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#111987 - 05/31/04 09:46 PM Blade tricks and skills
Anonymous
Unregistered


hey i just made this to see if anyone had any good tricks with the sword. for instance, i learned to spin the sword with one hand by putting the grip inbetween my fingers and by shifting it in and out of my fingers and using my thumb to push it back up once it got to the end of my hand. does any1 know of any other ones? and if this is an inapropriate topic please tell me. and just so everyone knows im only 16 so im in this more for the fun then for the art of it right now but i do wish to learn the art of the sword.

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#111988 - 05/31/04 09:58 PM Re: Blade tricks and skills
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
The problem comes with the fact that you are just in it for the fun. A bladed weapon isn't something you should just play around with. If you were only using a bokken then fine but you have already expressed the desire to use a live balde for your "fun". If you really want to get into the sword arts later try getting a couple of books and videos and learn the proper etiquette and basic postures for now. I don't advise trying to learn from a book or video but in your case it will be better than nothing.

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#111989 - 06/01/04 09:11 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Silly rabbit, tricks are for kids.

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#111990 - 06/01/04 05:30 PM Re: Blade tricks and skills
Anonymous
Unregistered


well.... at the risk of getting shunned.....i AM a kid. lol so i guess that means tricks are for me? not a little kid but still a kid

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#111991 - 06/01/04 11:06 PM Re: Blade tricks and skills
Sir5cEntss Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 10
Loc: CA
ha i'm only 17, too.

but a proper respect for an art which originated for killing is necessary...

you expressed a desire to learn this art; you'll soon learn that tricks and fancy spins, unless utilized by a master, are often foolish and meant to make up for a lack of skill...you can thank musashi for this little lesson. this guy is a sword-saint and he scoffed at tricks and spins...why would you waste time and energy spinning when you can chop the enemy down with half the effort and time?

read his book of five rings. its a good intro to sword-fighting, and a good guide for most masters as well.

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#111992 - 06/01/04 11:16 PM Re: Blade tricks and skills
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
And who said wisdom is wasted on the elder. Thank you Sir5cEntss. Silly tricks only impress people uneducated in the arts.

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#111993 - 06/08/04 03:05 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
javaman Offline
Member

Registered: 07/04/03
Posts: 179
Loc: calgary, alberta, canada
[QUOTE]Originally posted by laf7773:
The problem comes with the fact that you are just in it for the fun. A bladed weapon isn't something you should just play around with. If you were only using a bokken then fine but you have already expressed the desire to use a live balde for your "fun".[/QUOTE]

laf773, I hate to break it to you, but the only reason you should ever practice a sword art is for fun. Swords are useless in modern combat, and anyone who thinks that actual sword combat is "practical" in the modern world is a fool

Yes, sword arts do help with unarmed skills; hand-eye coordination, timing ect. but there are other ways to learn this, mainly practicing the unarmed arts dedicatedly.

Using a metal sword is completely reasonable to learn "tricks" provided it is a blunt blade, and some degree of safety precautions is taken. Note that just because a blade is not sharp, does not make it blunt, a blade that is merely blunt will still cut if swung hard and fast enough. Not just a minor scratch either, but usually a deep serious cut.

Mojo, try using one hand to swing your sword in a complete 360 degree vertical circle, cutting as close to your own side as possible, using only your wrist to control the blade.

Try switching sword hands or swithing grips behing your back, and then immediatly coming forward into some attack.

My main experience is with chinese and European sword arts. These two "tricks" I described above are considered to be very basic exercise by practioners of both these arts; whereas all practioners of Japanese sword arts I have met consider these to be useless tricks.

But these exercises are perfect for improving hand-eye coordination and timing: exactly what defenders of practicing sword arts say these arts do; but when I show them these, they are skeptical and arrogent about them. I suppose this reflects that practioners of Japanese arts (only the ones I have met though) can be arrogent and egotistiacal about the superiority of their arts. Which is just plain BS.

Mojo, learning impressive tricks and skills is one of the most fun aspects of learning a classical-weapons-based martial art. These tricks were usually not meant to be used in actual combat, but to improve basic handling and skill of the sword. And these tricks did that excedingly well.

just be sure to be carful and safe; and if someone gives you crap about how tricks are not useful in real sword combat, point out that swords are not useful in modern combat.

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#111994 - 06/08/04 03:48 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
jimp1969 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 64
Loc: Midlands UK
Javaman - I disagree.

'Tricks' with the sword are ok if you want to work in the circus, not for if you want to learn a martial art. Would you do 'tricks' when learning a martial art other than a sword art? Would any Aikido or Judo sensei worth their weight during a lesson let you do some 'tricks'?! I would hope not. And with a sword - certainly not, unsharpened or not.

And as to whether they improve your hand-eye co-ordination, perhaps they do - but that is not the point here surely as correct practice will do just the same, and just for the record - I take my Iai 'seriously', I enjoy it alright - but I certainly don't do it for 'fun'.

I can only tell you what I have learned from my Sensei - 'tricks' would never be recommended, encouraged or used even in practice when learning classic Iai...never.

You concur that other Japanese sword practitioners have told you that the tricks you describe are 'useless', but in Chinese and European fighting forms their use might be beneficial - but I have to agree with the other Japanese practitioners, when training in Iai, your tricks serve no purpose. But I assume that as you didn't listen to them - you will pay me the same compliment.

Mojo - stick to what is taught to you by a good sensei, leave the tricks for the 'showboaters'.

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#111995 - 06/08/04 07:47 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
When people do flashy tricks with a sword it only shows there ignorance of the art. Like i said before the system problems. Weapons training of any kind is still very usefull. It doesn't matter if you will never use the weapon in a self defense situation or not. Training with weapons improves your sense of distance and timing and therefore improves your empty had skills and vise versa. Weapons training can be fun but should always be taken very seriously.

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#111996 - 06/08/04 09:47 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Mojo

Swords, bokken, bo, kama, clubs, guns, knives, etc.

If it can injure or kill you or others you should not be "playing" with it or doing "tricks" with it.

Weapons of ANY sort are NOT toys and should not be "played" with.

If you don't understand that you should not be handeling weapons.

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#111997 - 06/08/04 10:04 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Javaman

That is exactly the kind of jackass, jackaround attitude that makes the entire non-martial arts community think we are all a bunch of Mighty Morphin Power Rangers "Wannabes."

Handeling things that can hurt you or others with the attitude of "hey everybody look at ME."
Is often the first step in a call to 911.

I have studied saber fenceing (western) and train with a guy that studies Chinese Wu Shu--a very acrobatic art, that has many "flashy" moves with the blade.

My fenceing teacher was absoultly intolerent of ANY "jacking around" with the saber--fastest way to get your butt kicked out of class was to act in a (I'm quoteing here) "childish, immature manner" with a blade.

My buddies Wu-Shu teacher spends ALOT of time making sure that his students understand that even the blunt weapons are VERY DANGEROUS to be "playing" with.
He backs up his statements with examples of serious injuries caused by people doing "tricks" with potential dangerous weapons.

Look at it this way--a couple of Hollywood guys )Brandon Lee and John Huxcum) got killed by handguns loaded with BLANKS for gods sakes.

Bottom line is that weapons of ANY kind should be handled with respect and care.

