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#111257 - 11/09/02 12:45 PM Who would win up close
Ronin47 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/05/02
Posts: 8
in close quarters, who do you think would win, a gunman, or a swordsman, povided that they were both given an equal chance.

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#111258 - 11/14/02 05:12 PM Re: Who would win up close
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
Define equal chance. Many studies have concluded that even an experienced user of a firearm will come off at best "evens" with a blade wielder, where the weapon must be drawn from a holstered position and the blade wielder is closer than approx 22ft / 7 meters (ish). A determined blade wielder (for want of a better word to describe those with knives, swords, broken bottles etc)can easily cover the aforementioned distance and strike in less than 1.5 seconds. If the aditional length of a sword such as a katana for example is factored in, the real distance to be covered before a fatal blow could be struck becomes even less. Another variable would be the type of firearm being used and the potential stopping power of the round that it it accepts. This is relevant in so far as many studies have highlighted the dubious stopping power of the 9mm round, particularly against persons under the influence of narcotics or meerly in the grip of adrenal dump. In theory therefore, should the firearm user draw and discharge a round before the blade wielder can engage him, there is no guarentee that the round will stop the blade wielder before he can respond with his own weapon. In all this is a highly contentious topic. I would suggest that at distances greater than 21 feet /7 meters, a firearms user (im taking this to be a pistol of some description here for the sake of arguement)has the upper hand IF he is experienced and can shoot accurately under pressure. At or below the aforementioned distance, it would be a brave man who put his money on the gun over the blade merely because it discharges lead. There is a recent article on this site on this topic which takes roundly the same view.
Regds

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#111259 - 11/14/02 08:06 PM Re: Who would win up close
Ronin47 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/05/02
Posts: 8
You're right I should've been a bit more specific. Let's say they're about 7meters away and the gunman has a pistol and the swordsman has a katana. The reason I brought this up is because a friend of mine who is a cop, says that he does a drill in which an assailant charges at a trainee/defender who must draw his sidearm to defend himself. Now my friend says that there a some cops that can cover very large distances, even before the person can get his gun out of the holster. You'd be surprised how fast the human body can move. Oh by the way, what is that article you mentioned?

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#111260 - 11/16/02 05:31 AM Re: Who would win up close
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
Id say, given the circumstances that you describe, that assuming the firearm is holstered at the time of initial contact, the guy with the sword is likely to win. A very experienced pistol exponent with a good draw speed and a weapon with some good stopping power might edge him out but it will be very tight IMO. The article i refer to is the lastest on this site on the front (home) page under "lastest articles" it is
"The Reality Of Edged Weapon Attacks
By Lloyd De Jongh". If you go to the Self Defence forum and the General forum I have also posted other discussions on this issue.
Regds

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#111261 - 01/18/03 01:44 AM Re: Who would win up close
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
I kind of have a theory that fine motor skills degrade under stress situations, and that drawing, aiming, and firing a gun is much more "fine" than stabbing or cutting. I think this also accounts for the tendency of flashy moves to degrade to zero usefullness under combat. Comments?

