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#111267 - 07/24/03 09:35 AM Re: Who would win up close
MAGon Offline

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Some years ago, I had occasion to attend a four day training seminar given by a fella by the name of Jim Crews, who I understand was the former provost of the Gunsite training facility under Jeff Cooper (Nice guy, great training, specially if you consider that the guy is a road show and his training props of necessity is stuff that he has to be able to break down and stow in his SUV and a small trailer he lugs around).
Anyhoo, one of the drills consisted of a silhoutte target mounted on a cart. It was "powered" by another of the guys, pulling on a long rope attached to the cart. The object of the drill was for the trainee to stand 21 ft. away from the cart and facing it, weapon holstered and on "safe". The rope was long enough that the fellow "powering" the cart stood at least a further 10 ft. away to the rear of the trainee, who couldn't see him, as the runner was to his back. Crews would also be standing to the rear of the shooter, far enough to remain unseen, but close enough to grab and control the shooter if safety became an issue. At a signal from Crews, the runner would take off at his stop speed, with no warning to the shooter, thereby pulling the cart/ silhoutte towards the shooter. This was meant to simulate a surprise charge from a knife wielding assailant, 21 ft. away. The shooter was expected to stand his ground, shout "Halt" or "Stop", draw his weapon and put a controlled double tap into the silhouette's center of mass and, if possible, transition to a final head shot. What an eye- opener!!! As this was an intermediate course, all participants had at least some experience. Some shooters became so stressed by the charging target that they got hung up on their draw and the gun never cleared the holster. Others only managed one shot, many missing or scoring only when the target was almost upon them. Only one guy, on his second try, managed two center mass/ transition/ head shots, but only by removing his jacket, so that his draw wouldn't be encumbered by having to clear it.
When it was my turn, I managed to complete the drill both times and get the two center mass shots, but the target was close to, or within, arms length by the second shot. Also, to this day I can't be sure if I managed a flash front sight picture or merely managed to point shoot, it was so fast. In spite of KNOWING that it was an inanimate target and not a knife wielding psycho, I finished both drills shaking like a leaf from the adrenaline dump. After the drill, Crews told us the object of it was to prove the near impossibility of defeating a charging assailant holding a knife, from 21 ft. or less, from the draw, and to give us an idea of the stress levels involved. In his advanced handgun training he did the same drill, this time teaching the shooter to move back in the oblique (Away from the direct line of the charge) while engaging the target.
The guy who managed the center mass/ head shot combo was a member of my former shooting club ("The Choirboys" in Miami, Fl. Great bunch, I miss 'em!!). He liked the drill so much that he got Crews' permission to copy his cart thingy, built one and introduced it on one of our next regular shoots. Since these guys were all experienced enthusiasts, they refused to just stand still for the charge (These wily old foxes knew better!!!). So when it was done, ALL engaged while retreating in the oblique. Although all these guys succeeded in getting off the center mass double tap while the opponent was kept out of reach, ALL also had to grudgingly admit that it hadn't been a walk in the park!!! It's good that they admitted it up front, 'cause if they hadn't I'd've been scared into thinking there was a Malaria outbreak in the group, there were so many "shakers" in the bunch!!! [IMG][/IMG]
BTW, "the shakes" always made an appearance whenever we did this drill. I don't think anyone ever got over 'em. I know I sure as hell didn't!!! [IMG][/IMG]

[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 07-24-2003).]

[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 07-24-2003).]

[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 07-24-2003).]

[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 07-24-2003).]

#111268 - 08/02/03 09:16 AM Re: Who would win up close
Jamoni Offline

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
in a related vein, how useful are soft vest against blades? And why do cops have their necks exposed? I'd think some kind of "leatherneck" for beat cops would be nice. It could look like a turtleneck, but be made of woven steel or something. Come to think of it, I'm going down to the workshop now...

#111269 - 08/18/03 03:37 PM Re: Who would win up close
judderman Offline

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
we use anti stab vests at work, I believe they are Kevlar or similar tight woven material. They showed us one that had been through some ballistics tests. The vest managed to stop a .22 .38 and significantly slowed a .44 round. I'm unsure at what distance this was, but I would say that the vests are VERY useful, if not somewhat cumbersome. As for not protecting the neck, I guess the theory is that the torso would be a primary target, which certainly holds true for a stabbing action, but not necassarily a slashing action.


#111270 - 08/18/03 08:50 PM Re: Who would win up close
Raven Offline

Registered: 04/13/03
Posts: 549
Loc: Sin City
well...all I know is that at 7 meters anybody with a small bit of hand eye coordination can pull out the gun and shoot, so let's say its a 9mm handgun, most of the handguns launch the bullet anywhere from like 1300 to 1500 feet per second, thats more than enough speed then need to kill a man, and who ever said the guy with the gun has only ONE bullet, whats wrong with shooting more than once? Officers in America and special operations around the world use 'double tap'....

p.s. sorry to anyone who might have posted something similar to this...i did not read all posts.
And I understand that at 7 meters people can be VERY fast. But we all must remember two things, 1. The officer or the guy with the gun doesn't have his feet tied up so that he couldn't move and 2. that as fast as someone may be with a sword, someone may be faster with a gun.

[This message has been edited by Raven (edited 08-18-2003).]

#111271 - 09/02/03 10:58 AM Re: Who would win up close
Syrio Offline

Registered: 09/02/03
Posts: 74
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ender:
But, in a real situation, how can you rush the guy with your knife BEFORE he has drawn the gun, if you are the defender (which i sincerely hope you are, if you are the aggressor, I hope you get shot for your attitude).

Your not going to rush somone, wielding a knife, BEFORE they draw the gun because theyll look as if their unarmed. If you do this, your a disgrace to the Martial Arts.

It just isnt a realistic situation. You wont pull out the knife until the gun is drawn, because untilt hat happens its still an unarmed battle.

Sometimes it's best to win the fight before it's started. Just because a person has not drawn their firearm does not mean they are not the agressor in word or attitude. As a martial artist (meaning you study war) and knowing a man had a gun and would likely pull it, would you wait for him to do so?

I have seen young men many times brag about their gun, wave it in the air, flash it, gesture to it, anything to increase their sense of power. I have never seen anyone quietly draw and fire, those people usually have cooler heads.

Discussing a robbery or mugging, the situation is much different as the gun-wielder almost certainly has gotten the drop on the other. The gun would be drawn.

#111272 - 10/21/03 11:08 PM Re: Who would win up close
Yojimbo558 Offline

Registered: 08/18/00
Posts: 253
Loc: Marina, Ca. USA
Hi there,

The answer to your question is easily obtained in a video for Police Officers entitled "Surviving Edged Weapons".

Each Officer interviewed in the video was one who'd almost been killed by an edged weapon.

The video wastes no expense in recreating what each Officer did wrong & after providing the effects to make it look like the cuts are actually happening shows actal cadavers where victims had died from various blade attacks.

In the video you will see that when the Officer insists on standing their ground...a knife wielding attacker can draw and close a distance of 21 feet before the Officer can get off two shots & still effect a leathal wound on the Officer.

Also of paramount importance is their illustration that if the Officer doesn't stand their ground but either deflects at close range or moves while responding they will have time to draw and gun down their assailant.

So in answer to your long as the Officer doesn't insist on going straight for the gun...they'll win...if they insist on going for the gun they are toast.

It's an awesome video & should definitely be apart of anyones collection.


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