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#11283 - 09/06/03 12:54 AM Violent Minds
Stealthdozer Offline

Registered: 08/15/03
Posts: 224
Loc: Harpswell, Maine, US.
“Know your enemy as you know yourself, and you will be successful in one hundred battles.”
*Sun Tzu, The Art of War

There is a dark joke that goes: How do you recognize an incompetent self-defense instructor? He is the one who has never been beaten into a pulp. Ever since I was a baby being beaten, I’ve been a student of violence. Violence is reality: at some point almost everyone is touched by violence, directly or otherwise. This is what I think:

The truth about violence is that this pain will almost always be inflicted upon you by someone that you know, perhaps even trust and love: a family-member, a spouse, a lover; a mentor, a colleague or an acquaintance.

Rather than wandering through life as a paranoid delusional lump or struggle with irrational demophobia, it is better to recognize the perpetrators and their methods prior to their initiating violence, avoiding them if possible, or preparing for them if necessary.

Obviously, a bully with an assumed superiority (particularly one mired in an Alpha/Beta world view) is someone who is likely to add violence to your life, especially if the bully believes that they can avoid or negate the negative consequences of their behavior.

People handicapped by the following traits (especially when combined), they are also potentially perpetrators of violence:

Beware of people who arrogantly assume they can control the actions of other people.

Beware of people that are extremely selfish or have an exaggerated (often “outraged”) sense of entitlement.

Beware of people if they demand instant gratification, and especially if they are addicted to drugs or alcohol.

Never tolerate a mean drunk. A mellow drunk bothers no one; a merry and emphatic drunk can be amusing. A mean drunk will always cause you or others harm. Never diminish your own capabilities in the presence of a mean drunk, or where you can expect one to arrive.

Beware of people if they are unsteady, temper-mental, moody, manipulative, or typically negative. This is especially true if they are prone to throwing violent physical temper-tantrums when denied getting their own way: an escalation from hitting objects to hitting people is virtually inevitable given enough time.

Beware of people if they are insensitive, suffer from an extreme lack of empathy, and usually denigrate others who they perceive as being very different from themselves, or if they habitually slander others with hostile or threatening language or gestures.

Be especially wary of people if they are prone to obsession, and are brooding and vengeful when thwarted.

Be suspicious of people if they are (or were) a participant of a contact sport where violence and aggression are rewarded with applause and acceptance, and be especially wary if this person habitually only measures themselves in terms of their athletic prowess or association.

Be wary of theists (those who believe that god or gods exist), most especially those who worship the God of Abraham (Jewish/Christian/Islamic theists). These people are inherently irrational, and assume anyone who does not believe as they do is not as worthy of life as they are. Many of humanity’s greatest tragedies and conflicts are rooted in theism: the ancient wars and genocide of the Middle East, the Dark Ages, the Inquisitions, the Crusades, the conquests and genocide of many indigenous peoples around the globe, the Witch Trials of Europe and Colonial USA, Anti-Semitism in Europe and the Americas, the “Troubles” in Ireland, the Arab/Israeli Conflict, Islamic Terrorism, and the current conflict in the South West Asia and the Middle East represent an non-exclusive history of theistic violence . On a personal level, theists will wish you the calamity of damnation, and will even attack you if they assume they can sans consequence if they determine you do not share their delusions. This is especially so if you do not accept their irrational justifications of their beliefs. Be cautious around practitioners of Nunjutsu: they typically disguise themselves as large penguins, and secret wooden rods with sharp edges within their flowing robes to use as surprise weapons of offence.

Not only is one most likely to already know the person who will commit violence upon them, this violence is something the aggressor has mentally prepared typically for a very long while: they have already crossed the mental and social barriers which inhibit violence in most people.

Their next step is to “size you up”. Selfish people especially do not wish to be hurt – they need to know that they can “get away with it”, and thwart possible negative repercussions.

They may be a random mugger, looking for their next prey: anyone whose body language advertises “victim”. Or your attacker may be a co-worker, constantly testing your boundaries, checking your reflexes and responses, learning how much they can get away with. They may be a trusted loved one, escalating their use of force against you over a period of time.

An attacker may stalk you quietly for any length of time, or may rush at you with loud hostility all at once, just to see how you respond. Often attackers will attempt to get close to you via a ruse (such as a request of simple help: directions, spare coins, etc.).

The point is: even an attacker who does not “know” you will “size you up”. Most attackers know their victims very well, and have been slowly escalating towards violence for a period of time. Recognizing and responding to their little "tests" with poise and confidence may thwart their attack prior to violence visiting you.