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#111262 - 03/21/03 12:19 PM Re: Who would win up close
Ashton Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/03
Posts: 54
Loc: Nope
Having had knives drawn on me and a few occasions were I was charged by a guy/girl wielding a knife and a sword is just as deadly especially with the longer reach, even worse if wielded by a trained person, I would say contact the funeral director for gun boy. Even if the gun guy, cop, armed citizen, whatever, managed to draw and hit the edged weapon guy, what are the chances of instant and complete incapacitation by hitting the central nervous sytem with a shot ? Especially with the loss of fine motor skills(required to draw and then shoot accurately)like someone wrote in about ? Nill! Something fired up the edged weapon guy..drugs, drinking, he's a nut, love affair gone bad, combo of all of the above, he is not gonna go down with a harsh word and a threat [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] The guy with the gun is screwed and is gonna be crapping (and bleeding)in his pants, I know I would be, honestly, and I wonder if, that's right if he could even draw it and get it fired before being cut. The only saving grace is: DISTANCE, it's everything. (and that's for anyone, civilian or lawguy). Put some room, some space, a little ground between them and maybe some cover and knife boy is toast. Now, you can move around and pick your shot and if you hit him non-fatally, you can move and shoot again...and again, safely. Been there. Also, it helps to have some thing more then a pistol, (again in an ideal situation), a 12 gauge would be perfect. Cops, and "enlightened armed civilians", our dojo has a lot of folks who just want to protect themselves and guns are the next step up the self defense ladder, the katana of the 2000's, practice all these scenarios, which is cool, you have to be prepared for anything, but edged weapons send a chill down my spine. Seen a lot more people stabbed or slashed that shot. Not to cause a problem or a flame war, but any cop that tells you different is lying. I question the usefullness of 90% of the knife defenses that are taught today in the dojo. I know I used to believe in them, but I will tell you from experience, with scars from being stitched, you will get cut, how badly depends on how you handle it and your will to survive. Knifes ain't no joke. Peace.

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#111263 - 06/16/03 08:13 PM Re: Who would win up close
Ender Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/29/03
Posts: 2253
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
But say it is you who are the swordsman. You are 7 meters away, and you charge a gun man (for some various reason, Im sure its a good one)...Say he does shoot you. Although it may not kill you right away, getting shot is getting shot, even if you do manage to decapitate the man. The fact remains that YOU STILL GOT SHOT. This must be factored in.

The question you must ask yourself is not whether or not you think you can do it, but whether or not your prepared to die trying.

Anyone here feel confident to rush an armed assailant? I'm not, but thats only because I am not trained in the sword arts yet, though hopefully soon I'll begin that.

As for dying in the attempt, some circumstances, in my opinion, permit this. The only one that comes to mind is protection of a loved one, where if the gunman lives he will hurt or kill somone I hold dear. Then I would have no quandry killing him along with myself. So long as he's dead, the person I care about is okay, and thus an acceptable risk.

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#111264 - 06/17/03 11:02 AM Re: Who would win up close
Ender Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/29/03
Posts: 2253
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Oh and btw, I never said a knife is harder to use than a gun, what I DID say is that to use a SWORD properly, it requires more dedication, especially to be able, as you guys put it, close distance/draw/attack/kill in a matter of seconds.

Give the average person a sword, their gonna do some wild slashes. Pit them up against a gun man whos 7 metres away? They will run piss scared for their lives.

And also, if your in a defense situation where a gunman is 7 meters away, how do you know hes an attacker? Has he already drawn the gun. If so, your chances of closing the distance and attacking before he can shoot the crap out of you is slim to NIL. If he is just taunting you, is it worth it to begin to close distance and swing a katana at him? I don't think so. Is he showing you the gun, spouting off how he's gonna kill you? If the gun is in site, he can pull it in time to shoot you, and therefore you WONT win this conflict should you rush.

The situation described is VERY unlikely. If somone with a gun is mugging you, I say give him the damn wallet! Money isnt worth risking your life over. If hes openly attacking you, that means the gun is out and ready to fire, and you may little to no chance of rushing him witha sword.

Pick a more realistic hypothetical situation.

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#111265 - 06/17/03 11:52 PM Re: Who would win up close
Anonymous
Unregistered


FBI did study-knife wielder "won",meaning he was able to reach gun wielder and cut him every time at a distance of 21 ft.(gun was holstered)
Remember-you are far more likely to die from a knife/sword wound than a gunshot wound, shock also sets in faster do to greater blood loss.

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#111266 - 06/18/03 09:02 AM Re: Who would win up close
Ender Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/29/03
Posts: 2253
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
But, in a real situation, how can you rush the guy with your knife BEFORE he has drawn the gun, if you are the defender (which i sincerely hope you are, if you are the aggressor, I hope you get shot for your attitude).

