FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 26 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
mohdnabeel, sunny, swordy, jerrybarry24, SenseiGregT
22915 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Ed_Morris 4
futsaowingchun 3
AndyLA 3
Matakiant 2
Zombie Zero 2
September
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30
New Topics
STX Kickboxing Seminar
by Marcus Charles
09/09/14 06:57 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
09/01/14 03:51 AM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
mindfullness meditation
by
01/06/09 11:27 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by
05/13/07 08:02 AM
Recent Posts
attacked from behind
by AndyLA
Today at 09:05 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Matakiant
Yesterday at 07:11 AM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
Yesterday at 06:07 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by Zombie Zero
09/16/14 04:43 PM
Eugue Ryu
by kolslaw
09/12/14 03:35 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
09/01/14 03:51 AM
mindfullness meditation
by log1call
08/31/14 09:43 PM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
Forum Stats
22915 Members
36 Forums
35575 Topics
432495 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 11 1 2 3 ... 10 11 >
Topic Options
#111338 - 05/22/03 10:16 PM The new world weapons
Muse Swordsman Offline
Stranger

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 2
I believe that todays weapons such as guns and bombs are the lowest form of weaponry. A child can pull a trigger or press a button. Old world weapons(staffs,swords,the body)are true art forms and take practice over years of training to master . I just want to know if there are others out there who feel how I do.

Top
#111339 - 05/22/03 11:55 PM Re: The new world weapons
mikelw Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 1031
Loc: Bothell, Washington (not DC), ...
Agreed!

Top
#111340 - 05/23/03 01:06 AM Re: The new world weapons
evil Offline
Member

Registered: 05/14/03
Posts: 38
Loc: Tucson
i third that. the weaponry of the modern age is the weaponry of sloth and cowardice, and generally the owners of such weaponry fit the description above. the only discipline that guns require you to learn is maintenance of the weapon. you'll never learn the responsibility that should come naturally with the discipline of learning martial arts because there is none required to use a firearm. i'd sooner be maimed by a master swordsman than shot by some punk kid wielding an errant firearm. plus, a swordfight has a much lower chance of injuring some innocent bystander, unlike your average drive-by.

Top
#111341 - 05/23/03 07:20 AM Re: The new world weapons
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Disagree with you all.

You seem to have romanticised the past by attributing honour and glory to people who used the weapons of their time.

Garbage.

The samurai at their time were the thugs of the day.

A thug then would be a thug now, regardless of the weapons used.

JohnL

Top
#111342 - 05/23/03 05:46 PM Re: The new world weapons
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
I agree, John. Also, if you think that firearms use requires no discipline or mastery, I beg to differ. How many thugs do you think could clear a stovepipe or a bolt override? How many could reload smoothly under fire? Anyway, there is no honor, or winners, or heroes, in combat. Simply the living or the dead. Whatever keeps you alive is good.
Evil, you think that, generally, firearms owners are sloth-ish and cowardly? What do you base this on?

Top
#111343 - 05/25/03 07:06 PM Re: The new world weapons
evil Offline
Member

Registered: 05/14/03
Posts: 38
Loc: Tucson
the basis is the gun-owners of my small area. however, i've come to realize that those slothish and cowardly gun-owners (who'll run up on you from behind with a pistol)were cowardly before. i have been hasty in judgement, because a any weapon in the hand of a coward will be used in the manner of one. and there are responsible owners, true. but anyone who owns a weapon should(but won't always) should know about the maininence and care of their weapons (lazy/sloth). as for reloading under fire (assuming the fight lasted longer than the initial four bullets), it's not likely for anyone. your "average" modern gunfight won't last long enough to empty a clip(if either gunman has any skill at aiming). perhaps we are romanticizing swordsmen for using what was available, because john is right, a thug is a thug, but i have yet to see a gunfighting-based martial art.

Top
#111344 - 05/26/03 01:36 PM Re: The new world weapons
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
mar·tial ( P ) Pronunciation: (märshl)
adj.
Of, relating to, or suggestive of war.
Relating to or connected with the armed forces or the profession of arms.
Characteristic of or befitting a warrior.
Maybe it's not an art, but shooting is definitely martial. http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm
Read the charts. Three of these guys had time to reload. Three of them switched to backup weapons. Not "typical", but definitely informative.
As far as the people in your area, they are called "hicks" or "rednecks". My suggestion is to make a million dollars, buy their trailer parks out from under them, and laugh.

Top
#111345 - 06/01/03 01:51 AM Re: The new world weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


Shooting skillfuly takes practice and discipline.Proper gripping of the weapon must be learned, proper breathing, knowing how to acquire the proper sight picture, blocking out distractions, proper maintenance and care of the weapon.
If the punks who did drive bys had learned to shoot, there would be no one injured besides the intended target.
Any idiot can pick up a sword, gun, knife etc. and harm others indiscriminantly. It is not the weapons fault, but the brainless moron wielding it.

Top
#111346 - 06/01/03 07:09 AM Re: The new world weapons
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
In my opinion talking about honourable and dishonourable weapons is silly, naive and childish. Weapons when used to hurt and kill are BAD THINGS. I don't care if its a blade or a missile.

The point about weapons based martial arts, is the development of the person who holds/controls the weapon. The sword is an extention of self as is the staff, as is the fist and the foot.

Bad people do bad things. Its that simple. Violence needs intent to harm as a necessary condition, thus the tool becomes irrelevant. The question becomes 'is the action justifiable in the circumstance?', and the answer can only ever be based on individual value judgment systems.

[This message has been edited by Yoseikan Student (edited 06-01-2003).]

Top
#111347 - 06/01/03 08:53 AM Re: The new world weapons
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Yoseikan, your whole post contradicts itself. The first paragraph says weapons use is ALWAYS bad, and that dishonor has nothing to do with it. The third paragraph says the question is whether your action was justifiable or not. HELLO! If justifiable, it is honorable. If not justifiable, dishonorable.
PS, who here has actually FIRED a gun, so we can tell if you speak from experience or from ignorance?

Top
#111348 - 06/01/03 11:22 AM Re: The new world weapons
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
No. Justifiable and honourable are two concepts that are capable of being wholly unrelated. I stand by my remarks.

Top
#111349 - 06/01/03 11:23 AM Re: The new world weapons
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
oh, btw, i have had experience with guns, but not rifles - shotguns. To be honest they scare the sh*t out of me.

Top
#111350 - 06/01/03 08:07 PM Re: The new world weapons
evil Offline
Member

Registered: 05/14/03
Posts: 38
Loc: Tucson
Yoseikan, by "justifiable" you seem to mean an excuse for one's bad behaviour. plus "bad people do bad things. it's just that simple" is incorrect. things aren't always black and white, there are always shades of gray. a young man who defended his friend by killing someone still killed someone. though he was "justified" it's still wrong. but does that make him a bad person for killing? who's to say? you've got to remember that people make choices that are good, bad and indifferent, but they are still only people. another of your statements, "weapons when used to hurt or kill are BAD THINGS," is completley incorrect. weapons are MADE to hurt and kill people, they are tools, and when they hurt and kill they are tools doing what they were made for. they don't become "bad things" once they are used. and yes i have fired guns before; luger 9mm, .38 special, m-16, 30-30 and a 12-guage shotgun slugs and buckshot. btw slugs are personal favorite.

[This message has been edited by evil (edited 07-13-2003).]

Top
#111351 - 06/01/03 08:31 PM Re: The new world weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


I was raised by an ex-marine sgt. and avid gun collector. All of us(mother,brother,sister) were taught to shoot. I began learning to shoot at the age of 7,with a bb gun.Most of my shooting experience is with pistols.Bladed weapons scare me more than guns-blade weapon is 10 times more likely to kill you than a gunshot.
I agree with evil(never thought I would say that), guns&swords are tools.They do not perform value judgements or have intelect since they are inanimate objects.

Top
#111352 - 06/01/03 08:32 PM Re: The new world weapons
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
Yoseikan, by justifiable you seem to mean an excuse for one's bad behaviour.

No, I mean an individual's reasoning behind a particular action. For example: the Hiroshima bombing was justified by Truman. You may accept or reject that justification. My understanding of the word honourable does not include such an act as detonating a nuclear weapon on a city. However i'm willing to accept that a reasonable person could have made that decision, even if I disagree with it.

plus bad people do bad things. it's just that simple is incorrect. things aren't always black and white, there are always shades of gray. a young man who defended his friend by killing someone still killed someone. though he was justified it's still wrong. but does that make him a bad person for killing? who's to say? you've got to remember that people make choices that are good, bad and indifferent, but they are still only people.

You misinterpret my meaning. I did not say my statement exhausted all possibilities. To say bad people do bad things is not a defiance of logic. They do. My point was that the weapon cannot be blamed in itself, any fault lays at the feet of the decision maker. I accept that I expressed myself poorly.

another of your statements, weapons when used to hurt or kill are BAD THINGS, is completley incorrect. weapons are MADE to hurt and kill people, they are tools, and when they hurt and kill they are tools doing what they were made for.

A weapon is an emanation of man's intent to inflict harm upon another man, as such I believe my statement to be valid. Again note the blame on the individual and not the inanimate object. I also accept that that might not have been made clear earlier. I think my words are closer to yours in this light.

This doesn't make training with weapons bad, it makes using them to hurt people bad. Using weapons may be deemed necessary in a particular circumstance by an individual e.g. me. I can justify my use of the weapon, but I gain no 'honour' from using the weapon. This does not necessarily make me a bad person. The word bad as I use it, stems from my own personal value judgement system. I would suggest that it is possible for anyone to accept that a bad person does bad things, and this may include the use of a weapon.