It’s not that some people only hurt the ones the love, they only hurt the ones they “know” they can without suffering negative consequences.

The attacker’s next step is tactical: deciding where, when, and how to assault you. Even the most “impulsive” of attacks are premeditated to some degree, albeit not necessarily in a legal sense.

An attacker that is sure of their physical superiority will likely attempt to corner you. Attackers that outnumber you will likely attempt to surround you. Surprise attacks and ambushes are also frequently used: the idea is for the attacker to overwhelm the prey.

No attacker will de-escalate the violence on their own accord once blood has been shed or blows have been struck. One must fight or flee. Cooperation after the attack has begun will get you hurt, often seriously, as will pleading for assistance: the attacker has usually carefully chosen ground where no one will aid you, either by isolating you, or attacking you where others will not interfere with the assault.

Heed this: an attacker will never willing and wittingly admit to what they have done. Even if presented with overwhelming proof of their guilt, they will ALWAYS find a way to justify their actions (and blame someone else, any one else, in the process - even the victim!).

[This message has been edited by Stealthdozer (edited 09-19-2003).]

#11284 - 09/06/03 02:32 AM Re: Violent Minds
javaman Offline

Registered: 07/04/03
Posts: 179
Loc: calgary, alberta, canada
although im not sure about having to beware of someone because they are theist, i did like the part about "nunjutsu"

other than that, great post never underestimate the importance of awareness of any type of attacker's strategy, especially since most people don't worry about coworkers or friends attacking. But it can happen.

#11285 - 09/06/03 03:03 AM Re: Violent Minds
Bossman Offline

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
Excellent post Stealthdozer, thank you. All your recent posts have been both moving and informative. You may enjoy this story from doorman Dennis Jones.


#11286 - 09/06/03 07:07 AM Re: Violent Minds
JKogas Offline

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I have a friend who is a cop in Chicago. The term "street" fighting is a bit of a misnomer to him. He says that statistics show that the overwhelming majority of assaults occur within the HOME and specifically, the kitchen and with people that we know.

No...the stranger doesn't jump from the bushes and go "BOOO"!


#11287 - 09/06/03 02:45 PM Re: Violent Minds
trog dor Offline

Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 164
Loc: Canada
Be wary of theists (those who believe that god or gods exist), most especially those who worship the God of Abraham (Jewish/Christian/Islamic theists).

That's over two billion people(!) I have to be afraid of. I don't have time to to bother worrying about that many people. Dozer, I'm atheist (as in I denounce organized religion as a whole), However I was raised a catholic and find your opinion of theists to be crude and ignorant at best. Think of it this way if it will help; there cannot possible be two billion evil theists in the world.

An other issue I think should be brought up is where your opinions have been formed. You grew up in what seems to be an incredibly voilence and hate-filled atmosphere, the situations you gained expreience from are, far more often than not something the rest of us will never experience. Violence is surely everything you describe it as, but this world isn't as full of it as you assume.

#11288 - 09/06/03 05:39 PM Re: Violent Minds
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2806
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Stealthdozer:
Be suspicious of people if they are (or were) a participant of a contact sport where violence and aggression are rewarded with applause and acceptance....

Be wary of theists (those who believe that god or gods exist), most especially those who worship the God of Abraham (Jewish/Christian/Islamic theists)

These statements I do not agree with.

Your first statement is an assumption that people who participate in contact sports are inherently violent and belligerent. Martial arts can fall under the category of a contact "sport". When one performs devestating bunkai or is proficient in fighting, is he/she not rewarded by their peers with applause and acceptance? Should I be wary of everyone who posts at this site? My answer is no. Martial arts, in general, is about self discovery and self improvement through contstant evaluation of one's self and one's actions. Be it through kata, kumite or interaction with others.
I, for one, have been involved with contact sports for pretty much my entire life (football, wrestling). I was always taught that when you are not on the field/mat you are a representive of the team and must always act as a gentleman.

Your second statement assumes that all theists are simple minded people with narrow views and who deal swift punishment to those who do not share their beliefs. The Islamic, Jewish, and Catholic believe in a loving, forgiving god. Theism is not only based on honoring one's god through prayer but also to develop a constructive and cooperative community where each member extends kindness, understanding, and brother/sisterhood to the other.
From reading your past posts it seems that your parents used the bible as justification for their violence towards you and your siblings. In doing so your parents have become heretics in their own right. It seems that from your experiences you associate theists with villians. Have you not let yourself become narrow-minded as well? Every nation, religion, race has their bad seeds. Please dont assume that the mis-guided actions and beliefs of the few are the norm.