Your not going to rush somone, wielding a knife, BEFORE they draw the gun because theyll look as if their unarmed. If you do this, your a disgrace to the Martial Arts.

It just isnt a realistic situation. You wont pull out the knife until the gun is drawn, because untilt hat happens its still an unarmed battle.

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#111267 - 07/24/03 09:35 AM Re: Who would win up close
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Some years ago, I had occasion to attend a four day training seminar given by a fella by the name of Jim Crews, who I understand was the former provost of the Gunsite training facility under Jeff Cooper (Nice guy, great training, specially if you consider that the guy is a road show and his training props of necessity is stuff that he has to be able to break down and stow in his SUV and a small trailer he lugs around).
Anyhoo, one of the drills consisted of a silhoutte target mounted on a cart. It was "powered" by another of the guys, pulling on a long rope attached to the cart. The object of the drill was for the trainee to stand 21 ft. away from the cart and facing it, weapon holstered and on "safe". The rope was long enough that the fellow "powering" the cart stood at least a further 10 ft. away to the rear of the trainee, who couldn't see him, as the runner was to his back. Crews would also be standing to the rear of the shooter, far enough to remain unseen, but close enough to grab and control the shooter if safety became an issue. At a signal from Crews, the runner would take off at his stop speed, with no warning to the shooter, thereby pulling the cart/ silhoutte towards the shooter. This was meant to simulate a surprise charge from a knife wielding assailant, 21 ft. away. The shooter was expected to stand his ground, shout "Halt" or "Stop", draw his weapon and put a controlled double tap into the silhouette's center of mass and, if possible, transition to a final head shot. What an eye- opener!!! As this was an intermediate course, all participants had at least some experience. Some shooters became so stressed by the charging target that they got hung up on their draw and the gun never cleared the holster. Others only managed one shot, many missing or scoring only when the target was almost upon them. Only one guy, on his second try, managed two center mass/ transition/ head shots, but only by removing his jacket, so that his draw wouldn't be encumbered by having to clear it.
When it was my turn, I managed to complete the drill both times and get the two center mass shots, but the target was close to, or within, arms length by the second shot. Also, to this day I can't be sure if I managed a flash front sight picture or merely managed to point shoot, it was so fast. In spite of KNOWING that it was an inanimate target and not a knife wielding psycho, I finished both drills shaking like a leaf from the adrenaline dump. After the drill, Crews told us the object of it was to prove the near impossibility of defeating a charging assailant holding a knife, from 21 ft. or less, from the draw, and to give us an idea of the stress levels involved. In his advanced handgun training he did the same drill, this time teaching the shooter to move back in the oblique (Away from the direct line of the charge) while engaging the target.
The guy who managed the center mass/ head shot combo was a member of my former shooting club ("The Choirboys" in Miami, Fl. Great bunch, I miss 'em!!). He liked the drill so much that he got Crews' permission to copy his cart thingy, built one and introduced it on one of our next regular shoots. Since these guys were all experienced enthusiasts, they refused to just stand still for the charge (These wily old foxes knew better!!!). So when it was done, ALL engaged while retreating in the oblique. Although all these guys succeeded in getting off the center mass double tap while the opponent was kept out of reach, ALL also had to grudgingly admit that it hadn't been a walk in the park!!! It's good that they admitted it up front, 'cause if they hadn't I'd've been scared into thinking there was a Malaria outbreak in the group, there were so many "shakers" in the bunch!!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
BTW, "the shakes" always made an appearance whenever we did this drill. I don't think anyone ever got over 'em. I know I sure as hell didn't!!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 07-24-2003).]

[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 07-24-2003).]

[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 07-24-2003).]

[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 07-24-2003).]