Weapons of ANY sort should not be "played with."

People that don't get that should not be handeling weapons.

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#111998 - 06/08/04 03:28 PM Re: Blade tricks and skills
Lokkan-Do Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 1411
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Suppose your thumb comes off?

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#111999 - 06/08/04 03:45 PM Re: Blade tricks and skills
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Cut myself sharpening the Katana the other day. My blade is so sharp it's scary. What a beautiful weapon, still get goose bumps when working with my katana. We have two beautiful kata's that we do while practing, made them up from a combination of basic Korean and Japanese karate kata's and mixed the blade into the form.

[This message has been edited by schanne (edited 06-08-2004).]

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#112000 - 06/08/04 03:56 PM Re: Blade tricks and skills
javaman Offline
Member

Registered: 07/04/03
Posts: 179
Loc: calgary, alberta, canada
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:

I have studied saber fenceing (western) and train with a guy that studies Chinese Wu Shu--a very acrobatic art, that has many "flashy" moves with the blade.
[/QUOTE]

That is exactly what I study, as well as European renaissance sword arts, and in both those arts, these "flashy" moves are commonly taught in all schools of wushu, and I know injuries do occur, but injuries also occur in kendo, iado and other arts that do not use "flashy" moves.

The basic question is: when does a move with a sword cross the line from exercise, or technique, to trick? What mojo described in his original post does not seem overly flashy or useless, and the exercises I described are not either.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:

My buddies Wu-Shu teacher spends ALOT of time making sure that his students understand that even the blunt weapons are VERY DANGEROUS to be "playing" with.
He backs up his statements with examples of serious injuries caused by people doing "tricks" with potential dangerous weapons.
[/QUOTE]

That's good, any teacher worth his spit will caution his students very carfully when practicing with weapons; whether his/her students are doing so-called "tricks" or not. That should be expected and demanded by all involved of the teacher. But does this teacher still expect his students to go home and practice these "flashy" moves with a sword, carfully and safely? Again, that is something that should be expected; if you are in a martial art, you should practice what you learn in the dojo at home or some other place away from the dojo as well.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jimp1969:

'Tricks' with the sword are ok if you want to work in the circus, not for if you want to learn a martial art. Would you do 'tricks' when learning a martial art other than a sword art? Would any Aikido or Judo sensei worth their weight during a lesson let you do some 'tricks'?! I would hope not. And with a sword - certainly not, unsharpened or not.
[/QUOTE]

Many unarmed martial arts teach techniques that are tricks. I don't have any experience with judo but what about "The unbending arm" demonstration I have seen in several aikido dojos, that is a trick.
What about a spinning axe kick? Useless in a real confrontation, but lots of fun to do in the dojo. That's a trick. All martial arts have little aspects of them that are for fun, and to a slight extent to let the students and teachers show off their skills.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jimp1969:

And as to whether they improve your hand-eye co-ordination, perhaps they do - but that is not the point here surely as correct practice will do just the same, and just for the record - I take my Iai 'seriously', I enjoy it alright - but I certainly don't do it for 'fun'.
[/QUOTE]

It's good that you said that, because in my last post I said:

Yes, sword arts do help with unarmed skills; hand-eye coordination, timing ect. but there are other ways to learn this, mainly practicing the unarmed arts dedicatedly.


So as you can see, I completely agree with that.

And I never said that any martial art should not be taken seriously, It should be taken seriously, and you should have fun with it. My only beef is with people who actually think they are somehow going to get in an actual sword fight one day, and seem to try to prepare for it by taking sword lessons.

And if anyone thinks that these techniques I have described make the martial arts look foolish; these techniques ARE the sword arts; so if that's the case, then I guess it's the art that makes itself look foolish. Although the only times I have seen any art look stupid it was because of bad students and even worse instructors. Not because some student performed a flashy move with a sword in a safe, controlled, and correct way. That just looks cool.

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#112001 - 06/08/04 04:22 PM Re: Blade tricks and skills
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Javaman

Look at the "trick" described by mojo in his first post.

Sorry, I must say that the move mojo describes seems pretty useless to me.

Perhaps you would care to offer an application??

I don't think I am getting thu so we should just agree to dis-agree.

I have a real problem with useing weapons--ANY WEAPONS, in order, as you put it "to look cool"

Weapons of ANY kind should be treated with respect.

If it can hurt you or others then you should NOT be doing "tricks" "playing with it" or to "look cool."

Anyone that has grown up around firearms knows this.

If you don't, you simply should not be handleing weapons--period.

From my own perspective (and that goes for the either asian or western arts) "playing" with a weapon is foolish.

Its dangerous for the user and others, it makes the person doing it look like an ass, it does no good as a training tool, etc.

Like I said before a person that does not understand that has NO BUSINESS handeling weapons of ANY sort.

Esp not to "look cool."

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#112002 - 06/08/04 04:52 PM Re: Blade tricks and skills
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Javaman,

"laf773, I hate to break it to you, but the only reason you should ever practice a sword art is for fun. Swords are useless in modern combat, and anyone who thinks that actual sword combat is "practical" in the modern world is a fool

Yes, sword arts do help with unarmed skills; hand-eye coordination, timing ect. but there are other ways to learn this, mainly practicing the unarmed arts dedicatedly."

These two statements contradict each other. How can sword training be " useless in modern combat" but still help with hand eye coordination, timing and distance? Aren't these 3 very important things in combat of any kind?

Yes there are other ways to learn these skills but why limit yourself? If you think weapons training is ONLY for fun then you are the fool, not us. While people may enjoy training in the Japanese sword arts, the training, respect and diciplain come first.

How is this "trick" he discribes in his first post not seem overly flashy or useless? Spinning a katana is not a technique, reversing his grip maybe but that doesn't sound like what he ws discribing.

I don't know of anyone who i've met that is actually training under legitamate instructors that think they will ever get into a sword fight. Reducing iaido or kenjutsu to simple fun and games is disrespectfull to the arts. They do serve a purpose.

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#112003 - 06/09/04 10:48 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
jimp1969 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 64
Loc: Midlands UK
Javaman, you said
"My only beef is with people who actually think they are somehow going to get in an actual sword fight one day, and seem to try to prepare for it by taking sword lessons."

If most of the people YOU have met that do Iai imagine they are going to get into a sword fight one day (as you suggest) - err then I think you have been meeting some 'dick heads' that's all - they just happen to be dickheads with swords.

You'll probably find these are the sort of guys also doing 'tricks'...

Keep it real gents.
Get a Sensei, Find a good Dojo, practice, practice, practice.

Do what you will Mojo but I'd rather spend my available training time doing the art - you can never learn enough so why waste time doing tricks, that's what I think anyway.

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#112004 - 06/10/04 01:27 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
javaman Offline
Member

Registered: 07/04/03
Posts: 179
Loc: calgary, alberta, canada
What I mean't was, just because some particular move or technique is out of the ordinary, or would not be used in any actual sword fight, does not mean it's a useless trick.

What about board breaking? What about tameshigiri (sp?) (that might not even be the correct name, but I mean test cutting on rolled up mats); what about doing the splits? These are all "tricks" to some extent or another! And yet they are all part of the martial arts. At least in some schools, and no doing these things does not make a school a mcdojo. Or else the shaolin Temple, all Okinawan dojos and all kenjutsu schools are mcdojos.