These things that I say do not contradict, and it is not a case of doublethink. They merely exist alongside eachother.

The main point is that to class one type of device intented to hurt and kill above another by labeling it 'honourable' is ludicrous. Its self admiring rubbish. Killing is bad as is hurting, regardless of the methodology.

[This message has been edited by Yoseikan Student (edited 06-01-2003).]

Top
#111353 - 06/01/03 09:16 PM Re: The new world weapons
evil Offline
Member

Registered: 05/14/03
Posts: 38
Loc: Tucson
thank you for clearing that up. point taken. but personally i don't think "good" and "bad" have anything to do with it as they are merely abstract concepts.

Top
#111354 - 06/13/03 02:40 PM Re: The new world weapons
martial_life Offline
Member

Registered: 12/10/02
Posts: 72
Loc: Elkton, SD, US
Evil-I believe the "K-bar" is a combat utility knife of the Marine Corps. I have one, my father(a Marine who went to the Army and became an Airborne Ranger) has one, and it is a good knife, though not a firearm.

Top
#111355 - 06/15/03 09:56 PM Re: The new world weapons
Ender Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/29/03
Posts: 2253
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
I think this is all just a question of morality. The problem with guns is that any punk can go buy a saturday night special and do a driveby in front of your house (and chances are he wont get caught), whereas with bladed or stick weaponry, there is SOME skill that is required before you can use it properly. It takes longer to learn to use these without killing yourself in the process (as many have done with kama, in particular one guy who tried to fuse together kama's with nunchaku - not a pretty death).

The training one undergoes with simpler weapons usually leads to them becoming a better person, while gun usage does not. Thus, guns are a quick and easy road to power and proficiency in violent confrontations.

Honor has nothing to do with it. true, the Samurai were vaery much just snotty rich kids who thought they were above the rules and were well trained in killing arts - not a good combo. The only difference between the age old samurai and todays street kid is that at least the Samurai had SOME kind of honor code, even if many of them completely disregarded this. Thugs today have no value.

Its all about money these days. Humanity is quickly giving way to Currency. Many people are bickering about the cost of the collar these days. What about the cost of life? It would seem that that is the exchange rate that has dropped the most in recent decades.

I don't think it'd the method of weaponry we should worry about, but moreover the driving forces behind ANY weaponry. If somone really wnats to hurt you, they WILL hurt you. Knife, gun, sword, staff. Doesnt matter. If the intent is there, people will find a way, and dont thinka staff or sword or whatever can be ANY less devastating than a gun.

Even if we do get rid of all weapons, thugs will still be thugs, and violence will still be a problem. Dont blame problems on guns, or even be afraid of the guns. Be afraid of the driving forces that compel people to use such weapons. This is our enemy. Our own Malice.

Top
#111356 - 06/16/03 11:55 PM Re: The new world weapons
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Ender, AAAAARRRRRGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!
There. Now, you think a knife is harder to use than a gun? You are WRONG. Not gonna bother telling you why. I'll let you figure it out. Kama/Nunchuku death? I don't believe you. You don't think firearms training imparts a code, or teaches you anything good? Dude, most people get taught to shoot by their dad or grandpa, and it's good times away from the women to show the boy how good men act.
One thing you said does make sense, and that is that it's the INTENT to do harm that should be focused on, rather than the means of doing so. However, this intent can spring from social and economic pressures, poor upbringings, the influence of drugs and alcohol, mental illness, or just plain being an arse. So if we can't control access to weapons (and we CAN'T) and if we can't control people's intentions to do violence (and we CAN'T), then what's left?

Top
#111357 - 06/17/03 11:00 AM Re: The new world weapons
Ender Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/29/03
Posts: 2253
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Control how you react.



[This message has been edited by Ender (edited 06-17-2003).]

Top
#111358 - 06/18/03 05:53 PM Re: The new world weapons
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Exactly. The only thing we have any control over is ourselves. That's really the whole point of MA to me. By increasing my self control, and my abilities, I increase the odds of interacting with my environment succesfully.

Top
#111359 - 06/19/03 07:15 AM Re: The new world weapons
Ender Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/29/03
Posts: 2253
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Oh btw, that kama/nunchaku death actually happened. I'm not kidding, the guy actually tried to merge the kama and Nunchaku together. When he tried to swing it around, one of the blades caught into his lower back and when he yanked it, it came up across his back, slicing through the spinal cord.

Of course I only heard about this and cannot verify with my own eyes that it is true. But it sounds very plausible to me as this guy was probably untrained and wanted to look like the guys in the movies. Also he was probably rather stupid.

Top
#111360 - 06/19/03 09:34 AM Re: The new world weapons
Fighting Dwarf Offline
Member

Registered: 03/27/03
Posts: 322
Loc: UK
Ender, it sounds like an urban myth. Where did you hear about it?

-Charlie

Top
#111361 - 06/26/03 04:26 PM Re: The new world weapons
silver14 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 06/26/03
Posts: 2
Loc: Porterville,California,USA
This student is truly wise. You idiots, it doesn't matter what weapon you use.You are still trying to hurt someone aren't you? The only reason you say this is because you have to have more skill & be at a closer range then you would with a gun. I respect the skill and masters of the sword because it takes more time, but a weapon will always be meant to hurt someone. A coward is still a coward if he uses a gun,or sword because a sword is not alive it has no feelings or pride whoever told you otherwise is foolish. I do not like the fact that peolple recuire barely any talent to shoot a gun, but it does make the job faster. The student before me is very wise & I respect that, and you should also, no more nonsense of honor.

Top
#111362 - 06/26/03 09:15 PM Re: The new world weapons
Rieko Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/26/03
Posts: 12
Loc: Verona Mo USA
I agree with both sides, but my idea of guns and bombs are more distructive than that of the older weapons. I beleive that all weapons are dangerous and should be handled by those who are older and not the foolish. Just think of this, if down the road we develop even more deadlier weapons then that of the atomic or chemical bombs, we distroy all of the resorces that we need. That we are destined to protect. What happens then? Do you still agree that we resort to just guns and bombs. I think that the older weapons are a way of not hurting our natural resorces.But then these days are getting more modern and more intelligent than we can imagine so what is the difference. My answer will not make a difference any ways so go ahead and disapprove of me.

Top
#111363 - 06/27/03 01:13 PM Re: The new world weapons
grimmm Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/27/03
Posts: 10
Loc: nustang ok usa
for those of you that think gun are better that swords or other wepons you are wrong dead wrong because if you can shoot 300 yards one what are you goin to do when someone is behind you with a knife and cut you down there will come to a time when guns are no longer goin to work WE WILL HAVE TO GO BACK TO THE OLD WAYS becaase no matter how thick your kevlar is a sword will penatrate it.

Top
#111364 - 06/28/03 09:11 PM Re: The new world weapons
Rieko Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/26/03
Posts: 12
Loc: Verona Mo USA
grimmm, i totally agree with you. guns are more deadly than that of a sword. But this world will keep on making even more deadlier weapons. i wish it were so that the world would turn to swords and older weapons. But i highly doubt that it will happen.

Top
#111365 - 06/30/03 09:42 PM Re: The new world weapons
Ender Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/29/03
Posts: 2253
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Rieko, grimmmm actually stated that guns WEREN'T (yes, your correct, that is NOT a proper word) more powerful than old weapons, just used differently.

Top
#111366 - 07/02/03 01:06 PM Re: The new world weapons
grimmm Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/27/03
Posts: 10
Loc: nustang ok usa
I don't think it is a matter of how deadly a weapon is but how is using it like a sword anyone can stab someone in the back with a sword by can you defend yourself with that same sword againist someone who knows how to use a sword no, but with a gun it is pray and spray hopping you hit something you don't have that with a sword or other weapon.

Top
#111367 - 07/02/03 10:24 PM Re: The new world weapons
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
I am amazed and dismayed.

Top
#111368 - 07/03/03 12:50 AM Re: The new world weapons
evil Offline
Member

Registered: 05/14/03
Posts: 38
Loc: Tucson
i agree jamoni.

Top
#111369 - 07/05/03 03:17 PM Re: The new world weapons
Rieko Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/26/03
Posts: 12
Loc: Verona Mo USA
i know that grimmm stated that! i just replied with my own opinion. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] all weapons are harmful and that's that. im just saying what could be more deadly; a gun or a sword. its just that i'm disturbed by the devestation of a bomb and what it can do to the land. that's what worrys me the most.

Top
#111370 - 07/11/03 03:38 PM Re: The new world weapons
roninmonk Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/11/03
Posts: 24
Loc: Anderson IN
can i ask at what range you think that gun becomes uesless. the closer you are the more damage you inflict. and i can tell youve never worn a bullet proof vest because most now have a ceramic plate in the front and back some there will be no sword penatration. they can stop ak 47 rounds. lets all be realist weapons kill some kill better than others but they all kill. wake up and smell the napalm no one carries sword and if we truly want to be masters of are elements we must train to be proficient in the weapons of are attackersjust has the smaurais and ninjas of old did. and im not knocking traditional weapons arts budo ninpo and kenjutsu are my true passions and very effective ways of defense.