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#111268 - 08/02/03 09:16 AM Re: Who would win up close
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
in a related vein, how useful are soft vest against blades? And why do cops have their necks exposed? I'd think some kind of "leatherneck" for beat cops would be nice. It could look like a turtleneck, but be made of woven steel or something. Come to think of it, I'm going down to the workshop now...

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#111269 - 08/18/03 03:37 PM Re: Who would win up close
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
we use anti stab vests at work, I believe they are Kevlar or similar tight woven material. They showed us one that had been through some ballistics tests. The vest managed to stop a .22 .38 and significantly slowed a .44 round. I'm unsure at what distance this was, but I would say that the vests are VERY useful, if not somewhat cumbersome. As for not protecting the neck, I guess the theory is that the torso would be a primary target, which certainly holds true for a stabbing action, but not necassarily a slashing action.

Budo.

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#111270 - 08/18/03 08:50 PM Re: Who would win up close
Raven Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/13/03
Posts: 549
Loc: Sin City
well...all I know is that at 7 meters anybody with a small bit of hand eye coordination can pull out the gun and shoot, so let's say its a 9mm handgun, most of the handguns launch the bullet anywhere from like 1300 to 1500 feet per second, thats more than enough speed then need to kill a man, and who ever said the guy with the gun has only ONE bullet, whats wrong with shooting more than once? Officers in America and special operations around the world use 'double tap'....

p.s. sorry to anyone who might have posted something similar to this...i did not read all posts.
And I understand that at 7 meters people can be VERY fast. But we all must remember two things, 1. The officer or the guy with the gun doesn't have his feet tied up so that he couldn't move and 2. that as fast as someone may be with a sword, someone may be faster with a gun.

[This message has been edited by Raven (edited 08-18-2003).]

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#111271 - 09/02/03 10:58 AM Re: Who would win up close
Syrio Offline
Member

Registered: 09/02/03
Posts: 74
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ender:
But, in a real situation, how can you rush the guy with your knife BEFORE he has drawn the gun, if you are the defender (which i sincerely hope you are, if you are the aggressor, I hope you get shot for your attitude).

Your not going to rush somone, wielding a knife, BEFORE they draw the gun because theyll look as if their unarmed. If you do this, your a disgrace to the Martial Arts.

It just isnt a realistic situation. You wont pull out the knife until the gun is drawn, because untilt hat happens its still an unarmed battle.
[/QUOTE]

Sometimes it's best to win the fight before it's started. Just because a person has not drawn their firearm does not mean they are not the agressor in word or attitude. As a martial artist (meaning you study war) and knowing a man had a gun and would likely pull it, would you wait for him to do so?

I have seen young men many times brag about their gun, wave it in the air, flash it, gesture to it, anything to increase their sense of power. I have never seen anyone quietly draw and fire, those people usually have cooler heads.

Discussing a robbery or mugging, the situation is much different as the gun-wielder almost certainly has gotten the drop on the other. The gun would be drawn.

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#111272 - 10/21/03 11:08 PM Re: Who would win up close
Yojimbo558 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/00
Posts: 253
Loc: Marina, Ca. USA
Hi there,

The answer to your question is easily obtained in a video for Police Officers entitled "Surviving Edged Weapons".

Each Officer interviewed in the video was one who'd almost been killed by an edged weapon.

The video wastes no expense in recreating what each Officer did wrong & after providing the effects to make it look like the cuts are actually happening shows actal cadavers where victims had died from various blade attacks.

In the video you will see that when the Officer insists on standing their ground...a knife wielding attacker can draw and close a distance of 21 feet before the Officer can get off two shots & still effect a leathal wound on the Officer.

Also of paramount importance is their illustration that if the Officer doesn't stand their ground but either deflects at close range or moves while responding they will have time to draw and gun down their assailant.

So in answer to your query...as long as the Officer doesn't insist on going straight for the gun...they'll win...if they insist on going for the gun they are toast.

It's an awesome video & should definitely be apart of anyones collection.

Eric

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