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#113460 - 02/28/05 03:23 PM Re: haidong gumdo vs kendo
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
Subedi

But that just it, HG appears to have NEVER been used on any "battlefield."

Forms reflect "multiple opponents" from where did these forms derive? Where did they come from?
In japanese koryu, I know that tech A and kata B were used by specifc people to train for a lethal duel that occured on this day, place and time.
I can show swordsmen for the same school fighting over a period of several 100 years.

Does the same support exsist for HG?

I ask because from a koryu perspective HG does not look much like any japanese koryu kenjutsu school. (or chinese method for that matter)
Can't tell you what it is--can tell you what it is not.
And a comparison with koryu kenjutsu is probably not warrented.

Again I ask can anyone to name a master of HG prior to the 1950's or 30's--or a master that did not get most of training ORGINALLY from a kumdo guy?

I guess what I am getting at here is that I read alot of claims made by HG folks about how there art is designed for the "battlefield" and for "combat."

I would like to know if how they know that?

As far as I am aware, marketing aside, HG is not a "old" art--its a new one--and if its new then where did this "battlefield" combat take place--folks have not used swords in battle (as primary weapons) in many 100's of years.

Can someone even find a reffernce to the art prior than 30 years ago????

This whole HG thing stikes me like folks being told that TKD is "2000 year old art used by the Hwrang warriors of ancient Silla"

Nice story, good marketing, but histoically valid it ain't.
Is TKD a good art with effective techniques--YOU BET IT IS.
Good enough that its don't need the "puff piece."

Just like I would imagine HG is.

AGAIN, NOT QUESTIONING THE ART, I am questioning some of its claims.

AND I COULD BE WRONG--WOULD NOT BE THE FIRST TIME.

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 02-28-2005).]

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#113461 - 02/28/05 03:39 PM Re: haidong gumdo vs kendo
Anonymous
Unregistered


Can I trace a lineage back? Nope. It's all hearsay and even that has mostly been lost. Do I trust instructors when they say these techniques are traditional and were at one point well recorded before a spree of library burning among other things by the Japanese? Yes, I have no reason to doubt them and historically their claims make sense.

Aside from simply trust my instructors how do I know this is authentic battlefield stuff? Well, it's basically IDENTICAL to classical Kenjutsu which makes a great deal of sense considering Japan and Korea are right next to each other and what's more, were strong trading partners for most of both countries history. Heck, it's pretty much been decided the Japanese original came from Korea.

You can trace the lineage of Kenjutsu schools, we have exactly the same techniques and philosophy towards combat. Pretty much exactly the same training methods. Why would I doubt this? The history of HDGD is completely consistant from what I've seen.

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#113462 - 02/28/05 03:54 PM Re: haidong gumdo vs kendo
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
Subedai

But see its NOT, the HG things listed above would be horrifically bad ideas to try in the midst of the chaos of a battlefield or even a duel with live blades.

You simply don't find many of the techniques described above in kenjutsu.

How many kenjutsu ryu have you seen that you can makes such a comparison?
Or are you taking the word of your teacher on that as well?
Koryu arts are kinda rare outside of Japan.
Which ryu are they "identical" too???

Good that you trust them, but I am asking for support.
And the old "all the records got burned up by the Japanese is thin.
Didn't fly with the TKD guys, don't fly now.
Plenty of records exsist, they just often don't support folks claims.

Again, name for me a varifible HG guy past the 1950's.
Or name for me a HG din't get their training from someone that was kumdo guy.
Or show me the NAME HG used prior to 30 years ago.

These are not hard questions, provided that the claimed history of HG is accurate.

What I have found so far is that many claims are being made--very few of which can be supported.

Happy that your happy in your chosen art.
We should all be so lucky.

What you think or feel or belive, or are told is YOUR business.
But when you post it as fact in a open website--then the facts must be supported.


[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 02-28-2005).]

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#113463 - 02/28/05 04:16 PM Re: haidong gumdo vs kendo
Anonymous
Unregistered


Found an interesting article re: history of Haidong Gumdo.
http://www.answers.com/topic/haidong-gumdo


Notice the line..."Pumsae within Haedong Kumdo is gleaned from various sword patterns found within the Muye Dobo T'ongshi (Illustrated Manual of Martial Arts), a text which the Koreans obtained from the Chinese in the early 18th Century. Paldo/Ch'akgum forms (drawing/sheathing the sword) were taken from Japanese iaido."

Roman

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#113464 - 02/28/05 04:27 PM Re: haidong gumdo vs kendo
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
Thanks for the link!

Checking it out.

Apart from the "Muye Dono T"ongshi"

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#113465 - 02/28/05 04:34 PM Re: haidong gumdo vs kendo
Anonymous
Unregistered


First of all what specifically have I listed that would be a "horrifically bad idea"?