Top
#111371 - 07/14/03 12:34 AM Re: The new world weapons
javaman Offline
Member

Registered: 07/04/03
Posts: 179
Loc: calgary, alberta, canada
The original post was that modern weapons are a lower form of weaponry, because they are easeier to use. That is all untrue. Traditional weapons are as easy to use as any gun, if you use them in an untrained manner; which can still be an effective manner. An untrained lunatic who is wildly swinging a katana around can kill many people and is very hard to defend against. The same is true of the same lunatic with a gun. Similarly, a person who is a well trained marksman could do more damage than the same lunatic with a gun. Just as a master of a sword-art would be more dangerous with the same katana than the lunatic with the same weapon.

The basis of the argument seems to be that some people on this post, I won't name names, seem disgruntled that an untrained person with a gun could (probably) easily defeat, even kill, a trained sword master who is only armed with an edged weapon. That merely reflects that the gun is more deadly than the sword in that situation, not that the gun is dishonorable. It certainly does not mean the gun is a lower form of weaponry.

What do you mean Muse Swordsman; by lower form? A gun is more complex, more high tec, more deadly in skilled hands (and isn't that the point of any weapon) than any sword. This would seem to make a gun a higher form of weaponry to me.

And this is one thing everyone has seemed to forgotton, (except nekogami13) is it is just as difficult and takes just as much time to master firearms and marksmanship as it does to master any traditional weapon or unarmed traditional MA.

All weapons were invented to give a fighting advantage over people without, or with lesser weapons. That is why the Japanese constantly researched and improved the design and build of their swords, to let them better fight, and kill their various enemies until the japanese had perfected swordmaking better than any other people.

And btw Evil, would you rather be knifed in the back by some punk kid, or shot by a master marksman?

Top
#111372 - 07/14/03 08:17 PM Re: The new world weapons
Rieko Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/26/03
Posts: 12
Loc: Verona Mo USA
well ill tell you what... a weapon is a weapon and it kills. yes any person can wield a gun or a sword and can kill blindly. just to say another thing what about those who are young and are naive. can a mere child be more violent than that of a full aged man. a child of 10 to 17. would you be more aware of a man with a sword or a gun than a child?

Top
#111373 - 07/14/03 10:03 PM Re: The new world weapons
evil Offline
Member

Registered: 05/14/03
Posts: 38
Loc: Tucson
personally, java, i'd prefer a man to man fist fight, rather than be killed randomly because someone can't shoot what their aiming at. a knife is very personal, i've not heard of anybody getting knifed without a reason. my main beef is young punks looking to guns to settle scores the "easy way" if you will. and those same punks killing people they didn't mean to. a master marksman would do it right and shoot me from 300 yards or more and kill me and me alone.




[This message has been edited by evil (edited 07-15-2003).]

Top
#111374 - 07/17/03 06:32 PM Re: The new world weapons
javaman Offline
Member

Registered: 07/04/03
Posts: 179
Loc: calgary, alberta, canada
Well Rieko, youre right; I would be more aware of a person who has a gun rather than a sword. But that's just because I don't think swords are seriously used in crimes anymore, at least not in where I live. I would be no more afraid of a man with a gun though, If I knew he knew how to use it and had no intention of harming me. My main problem is martial artist who look down on people who train with firearms, even if that training is not for self defense, but rather just for fun.

Top
#111375 - 07/23/03 04:42 PM Re: The new world weapons
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Has anyone ever noticed that "hand gunning" is sometimes called "The American Martial Art"? There's a reason for that, particularly since many handgun enthusiasts are also martial artists. And from what I've experienced at least some of the philosophy/ ethics of the "jutsu" arts have seeped into the handgun world. In fact, having been exposed to both, I see A LOT in common between handgunning and Kenjutsu.

Top
#111376 - 08/01/03 01:03 PM Re: The new world weapons
Rikk Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/01/03
Posts: 4
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Muse Swordsman:
I believe that todays weapons such as guns and bombs are the lowest form of weaponry. A child can pull a trigger or press a button. Old world weapons(staffs,swords,the body)are true art forms and take practice over years of training to master . I just want to know if there are others out there who feel how I do. [/QUOTE]

They are all tools for a job.

Top
#111377 - 08/01/03 01:05 PM Re: The new world weapons
Rikk Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/01/03
Posts: 4
They are all tools for a Job.

Top
#111378 - 09/05/03 08:54 PM Re: The new world weapons
bb39 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/05/03
Posts: 12
Isn't it funny that a 4 year old kid can pick up a pistol point it and fire it, killing the worlds best soldier? Meanwhile it usually takes a skilled swordsmen to kill another. I mean even an archer has to know how to pull back the arrow right. And also modern weapons take the skill out of war. Its really the more rich, more technologically advanced country that will win a war.

Top
#111379 - 09/07/03 03:27 PM Re: The new world weapons
Syrio Offline
Member

Registered: 09/02/03
Posts: 74
Times have NOT changed:

We hear the glory stories of the samurai and their bushido but there were in actuality an abundance of ronin, bandits, outlaws, others who refused to follow this code. Most of them could not manage to live a prosperous life by following that code and so chose to break it, thus the thug, same as today.

The thug image of the samurai has since been glorified, just like the image of the modern thug.

Weapons are designed to harm other human beings, usually to kill, and in my experience the perception of honor usually belonged to the person standing (which is why guns replaced the sword in katana-crazed Japan in the first place, guns win).

The study of martial arts is an excellent means of self-improvement but the basis of this concept is still war, and it's overall purpose in my mind will always be to ensure that the practitioner makes it home after a battle. The reason the styles we know today are famous is because they were an innovation during some period in some nation where everyone was holding on to an archaic form of combat. I love the sword, but for me to consider myself a martial artist in modern day I HAVE to know the gun, if for no other reason to defend against it. I feel there is honor to be found in both, and dishonor as well.

In my mind, there is small difference between the develpments in sharpness and strength of the katana giving an advantage to any wealthy "punk" in feudal Japan and the similar ease with which the average, untrained (and yet still threatened) "thug" on the street can use a gun.

Top
#111380 - 09/08/03 07:55 AM Re: The new world weapons
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Syrio: Good post!

Top
#111381 - 10/17/03 11:45 PM Re: The new world weapons
e2gm Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/17/03
Posts: 18
Well...
If you let me speak...i mean type ^^;;
What actually has changed is not really a matter of weapon technology...
It's the human factor....

All we have done in using either swords or guns are nothing but to kill...
It's no different.. a tool for killing...
one may favour the swords instead of the guns, vice versa....

Now, what has changed is the human attitude...
Nowadays, we have less and lesser moral value... that's what eventually degrades the guns...
Personally, I am a pro for sword... but let face it man... that's the truth...

A question to consider...
Both guns and swords are not art or anything... but it is a way of killing...
Can any of you kill? Honour in killing using sword? Guns? They are all the same...
nothing more than signal of killinng certain person.

Simply said...
Humans are getting more and more degraded and eventually lower their own status...
because of their stupid, idiotic, self interest way...
Thank you for reading, hope any of u doesn't get mad at me, i mean I can't use well any weapons.. I'll be dead in few seconds facing u guys ><

--
Regards,
e2gm

Top
#111382 - 10/19/03 02:49 AM Re: The new world weapons
Zenmeister Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/19/03
Posts: 18
Loc: Honea Path, South Carolina, US...
In regards to firearms, especially handguns being the tool if choice for thugs,guess what? Edged and blunt weapons are used many more times in the commission of crimes by untrained individuals simply because access to those types of armament is very easy and can be found very quickly in the form of a metal pipe, ball bat, box cutter, kitchen knife, etc. It takes no in depth experience to sneak up behind somebody with one of these crude weapons does it?

As classical Asian weaponry, they did seek the most modern and practical weapons availible. The whole feudal era of ancient Japan was ended with the introduction of firearms and the one who wielded alot of them, in this case the Tokugawa rejime which ended the long lasting civil wars. Best tool for the job at time and honorable warriors did not hesitate to use them.

[This message has been edited by Zenmeister (edited 10-19-2003).]

Top
#111383 - 10/19/03 03:01 AM Re: The new world weapons
Zenmeister Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/19/03
Posts: 18
Loc: Honea Path, South Carolina, US...
As for firearms being the choice of "sloths" and those who own them being such, I welcome you to a target session with my Gov't model .45 automatic and hit six 6 inch by 6 inch steel plates in rapid succession at 25 yards. This takes concentration, timing, trigger and breath control, conditioning, and just tons of practice. Its a whole diffent world than the gangster who shoots at random from close ange, just as learning kobudo is leaps and bounds ahead of somebody using a homemade knife to rob or injure innocent people.
This is a matter of perception and understanding the world around you, for there are those who would ban the recreational use of ANYTHING which qualifies as a weapon, or anything that can be perceived as a weapon. To bash me as a recreational shooter is to condemn yourself as a martial artist doing a sai, bo, nunchaka, sword kata, etc. intended as training to take out an adversary.

Top
#111384 - 10/29/03 04:56 PM Re: The new world weapons
bb39 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/05/03
Posts: 12
everybody keeps saying that a sword and a gun are both items for killing. and thus saying that it is not an art. in fact is killing not an art? i'm not saying i'm some freak who admires people who kill, i'm just saying that to bring another man death is an art, regardless of the weapon he chooses to use in the process of doing so.

Top
#111385 - 12/23/03 05:31 AM Re: The new world weapons
Ozmo Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/03
Posts: 142
Loc: Kuopio, Finland
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bb39:
Isn't it funny that a 4 year old kid can pick up a pistol point it and fire it, killing the worlds best soldier? Meanwhile it usually takes a skilled swordsmen to kill another. I mean even an archer has to know how to pull back the arrow right. And also modern weapons take the skill out of war. Its really the more rich, more technologically advanced country that will win a war. [/QUOTE]


Congratulations. Your post was sufficiently idiotic and ignorant to motivate me into registering on these boards, just to get to reply to you.