I'd be willing to bet money, that when the first iai dojo opened up, some old kenjutsu student or instructor dismissed it as being "useless tricks" to impress people. the same thing probably happened with Kendo. So yes I would do tricks if I was in another martial art. These tricks are the martial art.

[QUOTE] Originally posted by cxt

I have a real problem with useing weapons--ANY WEAPONS, in order, as you put it "to look cool"

Weapons of ANY kind should be treated with respect.

If it can hurt you or others then you should NOT be doing "tricks" "playing with it" or to "look cool."

Anyone that has grown up around firearms knows this.
[/QUOTE]


I said to use blunt swords, so that is in fact a replica weapon, a fake as it were.

I did grow up around firearms, I have owned, shot and trained proffesionally with them my whole life. And I would never do a trick with a real gun, unloaded or not. I might with some kind of plastic replica, just for kicks, but that's it. Oh, wait I've done western quickdraw... That's a silly trick isn't it. But I did it safely, on a real range where all proper safety precautions were taken. So that would make it ok I hope. But I would never do any fancy hand or grip switching with a real gun, or twirls or spins or anything. That's just real stupid.

And I never said to not treat weapons with respect. You should, they are dangerous.

[QUOTE] Originally posted by laff773:

"laf773, I hate to break it to you, but the only reason you should ever practice a sword art is for fun. Swords are useless in modern combat, and anyone who thinks that actual sword combat is "practical" in the modern world is a fool

Yes, sword arts do help with unarmed skills; hand-eye coordination, timing ect. but there are other ways to learn this, mainly practicing the unarmed arts dedicatedly."

These two statements contradict each other. How can sword training be " useless in modern combat" but still help with hand eye coordination, timing and distance? Aren't these 3 very important things in combat of any kind?
[/QUOTE]


I said swords are useless in modern combat; not sword training. Lots of things improve hand eye coordination, timing and distancing: Football, Baseball, hockey, darts, tennis, video games, typing... many more. But I would not rely on those skills to help in any sort of combat or street confrontation. That's not to say don't do those things, but do them for the same reason you should do sword arts, appreciation of history, self improvement, discipline, fitness and yes, fun.

By the way I thought of another sword trick; this one is from an advanced tai chi sword form that I have practiced for a number of years:

with the sword in a normal right hand grip, point facing upwards, at about armpit-height on your right side; slash downward and vertically until the sword is parrallel to the ground held slightly above waist height. Drop the sword in place and catch it in a reversed grip in your left hand, make a quick stab forward and then another stab behind you on the left side of your body. Then swing the sword vertically in a slash until it ends up facing point up on the left side of your body, then, keeping the sword in place, reach around your face with your right hand and grab the sword from your left with a normal grip (so that your right thumb is at the top of the hilt)

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#112005 - 06/10/04 06:19 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
jimp1969 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 64
Loc: Midlands UK
Java

Tameshiwari is used to demonstrate Karate - the same as cutting through bamboo mats in Iai demonstrates that art. These are done to get you used to the impact of hitting/cutting, to help measure the power of your techniques and to develop accuracy whilst using maximum force. They are not 'tricks' but you thinking they are may explain why you are saying what you are saying.

If I remember rightly - this post started with Mojo talking about spinning the sword in the palm of his hand. The majority of us have been advising him NOT to do this, to take the art more seriously than that, not to follow this type of practice. We have been advising him to concentrate on the proper art, and that what he has been doing just isn't a 'safe' way to learn a sword art.

Jave - Spinning a sword in the palm of his hand is just simply bollocks.

Mojo said in his post 'I want to learn the 'art' of the sword - let's encourage him to do just that.

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#112006 - 06/10/04 07:58 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Javaman

Board breaking and mat-cutting are not "spinning a sword between your fingers" like a cheerleaders baton--as mojo posted.
No "trick' but training tools with specific application.
ie. Cutting of material to improve the ability to cut.

Still waiting for you to post an application for this "trick."

And no western "quick draw" was not a "trick"
it was a gunfighting tactic.
Used on a number of occasions to get a firearm into play quickly.

Thats not a "trick" of the type mojo described.

More to the point-"blunt" of "fake" weapon its still dangerous.

A bokken (that would be a wooden sword) in the right or in this case the WRONG hands is a very dangerous thing.

Favorite quote on the subject (can't remember who said it) is "If you don't think a bokken can hurt someone--you don't get to use one in MY dojo."

Need I point out that doing tricks with a "fake" blade only reimforces bad habits when and if you handle a "real" one??

On the subject of firearms--please be aware that Brandon Lee and John Eric Huxcum--both actors were killed by BLANKS for gods sake.

So if as you claim, you have "trained professionally" with firearms you should be doing everything you can to get people TO TREAT WEAPONS OF ANY SORT WITH RESPECT AND CARE.

NOT ENCOURGEING CHILDREN TO "PLAY" WITH THEM, PERFORM "TRICKS" WITH THEM OR AS YOU PUT, TO "LOOK COOL."

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#112007 - 06/10/04 09:38 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Javaman,
"What about board breaking?"

Used in some schools to teach students proper focus and the ability to hit a target with proper technique.

"What about tameshigiri (sp?) (that might not even be the correct name, but I mean test cutting on rolled up mats);"

Used to teach students proper for and provide a feel for cutting. It is also used to test new blades.

"what about doing the splits?"

Training tool for flexability.

"I'd be willing to bet money, that when the first iai dojo opened up, some old kenjutsu student or instructor dismissed it as being "useless tricks" to impress people. the same thing probably happened with Kendo. So yes I would do tricks if I was in another martial art. These tricks are the martial art."

You act like iaido is something new. Iaido dates back to the mid 1400's and was developed in part by KENJUTSU practitioners. The same with kendo.

"Lots of things improve hand eye coordination, timing and distancing: Football, Baseball, hockey, darts, tennis, video games, typing... many more."

Yes they can teach you timing and hand eye coordination to some extent, but there is a difference. These are sports and games, the martial arts (originally) was not. Football in it's intent is not deadly, sword arts in there intent are.

"But I would not rely on those skills to help in any sort of combat or street confrontation."

Neither would i.

"By the way I thought of another sword trick; this one is from an advanced tai chi sword form that I have practiced for a number of years:"

I hate to break it to you but European and Chinese systems are very different than Japanese systems. What may be a legitamate technique in a Chinese art may be concidered a trick in a Japanese system. Part of the purpose of iaido is to strip away the un needed movements. All the tricks you described would be considered un needed movements or "tricks".

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#112008 - 06/10/04 03:39 PM Re: Blade tricks and skills
javaman Offline
Member

Registered: 07/04/03
Posts: 179
Loc: calgary, alberta, canada
Yes, I realize that board breaking trains for correct allignment and stuff, and tameshigiri trains for proper cutting.

But in regards to test cutting, I would consider that a trick, because noone is ever going to actually have to cut someone with a sword; so training to do so is well; pointless in any sort of tactical sense. But not pointless in that it helps in the art and with all that coordination and stuff we all agreed was important earlier. That was more the point of what I was saying, I'm sorry if it wasn't that clear.

cxt, I realize that chinese and western arts are different from japanese arts; but Mojo never said he was using a japanese sword, nor did he say he wanted to learn tricks that come from traditional iai techniques. I just wanted to show him some fun techniques that may be considered tricks but will still improve his swordsmanship and martial abilities. And if the trick he describes doing improves his dexterity, timing and comfort level with his sword, well then that is a big help to any sword art.