I hope that one day you find an outlet for your demons and move forward towards a happier life.

Warm regards,


#11289 - 09/06/03 10:50 PM Re: Violent Minds
Raven Offline

Registered: 04/13/03
Posts: 549
Loc: Sin City
Hey! no fair! Trog and Rual took what i was going to say! For about most of things i agree..(bitterly agreeing with Rual) not everybody who plays in contact sports are bad, (bitterly agreeing with Trog and Rual) all theists are not evil...what you are describing are called fanatics(is that how u spell it?!) They will condemn you if you disagree with them, i personnally know some fanatics...I try not to talk about them on either religion or politics.

P.S. Just kiddin trog and rual...i'm not bitter.

#11290 - 09/07/03 01:52 AM Re: Violent Minds
Stealthdozer Offline

Registered: 08/15/03
Posts: 224
Loc: Harpswell, Maine, US.
Thanks, Steve and John [IMG][/IMG]

One of the concepts I was speaking of appears in Dennis Jones’ link regarding the lunatic in the gent’s lavatory: note how the perpetrator “sized up” his potential prey? It’s practically a job interview, “Victim Wanted, Apply In Person”. Now that I think of it, predators such as the one described in the link may have an untapped corporate human resource potential: they would likely prove most intuitive in identifying nice, docile employees for targets of management hostility.

I’ve found that most Law Enforcement Officers have a vast practical knowledge of the types of violence as the really occur vice the often mistaken notions and myths generated by professional “self-defense experts”. From a self-defense standpoint, our training should focus on the people we actually have to deal with before, during, and after the violence, rather than the nearly mythical boogieman in the bushes.

#11291 - 09/07/03 01:57 AM Re: Violent Minds
Stealthdozer Offline

Registered: 08/15/03
Posts: 224
Loc: Harpswell, Maine, US.
Trog Dor and Raul Perez:

I never claimed that all athletes who participate in contact sports will assault you, nor did I claim that all theists are “evil”, or that all of them wish to harm those who do not share their faith. I did claim that they are potential perpetrators of violence, most especially when combined with some of the other traits I listed (e.g. imagine an arrogant, mean drunk bible-thumper who used to played used to play high school football). The history and current events I cited are none too remote.
Additionally, these links describes some of the harm generated by irrational thinking:

As to that imaginary invisible friend “the loving, forgiving god”:
In Genesis 3:16 god punishes all women, innocent or not, with painful childbirth and subjugation to men.

In Genesis 7:4 god has a bad day at the office, thus decides to drown innocent babies, and animals both wild and domestic via a great flood. How did he drown fish?

In Exodus 4:11 god boasts about making people handicapped.

In Exodus 4:23 god resorts to hostage taking and terrorism in order to get his own way. He does this via threatening a baby. Soon, he is slaughtering little babies all across Egypt.

In Exodus 9:19-20 god slaughters Egyptian cattle. Sometimes, cow tipping just isn't enough.

In Exodus 9:29-30 god kills off innocent babies, and whatever cows he missed earlier.

In Exodus 20:17 god tells us not to free another's slaves. Abolitionists beware!!

In Exodus 32:27-28 god tells the sons to slaughter their neighbors: 3,000 men are slain.

In Leviticus 19:20-22 god demands that raping a slave woman is punishable by scourging the victim. The rapist is to be forgiven.

In Leviticus 25:44-46 god tells his followers to make slaves of their neighbors.

In Leviticus 27:3-7 god helpfully provides a pricing guide for the cost of slaves. According to this guide, as a male between the ages of 20 and 60 years (the most expensive category), I am worth approximately US$25. How much are you worth to god?

In Numbers 14:18 god's idea of justice is explained: little children are to be punished for their great-great grandparents transgressions.

In Numbers 31:1-54 god tells his followers to commit genocide, "sparing" only the virgin girls, who are to be raped. Even god gets some virgins.

In Numbers 33:4 god kills of another batch of Egyptian babies. And abortion is a sin because…?

In Deuteronomy 2:33-36 god demands genocide again. No mention of virgin girls this time, unless these children are raped to death…

In Deuteronomy 7:2 god demands more genocide from his followers.

In Deuteronomy 13:12-16 god demands new and improved genocide, now including cattle. Oh, wait, we've had that before. Damn cows.

In Deuteronomy 32:21-26 god glories in being a psychotic terrorist. Don't miss the atrocities of Deuteronomy 28, either!