First of all, the comparisons you make are completely wrong. The 4 year old kid (who would be unable to hold a real gun btw) shooting the worlds best soldier would be the same as a 4 year old kid hitting the best swordsman in the head with a sword. Clearly this proves that swords are a weapon for sissy girls since they can kill you just like that! A true warrior with skill should use his teeth, since they take skill to kill with.

If anything, guns have brought more subtelty and tactics into violence. No longer can you run around like an idiot, swinging your sword around, since that'll just get you killed. You have to pay attention to your surroundings, take cover and keep your head down. Yes, there were "cool" and clean duels with swords in the past, just like in the movies, but you shouldn't compare them to a punk shooting a random passer-by on the street. There is skill in fighting with modern weapons as well, imagine 2 people with guns in a place filled with cover and obstacles tryig to kill each other, like in many James Bond movies. Better yet, imagine 10 trained soldiers and 10 people who don't know the first thing about warfare in the middle of the forest. Then imagine how it'll end up if both are given the same equipment and told to kill each other. Clearly it must be luck since there is no skill involved with firearms.

Fight "back in the good old days" with swords weren't anywhere near as clean as you'd think from "historically accurate" sources such as Hollywood and the like. The common image people with romantic thoughts on swords get on fighting with firearms is a World War 1 type place where individual skill is useless and surviving is through mere luck. If anything, it was more like that in the age of the sword than now. These people are forgetting the fact that most swordfights would take place in large battles where you would end up having people gang up on you, drowing in a puddle because of your armor or getting an arrow in your back at best.

Modern weapons don't automatically win either you know. Take the impressive resistance of the Iraqi freedom fighters against the occupying American army for example.

Yes, I know my post is a huge mess of rambling. It happens.

Top
#111386 - 12/26/03 12:10 AM Re: The new world weapons
Hogtooth Offline
Member

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 78
Loc: USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bb39:
Isn't it funny that a 4 year old kid can pick up a pistol point it and fire it, killing the worlds best soldier? Meanwhile it usually takes a skilled swordsmen to kill another. I mean even an archer has to know how to pull back the arrow right. And also modern weapons take the skill out of war. Its really the more rich, more technologically advanced country that will win a war. [/QUOTE]

Top
#111387 - 12/26/03 01:02 AM Re: The new world weapons
Hogtooth Offline
Member

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 78
Loc: USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bb39:
And also modern weapons take the skill out of war. [/QUOTE]

This is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long time. It is very obvious you have never been to war yourself. Modern weapons have done just the oppisite. Cover, concealment, and movement have become elevated skills. The ability to avoid death at 500 meters ( the standard effective range of most assault rifles on a point target) takes an incredible amount of skil. As weapons have become more deadly at longer ranges, the skill required to survive an attack by them must increase proportionately. As a US Marine and a combat veteran I can personally attest to the amount of proficiency and skill required to survive in a modern war zone.
I equate the modern day warrior and his rifle to that of the warriors of fuedal Japan. It is much more than just a firearm. It is a shield, a club, a spear, your best friend. This rifle is your life and you spend day and night with it for years, mastering it and yourself. It becomes a part of your very soul. Failure to make it so can quickly cost you your life on the battlefield. Take a look at any US Marine Infantryman and you will see a warrior who is a master of his trade, and highly skilled with the tools of that trade. (be sure to tell him you think he has no war skills. When you wake up, you may have a different oppinion.)
SSgt K. Peters USMC
MOS 0321/8541

Top
#111388 - 12/26/03 01:33 AM Re: The new world weapons
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Muse Swordsman:
I believe that todays weapons such as guns and bombs are the lowest form of weaponry. A child can pull a trigger or press a button. Old world weapons(staffs,swords,the body)are true art forms and take practice over years of training to master . I just want to know if there are others out there who feel how I do. [/QUOTE]

Does it really matter? How a human is killed is irrelevant, death is the same no matter what way it happens.

A child may be able to press the trigger of a bomb but an untrained child cannot re-load, unjam, clean, strip down, aim or a fire a fully automatic weapon with the accuracy of a trained marksman. Marksmanship is not to be underrated, you have wind velocity, trajectory, distance, vision, movement and gauge to consider before making a shot. Firing a gun takes skill but you can kill using a gun wihout much fire-arms skill just as I could kill with a sword wihtout having much sword-man skills.

Bombs, there is an art to making bombs, the bomb maker knows his stuff, blast radius, material to use, kill type and trigger-trip wire or manual. Make shift boobitraps etc, all these things are skills used in war time just a more efficient way of "killing".

The blade is silent so will always have a place in war.

[QUOTE]Old world weapons(staffs,swords,the body)are true art forms and take practice over years of training to master.[/QUOTE]

dude, knowing how to shoot a weapon with skill takes as much time as it would to learn how to kill someone skillfully with a sword, at the end of the day it doesnt take much to swing a sword or pull a trigger but to do it skillfuly using either takes a lot of practice.

killing is what its all about.

Top
#111389 - 12/28/03 08:34 PM Re: The new world weapons
cwaterhound Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 8
Loc: louisville ky usa
weather a gun and a sword is honerable is irreverlant. they are both wepons and require respect. they both require skill. a wepon in the hands of someone that doesnot know what they are doing can be dangerous. just as a sword is usless in the hands of someone that is not skilled so is a gun or rifle. with a rifle it requires control of breathing and masteory of the body to be able to use. the recoil and suttle diffrences in how you hold a wepon can cause anyone to miss their target. can shoot some one as easyly as stabing them.

Top
#111390 - 12/30/03 06:48 PM Re: The new world weapons
AirborneDuke Offline
Stranger

Registered: 12/29/03
Posts: 2
Loc: United Kingdom
I have to say that as a soldier in the British Red Berets Airborne forces (2 Para) and having fought in the recent Gulf war against Iraq i totally disagree that there is no skill to modern weapons. Me and my men have to know first how to use the ground, it's cover and how to spot our enemy who will be trying his best also to use any cover he can find, then it's comes down to how best to take out that threat. It's no good blazing away. We could choose to have Delta giving suprresive fire while i take Charlie team either right or left flanking before taking my grenadier onto that position and assaulting it. Fire and maneuvere has to be mastered also. wether it be individual fire maneuver as a team of two men..Pairs fire and manevere as a fire team of four men.Squads fire and mmaneuvere as part of a section and so on and so forth.
Also, the honour in fighting and killing comes from men and women who fight for the freedom and liberty of others. I think that anyone fighting forthose things, for the sake of others, are extremely honourable indeed. And i say this not onnly because i have fought in Iraq, but because the people i fought alongside deserve that recognition also.

Top
#111391 - 12/31/03 03:09 AM Re: The new world weapons
fred6669 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 12/29/03
Posts: 4
Loc: Leeds, England
having so far no experience with swords or other martial arts equipment i can only really give a view on guns. i have shot just about every type of gun there is during my service in the air force (hand, shot, rifel((cant spell)) etc) any weapon used against someone is effective but wrong ALWAYS! guns can be just as fun or interesting as a martial art. there is different tecniques and ways of doing it but just as with martial arts if it is done in a controled enviroment its perfectly safe. weapons are designed to kill plane and simple but it doesnt mean they all have to be used for that! guns are favoured more now than knifes and swords because they are quick and easy and can be done from a distance! not dissing anyone's point of view but i agree with the majority. a weapon is only as deadly as the person who holds it!

Top
#111392 - 12/31/03 07:43 AM Re: The new world weapons
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi ABD

I accept that skills are required for whatever type of fighting is involved.

The origional post was I believe slightly different from that which you have suggested.

Yes, armies and soldiers are needed, but to state that there is honour in fighting for the freedom and liberty of others is while a natural thing to say, is not necessarily true. Armies and soldiers do not decide who they fight with and for what reasons. This is left with the governments and individuals who have interests that they consider far above honour and nothing to do with the freedom and liberty of others.

I have a number of friends in the armed forces and hold their proffesionalism in the highest regard.

But as for honour, I don't think it's necessarily to be found in wars.

JohnL

Top
#111393 - 01/05/04 01:23 PM Re: The new world weapons
Yojimbo558 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/00
Posts: 253
Loc: Marina, Ca. USA
Hi there,

Ok let's look at this...after the Warring States Period, Japan moved into its Dueling Phase. The Sword Arts Iaijutsu & Battojutsu were referred to by the peasants as "Crossroads Murder". You have romanticized the sword, because back then, the Samurai had rights while the peasants had none, as a result, these thugs had no penalties for testing their skill on unarmed individuals...just to see if they'd mastered the kill in one cut.

While there was a lot of honor, there were also plenty without. Musashi is heralded as Japan's greatest swordsman...and yet this guy cheated and was without honor.

Musashi stated that he owed his life to the fact that he had not encountered an experienced fighter earlier in his career and so he had a chance to learn.

Musashi violated the Japanese sensibilities by avoiding bathing for over a month, so that when he encountered his foe he stunk to high heaven...further distracting his opponent.

