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#112261 - 07/26/04 04:51 PM Re: i want 2 no if ther is a style of nin jitsu
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
re: bussey's rank... bussey took out dan systems in his style of ninjutsu and you can find that on his site www.robertbussey.com. so tew was given permission on his skill not his dan. sorry to bust your bubble.

Like i said before, Iím only using dan grades as an example. You can be a judan in any system, doesn't mean you can teach. Point being if Bussey wasn't authorized to promote instructors in ninjutsu then he can't.

i have no problem with you but i do have a problem with giving tew sensei a bad name.

I'm not trying to give anyone a bad name, well Dux but he does it to him self. Pointing out inaccuracies and inconsistencies is all i did. This wasn't done to keep Tew from having new students but to inform prospective students of subjects of interest about these styles so they can make an informed decision for them self.

mr severe doesn't know me by eman because when he mentioned that it was under another forum about hayes.

You alluded to the fact that you knew Mr. Severe and that he told you this personally.

ralph severe told me that himself by the way.

This vise, Mr. Severe said it on another forum. I understand you wanted to make a point but let's tell it like it happened. I can ask him if you would like to make public the nickname used on the forum you are talking about.

according to bussey's info he was not given rank in bujinkan but in fact togakure ryu.

Hatsumi doesn't rank in the individual ryu. They are taught as one with a focus on one or two ryu each year basing it one what ever the focus of the training happens to be at that time. In the past the system was referred to as Togakore ryu. Hatsumi changed the name trying to get away from the stereo type of the name ninjutsu. This is why it's called Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

apart from that he also turned down 4 times the promotion to be the only representative of ninjutsu in america

This is partially true. He was one of the first, but there were others. It's rumored he did refuse the godan test but only because he is a devout Christian and believed the sakki test was against his religion. This is said to be partially what caused him to leave.

I can say as i look at Tew does posses some of Bussey's movements, but not so much the technical aspects. Some of the techniques are similar, but not utilizing the flow, angling, distancing, and overall relationship between tori and uke as found in the Bujinkan.

It's safe to say Tew's system hold a ninjutsu influence but nothing more. Not enough to call it ninjutsu as there is much more to it than that. Since Bussey was never authorized to promote teachers in ninjutsu (very few are) Tew's system can't be considered true ninjutsu. I believe Hatsumi has just recently given permission to a very select couple of people to administer the sakki test and give full permission to teach. Everyone else can only promote up to yondan.

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#112262 - 07/27/04 09:30 AM Re: i want 2 no if ther is a style of nin jitsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


the forum was posted on www.martialtalk.com so that way no one thinks that i'm falsifying words. look for yourself if you don't believe me kempoman. nice support on this site from the moderators though. makes you fell welcome. good job!

i know what the bujinkan is called now by the way. bussey was given this before it became the bujin. when everything was still togakure ryu. much like hayes.

i never stated/alluded that i knew mr. severe personally. you assumed that. all i said was that "even his own students say that." you then asked which one trying to call me a liar, and trying to call my bluff. you then found out for yourself that i wasn't bluffing but stating fact.

i will say this. i have never spoken lies or half truths. the full truth is far too much fun.

i will stand on the fact that hayes, bussey, tew or anyone that has real ninjutsu training can very well call what they teach "ninjutsu". even if they don't have your permission.

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#112263 - 07/27/04 10:54 AM Re: i want 2 no if ther is a style of nin jitsu
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
i know what the bujinkan is called now by the way. bussey was given this before it became the bujin. when everything was still togakure ryu. much like hayes.

So what is your argument here? This is the same thing i just said.

i never stated/alluded that i knew mr. severe personally

ralph severe told me that himself by the way.

You made it wound like he told you specifically, not that it was a post on a message board.

you then asked which one trying to call me a liar, and trying to call my bluff.

I just wanted to know who you claimed told me that himself. But talk about the pot calling the kettle black...

i would like also to know who you really trained with in tew ryu? you said that they had a lot of sloppy techniques. tell me who? you can't because you are a liar.

you then found out for yourself that i wasn't bluffing but stating fact.

I knew Mr. Severe had made comments like this. I was just curious who you were referring to.

i will say this. i have never spoken lies or half truths. the full truth is far too much fun.

This is doubtful. No one has been 100% truthful all the time. Don't over exaggerate.

i will stand on the fact that hayes, bussey, tew or anyone that has real ninjutsu training can very well call what they teach ninjutsu. even if they don't have your permission

There is a big difference in Hayes, Bussey and Tew. Anyone who knows anything about legitimate ninjutsu knows what Tew is teaching is just another mma and most don't even take him seriously. Like i said before, if you enjoy your system then don't worry about it. If you don't take what is said on web forums to heart then why are you hear? The fact is you and kai are more than likely class mates and he came running to class and told you all about the @sshole talking about your system. You wanted to be the savior and put me in my place, didn't quite work did it. After you have spent more time training and are exposed to other systems more you will start to see the difference i'm talking about. If you want to continue arguing over semantics, go ahead.

look for yourself if you don't believe me kempoman. nice support on this site from the moderators though. makes you fell welcome. good job!