In Joshua 6:18-19 the omnipotent creator is short of cash, again. In Joshua 8:22-26 god demands more genocide, plus some more slavery as detailed in Joshua 9:21-27, but THIS time, in Joshua 10:10-11, we get slaughter AND a chase scene!! Go, god!!

In Joshua 10:28-32 god demands still more genocide. In Joshua 11:6-17 god still demands more genocide. There are more exceptions to "Thou shalt not kill" than there are to a rich man's tax code.

In Judges 1:2-7 god's takes a break from genocide, has his followers kill "only" 10,000 people, but at least they get to torture and mutilate somebody by cutting off both thumbs and big toes!

In Judges 1:12-13 Caleb offers his daughter as prize to anyone who conquers the City of Debir. The girl's cousin wins the contest, thus the prize.

In Judges 1:17, 19 god gets back to good, ol' regular genocide. Killing innocent people is serious work!!

In Judges 2:14 god has a temper-tantrum and sells Israel into slavery.

In Judges 3:28-29 and 4:15-16 god reverts to, you guessed it, genocide.

In Judges 5:30 god hands out a maiden or two to each of his troops. That’s quite a perk!!

In Judges 10:17 god gets angry at Israel, again, and sells them into slavery.

In Judges 12:6 god slays 42,000 innocent people because someone with a speech impediment mispronounces the word "shibboleth". And here you thought the word "lisp" was cruel jest.

In Judges 15:4-8 a "righteous" Samson captures 300 foxes, ties their tails together, and sets them on fire. Abusing animals is almost as righteous as killing babies, apparently.

In Judges 19:22-30, after taking in a traveling Levite, the host offers his virgin daughter and his guest's concubine to a mob of perverts (who want to have sex with his guest). The mob refuses the daughter, but accepts the concubine and they "abuse her all night." The next morning she crawls back to the doorstep and dies. The Levite puts her dead body on an ass and takes her home. Then he chops her body up into twelve pieces and sends them to each of the twelve tribes of Israel.

In Judges 21:7-23 in order to find wives for the Benjamites, who were unwilling to use their own daughters, the other tribes attacked and killed all occupants of a city except for the young virgins. These virgins were then given to the Benjamites as wives.

In 1 Samuel 2:10 if god doesn't like you he will send a thunderstorm to break your body into little pieces. In 1 Samuel 2:31-34, if god really doesn't like you, he will cut off your arm, consume your eyes, grieve your heart, and slay your sons and grandfathers. In 1 Samuel 5:6, 9, & 12 we learn that if god really, really doesn't like you, he will give you hemorrhoids in your "secret parts".

In 1 Samuel 5:11 god wipes out another city.

In 1 Samuel 15:2-3 god demands more genocide, this time as punishment for some no doubt petty transgression committed hundreds of years previously by the forefathers of these innocent people.

In 1 Samuel 15:7-34 god goads Saul into torturing and slaying his prisoner, a King.

In Matthew 5:17 Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament.

In Matthew 8:21 Jesus shows no compassion for the bereaved, saying to a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead."

In Matthew 8:32 Jesus abuses animals by sending some devils into a herd of pigs, causing the pigs to run off a cliff and drown in the sea below. The acorn does not fall far from the tree. Was there a local shortage of Egyptian cows? Moo!

In Matthew 10:15 Jesus becomes a terrorist, and threatens genocide against cities.

In Matthew 10:28 Jesus tries to scare people by telling them that his dad can beat up their dad.

In Matthew 11:20-24 Jesus threatens more cities.

In Matthew 12:47-49 "Mister Family Values" himself (Jesus) is disrespectful to his mother and rude to his brothers.

In Matthew 13:41-42 Jesus threatens to send his angels against any who offend him, and send them straight to hell. Love, peace, tolerance, and forgiveness are beneath him, apparently.

In Matthew 15:4-7 Jesus commits hypocrisy by demanding all others to honor their parents. Sorry about being rude back in Mathew 12, Mom.

In Matthew 18:8-9 Jesus advocates self-mutilation, but for others, not him. He's perfect, thank you.

In Matthew 18:25 Jesus advocates slavery.

In Matthew 25:29 Jesus proposes a system of economy where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Is this where President Bush got the idea?

In Mark 5:12-13 Jesus spooks 2,000 pigs, causing them to jump of a cliff and drown in the sea. Is this evidence of more animal abuse, or is the story from Matthew 8:32 getting better with each telling?

In Mark 6:11 Jesus resorts to threatening cities again. Die, innocent babies, Die!!