In addition Musashi would issue his challenges to occur a 1/2 hour before or sunrise or sunset. He would never show up on time, he'd let his opponenets adrenaline flush through their bodies as the time neared, and in the case of the morning challenges to let the chill hamper the warrior. At the time of sunrise or sunset he would finally appear, when the opponent had thought that he would be a no show. Musashi would come with the sun behind him & in most cases the opponent never saw his sword stroke.

In terms of the Japanese Musashi was considered huge and was considerably taller than the average Japanese. His already natural reach was longer than his opponents & was further extended when he chose to switch tactics and wield the sword with one hand.

As someone else pointed out...despite the thousands of lives, it was guns that enabled the Japanese to finally unite their nation under one ruler. Tokugawa recognized the power of the gun & after becoming Shogun realized that it was possible for other warlords to band together and use this same weapon to unseat him. So Tokugawa did 2 things, he began insinuating that the Daimyo were above entering combat and that such actions were for lessers. The purpose of this tactic was to reduce the number of Lords who had combat experience (( like he had )).

The second tactic was to over time remove the gun. Japan actually had larger gun and cannon battles than in Europe...but by the time Admiral Perry reached Japan, the nation had almost completely unlearned the art of firearms and cannons. Had Japan not unlearned firearms, Perry would never have been able to force Japan into opening her doors.

To associate modern weaponry as being completely lacking in skill and the weapon of sloths is stupid. I served 4 years in the Marines & heartily agree with the other servicemen -- to say that we aren't warrior & are lacking in skill is both foolish & shows yourselves to be completely lacking in any understanding of warfare. To be able to drop an opponent with one shot from 500 meters away is a skill, for a sharpshooter to take out the bad guy without hitting the hostage is a skill.

In Afghanistan, it hasn't been all push button weapons, our forces have battled in hand to hand engagements as well. In Iraq, our guys are constantly in a flux where things could go either firearms or hand to hand.

In WW II, our planes would have to shoot between 50 & 70 rockets to take out one Tank. Now it's one weapon to take out one tank. During Iraqi Freedom, we showed our weaponry to be accurate enough to take out tanks without harming the bridges they were parked under. The people of Afghanistan & Iraq have praised our advanced weaponry and instead of hiding, many have reported stayed and watching some of these battles like fireworks displays...because they don't fear getting hit from stray fire.

There are a whole host of skills when it comes to the modern warrior, be it firearms, bayonet fighting, hand-to-hand etc...but the good old days in Japan weren't so good if you were a Peasant for whom it was perfectly legal for the Samurai to kill you because you were available for them to practise their Iaijutsu or Battojutsu or because you hadn't dared to bow deeply enough for them.

Eric

Top
#111394 - 01/05/04 02:32 PM Re: The new world weapons
Shugyosha Offline
Stranger

Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 2
Loc: gb3386@yahoo.com
If I were to kill someone with a gun, it follows that they are dead. If I kill them with a blade They are not any more or less dead. I'm 100% for the study and pursuit of swordsmanship, but, to say that a sword is superior to a gun is utter foolishness. They are both weapons for killing. I can kill you with a sword, and I can kill you with a gun. Both ways your dead.

Weapons of choice. Weapons of the times.

Top
#111395 - 01/12/04 07:24 PM Re: The new world weapons
pod3 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 62
Obviously, none have considered the use of guns on an energetic level.

Top
#111396 - 01/12/04 09:36 PM Re: The new world weapons
Spiritus Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/26/03
Posts: 22
Loc: Madison
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
Disagree with you all.

You seem to have romanticised the past by attributing honour and glory to people who used the weapons of their time.

Garbage.

The samurai at their time were the thugs of the day.

A thug then would be a thug now, regardless of the weapons used.

JohnL

[/QUOTE]

Maybe... Which of us can brand each samurai with the title of "thug". We were not alive then and all we have today are remnants of the past. Remnants that do not give details of every single samurai. Before you make judgements such as that you should think.
As for the debate on the swords and the firearms, My opinion is as follows:
A sword is a weapon that is used to kill. Learning the art of the sword is learning how to kill. As with the gun, it is the same. Learning the art of the gun is also learning how to kill. However people are different, that indeed they are.
How a weapon is used depends on that individual. In wars, guns are used to kill, not to save. Like in the elder days of Japan, before the annihilation of the samurai and the coming of the Meiji Era, people fought using swords. people would kill using the sword. There were some though who used their swords to save people, instead of kill.
This same principle can be applied to the gun. One does not have to aim for the head or a vital area. As with a sword, one does not have to decapitate or strike a fatal blow.
I have seen two Japanese anime in which these principles are always applied. They are "Rurouni Kenshin" and "Trigun". If you ever have the chance, watch these. I live by the art of protecting the lives of all and using the sword to save and not kill.
I know it is not possible for this ideal to spread throughout the world for it has changed, people have changed. But the fact still remains; a weapon is a tool for killing unless wielded by one who would use it in an otherwise way.

Top
#111397 - 03/24/04 07:32 PM Re: The new world weapons
purplenurple Offline
Stranger

Registered: 03/23/04
Posts: 2
Loc: Vernon Hills, IL
Hogtooth is absolutely right, I think he makes the most sense of any of you guys. don't get me wrong, I still love traditional weaponry, I just think hogtooth knows what he is talking about and I for one agree with him.

Top
#111398 - 03/25/04 08:51 PM Re: The new world weapons
rustedbrolly Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/24/04
Posts: 20
Loc: Renton, Washington, US
Every one in this post has a good point. Both weapons are used to kill. In the case of mastering and using the weapons, I would have to say guns are more efficient. With sword fighting it can take years to master the skills, but with guns it takes usually under a year to learn how to shoot properly. Guns are also more usefull in combat. A sword cannot be concealed easily, but a gun can be broken down and stored in a pocket, then quickly assembled in seconds. Now, I perfer swords above all else, and would choose that over a gun as long as I knew what I was up against. If you pitted a Master swordsmen against an advanced Marksman, I believe the swordsman would win. I read that some Samurai could move faster than the human eye and draw so fast that the air crackles behind the blade. With a gunman, you need to use your eyes to focus on your target, and usually the target isn't moving so fast. This is my first post ever and I hope you guys wont go too hard on me.

Top
#111399 - 03/28/04 01:10 PM Re: The new world weapons
Winduril Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/27/04
Posts: 14
I'd still prefer a world of swords. As somebody very intelligently put earlier, even if a 4 year can shoot the world's best soldier and kill him easily, a 4 year old can also cut down the world's best swordsman with a sword easily. However, I don't like the range idea.

It's hard for me to fathom the skill some soldiers have to use in order to stay alive when bullets hundreds of yards away can come whizzing by and tear them, to shreds. Guns are weapons of destruction, as are swords, but with swords, I feel a more definitive grasp that since the men have to be fairly close to execute their attack, each warrior has a chance of winning.

If a sniper was on a hill and he shot a man 500 yards away, the victim would have no say. With a sword, the victim could have a chance against his murderer. The ancients obviously recognized the use of the former and created the bow and arrow, another weapon I detest. So basically, if you were wanting a summary to all my rambling just now, it'd be I'd prefer swords because there isn't a chance of being killed from far away without the chance to return a death blow.

And if you didn't get the stressing in my post, I am not saying guns are cheap and do not require skill. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Top
#111400 - 03/28/04 03:38 PM Re: The new world weapons
rustedbrolly Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/24/04
Posts: 20
Loc: Renton, Washington, US
Windural, think of this. You are in the woods being hunted by a man who is far more skilled than you in swordfighting. Would you want to fight him knowing that, without a doubt, you would be killed? Or, if you had a gun, you could kill him first without risking your life in a suicide attack.
Now, I would use swords above all else, but if I had another way to win without putting myself in too much danger, I would choose a gun. All weapons have proper uses at proper times.

Top
#111401 - 03/28/04 04:34 PM Re: The new world weapons
Winduril Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/27/04
Posts: 14
No I thinking of the "I'm taking you with me" philosophy...of course, he could always decapitate me and I would have no oppurtunity to do payback, but yea.... Please don't tell me you're suggesting in that kind of situation I would prefer a sword to a gun...cuz that's not what I said at all.

Top
#111402 - 03/29/04 05:50 PM Re: The new world weapons
rustedbrolly Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/24/04
Posts: 20
Loc: Renton, Washington, US
Sorry, I misintermpeted what you were saying.

Top
#111403 - 05/10/04 09:18 AM Re: The new world weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


Greetings everyone, I have followed this thread with close interest and have decided to register here just to reply.

With all due respect, there have been some very stupid replies made here, whether contradictory, incorrect, completely off-topic etc.

I don't really wish to post my view here, but more just to vent my frustration at some of these replies.

But the only thing I will say for now is that if modern weapons require no skill whatsoever, why do our nations even have armies? Surely it would be far cheaper to just hand out the weapons to the general population and let them get on with it? Did any of you consider that?

I would like to say that I have been both in the army cadets here in the UK (using both SA80's and fuly automatic LSW's), and also used Katana. Both require extreme skill and focus and both are extremely deadly. It is not 'easy' to use a firearm against a target. In fact it's far easier to empty a full clip at somebody and miss with every round (especially so with an AK47 on continous fire, since they have terrible aim and are better suited to keeping the enemies' heads down).

That's all I can be bothered to say right now. I don't want to get contradictory with myself I am just taking a balanced view on this.