The mods aren't here to make you feel welcome. I'm sure kempoman will educate you on what his position on this forum is.

The simple fact is i posted my opinion on an open forum in response to someone looking for ninjutsu training. You don't like it and made your point, but you are now going off on tangents, looking for any way to make it look as if i don't know what i'm talking about. I've been around the block a few times and know a bit more than you think.

Back to Mr. Severe telling you himself about Hatsumi. He wasn't even talking to you. He was responding to Don Roley.

I understand you are not a bujinkan supporter and you seem to prefer people who have trained in the bujinkan but left. That is fine, nothing wrong with that. But a few years of training in legitimate ninjutsu doesn't mean what Tew is teaching is ninjutsu.

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#112264 - 07/27/04 12:15 PM Re: i want 2 no if ther is a style of nin jitsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


i'm glad you opinion means so much to you.

i really don't know how many times you have been around the block because you are never clear on what your relationship to ninjutsu is.

anyway i believe i made my point. if you don't want me to be here i can leave if you like. so that way you can go back and dominate everyone with your close minded CONscepts.

just let me know and i'll disappear. why you have such a problem with me and your hatred for me is so strong i guess will remain a mystery to me.

re: mr. severe... i said told me that because i was active on that thread and if you can see there was alot of cross talk between everyone there.

about me getting more experience: i guess when i get another stripe on my white belt i can deserve to speak to you or speak my mind. how about this?... you let me know when i can talk or state my opinion.

and i do believe moderators should make you feel welcome... at least at first. not just go on and start saying that i'm falsifying information. imo

well i think i've said enough. all we are doing is going around in circles and that doesn't resolve anything. i do favor anyone that gets experience and betters/hones it for them. i.e. ed parker, bruce lee, hayes, bussey, tew, and me! hee hee! well maybe not me but all the others i mentioned. lol!

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#112265 - 07/27/04 12:39 PM Re: i want 2 no if ther is a style of nin jitsu
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
[QUOTE]Originally Posted by eman:
look for yourself if you don't believe me kempoman. nice support on this site from the moderators though. makes you fell welcome. good job![/QUOTE]

HOO BOY!

Firstly, I take no one or nothing anyone says at face value. I am a skeptic. I require evidence in order to either substanciate or falsify a claim.

Secondly, my job as a moderator calls for me to help 'Moderate' threads. You were clearly and purposely misundestanding Lane's main point. Which by the way is why this thread is so long.

In a debate points are made and questions asked and answered. Statements are called into question and then EVIDENCE is presented to support said claims. Why would me asking for you to support a direct quote from a well know martial arts instructor with a link to the post or e-mail would make you feel unwelcome is foreign to me. We don't know each other here why shuold I believe anyone on this board without evidence.

Even those who I take advice from or give adivce to here are checked out by my skeptical nature. You think I'm bad here go see the "Energy Arts" section and look at the calls for evidence there.

My comment was not meant to make you feel welcome or unwelcome. A request to provide evidence is benign.

You as anyone else should feel welcome to post here and won't get guff from the mods unless you are being a jerk, spamming the board or post something potientially libelous (Hence many requests for evidence).

ON a non-moderator note...The overall point is that "You can call an apple an orange just because it is a fruit but it is still an apple".

Continue to ignore it if you wish but Rick Tew's system is not ninjutsu. It may be an excellent martial art and he an excellent martial artist but that does not go to the main point that was made.

Kempoman


[This message has been edited by Kempoman (edited 07-27-2004).]

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#112266 - 07/27/04 04:01 PM Re: i want 2 no if ther is a style of nin jitsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


lets take your example and see if i can break it down for you kempoman

ninjutsu is the fruit. i am not calling bujin, toshindo, or anything else ninjutsu rtms all i'm saying is that they are all ninjutsu if you like it or not. i'm not saying apples are oranges or anything else just that they are both fruit.

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#112267 - 07/27/04 06:33 PM Re: i want 2 no if ther is a style of nin jitsu
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
i'm glad you opinion means so much to you.

Yes it does. That's why it's my opinion. You act like youíre the only one allowed to voice their opinion. Unless it agrees with yours.

i really don't know how many times you have been around the block because you are never clear on what your relationship to ninjutsu is.

Then you aren't paying attention. I am not currently training in ninjutsu but have trained in the past with practitioners from different styles of ninjutsu and fully intend on returning to ninjutsu very soon. Before you ask, why not just stick with one dojo? i'll tell you. Being stationed on a ship and doing 4 deployments in 5 years hasn't provided me with more than a month in port San Diego in that 5 years. Being on 2 ships in 5 years, one being a carrier with over 5000 people on board for deployment there was several opportunities to train with people from several different systems, not just ninjutsu. Now on shore duty i will be able to resume a normal training schedule soon.

if you don't want me to be here i can leave if you like.

