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#112007 - 06/10/04 09:38 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Javaman,
"What about board breaking?"

Used in some schools to teach students proper focus and the ability to hit a target with proper technique.

"What about tameshigiri (sp?) (that might not even be the correct name, but I mean test cutting on rolled up mats);"

Used to teach students proper for and provide a feel for cutting. It is also used to test new blades.

"what about doing the splits?"

Training tool for flexability.

"I'd be willing to bet money, that when the first iai dojo opened up, some old kenjutsu student or instructor dismissed it as being "useless tricks" to impress people. the same thing probably happened with Kendo. So yes I would do tricks if I was in another martial art. These tricks are the martial art."

You act like iaido is something new. Iaido dates back to the mid 1400's and was developed in part by KENJUTSU practitioners. The same with kendo.

"Lots of things improve hand eye coordination, timing and distancing: Football, Baseball, hockey, darts, tennis, video games, typing... many more."

Yes they can teach you timing and hand eye coordination to some extent, but there is a difference. These are sports and games, the martial arts (originally) was not. Football in it's intent is not deadly, sword arts in there intent are.

"But I would not rely on those skills to help in any sort of combat or street confrontation."

Neither would i.

"By the way I thought of another sword trick; this one is from an advanced tai chi sword form that I have practiced for a number of years:"

I hate to break it to you but European and Chinese systems are very different than Japanese systems. What may be a legitamate technique in a Chinese art may be concidered a trick in a Japanese system. Part of the purpose of iaido is to strip away the un needed movements. All the tricks you described would be considered un needed movements or "tricks".

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#112008 - 06/10/04 03:39 PM Re: Blade tricks and skills
javaman Offline
Member

Registered: 07/04/03
Posts: 179
Loc: calgary, alberta, canada
Yes, I realize that board breaking trains for correct allignment and stuff, and tameshigiri trains for proper cutting.

But in regards to test cutting, I would consider that a trick, because noone is ever going to actually have to cut someone with a sword; so training to do so is well; pointless in any sort of tactical sense. But not pointless in that it helps in the art and with all that coordination and stuff we all agreed was important earlier. That was more the point of what I was saying, I'm sorry if it wasn't that clear.

cxt, I realize that chinese and western arts are different from japanese arts; but Mojo never said he was using a japanese sword, nor did he say he wanted to learn tricks that come from traditional iai techniques. I just wanted to show him some fun techniques that may be considered tricks but will still improve his swordsmanship and martial abilities. And if the trick he describes doing improves his dexterity, timing and comfort level with his sword, well then that is a big help to any sword art.

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#112009 - 06/10/04 07:09 PM Re: Blade tricks and skills
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Javaman are you paying attention? No one said tameshigiri was "test cutting". It's BLADE testing. As in when a new blade is forged and sharpened it must be tested. The best test for a cutting blade is tameshigiri.

If you had read any of mojo's other posts on other threads you would know he was referring to katana "tricks". He has expressed his interests in the Japanese sword arts.

You keep pointing out things you call tricks but are actually valuable training aids. What exactly is it you study and does you sensei/sifu explain why you are doing these things?

"I'd be willing to bet money, that when the first iai dojo opened up, some old kenjutsu student or instructor dismissed it as being "useless tricks" to impress people. the same thing probably happened with Kendo. So yes I would do tricks if I was in another martial art. These tricks are the martial art."

This statement alone tells me you have no concept of Japanese sword arts. You seem to have a very skewed idea of what is a trick and what is valuable training. The simple FACT is you are giving out bad advise and trivializing any sword art or martial art for that matter. Any thing that can be considered a weapon, blunt or not, should always be handled with care and not flailed around like some sort of toy.

Another point on your lack of attention, I am the one who made the statement of Japanese arts being different from European or Chinese arts.

You obviously don't understand the connection between empty hand and weapons training. It's not just hand eye coordination. Timing, distance, proper movement and body alignment are multiplied with weapons training. So it is not "pointless in a tactical sense". It is a very effective and useful training tool. You say you have had years of training but your mentality toward the arts isn't showing it.

"I just wanted to show him some fun techniques that may be considered tricks but will still improve his swordsmanship and martial abilities. And if the trick he describes doing improves his dexterity, timing and comfort level with his sword, well then that is a big help to any sword art."

Tricks will not improve swordmanship, it will impare it. Your training bad muscle memory when you do these sort of tricks that takes more time to undo than if you only followed proper instruction in the first place.