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#112009 - 06/10/04 07:09 PM Re: Blade tricks and skills
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Javaman are you paying attention? No one said tameshigiri was "test cutting". It's BLADE testing. As in when a new blade is forged and sharpened it must be tested. The best test for a cutting blade is tameshigiri.

If you had read any of mojo's other posts on other threads you would know he was referring to katana "tricks". He has expressed his interests in the Japanese sword arts.

You keep pointing out things you call tricks but are actually valuable training aids. What exactly is it you study and does you sensei/sifu explain why you are doing these things?

"I'd be willing to bet money, that when the first iai dojo opened up, some old kenjutsu student or instructor dismissed it as being "useless tricks" to impress people. the same thing probably happened with Kendo. So yes I would do tricks if I was in another martial art. These tricks are the martial art."

This statement alone tells me you have no concept of Japanese sword arts. You seem to have a very skewed idea of what is a trick and what is valuable training. The simple FACT is you are giving out bad advise and trivializing any sword art or martial art for that matter. Any thing that can be considered a weapon, blunt or not, should always be handled with care and not flailed around like some sort of toy.

Another point on your lack of attention, I am the one who made the statement of Japanese arts being different from European or Chinese arts.

You obviously don't understand the connection between empty hand and weapons training. It's not just hand eye coordination. Timing, distance, proper movement and body alignment are multiplied with weapons training. So it is not "pointless in a tactical sense". It is a very effective and useful training tool. You say you have had years of training but your mentality toward the arts isn't showing it.

"I just wanted to show him some fun techniques that may be considered tricks but will still improve his swordsmanship and martial abilities. And if the trick he describes doing improves his dexterity, timing and comfort level with his sword, well then that is a big help to any sword art."

Tricks will not improve swordmanship, it will impare it. Your training bad muscle memory when you do these sort of tricks that takes more time to undo than if you only followed proper instruction in the first place.

What is going to happen to his "comfort level" when he injurs himself or someone around him while doing "tricks"?

Sport karate and sport tae kwon do may be all fun and games but when it comes to self defense and weapons training it is serious and should always be respectfull. Not to say you can't have fun and enjoy it but flashy tricks have been considered disrespectful and a sign of ignorance by every serious martial artist i know.

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#112010 - 06/10/04 11:43 PM Re: Blade tricks and skills
Sir5cEntss Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 10
Loc: CA
Javaman-
Since when is any kick or cut simply a trick-

"What about a spinning axe kick? Useless in a real confrontation, but lots of fun to do in the dojo. That's a trick. All martial arts have little aspects of them that are for fun, and to a slight extent to let the students and teachers show off their skills."

Dude, i can respect your guts for posting your thoughts, but dude, that's serious pretty funny.

yeah so you're saying that when this kick was developed for practical application in fights, they were thinking, yeah this looks sexy- i'll show this off and get some chicks...?! DUDE don't disrespect the masters of old with your silly nonsensical interpretations that you pose as facts. oh geez. hahaha you're saying that martial arts is inherently entertainment based, and that wars long time ago were fought and won based on which side could look cooler? LOL


oh, and my thoughts exactly, laf.

lessons learned from weapons training and empty-handed training are cross-applicable.

old school martial arts are for fun? don't make me laugh...if you had a sword and you were getting attacked by someone, wouldn't you use it?

machiavelli is old school, we still read him.
plato, socrates, confucius, sun tzu, musashi, the bible...aren't these all old?

yet they deserve respect.

yeah you can say, but sword fighting lacks real world applications in today's society. don't gimme that bull. you're thinking of it as a sport or game. there are sooo many people who live and die by the sword.

and knife fighting is an extension and variation of sword-fighting's basic tenets.

and the life-lessons and inner-strenght gained from training with swords ina life or death mindset are nothing to be laughed at.

hey, look at the title of this forum: FIGHTING ARTS. not PLAY-FIGHTING arts.

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#112011 - 06/11/04 01:33 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
javaman Offline
Member

Registered: 07/04/03
Posts: 179
Loc: calgary, alberta, canada
My training is at
www.shaolinwushu.ca

As well as with the association of renaissance martial arts (ARMA)

sir5cents
You seem to have history confused with practicality. Any good martial art instructor will tell you to avoid flashy moves, like the spinning axe kick I mentioned; in any actual street fight. Just like these sword tricks, these moves help with other, more practical fighting moves. If you wish to bring this up furthur, there is a "high kicks" post somewhere on the self defense forum.
Just because a move is historically correct, does not mean it is completely practical. Even the old masters were human and blind hero worship of them is a diservice to them all. If your instructor tells you to use high axe kicks in a fight, go ahead; But I would practice them (and I do) knowing that I would never use them in a fight, but for sparring and to improve other kicks; and because that kick is part of the martial art. So you can't fully learn the martial art without learning that kick.

And yes if I had a sword and was getting attacked I would use it to defend myself. But that is not going to happen. At least not if I can help it. Although I suppose I could be jumped on my way to or from training when I did have a sword with me... But since I only use blunt, wood or extra flexible swords to practice, it would'nt be that much of a help anyway. I'm only going to say this one more time: Swords are not used to fight with anymore. That is not an opinion, that is a fact. There are isolated incidences check this out:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/Fringe.htm

But i'll bet there are 30X more deaths from assaults with baseball bats in the world than there are with swords.

And as for that

[QUOTE]
there are so many people who live and die by the sword
[/QUOTE]


People may devote their lives to properly preserving sword arts, but again: They do not actually fight with swords! It is not the same as it once was. Times have changed since feudal japan, deal with it.

And I have trained in knife fighting, and it is very diferent from training with swords. But my sword training did help.

And I never "laughed at" any of the lessons taught by sword arts. I respect and belief in those lessons.

laff773
[QUOTE]
Any thing that can be considered a weapon, blunt or not, should always be handled with care and not flailed around like some sort of toy.

[/QUOTE]


In any sword art, you are going to be flailing your sword around. That is way to learn the art. Remember you have to swing a sword to hit someone with it, and you have to hit someone with a sword to kill them with it. Which is the whole point of swords existence.

[QUOTE]
You obviously don't understand the connection between empty hand and weapons training. It's not just hand eye coordination. Timing, distance, proper movement and body alignment are multiplied with weapons training. So it is not "pointless in a tactical sense". It is a very effective and useful training tool. You say you have had years of training but your mentality toward the arts isn't showing it.
[/QUOTE]


I said many things improve hand eye coordination, timing and distancing. I didn't just say hand eye coordination.

And I could understand how flashy tricks could be seen as disrespectful to the art; but only if they were mislabled as the art. If he were to just say "this trick isn't part of a martial art, it's just fun to do" then that would be no harm to the art.