There is no reason for me to want you to leave.

so that way you can go back and dominate everyone with your close minded CONscepts.

I'm not dominating. I only give INFORMED opinions and facts.

why you have such a problem with me and your hatred for me is so strong i guess will remain a mystery to me.

It will have to remain a mystery to you and i both, because i don't know what you are talking about. If i've been short with you in portions of my posts it's a response to you and your sarcasm. Remember you came into this forum in order to bash me, not the other way around.

re: mr. severe... i said told me that because i was active on that thread and if you can see there was alot of cross talk between everyone there.

But you were vague and misleading. Try telling things like they happen and things would have gone more simply.

about me getting more experience: i guess when i get another stripe on my white belt i can deserve to speak to you or speak my mind. how about this?... you let me know when i can talk or state my opinion.

Do you have a problem with comprehension? What i was saying after you have been training longer and have had more experience in other systems you will start to understand why there is a separation in being allowed to teach and being able to promote teachers. I would have thought the same way you do 10 years ago. I wasnít putting you down, just stating that after you learn to question thing from time to time you will have a better understanding. Not saying you have to consider everything people tell you a lie, but research on your own. Ninjutsu isn't all about flips, cartwheels and flashy techniques.

ninjutsu is the fruit. i am not calling bujin, toshindo, or anything else ninjutsu rtms all i'm saying is that they are all ninjutsu if you like it or not. i'm not saying apples are oranges or anything else just that they are both fruit.

What he is saying is the fruit is martial arts. Ninjutsu, kenpo, ju jutsu ect.. are the types of fruit. Just because you want it to be ninjutsu doesn't mean it is.

How long did Tew train with Bussey by the way?

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#112268 - 07/28/04 01:46 AM Re: i want 2 no if ther is a style of nin jitsu
javaman Offline
Member

Registered: 07/04/03
Posts: 179
Loc: calgary, alberta, canada
[QUOTE] Originall posted by eman
what tew says is that he teaches a modern ninjutsu [/QUOTE]


How can that be? Ninjutsu is a classical martial art. It was used by criminals, spies, soldiers and civilians in feudal japan. Something created in feudal Japan is not modern. So if Tew is teaching a "modern" art it can't be ninjutsu, because ninjutsu is a classical art. I realize that all arts have changed over the years, but that does not mean the art is modern; it means that the art is classical, with modern applications and modifications.

By the way, I ignored this post until now, even though I check this forum every day; Because I think that these "ninjutsu" threads that seem to pop up at least once a week on this site, usually started by a newbie to this forum, are boring. But this thread was not, laff773 as always has great, well written opinions, presented clearly and thoughtfully. And eman, I know you are new to this site, and thank you for joining. I disagree with some of what you say (my opinion, that's all) but you give your opinion clearly and in nice long, well thought out posts, much better than most of the newbies who post 3 sentences, all in caps and use enough chat-room slang to make you drown in ascii code.

I think I know exactly how this thread is going to end: Eventually one or the other of you is going to either get bored of posting on this thread or you are both going to have to agree to disagree, laff773 and I did this a while ago on a "sword tricks" thread. We argued, but I'd like to think we weren't rude or ignorant and we both presented good cases for our opinions. You are a good member here eman, you should post on some other threads too.

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#112269 - 07/28/04 12:47 PM Re: i want 2 no if ther is a style of nin jitsu
Anonymous
Unregistered


laff...etc. i always forget what the names are when i start to post... does that happen to anyone else?

anyway i understand what kempoman was trying to imply about fruit, i just thought i would put my twist on it. also i would like to imagine i comprehend just fine. at least thats what the driver on the short bus told me. hee hee!

javaman: first off thanks for the support. i can always agree to disagree. i like other people's opinions. one man's steal sharpens anothers.

re: modern ninjutsu. if you look at the stephen k hayes thread on www.martialtalk.com you will see what i'm trying to say by modern. think of it as more of a modern approach. according to the bujin guys there on that thread... even hatsumi has changed and modernized his approach.

i know and realize ninjutsu is not about flying and flips etc. i am not some child who saw a movie and thought thats what i wanted to do. i have trained with other style practicioners and i still feel my art is superior. in fact i have had practicioners try and pull me to other styles of ninjutsu, but i remain firm in my opinion and feelings. or i would have switched along time ago.

before i started my "budo" road i studied each art carefully and extensivly. in fact when i decided ninjutsu was the way to go... and after researching all the different styles... i made my decision. i still believe it was a wise one. i even remember checking out ashida kim's stuff. (before i knew better) i just couldn't look at him in his ski mask and think has this what ninjutsu become? there has to be something better.

laff, i respect your opinion, but you should admit that it is not the only one out there that could be correct.

re: how long tew trained with bussey? well you can probably ask him yourself if you want a certain amount of time. i would imagine quite extensive being that he was a chief instructor.

[This message has been edited by eman (edited 07-28-2004).]

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