What is going to happen to his "comfort level" when he injurs himself or someone around him while doing "tricks"?

Sport karate and sport tae kwon do may be all fun and games but when it comes to self defense and weapons training it is serious and should always be respectfull. Not to say you can't have fun and enjoy it but flashy tricks have been considered disrespectful and a sign of ignorance by every serious martial artist i know.

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#112010 - 06/10/04 11:43 PM Re: Blade tricks and skills
Sir5cEntss Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 10
Loc: CA
Javaman-
Since when is any kick or cut simply a trick-

"What about a spinning axe kick? Useless in a real confrontation, but lots of fun to do in the dojo. That's a trick. All martial arts have little aspects of them that are for fun, and to a slight extent to let the students and teachers show off their skills."

Dude, i can respect your guts for posting your thoughts, but dude, that's serious pretty funny.

yeah so you're saying that when this kick was developed for practical application in fights, they were thinking, yeah this looks sexy- i'll show this off and get some chicks...?! DUDE don't disrespect the masters of old with your silly nonsensical interpretations that you pose as facts. oh geez. hahaha you're saying that martial arts is inherently entertainment based, and that wars long time ago were fought and won based on which side could look cooler? LOL


oh, and my thoughts exactly, laf.

lessons learned from weapons training and empty-handed training are cross-applicable.

old school martial arts are for fun? don't make me laugh...if you had a sword and you were getting attacked by someone, wouldn't you use it?

machiavelli is old school, we still read him.
plato, socrates, confucius, sun tzu, musashi, the bible...aren't these all old?

yet they deserve respect.

yeah you can say, but sword fighting lacks real world applications in today's society. don't gimme that bull. you're thinking of it as a sport or game. there are sooo many people who live and die by the sword.

and knife fighting is an extension and variation of sword-fighting's basic tenets.

and the life-lessons and inner-strenght gained from training with swords ina life or death mindset are nothing to be laughed at.

hey, look at the title of this forum: FIGHTING ARTS. not PLAY-FIGHTING arts.

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#112011 - 06/11/04 01:33 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
javaman Offline
Member

Registered: 07/04/03
Posts: 179
Loc: calgary, alberta, canada
My training is at
www.shaolinwushu.ca

As well as with the association of renaissance martial arts (ARMA)

sir5cents
You seem to have history confused with practicality. Any good martial art instructor will tell you to avoid flashy moves, like the spinning axe kick I mentioned; in any actual street fight. Just like these sword tricks, these moves help with other, more practical fighting moves. If you wish to bring this up furthur, there is a "high kicks" post somewhere on the self defense forum.
Just because a move is historically correct, does not mean it is completely practical. Even the old masters were human and blind hero worship of them is a diservice to them all. If your instructor tells you to use high axe kicks in a fight, go ahead; But I would practice them (and I do) knowing that I would never use them in a fight, but for sparring and to improve other kicks; and because that kick is part of the martial art. So you can't fully learn the martial art without learning that kick.

And yes if I had a sword and was getting attacked I would use it to defend myself. But that is not going to happen. At least not if I can help it. Although I suppose I could be jumped on my way to or from training when I did have a sword with me... But since I only use blunt, wood or extra flexible swords to practice, it would'nt be that much of a help anyway. I'm only going to say this one more time: Swords are not used to fight with anymore. That is not an opinion, that is a fact. There are isolated incidences check this out:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/Fringe.htm

But i'll bet there are 30X more deaths from assaults with baseball bats in the world than there are with swords.

And as for that

[QUOTE]
there are so many people who live and die by the sword
[/QUOTE]


People may devote their lives to properly preserving sword arts, but again: They do not actually fight with swords! It is not the same as it once was. Times have changed since feudal japan, deal with it.

And I have trained in knife fighting, and it is very diferent from training with swords. But my sword training did help.

And I never "laughed at" any of the lessons taught by sword arts. I respect and belief in those lessons.

laff773
[QUOTE]
Any thing that can be considered a weapon, blunt or not, should always be handled with care and not flailed around like some sort of toy.

[/QUOTE]


In any sword art, you are going to be flailing your sword around. That is way to learn the art. Remember you have to swing a sword to hit someone with it, and you have to hit someone with a sword to kill them with it. Which is the whole point of swords existence.

[QUOTE]
You obviously don't understand the connection between empty hand and weapons training. It's not just hand eye coordination. Timing, distance, proper movement and body alignment are multiplied with weapons training. So it is not "pointless in a tactical sense". It is a very effective and useful training tool. You say you have had years of training but your mentality toward the arts isn't showing it.
[/QUOTE]


I said many things improve hand eye coordination, timing and distancing. I didn't just say hand eye coordination.

And I could understand how flashy tricks could be seen as disrespectful to the art; but only if they were mislabled as the art. If he were to just say "this trick isn't part of a martial art, it's just fun to do" then that would be no harm to the art.

My basic statement is this: You are not actually going to get into a sword fight EVER! Training in the sword arts will improve your unarmed training, but don't think because you do a sword art it will automatically transfer to unarmed fighting; it will help but it will not replace. And since you will never get into a sword fight, your reasons for studying the sword arts should be: Apreciation of history, fitness, self improvement, discipline, improvement of unarmed techniques (notice I said "improvement", not "to learn") and just plain fun; not because you will actually have to fight with a sword someday; you won't. So as long as you follow these reasons, learn all the tricks you want, but do it safely and carefully. And keep in mind that even if this were a time when swords were used in fighting, these tricks were not. Just as certain techniques in unarmed martial arts are taught but never meant to be used in actual fighting. Think of these tricks as excercises: to improve timing, coordination, dexterity, distancing and all the other skills useful in unarmed combat.

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#112012 - 06/11/04 02:17 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
laf773, I hate to break it to you, but the only reason you should ever practice a sword art is for fun.

And since you will never get into a sword fight, your reasons for studying the sword arts should be: Apreciation of history, fitness, self improvement, discipline, improvement of unarmed techniques (notice I said improvement, not to learn) and just plain fun; not because you will actually have to fight with a sword someday; you won't.

I thought the ONLY reason was for fun? You keep bringing up the fact that you will never use a sword in a fight as if someone is arguing that with you. No one is. No one said weapons training will replace unarmed training. I am not mistaken, weapons training WILL automatically transfer to unarmed training Provided you are not wasting your time with tricks. The fact that you don't understand this concept is what tells me you don't know what you are talking about.

In any sword art, you are going to be flailing your sword around.

Again an area you don't know what you are talking about. Iaido are sets of CONTROLED movements designed to dispatch your opponent with a minimum of moves.

And keep in mind that even if this were a time when swords were used in fighting, these tricks were not.

These tricks were not taught in traditional Japanese arts. They are the manifestations of poor martial artists to impress people ignorant of the arts.

Think of these tricks as excercises: to improve timing, coordination, dexterity, distancing and all the other skills useful in unarmed combat.

If you really believe this then why do you continue to call them useless in a fight. Just because you don't use something in a fight doesn't mean it hasn't prepared you for it. The sword tricks you describe are counter productive.

The fact still remains you are passing off bad advise in a subject you are unfamiliar with.

Just curious, how old are you and how long have you been training in wushu?

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#112013 - 06/11/04 03:35 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
Kyoku Offline
Member

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 184
Loc: Dubbo, NSW, Australia
Although you may never actually get into a sword fight with someone, is there not the possibility that you may have a bokken in your vehicle? I carry mine beside me. In my occasions multiple attackers will flee once they realise you have a weapon, and if you know how to do it, can spin it around a little, this could also scare them. Then also, if they did attack you anway, surely a knowledge of the use of the weapon will help you disable the attackers.

Granted you might not always have a bokken with you, but what about a decent sized stick, crowbar, fencepost etc.

Training in other weapons would also help you be able to use whatever you can get your hands on. And failing that, there is always the empty hand that goes along with weapons training.

Just stating the fact that being trained in the art can help in other areas, excluding footwork, hand eye co-ordination, and other previously mentioned areas.

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#112014 - 06/12/04 01:50 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
javaman Offline
Member

Registered: 07/04/03
Posts: 179
Loc: calgary, alberta, canada
I kept stating the fact that you will never actually use a sword in a fight because it seemed like Sir5cEntss was disagreeing. And I meant that weapons training will transfer to unarmed combat only if you are actually training in unarmed combat aswell.

Learning a weapon art is not learning an empty hand art. Both will aid each other but they will only do that if both are trained.