In Mark 7:9-13 Jesus criticizes people for not killing their children, as they should have, according to Old Testament Law. The same law Jesus broke when he was disrespectful to his Mother in Matthew 12:47-49.

In Mark 10:29-30 Jesus will reward men who abandon their wives and children.

In Mark 11:13-14 Jesus kills a fig tree for not bearing fruit, even though it was out of season. Apparently, "Mister Perfect" wasn't much of an agronomist, or ethicist.

In Luke 8:20-21 Jesus is disrespectful to his mother and rude to his brothers, again. Or still.

In Luke 8:27-37 Jesus heals a naked man who was possessed by many devils by sending the devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the sea. This messy, cruel, and expensive (for the owners of the pigs) treatment did not favorably impress the local residents, and Jesus was asked to leave. This story DOES get better with each telling!!

In Luke 10:10-15 Jesus terrorizes entire cities, claiming they will be violently destroyed and the inhabitants "thrust down to hell" for not "receiving" his disciples. No doubt these people preferred their pigs.

In Luke 12:46-47 Jesus likens god to a sadistic, diabolical slave-owner, who will beat you "with many stripes".

In Luke 14:26 Jesus decides that it is not enough for men to abandon their families; they must actively hate them, too. Where is the love??

In Luke 16:17 Jesus declares that all the vicious, irrational laws of the Old Testament are binding forever.

In Luke 17:27 Jesus talks about Noah, neatly demonstrating his own ignorance of science, history, and justice.

In John 2:4 Jesus is, again, rude to his mother. She seems so nice, too.

In John 5:14 Jesus stupidly announces that god handicaps people as just punishment for their sins.

In John 7:8-10 Jesus lies to his family about attending a feast.

In Acts 5:1-10 Peter, with god's help, kills a man who sold his possessions, but did not fork over all of the earnings. Why is the omnipotent creator always short of cash?

In Acts 13:48 we learn that only pre-ordained people would be allowed in heaven. So much for freewill…

As to Islam and Allah, I've started to read the Quran, and am now approximately half way through. I am reading Surah Ten at the moment, out of 114 total. Many of the latter Surah are quite short, as if the author started out strong, but was soon bored with the whole affair. There is much written about Moses and such, and other familiar characters and events. Already I have read text that causes me concern.

"Repentance" (Surah Nine), contains 21 verses demanding the followers of Allah to make war upon the "unbelievers", and contains many more verses supporting these statements, ridiculing those who do not fight for Allah, and praising those who do.

A dozen other nonexclusive examples are easy to spot:
Surah 2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

Surah 2:244 Fight in the way of Allah, and know that Allah is Hearer, Knower.

Surah 3:111 They will not harm you save a trifling hurt, and if they fight against you they will turn and flee. And afterward they will not be helped.

Surah 3:128 It is no concern at all to thee whether Allah relent or punish those who disbelieve, for they are evildoers.

Surah 4:74 Let those who fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him we shall bestow a vast reward.

Surah 4:76 Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil. Lo! The devil's strategy is ever weak.

Surah 6:42 We have sent already unto peoples that were before thee, and visited them with tribulation and adversity, in order that they might grow humble.

Surah 6:107 Had Allah willed, they had not been idolatrous. We have not set thee as keeper over them, nor art thou responsible for them.

Surah 7:4-5 How many a township have We destroyed! As a raid by night, or while they slept at noon, Our terror came unto them. No plea had they, when Our terror came unto them, save that they said: Lo! We were wrongdoers.

Surah 8:15 O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them.

Surah 8:57 If thou comest on the unbeliever in war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, and haply they may remember.

Surah 8:65 O Prophet! Extort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred steadfast they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because the disbelievers are a folk without intelligence.

Shall we walk this way a little further, or have I made my point within a self-defense context? Some theists have, are, and will continue to be potential perpetrators of violence towards those who do not share their irrational beliefs, especially when they perceive a lack of negative consequences to their assaults. Hence the rational behind my statement “Be wary of theists”.

#11292 - 09/07/03 05:05 AM Re: Violent Minds

Stealth Dozer,
The links you give were interesting and disturbing. I would venture that the dangerous thing about these people is not that they are theists, but that they are fanatics and possibly a little mad.
The bible can be interpreted in many different ways. I know people who are strong believers in God that are very good people and I have met others who are out and out hypocrites. As Raul said, your parents used their religion to justify their atrocious behaviour.
I don't expect to convince you; anyone going through what you have would probably either share your views or grow up to use their religous fanatsism to justify their own "mad behaviour".
I understand why you say "be wary of theists" but I believe that it is only the fantics we should be wary of.

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