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#113575 - 12/19/04 09:48 AM Re: Usage of inverted grip on a Katana
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hello. I am not exactly qualified to make any real statements about the inverted grip style (14 year old and avid fan of the much-flamed Rouroni Kenshin TV show), but if you want to see some good action with the inverted style, watch the film Equilibrium. It came out in 2003 but for some reason it ws only released in select cities and the DVD's were never advertised so nobody knew about it. Christian Bale is in number of sword action sequences where he uses his katan inverted.

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#113576 - 12/19/04 11:11 PM Re: Usage of inverted grip on a Katana
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Benjamin1986:
Akedes, the one who declares himself a blademaster is the one who least deserves the title. You are always a student and will never be as good today as you can be tomorrow. Once you consider yourself an expert, you hinder your learning and reduce your potential tremendously.

Just the musings of a part time philosopher.
[/QUOTE]


Forgive me, I was just being sarcastic [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
But you add excellent advice to my new training. I will always aspire to be better, and never consider myself complete. It's sort of hard for me to understand completely any terms used in sword art training to describe your skill level. In forms of karate, kung fu, tae kwon do, etc., there are different belt levels. Being black belt doesn't mean you're an expert at the art, but it certainly gives you more experience over a white or yellow belt.

That, to me, is what makes iaido and kenjutsu so exciting. It's sort of like reading through a mystery book as you battle or spar your opponent. They bear no distinguishing marks to their skill level and experience, this leaves both parties, wondering, and guessing. Leaving the battle more spur of the moment and dictates quick strategic decision making when delivering and countering moves.

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#113577 - 12/20/04 12:48 AM Re: Usage of inverted grip on a Katana
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
[QUOTE]Originally posted by d00m4th0n:
Hello. I am not exactly qualified to make any real statements about the inverted grip style (14 year old and avid fan of the much-flamed Rouroni Kenshin TV show), but if you want to see some good action with the inverted style, watch the film Equilibrium. It came out in 2003 but for some reason it ws only released in select cities and the DVD's were never advertised so nobody knew about it. Christian Bale is in number of sword action sequences where he uses his katan inverted.[/QUOTE]

I've seen it. My understanding was it was released straight to video. The reason being it was a terrible movie. Gun kata? Movies like this make me cringe.

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#113578 - 12/20/04 08:49 AM Re: Usage of inverted grip on a Katana
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Mr. Roman,

You will have to forgive me. There are a lot of kooks online and what you say flies in the face of conventional wisdom, so I'm gonna need more clairification.

As I see it the only styles that you have studied which have any bearing on this discussion are the Daito Ryu, Mugai Ryu, and Yagyu Shinkage Ryu. None of your hand to hand work really has any bearing on a koryu JSA discussion. I'm glad you've had such a full training career, but it simply isn't relevant to the topic at hand.

As to the training you have had in Sword Arts I'd like a few more specifics. Who did you train in with in Mugai Ryu, for how long, and what rank did you achieve, and out of curiosity why did you leave the Ryu-ha? Same questions for Yagyu Shinkage Ryu and Daito Ryu. With who, for how long, what rank, and why leave?

I ask again, because I still have no feeling for your experience with real JSA. You mentioned having studied it, but I studied fencing too before coming to Iai. Does that make me qualified to comment on fencing? Not really. I only studied it for a couple of weeks at a university fencing club before deciding it wasn't for me.

I would advise anyone who reads this thread not to view any of us as "authorities" on these topics. I've trained with folks who would have a valid claim to authority, but they are very few and very far between. Only a handful of authorities are online, and none to my knowledge are on this forum. Mostly they chime in on rare occasions over at http://www.e-budo.com, http://www.swordforum.com, or the iaido-l mailing list.

I will address a couple of your points below.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by whitedragon_48:
Given my background in Kenpo (a style that aproaches the Budo scientifically) I decided to apply the same principles to my sword studies. That means I started to ask "WHY" a lot to my instructors.[/QUOTE]
This is certainly an nontraditional approach. It approaches things from a western point of view, rather than a Japanese point of view. Understanding why is not necessarily beneficial to training. Understanding why something is the way it is can sometimes trigger a little piece of your brain to say, "Ah! I understand I've got it now! Now what else can I work on." At that point you stop focusing on the point that before you asked the question, you not only couldn't understand but couldn't replicate either. Now you think you've got it you won't be working on it anymore and the end result is understanding at a, probably, superficial level but with no capability to perform to back it up. 99% of learning JSA is doing it. It isn't a cerebral activity as much as it is a physical activity. There are theories of movement to know and understand, but they aren't as important to know as it is important to be able to do them. Point is, Asking "why" doesn't make you a better student necessarily.

[QUOTE]

Mr. Mahan, if memory serves me right from the Mugai Ryu, I might be wrong, but the way the Ryu inverts the grip takes a LOOONG time. If that is true, then you are 100% right.