My basic statement is this: You are not actually going to get into a sword fight EVER! Training in the sword arts will improve your unarmed training, but don't think because you do a sword art it will automatically transfer to unarmed fighting; it will help but it will not replace. And since you will never get into a sword fight, your reasons for studying the sword arts should be: Apreciation of history, fitness, self improvement, discipline, improvement of unarmed techniques (notice I said "improvement", not "to learn") and just plain fun; not because you will actually have to fight with a sword someday; you won't. So as long as you follow these reasons, learn all the tricks you want, but do it safely and carefully. And keep in mind that even if this were a time when swords were used in fighting, these tricks were not. Just as certain techniques in unarmed martial arts are taught but never meant to be used in actual fighting. Think of these tricks as excercises: to improve timing, coordination, dexterity, distancing and all the other skills useful in unarmed combat.

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#112012 - 06/11/04 02:17 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
laf773, I hate to break it to you, but the only reason you should ever practice a sword art is for fun.

And since you will never get into a sword fight, your reasons for studying the sword arts should be: Apreciation of history, fitness, self improvement, discipline, improvement of unarmed techniques (notice I said improvement, not to learn) and just plain fun; not because you will actually have to fight with a sword someday; you won't.

I thought the ONLY reason was for fun? You keep bringing up the fact that you will never use a sword in a fight as if someone is arguing that with you. No one is. No one said weapons training will replace unarmed training. I am not mistaken, weapons training WILL automatically transfer to unarmed training Provided you are not wasting your time with tricks. The fact that you don't understand this concept is what tells me you don't know what you are talking about.

In any sword art, you are going to be flailing your sword around.

Again an area you don't know what you are talking about. Iaido are sets of CONTROLED movements designed to dispatch your opponent with a minimum of moves.

And keep in mind that even if this were a time when swords were used in fighting, these tricks were not.

These tricks were not taught in traditional Japanese arts. They are the manifestations of poor martial artists to impress people ignorant of the arts.

Think of these tricks as excercises: to improve timing, coordination, dexterity, distancing and all the other skills useful in unarmed combat.

If you really believe this then why do you continue to call them useless in a fight. Just because you don't use something in a fight doesn't mean it hasn't prepared you for it. The sword tricks you describe are counter productive.

The fact still remains you are passing off bad advise in a subject you are unfamiliar with.

Just curious, how old are you and how long have you been training in wushu?

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#112013 - 06/11/04 03:35 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
Kyoku Offline
Member

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 184
Loc: Dubbo, NSW, Australia
Although you may never actually get into a sword fight with someone, is there not the possibility that you may have a bokken in your vehicle? I carry mine beside me. In my occasions multiple attackers will flee once they realise you have a weapon, and if you know how to do it, can spin it around a little, this could also scare them. Then also, if they did attack you anway, surely a knowledge of the use of the weapon will help you disable the attackers.

Granted you might not always have a bokken with you, but what about a decent sized stick, crowbar, fencepost etc.

Training in other weapons would also help you be able to use whatever you can get your hands on. And failing that, there is always the empty hand that goes along with weapons training.

Just stating the fact that being trained in the art can help in other areas, excluding footwork, hand eye co-ordination, and other previously mentioned areas.

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#112014 - 06/12/04 01:50 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
javaman Offline
Member

Registered: 07/04/03
Posts: 179
Loc: calgary, alberta, canada
I kept stating the fact that you will never actually use a sword in a fight because it seemed like Sir5cEntss was disagreeing. And I meant that weapons training will transfer to unarmed combat only if you are actually training in unarmed combat aswell.

Learning a weapon art is not learning an empty hand art. Both will aid each other but they will only do that if both are trained.

And as for this
[QUOTE]
Again an area you don't know what you are talking about. Iaido are sets of CONTROLED movements designed to dispatch your opponent with a minimum of moves
[/QUOTE]


Sets of controlled movements eh? that's exactly what all these "tricks" are too. I knew that. And I knew iaido was a set of controlled movements too. I was trying real hard earlier today to think of a weapon art that did not use controlled sets of movements; I think kali might not but I don't know for sure. I do know about japanese sword arts. And since flail means To wave or swing vigorously; thrash: then Iaido is flailing a sword around.

And just because these tricks were not taught in traditional japanese arts does not mean that they were:
[QUOTE]
the manifestations of poor martial artists to impress people ignorant of the arts.
[/QUOTE]

All that means is they are not part of the traditionaly japanese arts; And I never said they were. In fact, I was very specific about how it is wrong to label these as part of a martial art if they are not.

These exercises were taught in Chinese, Philipeno (I don't know alot about kali or escrima, but i checked with a friend who does kali and he said he was taught to quickly switch sword hands and other things), French, Spanish, Korean, Italian, Native American and Vietnamese arts. All of these arts were very combat effective and used effectively for hundreds of years.

Oh, by the way I'm 25. I have been in wushu for 4 years, I have been a member of ARMA for 3 and I have my first dan ranking in Aikido. Which included a fair bit of iaido. I know you only asked that because it says "student" on my profile. I am a student; I will be recieving my masters degree in computer science one year from now. And I currently have a minor in Sentential and differential logic; so I know my posts make sense. Even if I do confuse who I quote once in a while.

How old are you and how long have you been studying iaido?

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#112015 - 06/12/04 01:50 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
Sir5cEntss Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 10
Loc: CA
hey buddy-javaman.

get a grip. don't get so defensive. when you do that, you tend to contradict yourself. end result- you nullify ANY good argument you MIGHT have had, and yuo end up looking foolish.

ok, let's look at TRICKS and SKILLS from the bottom up. tricks, by defintion, and connotation, are merely instruments of entertainment, designed to distract and amuse. on the other hand, skills are used in fights, not necessarily directly, but nevertheless used, in conceptual form or not.

tell me, how often do you use a structured, full-movement block or punch in sparring? NEVER. such exaggerated movements are unwieldy and illogical. nevertheless the basic concept of the move, practiced over and over again, proves its value in a fight. the same goes for your "tricks". you can NEVER pass something off as worthless or irrelevent. such an attitude is entirely disrespectful of the art. what does an art teach? self-reliance, if you get down to it. how can you be self-reliant if you discard things as stupid and you never take the time to truly delve into something and discover its true value?

you're so cocky and full of yourself. take a step back- try to see the big picture. you cannot ever label things in life so simply. labels misguide and mislead; nothing is ever balck and white. just because you percieve a kick to be worthless never means that that particular kick is outdated or irrelevent. you're basing your assumptions on your particular experiences and what limited and biased information you have thus far found. so do us all a favor, and before you leap to conclusions about ANYTHING, take a moment for introspection. it's gonna save a lot of trouble. yeah, i sound preachy. but i've done this before, too, and i just feel like an idiot afterwards. i don't care if you're older than me or younger. i don't care if you can kick bruce lee's ass. i especially don't care to hear you say that sword-fighting is stupid, for that matter. so just do us all a favor, and give up. laf and i, among various others, have proved our point time and time again. all you're doing is backtracking, revising your thoughts, and bullshitting. peace out, Mr. Shao-lin.