Top
#111404 - 05/11/04 01:22 AM Re: The new world weapons
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Anyone who thinks there is no skill in using any "modern" weapon doesn't know what they are talking about. Lets try a little distinction here. Most are calling the sword an "old world weapon" and the gun a modern weapon. Either your forgetting or you don't realize guns and swords co-existed in Japan. When teh japanese begun using fire arms in battle along with swords the death count by the sword didn't drop as much as some of you would think. We know this for a fact due to the maticulous notes kept by the japanese on the cause of death, type and number of injuries sustained by there soldiers. The true advantage of fire arms is range and the ability to kill or injure more in less time. The skill level to do this is no lower than that of a sword. With fire arms there are stances, breathing technique, speed and accuracy training involved. Just like with any martial art studied today or any other time. Some say you can just push a button and launch a missile. Get educated on the subject before you make an ignorant statement, before i get hounded for calling anyone ignorant look up the definition. Most of you have no idea about the 45 min to an hour of planning it takes after you know where the target is just to launch a missile. That sniper that is going to take you out from 500yrds? Don't you think he had extensive training? Do you think you can just take a riffle and scope and go hide in the hills and pick people off? This isn't Halo. Bottom line is any weapon you can think of has it's own "art form", they all take training and skill to use effectively. Any one can pick up any weapon with no training and kill someone, it's how efficiently you can kill with that weapon. I've seen archers who are faster and more accurate with a bow than most people i've seen with a gun. Weapons are still just a tool, but so is the human body, just a tool of the mind and emotion.

Top
#111405 - 01/09/05 06:05 PM Re: The new world weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hello. I read this thread, and I know everyone had very good points to bring to the table. Swords and guns are both tools of death. In a simple summary, they both take the same amount of time to master. The only true differences are range, and the fact that guns use ammo. Even after that however, they can still do their melee damage. I enjoyed reading this thread.

Top
#111406 - 01/11/05 04:37 PM Re: The new world weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


The decline in society's values births a large amount of the said "thugs", and yes, a lot of them have absolutely no skill with the sword or the gun. The samurai did things like murder because they knew they could get away with it. Some were "thugs" and others did know what was right and wrong. I don't see too much of a difference except weapon and time.

Top
#111407 - 01/12/05 09:15 AM Re: The new world weapons
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
I disagree. Guns are much easier to "master" than a katana. I'd wager it takes a good 30 years or so to really come to level of competency with a sword that anyone could legitimately consider you to have any degree of "mastery". You can become a certified sharp shooter in any one of our 4 military branches in just a few short years of training.

Top
#111408 - 01/15/05 08:41 AM Re: The new world weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


And that's a bad thing?!

Let me draw a parallel here:
I make artwork (or so I've been told) by digital means (chiefly).
The debate "digital vs. traditional art" is quite similar to this one.
- digital is more accessible
- digital is quicker
Some say "that's not art; it can never rival with oil on canvas"
If we have the means to do something BETTER and FASTER, is it not uttely stupid NOT to use them?

What the "new world weapons" lack is respect, but imagine 1000 years from now, when firearms will be the swords of today. It's just a matter of time.

Point Two:
Whether it's with a thermonuclear bomb, a shotgun, a katana, a kitchen knife or a rusty nail, it's still killing. Do you think guns take the drama out of death?
- Would one be more able to kill with a gun than a sword? Could very well be.
- Would one be more willing to kill with a gun than a sword?

Conclusion time.
Human civilization is all about evolution: we do things better and better, and we get better and better at doing things better.
What we must avoid is being pinheaded.
What we must remember is the memory of the ones before us, and that without them, we wouldn't be here.

Top
#111409 - 01/15/05 03:35 PM Re: The new world weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


i apologise here if it is straying a little from what people are saying, but can you shoot another bullet out of the air? it's almost impossible to do, however you can parry an attacking sword, so really guns are used simply for killing, where as a sword can be used for self defence

Top
#111410 - 01/15/05 04:33 PM Re: The new world weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


i apologise if this is goin a bit off what people have said, but when somebody swings a sword at you you can block it if you have training, however with a gun, no matter how much training you get, you can't shoot another bullet out of the air, also sword training is much more honourable, and if you have the patience to train with a sword then you have enough honour to not use it for killing, so how can people say that swords are made for killing. Again i apologise if this has gone off track of what people have said.

Dale

Top
#111411 - 01/15/05 10:20 PM Re: The new world weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


Gentlemen, I believe we are missing the point here. A sword is a weapon, just like a gun, weapons are meant for killing. No matter what you use, a gun, a club, a sword, etc its still an instrument to slain your fellow men. There is nothing honorable in murder. The honor is in your caracter, in your heart. Defense? You mean that you plan on parrying your EVERY ONE of your opponent's cuts? Please! Eventually you'd had to make a cut of your own to end the fight or you'd lost the duel. No matter how much you revere the blade, it is still an instrument of death, nothing more. Not much different than a gun or a bow.

C. Roman

Top
#111412 - 01/19/05 06:21 PM Re: The new world weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


i beleive that the sword is faster than the gun if used properly for the sole reason the gun stops and starts the sword is a continuouse motion. it took skill to weild a sword with that great of accuracy. now adays in a war the nukes do enough damage to targets they dont have to hit it for like a 6 mile radius. and no samurai may have bullied but the real thugs were ronin and ninja

Top
#111413 - 02/05/05 02:41 PM Re: The new world weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


going back a bit, when people are saying that samurai are thugs (i'm not saying i know alot about samurai) but the samurai lived by a code of honour they were tought that if they drew their sword and didn't kill anybody with it then you must comit suicide, while this sounds like being a bit sick, it teaches you not to draw your sword in anger, if i have got anythng wrong here then i apologise

Top
#111414 - 02/05/05 04:19 PM Re: The new world weapons
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Um Dale? Think about it for a second. If you can't draw your sword without killing someone, how do you clean it? How do you train? How do you have a new saya made? How do you have it polished?

The idea that they had to kill someone is just a silly idea. The idea that all samurai in all regions of Japan in all timeframes did anything the same way or had the same code of ethics is also silly. You need to do study up on history a bit.

Top
#111415 - 02/05/05 11:31 PM Re: The new world weapons
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
We have a "code" we are to follow in the military too. Look at some of the stupid crap we pull.

I've also read in a couple different articles that the samurai's "code of honor" didn't originate until more peaceful times in Japan. Kind of a way to show their worth in a time when their "value" was diminishing due to living in a more peaceful period.

Top
#111416 - 02/09/05 01:22 PM Re: The new world weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


i dont believe that a weapon is innately honorable or that weapons have any honor at all, what i do believe is that the range of a weapon makes it better or worse, personal or impersonal, in other words all long range weapons **** . whats lost with a a bullet from sixty feet is the personal part of with a close rang weapon sword or even a gun you get to feel the pain and watch as life slips out of another but from twenty meters or in the case of bombs even more than that you lose most of that.

Top
#111417 - 02/09/05 03:35 PM Re: The new world weapons
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by seven7:
whats lost with a a bullet from sixty feet is the personal part of with a close rang weapon sword or even a gun you get to feel the pain and watch as life slips out of another ...[/QUOTE]

Dude. Keep writing stuff like that and people are gonna start thinking you need thearpy.

Top
#111418 - 02/20/05 09:20 PM Re: The new world weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


anyone can pull a trigger and hit a target but it takes more skill and consentration to cut someones head off with a katana.

Top
#111419 - 02/20/05 11:26 PM Re: The new world weapons
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
This has already been said and is wrong. There are far more people who CAN'T hit a target than you would think. Sharp shooting and sniper training can take years for someone to get good at.

Yes anyone can just pick up a gun and start shooting, but anyone can pick up a sword and start swinging too. It's shooting or swinging the blade properly that takes practice.

Top
#111420 - 02/21/05 11:33 AM Re: The new world weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


i agree laf, anyone who says it easy to shoot should go out rabbit shooting or hunting of some type and see for themselves how hard it actually is to hit your mark.

as an aussie ive done a fair bit of roo/pig/rabbit shooting in my time and i can tell you that it aint as easy as it sounds.

guns dont kill
swords dont kill
they are tools
PEOPLE kill

Top
#111421 - 03/11/05 11:27 AM Re: The new world weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


one smart man said once "From inside fortifications, the gun has no equal among weapons. It is the supreme weapon on the field before the ranks clash, but once swords are crossed the gun becomes useless." i want you just think about that [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Top
#111422 - 03/11/05 11:37 AM Re: The new world weapons
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
That was true with muskets. Not so true since the revolver and cartridge based ammo. Otherwise the modern militaries would have adopted it. Name me one modern military that still sends troops into the field with a sword on their hip for use when the fighting gets in close.

Think on that.

Top
#111423 - 03/11/05 12:50 PM Re: The new world weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


good point :P

Top
#111424 - 03/11/05 01:54 PM Re: The new world weapons
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Just watched a compare/contrast kinda thing on the Military Channel with the M-16 and the AK-47.

One of the things specifically mentioned was performance in Vietnam.

The AK-47, constructed of heavier wood and metal parts could and often was used as a clubbing/striking weapon at close range with little damage done to the weapon.

The M-16, which was constucted in great parts of composites--was said to "break" when used in a similar fashion.

The Russians, the Vietnamese, and former US troops all more or less agreed about that.

Top
#111425 - 03/11/05 02:24 PM Re: The new world weapons
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
The winner of a bayonet fight is the man who still has a bullet left in his chamber. Not a direct quote but close enough. I believe that was Rommel talking.