[/QUOTE]
I'd say so. As I understand it they way they invert their grip is to stand up straight with the sword in the saya in their left side. Then they sit down in Seiza and place the sword on their right side edge out. Then they put both hands on their lap(for lack of a better explanation). I'll turn it over to Renfield Kuroda-sensei who is studying at the hombu dojo in Japan under the soke of Mugai Ryu. " Naganuma-sensei has the sword lying next to him in seiza. He slaps the saya off and then (here starts the video) grabs the unsheathed sword in a reverse grip and cuts gyaku-kesagiri. This is the "I'm drinking tea in polite company, with my sword unthreateningly on my right side, when I am suddenly attacked" move."
That quote was found in this thread http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14717&highlight=Revers e+grip+video
I'm pretty certain, although I can't find the thread to reference, that I have heard Kuroda-sensei mention that that is the only waza they do which uses a reverse grip. So I have to wonder how much Mugai Ryu you have done if you did not know this. If you aren't familiar with this particular waza, don't feel to bad. Kuroda-sensei mentions in the same post that it is a considerably advanced waza.


[This message has been edited by Charles Mahan (edited 12-20-2004).]

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#113579 - 12/20/04 10:33 AM Re: Usage of inverted grip on a Katana
Anonymous
Unregistered


I would like to say that I am in no way an experienced swordsman. Instead, I have barely any grounding in kenjutsu or any of the sword arts.

However, I have found in the course of my weapons training that the inverted grip has some advantages that are not immediately apparent.

The inverted grip allows one to conceal the weapon, which would be virtually useless after a sword encounter has begun, but provide an advantage in the first moments of the encounter. With the inverted grip, what seems to your opponent to be a punch can turn into a quick win when you swing out your weapon. In addition, your enemy will allow you to get closer if he believes that you are unarmed.

An inverted grip allows one to attack from new and unexpected angles. When confronted with something they do not expect, many people falter and provide an opening.

When you are in extremely enclosed spaces, an inverted grip can allow you to attack even when a normal grip is hindered by environmental obstacles. This is also true when you have been surprised and your opponent is too close for the conventional grip.

It can allow one to attack to the rear from short range.

In my experience, most techniques have use in certain situations. It is up to the individual to decide which techniques work best for him/her. Some people are uncomfortable with specific moves, and make up the ground by adapting other techniques.

As I said before, my experience with the sword is limited. What I have written comes from my experience with other weapons and could be inapplicable to the katana.

Edit- removal of pointless statement

[This message has been edited by Xaith (edited 12-20-2004).]

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#113580 - 12/20/04 04:02 PM Re: Usage of inverted grip on a Katana
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Xaith

How are you going to hide a 30 inch blade with an inverted grip????

If your opponent has "surprised you" and is that close--chances are your already dead.

If not you would be far better off using a shorter weapon rather than trying to draw your own sword.

(guys is ALREADY inside the range)

Say maybe a knife or short blade.

The grip does not significantly change the length of the blade--if you need X inchs to draw the blade then it does not matter what grip you use.

Sure you can twist your body around--but if its "extremly close quaters" then you would STILL be better off using a knife or shorter blade than you would be trying to draw a sword.

If its as "close" as you mention then a long blade is of limited ultiity--a shorter blade would give you more options.

The grip does not really change the position of the blade.

Still draws the same--so if you thrusting back behind you, you still would use the same motion is your "normal" grip (thumb "down") as you would do with "inverted" grip (thumb "up")

So it would not really save any time in a back thrust.

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 12-20-2004).]

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 12-20-2004).]

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#113581 - 12/20/04 08:23 PM Re: Usage of inverted grip on a Katana
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
So if it has all these advantages, why is it that so few koryu use a reversed grip for anything, and the few that do use it only in very special conditions?

If the guys who staked their lives on their skill didn't think it was a useful grip, why do you?

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#113582 - 12/20/04 10:20 PM Re: Usage of inverted grip on a Katana
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charles Mahan:
So if it has all these advantages, why is it that so few koryu use a reversed grip for anything, and the few that do use it only in very special conditions?

If the guys who staked their lives on their skill didn't think it was a useful grip, why do you?
[/QUOTE]


Woah, I'm confused now. Are we talking about the reverse grip, or the inverted grip? These are very different techniques (at least in my training).

Somebody please clarify. Here are my definitions...

Reverse grip: Sword is held upside down in one hand along the elbow, blade out.

Inverted Grip: Sword is held normally but with the blade up.

So which one are we talking about?


[This message has been edited by SifuSkyler (edited 12-20-2004).]

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#113583 - 12/21/04 05:51 AM Re: Usage of inverted grip on a Katana
Anonymous
Unregistered


If I may . . . I'm no expert, but I do see advantages to a 3 foot razor along the forearm. In close quarters it would provide more agile blocks, a wide range of spinning slashes from a number of unusual angles, and the ability to "thrust" at an opponent behind you. And SifuSkyler, I think they're refering to the "Reverse Grip."

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