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#112016 - 06/12/04 02:01 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
Sir5cEntss Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 10
Loc: CA
man, a 25 year-old? haha grow up dude. stop stating your credentials like you're something. its again with the labels. hahaha! man, you're like trying to force your ideas on us with CREDENTIALS! hahaha. you could go to HAHVAHD for all i care.

dude, and if you've studied martial arts soooo extensively, then you would understand that nothing is ever obsolete. you learn concepts, strenght, and other valuable lessons from even obsolete forms. so you don't use a sword or a spinning ax kick when you fight. GREAT. not many people do. but no one prepares just for something that happens all the time. there are always chances that something random is gonna happen. isn't that what insurance protects against? so your sword-fighting, your obscure, even irrelevent forms, even if they don't have an immediate practical application, can benefit the user immeasurably. you can check all my other frickin posts for details on that.

and dude, don't post your age to try to lord over me. i know i'm 17. so you're, what, 8 years older than me? grow up some, and then come and tell me something. heck, we can even argue logic and philosophy. bring it, yo.

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#112017 - 06/12/04 02:04 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
Sir5cEntss Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 10
Loc: CA
oh, and your posts DON'T make sense. you backtrack and revise a lot. all those logical contradictions annoy me. you must have trouble writing programs...do you tell the computer to do something, then immediately tell it to do the opposite?

ask anyone, its not just me...

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#112018 - 06/12/04 02:56 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
javaman Offline
Member

Registered: 07/04/03
Posts: 179
Loc: calgary, alberta, canada
I only mentioned my age and experience because laf7773 asked.

And I never said I was better than anyone, knew more than anyone, was tougher, stronger, faster or more skilled than anyone.

And I never insulted anyone, the closest I came was saying "foolish" in my first post for this topic. But that was not directed at anyone on the forum.

But in your last three posts you have said of me and too me:
[QUOTE]
you're so cocky and full of yourself.

your basing your assumptions on your particular experiences and what limited and biased information

yuo end up looking foolish

all you're doing is backtracking, revising your thoughts, and bullshitting.

haha grow up dude

don't post your age to try to lord over me

your posts DON'T make sense

you must have trouble writing programs

peace out, Mr. Shao-lin
[/QUOTE]


So you've insulted me, my age, my Martial Art, and my career. pretty good, since you've never even met me and I never said anything bad against you. I'm surprised you didn't say something about my mother in there.

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#112019 - 06/12/04 05:00 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
oldmatricks Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/12/04
Posts: 12
Well java did have a point there even though you maybe right you are showing your age by haveing no respect to java's opinion.
"yo"

But as far as having fun goes..... if you don't have fun learning all the aspects of iaido that includes respect. Then it's prolly not the art for you.

But go ahead swing that sword around stud ... then you can be just like uma thurman. Yea woohoooo...

I do have to agree with java though..... If you are gonna learn the art of Any martial art you better be having fun.

But not by cheap tricks or tips. The only reason i say that is nowdays a couple of kids with cheap guns can take out mass groups of people... I mean it's really not practicle to learn a sword art these days it's more of a hobby.

But then agian if you think of it as "Just a hobby" then agian you prolly shouldn't be learning the arts.

It has to be a passion a dream a desire to learn and become better you have to have passion to practice and become a more spirutal person.

I have no idea about swords and the art and i'm not giving any advice to anyone i just understand that there are some things that people hold dear and for others to trespass apon that with ideas of cheap tricks is an abomination.

Oh it's 5 am in the morning sry for the spelling errors.

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#112020 - 06/12/04 10:16 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
jimp1969 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 64
Loc: Midlands UK
Java - apologies if you feel you and your art have been offended - please understand when people talk of tricks with swords - that offends us an our art too.

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#112021 - 06/12/04 10:18 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
jimp1969 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 64
Loc: Midlands UK
Apologies Java if you have been offended by what has been written here - please understand though....when people talk of doing 'tricks' with swords - that offends us and are art too. Hope you can see that.

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#112022 - 06/12/04 10:19 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
jimp1969 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 64
Loc: Midlands UK
Oops! Browser refresh!!!

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#112023 - 06/12/04 11:53 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Javaman,
"I do know about japanese sword arts."

Your previous statement shows otherwise.

" I'd be willing to bet money, that when the first iai dojo opened up, some old kenjutsu student or instructor dismissed it as being "useless tricks" to impress people. the same thing probably happened with Kendo."

"And since flail means To wave or swing vigorously; thrash: then Iaido is flailing a sword around."

Try posting the full definition. Not jst the bit tat supports your opinion. Why not this one?
"To move vigorously or erratically; thrash about"
Your implying iaido teaches "tricks", you have stated tricks are not preactical nor a part of the art, but iaido does not teach tricks. The controled movements of iaido are a far cry from what you are describing.

"Oh, by the way I'm 25. I have been in wushu for 4 years, I have been a member of ARMA for 3 and I have my first dan ranking in Aikido. Which included a fair bit of iaido. I know you only asked that because it says "student" on my profile."

No i asked because you keep contradicting your self and that leads me to think you have either had minimal training or bad training. I asked your age because it looked like you were simply lashing out because you too are guilty of only wanting to practice "tricks" and not wanting to fully understand the art for what it is.

"French, Spanish, Korean, Italian, Native American and Vietnamese arts. All of these arts were very combat effective and used effectively for hundreds of years."

No one is arguing that with you. We are talking about Japanese sword arts. Since you are the only one that didn't pick up on this is why i asked if you were paying attention. Your tricks will not work in a Japanese art because a kaana is used in a different manner than most any other sword. Since you say you have had a fair bit of iaido training you should have known that, and that these tricks do not apply.

" How old are you and how long have you been studying iaido?"

I'm 31 and have been the MA's since i was 8. Training with swords for about 10 years, iaido about 6 years. I've been lucky enough to visit and study with, however for brief periods at a time, with very knowledgeable and skilled martial artists, swordsmen and swordsmiths in Japan, Hong Kong and Singapore over the last 6 years.

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#112024 - 06/12/04 09:56 PM Re: Blade tricks and skills
Sir5cEntss Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 10
Loc: CA
i might have been a bit too harsh last night, and i apologize for that. but i DID respect java's opinion- no doubt about that, i even mentioned it. i just went about it the wrong way.

however, i still stand by my original comments, minus the vulgarities and insults. i shouldn't have made it so personal.

we cool, javaman?


[This message has been edited by Sir5cEntss (edited 06-12-2004).]

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#112025 - 06/13/04 02:28 PM Re: Blade tricks and skills
javaman Offline
Member

Registered: 07/04/03
Posts: 179
Loc: calgary, alberta, canada
Yeah we're cool. I would hate to make an enemy of a fellow martial artist, especially one I have never met, over something so trivial as this little disagreement.

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#112026 - 06/13/04 08:18 PM Re: Blade tricks and skills
Kyoku Offline
Member

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 184
Loc: Dubbo, NSW, Australia
*applauds*

Jolly good show chaps.

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#112027 - 06/15/04 06:35 PM Re: Blade tricks and skills
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well I think ill add my opinion as well maybe

To be honest, I have no problems for people practising tricks

I mean I started out being intrested in the whole sword fighting scene after watching films like Star wars and im sure some people also started in a similar fasion...

But I also respect the view that to people that practise Kendo ,Iaido etc its more than just sword fighting and tricks are of little use in a sword fight.

But how can tricks be so wrong, if your sensable about it? Use a broomstick! A little expermintation helps you develop your skills. Its also what got me started in the whole thing so it must have something going for it.

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#112028 - 06/16/04 08:01 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Silversnake

"How can tricks be so wrong."

Simple--if you actually have to ask the question "how can doing tricks be so wrong" then you:

A-Just don't get it. Despite all the efforts of folks to explain EXACTLY why "tricks" and weapons of any kind don't belong in the same sentence.

B-Should NOT be allowed to handle any kind of weapon useable item.

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#112029 - 06/16/04 11:30 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
First of all, I think everyone needs to think of swords as a gun that cannot be unloaded. They are extremely dangerous 24/7.

Second, I'd like to point out that all serious sword art practitioners know full well that they will never use what they study so hard. We are aware of that fact, thank you. That said we do it for a variety of reasons. Everyone has their own. For many it's as simple as wanting to participate in the preservation of one of the few remaining oral traditions. The problem is that since no one will ever use their techniques in combat, they cannot be verified.

This is a very significant problem within the sword arts. Technique creep must be avoided at all cost, and that requires that we train with the attitude that our lives very much will depend on these techniques one day. If you do not train in this way then you are dancing, not training. This attitude of, train like you mean it, has a tendency to spill into our posts a bit. Those of us who train know what another sword student means when they write this kind of stuff. Sometimes, outsiders don't get it, and we sound like raving lunatics who hope to get into a fight one day.

But yeah, tricks are good for impressing the ignorant masses, but useless for true training. Folks involved in legitimate traditions will not be impressed, and will think very poorly of you indeed. Some will in fact be offended.

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#112030 - 06/17/04 05:11 PM Re: Blade tricks and skills
Anonymous
Unregistered


it's nice that everyone has their theology on why you should NOT practice tricks. So far as I have seen, Javaman is the only person who has actually answered Mojo's question. If you wish to post your theology on why people should NOT do tricks, make your own subject and post it there.

But since you people seem so bent on defeating each other in this post, hopefully what I have to say will cease your endless quarrel.

When I first came into Aikido a long long time ago, tricks were what drew me there. Once I realized there wasn't much to the tricks, and that the art itself was awesome, I studied the arts and have come a long way. It will probably be the same with Mojo. But now I am getting off my point. As I said, tricks drew me into the matial arts. If you go around telling everyone that tricks are stupid and useless, that takes away their motivation and reason to join the martial and sword arts. That's like spoiling a movie or video game before the person has watched or played it.

Oh and by the way, Javaman, I give you props on taking on just about everyone here alone.


ph34r m4 l33tn3ss

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#112031 - 06/17/04 06:00 PM Re: Blade tricks and skills
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
I've also seen more people leave the martial arts because it wasn't like the tricks they saw. Why should we alter the reality of the arts to attract people? Showing off tricks to attract customers is wrong. Look at it like false advertising.

There is also a big difference in the unbendable arm and spinning a blade inches from your body.

If you started training because of tricks at some point someone told you those tricks were pointless. My first post was based on all the previous posts by mojo, not just the one in this thread.

Tricks are not beneficial to the arts, education is. That is what everyone with the exception of Javaman has been trying to do is educate mojo on what a sword art or any martial art is really about.

I am, however, glad you feel comfortable enough here to chastise everyone in the thread with your first post here.

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#112032 - 06/17/04 06:54 PM Re: Blade tricks and skills
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
H3llfr3

Couple of things. Ok-a long couple of things.

The first poster asked if the question was innapproate (sp) he got his answer in the form of opinion as the the place "tricks" had in the martial arts.

ie none.

In answer to your post--nothing is a bigger waste of time than someone coming to dojo that got all excited about "tricks" then finding out that MA in general and weapons in particualr are anything but "looking cool" (javamans statement)"tricks" etc.

Its hard freaking work--and the ones that drain away most of the teachers time, effort and sweat--the ones that quit in the largest number (as far as I am concerned) are the ones that walk in the door with unrealistic expectations--mainly from tv-movies/dvds--the ones that see all the "tricks and come to think of "tricks" as the result and purpose of training.

Anything that can be done to educate people about what the arts are REALLY like is a big step in the right direction.

It may turn some people off--but it also may save some poor SOB from wasting his time, energy and money on training they don't really want and is not going to make them happy.

Education--painful or not--usually beats ignorance--which is always more painful (and usually more expensive) in the long run.

More to the point--as has been made many, many, many, many times.

WEAPONS OF ANY KIND ARE POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS--BOTH TO THE USER AND THOSE AROUND THEM.

IT IS IRRESPONSIBLE TO ENCOURGE CHILDERN TO "PLAY" DO "TRICKS" OR DO ANYTHING TO "LOOK COOL" WITH THEM.

WEAPONS ARE NOT TOYS.

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#112033 - 06/18/04 07:03 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Thought of new example that might be a bit clearer.

The guy that started this post is 16 years old right?

Think of the result if he wrote to a NASCAR driver and told him he were interested in learning to do "tricks" with a car.

What do think the answer is going to be??

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#112034 - 06/18/04 12:11 PM Re: Blade tricks and skills
Anonymous
Unregistered


laf7773 and cxt,

If you think the first post question was inappropriate, then please say so. I kind of find it hard to believe that 'tricks', the basic moves that train you, are inappropriate.

Next, I never said "show off tricks to attract customers", I said tricks were what drew me to the arts. I was watching people practice while getting gas (the dojo had a glass wall and was next to the gas station).

I also never said the arts were easy. Where do you think we get our 18 year old black belts? Some kids with "unrealistic expectations" got into it. Guess what? Those kids' parents kept them in it because they made them keep a commitment. A lot of the tae kwon do class of our dojo are 1st and 2nd dan black belt teenagers.

As for the NASCAR example, the 16 yr. old kid that asks to learn some tricks will not be dissapointed since the kid will not have a NASCAR car. The letter would most likely say how to do a doughnut with a regular car.


ph34r m4 l33tn3ss

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#112035 - 06/18/04 12:45 PM Re: Blade tricks and skills
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
If you think the first post question was inappropriate, then please say so. I kind of find it hard to believe that 'tricks', the basic moves that train you, are inappropriate.

This is the problem. Tricks are NOT the basic moves for training people in any art, especially Japanese sword arts.

Tricks are for people who don't know better or want to impress people that are uninformed on the arts. This is why poor instructors show off these tricks to prospective students in order to get them into training. This same type of instructor tends to have a contract so the student will have to stay for the length of the contract after they find out these tricks are useless. The only people this concept works on are people who have little or no knowledge of the arts.

Encouraging teenagers to practice these tricks with a sword, sharp or not, is wrong.

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#112036 - 06/18/04 03:12 PM Re: Blade tricks and skills
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
H3ll


If you honestly think a professional driver is going to give a 16 year old kid tips and pointers and how to do "dounuts" with his car---well I don't really know how to respond to that--you can't possibly be serious--at least I sure hope not.

Thats just not responsible or reasonable or safe.

A pro would know better and would respond accordingly.

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#112037 - 06/18/04 10:05 PM Re: Blade tricks and skills
Anonymous
Unregistered


laf7773 and cxt,

It depends on what some people think of as tricks. Define your idea of 'tricks'. I may then reconsider. But until then, I will stick with what I have said.

Ummm... did you see anywhere on my post that said senseis made contracts? Parents make kids stick with the what they do. This is not restricted to just the arts. Pretty much any sport, art, or fine art will do. That is, if the parent is responsible. Also, my sensei is no scammer.