Second, my experience of Kenjutsu comes from discussions with Kenjutsu students and instructors in person. Mostly Kashima Shin Ryu people as well as Aikido sword practitioners and Shinkage Ryu Iaido.

As we've seen, peoples individual accounts of history can easily be false, we have no way of knowing for sure. What we CAN trust is archeological evidance. Swords uncovered in Korea are consistant with those used in Haidong Gumdo. They're nearly identical to Japanese swords yet there seems to be a tendancy to move the balance up the blade a bit. Don't believe me? Go to Korea and find a good history museum. I've also studied artwork from ancient Korea and Japan. Somehow warriors depicted in artwork from both countries seem to use the same weapons, the same stances, the same strikes. It's all very consistant.

Although now that I really think about it, there are some techniques more akin to Chinese straight sword that I haven't seen in any Japanese schools, I wonder why? Could it be that Korea is connected to the mainland? I've heard such things from my instructors but you've now I'm not so sure...They could be lying...Korea could actually be an island off the coast of...Ohio. You've really opened my naive little eyes cxt. Thank you.

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#113466 - 02/28/05 04:54 PM Re: haidong gumdo vs kendo
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
Subedai

Going back to where swords were forged to show that arts were the same??

Weak line of argument.

About as good as some of the TKD claiming that their kata "looked Japanese" because the kata were "common" throughout asia.

Which Kashima ShinRyu folks? Specifcially--I ask because Karl Friday is a member of another website I belong to and thats his area of expertise.

Shinkage Ryu Iaido--do they do rolls with their swords?
Don't think so.

"Aikido sword" is not a koryu--fine art, but you said that HG was "identical" with "kenjutsu."

And you have yet to name which ryu HG is "identical" too.

Good point that japanese techniques DON'T look much at all like chinese techniqes.
Reason being is that ARE DIFFERENT.

A-Which is weird since you insist that HG are "identical" to kenjutsu

B-Now your switching gears to imply that HG is more based upon Chinese swords--which means that:

B-1, Its no longer "identical"
B-2, Which Chinese system is a part of?

Ah, sarcasic comments--very nice, can't support YOUR OWN contention, lets try ad hominum attacks.

Fortunatly for you I am less naive. And I ask good questions.
Maybe if you had checked with me first.....

Better not let your students see this, they might start asking question you can't answer.
And then start wondering why not.


[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 02-28-2005).]

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 02-28-2005).]

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 02-28-2005).]

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 02-28-2005).]

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#113467 - 03/01/05 09:06 AM Re: haidong gumdo vs kendo
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Notice the line..."Pumsae within Haedong Kumdo is gleaned from various sword patterns found within the Muye Dobo T'ongshi (Illustrated Manual of Martial Arts), a text which the Koreans obtained from the Chinese in the early 18th Century. Paldo/Ch'akgum forms (drawing/sheathing the sword) were taken from Japanese iaido."[/QUOTE]The Muye Dobo T'ongshi was written by order of King Jungjo in 1789. The reason for this was to preserve the martial arts that were used by the Korean military at the time. This book is based off of an older book, one written in 1599.

In the late 1500s, a Chinese martial arts manual (Kihyo Shinsu) was obtained. King Sunjo took interest in the arts and later ordered a military officer to compile six fighting methods. The resulting work was the 1599 manual, "Muye Jebo". These six martial arts forms were Kon Ban (long stick), Dung Pae (shield art), Nang Sun (multiple tipped bamboo spear), Jang Chang (long spear), Dang Pa (triple tip spear), and Ssang Soo Do (long sword).

Ssang Soo Do was a Chinese art form which used a 5 foot long sword, much longer than that which is used in HDGD. In HDGD, the swords are usually between 3 and 3.5 feet, the 3.5 would be for a very tall person.

There are in fact things I see within Ssang Soo Do that are in HDGD.

So now we find that we're going in a different direction... Cxt seems to be stating that HDGD is based off of Kendo, a Japanese art. However now we're seeing evidence that HDGD may have been influenced by Chinese art forms.

So which is it? Was HDGD ripped off of the Japanese or Chinese? That seems to be your main goal, Cxt, to somehow discredit anything Korean. Why are you so adamantly trying to find anything you can to “prove” there is something “wrong” with HDGD?

You repeatedly ask for facts supporting claims that HDGD is not based off of Kumdo/Kendo, yet you supply none to support your claims in return.

You say that HDGD is a "new" invention, yet the book that was mentioned, and is sitting right next to me as I type this, has drawings of forms that come from that 1599 book -- clearly predating your 1960 "invention" date for HDGD.

Cxt, why do you put so much effort into trying to tear down other art forms? One of the first things I learned when I began studying martial arts was that a martial arts student is to respect *all* martial arts, that a martial artist is to never disrespect or look down upon any other form of martial art.

Did you not learn this as well?

In closing, I'd like to go back to the book in question. What this book provides is evidence that what is currently HDGD is in parts documented hundreds of years ago. It does not prove that Koreans invented HDGD, nor does it prove that the Chinese art that was documented was invented by the Chinese either. For all we know, Ssang Soo Do was created by Chinese, based upon Korean influence. Or maybe it was made by the Chinese based upon Japanese influence. Or maybe it invented entirely by the Chinese. We don't know, at least not using this single book as a reference; we just know that it was documented in 1599 by something the Chinese military was using at that time.

And you are right, you will not find references to the name "Haidong Gumdo" in ancient Korean texts, the name is new. I'm sure that anyone who has studied any martial arts history can attest to the fact that names change. It wasn't always called Kendo, now was it?

Martial arts aren't always performed and taught identically either, now are they? Anyone who has seen the same art form differing schools should be able to attest to this. Martial artists studying under multiple masters in the same school should even see differences. Don't you think that would indicate that martial art forms do in fact change over time? Don't you think that perhaps over 500 or even 1,000 years, the masters who have carried on the traditions may have improved certain techniques? Or do you think the masters who originally started the martial arts forms thought of everything? Things change; you will not find a cookie cutter copy of HDGD from 331 AD; however that does not mean HDGD did not in fact originate from sword fighting techniques developed during that time.

-Edit: quoting wasn't working, fixed.

[This message has been edited by Turom (edited 03-01-2005).]

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#113468 - 03/01/05 10:12 AM Re: haidong gumdo vs kendo
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
Turom

I am asking a couple of questions. Your basic who, what, when, where etc.

1-As far as I am aware EVERYONE that is listed as teaching HG is directly connected to Kumdo. They either were trained in it themselves or the the guys that taught them were.

(this is comparable to the TKD guys that trained in Japanese karate insisting that "TKD was a 2000 year old fighting art use by the Hwrang warriors of Silla--that may be, but they have no direct links to those guys AND that not where they got THIER training)

2-When and What? We know that HG was NOT an art practiced prior to the 80's. At least one link gives dates of the late 80's AND the guy that coined the term.

So if HG did not exsist as a "style" until then--then what was it PRIOR and WHEN was the HG added to the kumdo they already practiced?

3-Where? As in where was it prior to the 80's? "IF" the HG are in fact different from kumdo, then from what source did they come from?
No-one is able to come up with were the techniques actually came from--if its NOT kumdo--then where?

4-Who? as in who added them?

5-How? As in how did the person/persons that created it learn the techniques?

These are not hard questions--I can find these out about pretty much any style.

Oh, and the burden of proof is not on me--ITS ON THE FOLKS MAKING THE CLAIMS.
If you claim the HG dates back to the 1500's then you have to show the proof for it.
If I claim I can fly--you are not obliged to prove me wrong--I HAVE TO PROVE I CAN.

For my money the Muye Dobo T'ongshi (reffered from here on out as MDT) is simply not a credible source.

1-Only shows static pictures-no way to tell what it "really" looked like.

2-Same problem with ANYONE claiming to have learned an art by looking at pictures in a book.
You would not "buy" a guy coming to your class telling you that they "knew" your system by reading a book.
So why "buy" the same argument from others?

And no, what you have "documented" is that an art using a "5 foot" sword was being used, back in the 1500s.
That art no longer seems to exsist does it?
So your using an art that no longer exsist, using a weapon that ALSO no longer exsist to link to HG?
And that makes sense to you?

And if its NOW being argued that is "chinese" then two things:

1-What about all the claims of it being "identical" to kenjutsu?

2-What chinese art did it come from?

For the record--What I am "tearing down" to use you term, is what I view are bogus claims.

You want to tell me that HG is a fine art? Great I agree.
You want to tell me its "effective?" Ok, sure.
You enjoy it ? We should all be so lucky.

Someone wants to say "I have trained for 25 years and these are the changes I feel needed to be made to make it combat effective."
See, that I can buy. I suppose I can disagree about without having fought lethal sword duels how can you "really" know?
But overall I have NO problem with that.
Someone wants to say "I studed Japense kenjutsu and chinese swordsmanship and developed HG from my personal training."
As long as they can tell me what they studeid and whom they studied with--and those folks back them up.
Cool with that too.

But where I draw the line is when people start in about it being an "ancient combat art."

(From what I can determine its neither "ancient" nor was it ever used in "combat")

I "respect" the truth--I DON'T respect puffery and BS.

And neither should you.


[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 03-01-2005).]

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 03-01-2005).]

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 03-01-2005).]

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#113469 - 03/01/05 04:20 PM Re: haidong gumdo vs kendo
Anonymous
Unregistered


CXT,

No prob.

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