Top
#111426 - 03/14/05 01:45 PM Re: The new world weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


Muse i fully agree whit you but let me tell you war isnt about a fait fight its about conquer your porpuse and a gun is the easiest in that way war just aint fair

Top
#111427 - 03/14/05 01:59 PM Re: The new world weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


i agree with muse swordsman and stfu John L, ur prob just some 30year old retard who sits on the pc all day and developing your own under the stairs language, you have no interest in martial arts whatsoever so just **** off u smarmy pre-pubesant little git! sincerely, sukotto

Top
#111428 - 03/14/05 02:04 PM Re: The new world weapons
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Well... John L hasn't posted in this thread in more than a year so I doubt he's gonna see your reply anytime soon. Still he was a moderator and your attack on him comes off as very petty. Attacking him personally rather than attacking his ideas and arguements is not gonna win you any friends nor respect.

From the forum rules "Please avoid foul language and name calling. If you disagree with something that has been written, there is a right way and a wrong way to disagree. A spirited debate is a good thing as long as the participants can disagree without being disagreeable."

[This message has been edited by Charles Mahan (edited 03-14-2005).]

Top
#111429 - 03/14/05 11:13 PM Re: The new world weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have a few points to make in this string;
at first I was pro sword & anti-gun (entirely) until I had expirience with guns (basic target shooting with a rifle my dad owns). I still prefer sword to gun but realize that unfortunately swords will most likely not be coming back to mainstream warfare.

As for the comparisson part of this debate. A gun (any form) to a sword, (also any form) is like comparring (and this is going back really far) a knife or sword to a fist.

The trainig aspect of the gun is just as hard as trainig with the sword. The gunmans training is shorter, but they both possess the same (or damn close to) quality.

Also training with either recreationally is merely that, recreational. And as I have noticed both teach and instill the value of life. either protecting or taking.

[This message has been edited by SwordCritter (edited 03-15-2005).]

Top
#111430 - 03/17/05 11:00 PM Re: The new world weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


I personally think that the debate,though new is one of a long standing virtue-missile vs melee.Primitive warfare(or so as we call it,being influenced by greek strategies) relied on fighting from a distance,with little or no exposure of the warrior to direct and immediate injury.It was the predominant style till the greeks burst upon the scene.They introduced,if not for the first time in the known world,the concept of a decisive battle,where irrespective of the possibility of sustaining harm,soldiers joined battle in level fields.The concepts of western warfare have greatly been influenced by this.Guns,bows,etc are missile weapons.It seems quite logical therefore,that the wielders of the weapons which require close proximity with the opponent and his weapon look down upon them.Even though tremendous skill is reqiured to operate say a composite bow or an M60,they are not liked by those who think being face to face with a28 inch blade to be bravery.That is the reason why guns were outlawed in tokugawa japan,crossbowmen massacred in europe(chevalier sans peur et sans reproche).The point is not whether the missile weapon is inferior or not.it is that they make the killing impersonal and deatched,not any more/less dangerous.

Top
#111431 - 03/19/05 12:04 AM Re: The new world weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


What are your sources for your knowledge on Greek warfare???

If people before the Greeks killed from a distance, and the Greeks cahnged all this, isn't that a step back? Take WW1 as an example, old charging tactics didn't seem to work too well against machine guns, so why would the Greeks charge into a hailstorm of enemy javelins?

I don't know where you get your info on Greek warfare, but the Greeks certainly used javelins, and the peoples before them certainly engaged in close arms combat with swords and shields. The movies Troy and Alexander aren't the best examples of Greeks fighting, lol. If you've ever read the Odyssey, Iliad, or Aeneid, you would know that javelins were a huge part of their warefare. You also have to define Greeks, they were all independent city-states who were almost constantly at war with each other, except for periods like the Persian Wars. Ancinet warefare up until Gaius Marius, who redefined the Roman legions and created the world's first true (and extremely modern for it's time) professional standing army, was a giant wall of men on opposing sides of the field with whatever weapons they had from their homes/farms, charging at one another. Until Marius, there was no "archer section", or "sling section" or "javelin section" they were all clumped together in the same giant mass.

The great Greek tactic I believe you are tryin to get at is the Phalanx, which is a wall of men with interlocking shields and long spears or pikes.

Update a few years to the new Roman legions Marius instituted: The Legions were broken down into smaller units called Cohorts 100-1000 troops, much more manuveralble than a mass of 5000 guys. Secondly, all weapons, food, supplies, and armor is provided by the government, a very modern breakthrough for the "ancients".

Thirdly, all equipment was made uniform, each man provided with the same equpment for his appropriate unit. Typically along with their sword and shield, Roman Leginaries were given a couple of "Pila, pl. Pilae", which were Javelins that they threw before charging or as the enemy advanced. They also came up with the "testudo" or Turtle formation, which was a shell of shields, to protect them from missile fire.

The point here is that whether you are talking about today: with guns, "push button bombs", reomte control planes, missiles
Japan: guns, swords, bow and arrow
even older times (ROmans and Greeks): swords, bows, javelins, slings
the idea of proximity has always been an issue. To say that guns are easier to kill with because they are less personal, or less honorable because you are not "up close and personal" compared with a sword is ridiculous.
I have never weilded a sword or a gun, no need, no training.

Based on 1000's of years of warfare, anyone can kill anyone else with anything, regardless of age, weapon, ANY variable. The idea of killing an enemy with a minimum of danger to yourself, ie, DISTANCE/RANGE is something that has simply evolved over the centuries.

Yes, long range weapons do have a certain detachment, the enemy aint all up in ur grill, lol. But that doesn't make killing another hunam being any easier, does it?

On the idea of Honor, or Justice, or Bravery, or Courage, or Virtue, I strongly, STRONGLY recomend reading the Aenead by Virgil (Pay CLOSE attention to the ending) then making a decision on whether or not using a sword or a gun makes you more honorable/courageous/virtuous/brave/justified... or less.

[This message has been edited by UofM Shorin Ryu (edited 03-19-2005).]

[This message has been edited by UofM Shorin Ryu (edited 03-19-2005).]

[This message has been edited by UofM Shorin Ryu (edited 03-19-2005).]

Top
#111432 - 03/19/05 05:34 AM Re: The new world weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


I am not saying that it is easier to kill with missile weapons.I am saying that it might seem easier to peopl who were primararily into melee weapons.As for greek warfare,Ia gree entirely that javelins played a prominent part.Yet,the phalanx is certainly one of the main components of their army.quoting herodotus,'once the geeks go to war,they choose the best and the smoothest places andgo down and have battleon that'hoplite used hoplon and the right hand couched the spear between elbow and ribs.Thucydides remarked that due to this,a phalanx tended to slip to its right,each man to his neighbour's shield.Homer depicts a proto phalanx in the iliad.assyrians,persians,sumerian all had a warfare charecterised by tentativeness,fights at and from a distance,reliance on missiles and reluctance of coming at an arms length till victory ewas assured.The greeks discarded these hesitations,the battle was fought as a decisive act,and dedicated their lives to victory,at the risk of death or bloody defeat.I did mean to not say that they were the only ones to do this.I wanted to say rthat they have influenced us in a lasting way.As for the ease with which agunman or archer dispatches his target,I specifically remember saying that it was no easier to use a gun or a bow than a sword.And for my references on greek history and warfare-Vc.hanson 'the western way of war'
-n hammond'the history of greece'
-j.keegan'a history of warfare'
-herodotus'histories'

Top
#111433 - 03/19/05 11:49 AM Re: The new world weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


Alright, I see what you're tryin to say. I agree on almost everything, but a few details.

I think the Herodotus quote is taken a little out of context. If I remember correctly, that quote was said by a Greek turncoat (Melanthius?), who's name escapes me. The purpose was to convince the current king of Persia to attack Greece, since they fought such decisive battles with high casualties. He himself knew the power the Greeks had, that's why their army was so massive.
Also, Herodotus' descriptions of the weapons and attire of the Persian army should help show what kind of fighting the Persians did, if I remember (that's a big IF though), several of the units described primarily had swords, not javelins or slings. Herodotus IS a historian, but his account is biased nonetheless. He wrote around 70 years after the fact, so his account automatically leans towards Athens. I believe Thucidides is much better, he wrote of the Peloponnesian war in which he himself took part in.

Reread your posts, you were right about the swords/guns being easier or harder to fire, and I do agree that someone who primarily fights with a sword MIGHT feel that bows are inferior weapons, but not entirely. If bows were regarded in this way from a civilization that used swords and spears, then Odysseus would not have used a bow to kill the suitors, and their gods, especially Artemis, would not have a bow as their weapon of choice, so to speak.

Top
#111434 - 03/19/05 12:12 PM Re: The new world weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Winduril:


If a sniper was on a hill and he shot a man 500 yards away, the victim would have no say. With a sword, the victim could have a chance against his murderer. The ancients obviously recognized the use of the former and created the bow and arrow, another weapon I detest. So basically, if you were wanting a summary to all my rambling just now, it'd be I'd prefer swords because there isn't a chance of being killed from far away without the chance to return a death blow.

And if you didn't get the stressing in my post, I am not saying guns are cheap and do not require skill. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]


Uh, what "ancinets" would these be? The Greeks? They had a whole process of supplication, where warriors would grasp the knees and the chin of their attacker and beg for their lives. Read Odysseus, Herodotus, Thucidides, Virgil, or any number of Greek/Roman writers. There is always a moment where the hero will have someone supplicating at his knees, begging for their lives, and the hero will say something, then ram his sword through their throats. In the RARE case that the supplicant would be accepted, he became a slave of that person. There are also several mosaics depicting these events of supplication, so saying that someone might have a better chance against a sword than against a bow ins't necessarily true. Skill would help determine the winner there, along with countless other factors in a fight.