Once more, I have not said that anyone should go around doing 'tricks' to impress people of any kind.

I was being serious about the driver. There is no harm in doing doughnuts. I also seriously doubt that any responsible parent would give their kids a car with enough power to do doughnuts and flip or get into any accidents. Back when I was 16, me and my friends paid for our cars because the only thing our parents would even think of giving us were hoopdies. We got together in a parking lot, showed off all the things we did to our cars, like a nice paint job or neon lights. If any kid was doing doughnuts to show off, it was safe since we dared not damaged the expensive jobs on our cars.

And last, not one person in this thread has stated that this topic is inappropriate.


ph34r m4 l33tn3ss

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#112038 - 06/19/04 02:05 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
The topic isn't inappropriate. If anything it is a good thing to discuss because it will educate people on what not to do because of the dangers.

"Ummm... did you see anywhere on my post that said senseis made contracts? "

No. Did you see in my post where I claimed you did? No. Please pay attention to what is being written. That was MY statement and nothing was said about your sensei.

"It depends on what some people think of as tricks. Define your idea of 'tricks'. I may then reconsider. But until then, I will stick with what I have said."

This has already been established. You seem to be the one with the disconnect on what a trick is..."I kind of find it hard to believe that 'tricks', the basic moves that train you, are inappropriate." Please enlighten us to what you believe these tricks to be.

"There is no harm in doing doughnuts."

Again, you can't be serious.

"Back when I was 16, me and my friends paid for our cars because the only thing our parents would even think of giving us were hoopdies. We got together in a parking lot, showed off all the things we did to our cars, like a nice paint job or neon lights."


Makes you what, about 24?

"When I first came into Aikido a long long time ago, tricks were what drew me there."

Could you define "a long long time ago"? Since we are discussing Japanese sword arts here what is the extent of your training in the Japanese sword arts? Just to clarify my question about age. Your first post looked as though it was to lead people to believe you have been training for a very long time, but if you are in your mid 20s that would contradict it. Just curious.

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#112039 - 06/19/04 09:59 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
Anonymous
Unregistered


laf7773,

*applauds*. You seem to be very concerned about a lot of people's ages, but I am 22. A long time ago (not a long long time, that was a typo), 14 years ago, when I was 8, I started Aikido. I have only begun Kendo recently. Also, time means different things to different people.

I never said you said anything about my sensei. I am stating that since you think that "poor" senseis made contracts, you also think my sensei makes contracts with the parents of the kids that eventually become black belts at a younger age than most of us.

If you think of twirling a sword between your fingers like a pencil as a trick, then you who think that is a trick should just learn the art and forget the tricks.

What I think of as a trick is doing a full 360 degree circle and switching hands, as java stated. We do this as a practice beginning every 5 sessions.

Have you never done a doughnut?
(a small shoutout to all teens reading this thread, do not put neon lights on your cars, they yell "pull me over!" to all 5-0)

And last, read the topic line. "blade tricks and skills". Nowhere does it say "reasons why you should and shouldn't do tricks and skills".


ph34r m4 l33tn3ss

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#112040 - 06/19/04 10:53 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
H3

Well, to be honest I took my view of what consists of "tricks" from the "trick" detailed by the person who started this whole thread.

I asked before for someone to post an application for said "trick"--no takers so far--maybe you would care to try??

Person posted a topic--asked for input and opinion (and YES thats IS what was requested) and thats what they got.

You clearly have strong opinons on the topic--as do the number of us that feel that treating potentially dangerous weapons as "toys" so one can "do tricks" and "look cool" (all direct quotes from the posts on this topic)
Are perfect examples of the attitudes and appraochs (sp) of childish, immature, "mighty morphin power ranger wannabees."

People that expect to be taken seriously don't do "tricks" as described in the first post.

Pro's don't do "tricks"

(not that they CAN'T--many pro's are capable of some pretty awesome stunts)

Pro golfers, pro football, pro baseball, pro hockey, pro boxers etc.

You ever see what a pro level practice/training session in any of the above looks like??

Pro's that have to match vs. other pro's spend the vast majority of their time practicing fundamental techs over and over and over--because that is the only way to beat other pro's.

They don't do it by spending their training time doing "tricks" of the type described on the first post.

You want to "do tricks" so you can "look cool?"--look like a big man to your friends?

You want to spend your time training to "look cool?" rather than than really digging in an actually learning the skill that make up your art??

Fine by me--just don't ask me to respect it--or you--or anyone else that willing chooses to trade skill for superfical (sp) "tricks."

And please, please, pretty please DON'T encourage children to follow your example of treating weapons as toys.

At the very least keep 911 on your speed dial--sounds like your going to need it.

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#112041 - 06/19/04 04:10 PM Re: Blade tricks and skills
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
I am stating that since you think that poor senseis made contracts,

Your reading into it too much. Just read what I wrote.

This same type of instructor TENDS to have a contract so the student will have to stay for the length of the contract after they find out these tricks are useless.

I didn't say all instructors have contracts are poor instructors. I only stated that poor instructors do it in order to keep students after the student finds out what they are really teaching is crap.

You seem to be very concerned about a lot of people's ages, but I am 22.

Age is a part of experience. Since you made it a point to make yourself appear to have a vast knowledge of the arts with your long long time ago statement, I thought I would check. It's obvious by your posts you don't know as much as you would like people to believe you do. I'm not saying everyone your age doesn't know what they are talking about. Sir5cEntss is only 17 but he understands, so where is the disconnect with you and javaman?

If you think of twirling a sword between your fingers like a pencil as a trick, then you who think that is a trick should just learn the art and forget the tricks.

I do learn the art and I don't practice tricks. It's called educating someone so they don't make a PAINFULL mistake.

What I think of as a trick is doing a full 360 degree circle and switching hands, as java stated.

I kind of find it hard to believe that 'tricks', the basic moves that train you, are inappropriate.

So how is the first quote by you a basic move that train you? It's not. The simple fact is you don't understand the full extent of what you are training yet. There is also the fact that you have had no sword training, I have only begun Kendo recently. is a far cry from knowing enough about the sword arts to understand why these tricks are truly pointless, and that makes your argument pointless.

You shouldn't argue points you have no understanding of, listen and learn.


[This message has been edited by laf7773 (edited 06-19-2004).]

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#112042 - 06/21/04 10:11 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
h3llf1r3,

Something that may help you communicate with those of us who have been doing sword arts for awhile is to understand that most folks in the traditional sword arts community are old foagies. 30 to 50 or so. Some considerably older.

We have also in some cases been doing these arts longer than you've been alive. Not myself mind, I'm only working on my 7th year of Muso Jikiden Eishin ryu. Having been 22 not all that long ago, I remember what it was like not to be taken entirely seriously by my seniors. It was a darnable nuisance. Turns out that at least to some degree it was justified however.

Try to keep an open mind and read what you are being told. While you may know a lot, some of us know a great deal more than you do.

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#112043 - 11/21/04 02:48 PM Re: Blade tricks and skills
Anonymous
Unregistered


If blades werent meant to have fun with in order to learn, then how do you explain the Balisong or in leymans terms the butterfly knife? You are supposed to have fun learning the Balisong technique. I have persued the art of the Balisong for over 14 yrs now and I have had much fun learning the art.

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