And as for this
[QUOTE]
Again an area you don't know what you are talking about. Iaido are sets of CONTROLED movements designed to dispatch your opponent with a minimum of moves
[/QUOTE]


Sets of controlled movements eh? that's exactly what all these "tricks" are too. I knew that. And I knew iaido was a set of controlled movements too. I was trying real hard earlier today to think of a weapon art that did not use controlled sets of movements; I think kali might not but I don't know for sure. I do know about japanese sword arts. And since flail means To wave or swing vigorously; thrash: then Iaido is flailing a sword around.

And just because these tricks were not taught in traditional japanese arts does not mean that they were:
[QUOTE]
the manifestations of poor martial artists to impress people ignorant of the arts.
[/QUOTE]

All that means is they are not part of the traditionaly japanese arts; And I never said they were. In fact, I was very specific about how it is wrong to label these as part of a martial art if they are not.

These exercises were taught in Chinese, Philipeno (I don't know alot about kali or escrima, but i checked with a friend who does kali and he said he was taught to quickly switch sword hands and other things), French, Spanish, Korean, Italian, Native American and Vietnamese arts. All of these arts were very combat effective and used effectively for hundreds of years.

Oh, by the way I'm 25. I have been in wushu for 4 years, I have been a member of ARMA for 3 and I have my first dan ranking in Aikido. Which included a fair bit of iaido. I know you only asked that because it says "student" on my profile. I am a student; I will be recieving my masters degree in computer science one year from now. And I currently have a minor in Sentential and differential logic; so I know my posts make sense. Even if I do confuse who I quote once in a while.

How old are you and how long have you been studying iaido?

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#112015 - 06/12/04 01:50 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
Sir5cEntss Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 10
Loc: CA
hey buddy-javaman.

get a grip. don't get so defensive. when you do that, you tend to contradict yourself. end result- you nullify ANY good argument you MIGHT have had, and yuo end up looking foolish.

ok, let's look at TRICKS and SKILLS from the bottom up. tricks, by defintion, and connotation, are merely instruments of entertainment, designed to distract and amuse. on the other hand, skills are used in fights, not necessarily directly, but nevertheless used, in conceptual form or not.

tell me, how often do you use a structured, full-movement block or punch in sparring? NEVER. such exaggerated movements are unwieldy and illogical. nevertheless the basic concept of the move, practiced over and over again, proves its value in a fight. the same goes for your "tricks". you can NEVER pass something off as worthless or irrelevent. such an attitude is entirely disrespectful of the art. what does an art teach? self-reliance, if you get down to it. how can you be self-reliant if you discard things as stupid and you never take the time to truly delve into something and discover its true value?

you're so cocky and full of yourself. take a step back- try to see the big picture. you cannot ever label things in life so simply. labels misguide and mislead; nothing is ever balck and white. just because you percieve a kick to be worthless never means that that particular kick is outdated or irrelevent. you're basing your assumptions on your particular experiences and what limited and biased information you have thus far found. so do us all a favor, and before you leap to conclusions about ANYTHING, take a moment for introspection. it's gonna save a lot of trouble. yeah, i sound preachy. but i've done this before, too, and i just feel like an idiot afterwards. i don't care if you're older than me or younger. i don't care if you can kick bruce lee's ass. i especially don't care to hear you say that sword-fighting is stupid, for that matter. so just do us all a favor, and give up. laf and i, among various others, have proved our point time and time again. all you're doing is backtracking, revising your thoughts, and bullshitting. peace out, Mr. Shao-lin.

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#112016 - 06/12/04 02:01 AM Re: Blade tricks and skills
Sir5cEntss Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 10
Loc: CA
man, a 25 year-old? haha grow up dude. stop stating your credentials like you're something. its again with the labels. hahaha! man, you're like trying to force your ideas on us with CREDENTIALS! hahaha. you could go to HAHVAHD for all i care.

dude, and if you've studied martial arts soooo extensively, then you would understand that nothing is ever obsolete. you learn concepts, strenght, and other valuable lessons from even obsolete forms. so you don't use a sword or a spinning ax kick when you fight. GREAT. not many people do. but no one prepares just for something that happens all the time. there are always chances that something random is gonna happen. isn't that what insurance protects against? so your sword-fighting, your obscure, even irrelevent forms, even if they don't have an immediate practical application, can benefit the user immeasurably. you can check all my other frickin posts for details on that.

and dude, don't post your age to try to lord over me. i know i'm 17. so you're, what, 8 years older than me? grow up some, and then come and tell me something. heck, we can even argue logic and philosophy. bring it, yo.

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