Roman Legionairs were given a sword, shield, and Pilae to throw. They threw them before charging, or as the enemy charged. Long range weapons are simply W E A P O N S, they are used to kill, just like swords, just like guns. People don't get extra "honor points" or "bravery points" for killing someone up close with a sword, and they don't lose "points" for throwing a spear and impaling the poor dude.

Honor was highly regarded among Greeks and Romans, especially in battle. If it was such a demeaning and cowardly thing to kill from a distance, why would they have their greatest heroes being praised for killing an enemy using their spears and javelins? Why would their gods be depicted with bows and arrows, instead of swords?

Top
#111435 - 03/19/05 01:23 PM Re: The new world weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


Guns exist. Their existence is a condtion of our existing in the present. Not liking them, and wishing they did not exist, is to reject reality. I prefer to accept reality, to acklowledge that the world is as it is.

As a student of the martial (pertaining to war) arts, I have trained in their use. How could I call myself a student of the martial arts and not train in ALL martial arts, both classical and modern?

Guns, bombs, rockets, etc., are the result of thousands of years of progressing military (martial) technology. The idea is to strike your enemy from a great enough distance that prevents him from striking you.

One of the primary tactics in all martial arts (both empty handed and with weapons) is to maintian a distance from your opponent whereby you can close to strike him, but step back to evade him. Is this cowardly? No, it is the way of fighting. Guns and other more recent technology are merely further advancements of this tactic.

The ways of war have always been a terrible thing. Violence between humans is always undesireable.
This is, however, a part of the human condition, and we have only one choice: Do we face reality and fight, or run and hide from it? I choose to face facts and fight. To do otherwise would not only be be cowardly, but irrational.
Runners must eventually stop running, and the hidden are almost always eventually discovered.

Face reality! These weapons exist, and you had better develop a plan of defence for them!

Top
#111436 - 03/20/05 01:43 AM Re: The new world weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by TaoistJohn:
Guns exist. Their existence is a condtion of our existing in the present. Not liking them, and wishing they did not exist, is to reject reality. I prefer to accept reality, to acklowledge that the world is as it is.

As a student of the martial (pertaining to war) arts, I have trained in their use. How could I call myself a student of the martial arts and not train in ALL martial arts, both classical and modern?

Guns, bombs, rockets, etc., are the result of thousands of years of progressing military (martial) technology. The idea is to strike your enemy from a great enough distance that prevents him from striking you.

One of the primary tactics in all martial arts (both empty handed and with weapons) is to maintian a distance from your opponent whereby you can close to strike him, but step back to evade him. Is this cowardly? No, it is the way of fighting. Guns and other more recent technology are merely further advancements of this tactic.

The ways of war have always been a terrible thing. Violence between humans is always undesireable.
This is, however, a part of the human condition, and we have only one choice: Do we face reality and fight, or run and hide from it? I choose to face facts and fight. To do otherwise would not only be be cowardly, but irrational.
Runners must eventually stop running, and the hidden are almost always eventually discovered.

Face reality! These weapons exist, and you had better develop a plan of defence for them!
[/QUOTE]


True, we live in reality, where guns are the weapons, and swords and heavy steel armor have no value in wars. I'm going to assume when you say people run, that you mean people are running from reality, and not from battle.

[This message has been edited by UofM Shorin Ryu (edited 03-22-2005).]

Top
#111437 - 03/23/05 11:37 PM Re: The new world weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


one must also keep in mind that there is a certain connection made when someone dies or is severly wounded directly at the hands of an other in some sort of face to face combat, the gun,and other such modern marvels have enabled people to forget about the emotional aspect to war and death, so it's easier to deal it out to the enemy

Top
#111438 - 03/29/05 11:07 PM Re: The new world weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


Modern weapons are the best weapons around. The ancient weapons were better in the fact that they were part of mental, spritual, and physical development.

Top
#111439 - 03/30/05 04:24 AM Re: The new world weapons
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
I think I understand what the discussion is about, but I am pretty concerned with how much opinion is being thrown around without a lot of history behind it.

For instance, there is a lot of talk about how effective a sword is in the modern world. Apparently people in this discussion have forgotten that in many countries around the word swords and machetes are still used to settle disputes.

On the other hand, whether its romantically satisfying or not the introduction of the firearm by the Dutch and Portugese effectively spelled the end of classical warfare in Japan, China and Korea beginning in the 1500-s. Reason for this? The firearm WAS easier to use! A farmer with 90 days training could kills a swordsman with a lifetime of training.

I guess where I am going with this is that maybe there needs to be a bit more use of facts and a little less "labeling" of this or that as "good" or "bad". Historically anyone who didn't stand toe-to-toe with their enemy and duke it out was considered some kind of coward. But this status changes radically as one moves from circumstance to circumstance. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Top
#111440 - 03/30/05 06:29 PM Re: The new world weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


Just in case anyone cares I'll post. Listen guns are just fine. Swords are just fine. Do you get that? I'm saying that sometimes it's okay to use a gun others a sword. It is all just in personal opinion/need. I do admit I consider swordsmanship honorable and not gunmanship. I think after much thinking it depends on the person's skill set. If you specialize in handguns you are a serious fighter, if your a swordsman your just as serious. You need a whole lot of disipline for both items.

Top
#111441 - 04/01/05 03:48 PM Re: The new world weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


while it does take a lot longer to learn martial arts than it does to learn to shoot right. as harrison ford proved in raiders of the lost ark (i think it was that one) while useing swords is very cool and all, when one is holing swords at ready i could juist shoot him i win.

Top
#111442 - 04/05/05 01:52 PM Re: The new world weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Muse Swordsman:
I believe that todays weapons such as guns and bombs are the lowest form of weaponry. A child can pull a trigger or press a button. Old world weapons(staffs,swords,the body)are true art forms and take practice over years of training to master . I just want to know if there are others out there who feel how I do. [/QUOTE]


Not so. Fighting with firearms and grenades (or 'bombs') is just as skillful.

It is true that a child can pull a trigger, but a child can't shoot worth a damn. It takes skill not only aim, shoot, control recoil, and operate the gun properly, but there is also a tremendous amount of skill involved in avoiding being shot through use of tactics, proper cover, etc.

Any weapon is an extention of your body and can be used as simply and ineffectively, or as artfully and surgically, as is demonstrated by the skill of the wielder.

Top
#111443 - 04/10/05 10:30 AM Re: The new world weapons
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'd love for you to bring this argument to a accomplished special forces soldier, or a navy seal, or any military personell who kept their cool in times of war to save people like you's asses.

Firearms require a great deal of skill to use, moreso even than swords. This goes towards maintaining, reloading, aiming, right breathing and movements, state of mind, positioning, fixing jams, leading targets.

What about overall tactics? Developing fireing lines, looking for cover, staying behind fireing lines, complex advancement and retreating under fire. This is just small teams with small arms, now throw chance of airstrikes, grenades, boobytraps, snipers, anything into the mix. That is much more intense than leading troops in an ancient battle.

Guns are easy to learn, but take time to master. Combat marksmanship is more than just aiming and shooting, it's keeping a sight picture while moving, controlling recoil while moving, maintaning and reloading under fire, keeping an effective stance while fireing (yes, there is footwork to marksmanship).

And that is just a grunt with a rifle. Now lets think about the snipers, they have to deal with compensating wind and gravity, timeing their breath, keeping quiet and absolutly still for days on end.

As much as you would like to believe, even the most accomplished soldier in a stealth situation would perfer a silenced m9 to a knife.

Top
#111444 - 04/10/05 11:00 AM Re: The new world weapons
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Don't forget shooting under stressful situations. You would be amazed at how many people can't hit a target 3 yards in front of them when their heart rate is up. I've seen people fail the M16 shoot simple because they couldn't keep their eye focused on the front site through the rear aperture, they kept blurring out.

People keep wanting to reduce shooting to it's most basic, pulling the trigger. Like i have said many times this isn't a proper comparison. If you reduce sword fighting to it's most basic anyone can swing a blade. It's how you use each weapon and the tactics and techniques involved that require training.

Top
#111445 - 05/04/05 04:30 AM Re: The new world weapons [Re: laf7773]
Sifer2 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 05/04/05
Posts: 1
Well in my opinion Swords an other weapons used in the Martial Arts are certainly more romantic. Fencers can duel back an forth an have fun but Guns only kill. That's not to say Guns are bad because they are simply a tool to be used. As for whether it takes skill to use a Gun I would say yes. Especially a weapon like a Rifle. Proper breathing, grip, squeeze the trigger. There is concentration an skill involved in using a Firearm. If there was not then it would not be an Olympic Sport. But in the real world people dont have epic Gun Battles back an forth or have a Showdown at High Noon. Sometimes its best to just take a reality check an see the weapons for what they are. Respect them an use them properly an just hope others do the same.

Top
Page 1 of 11 1 2 3 ... 10 11 >


Moderator:  Charles Mahan, Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Fight Videos
Night club fight footage and street fights captured with the world's first bouncer spy cam

How to Matrix!
Learn ten times faster with new training method. Learn entire arts for as little as $10 per disk.

Self Defense
Stun guns, pepper spray, Mace and self defense products. Alarms for personal and home use.

TASER MC26C
Stop An Urban Gorilla: Get 2 FREE TASER M26C Replacement Air Cartridges With Each New TASER M26C!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga