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#110386 - 11/30/04 01:38 PM Re: pepper spray failures

Yes mate it was a horrorshow. As I work in the UK none of us were armed, however with the British police now being dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century some of us will now be trained on the TASER. I'm hoping that this will "cure" the problems we faced that day. We shall see.

#110387 - 11/30/04 04:49 PM Re: pepper spray failures
kman Offline

Registered: 05/15/03
Posts: 368
Loc: minnesota
Gotta luve those tasers. I did taser traing about a yr ago. I can attest that it works, and it's sooooo painful. If a cop approached me with taser in hand you can bet that I would do WHATEVER they told me to.
Fletch,,When I worked in phoenix some years ago they had just the sort of tragedy that you allude to. Good samaritin hospital, located in a marginal neighborhood, had unarmed security consisting mostly of retirees that did litttle real security work, Mostly they just managed keys to places that employees didnt want to, and the occaisonal escort of a female to her car. One night an elderly guard approached a group of indians in the lot passing a bottle around. In short order he was stomped to within an inch of his life and as of my last knowledge of him he remained brain damaged with little hope of recovery. Samaritan imediatley hired a larger and younger security force and armed them with handguns and pepper spray. ( I helped to train them out at Ben Avery range), at some of their suburban locations they experimented with officers equiped with pepper and batons and a fully trained K-9 on site. Took a little getting used to seeing an officer making rounds through the hospital accompanied by a 110 lb german sheppard. (alsation to you brits). All of which is good security measures but does nothing to rectify the injury to the poor old guy that got stomped. K-

#110388 - 01/13/05 11:47 AM Re: pepper spray failures


I am not a LEO, but I would like to ask a question - for home security, since I would rather not have a firearm in my house, I keep 2 large CS gas canisters. one upstairs, one downstairs. My basic idea is that in the event of a serious home invasion to flood the house with gas and get myself and my family out ASAP. I have no intention of trying to hold on to the bad guys, and I don't care what they do with my house, as long as my family is safe. I have no intention of using this unless I understand that there is danger, and I am more than willing to accept the various property damage involved (it will be a hell of a lot better than fixing holes in dry wall and replacing bloody carpets).

what do you think of the concept?

#110389 - 01/13/05 04:33 PM Re: pepper spray failures
kman Offline

Registered: 05/15/03
Posts: 368
Loc: minnesota
Globetrotter,,it's a fairly unique and radical strategy. (IMHO). I don't what the delivery method or quantities are, but CS is a fairly indiscriminate weapon. I'm wondering what exposure you and your family are risking. That needs to be balanced against what effects it will have on the bad guys. If they run,,all's well and good. If they fight through the pain,,,you could be in big trouble. CS is a crystal,,and will hang around for a while. Your house is likely to be uninhabitable for quite a while while youre getting things cleaned up. Any young children or anyone at all with respiratory ailments in the household? quite possibly lethal effects on them depending on amount of exposure and other variables.
I respect your ethic regarding firearms. I would chose a weapon that can be aimed, and is portable. (what if the bad guys flee the house and your together outside and unarmed?)
pepper spray or a taser are good choices. If you have the space and the money a safe room might be a good idea as well. K-

#110390 - 01/14/05 06:18 AM Re: pepper spray failures


I'll tell you what my thinking is.

1. I am not opposed to firearms in general, I have a child and I won't have a firearm in the house that isn't well locked up. I don't think that it is totally practical to expect to unlock a safe at 3 am in a matter of seconds, under duress, and so I am not confident in trusting a firearm for home security, even though I feel it would be the best option. Also, I live in an old house in the middle of a village, and I would be concerned about the safty of getting into a gunfight in my house, who else might get hurt. I actually spent quiet a bit of time in the "firearm business" - I was a light infantry man for several years and a bodyguard and security officer for several years (both in Israel).

2. I see 3 main possiblities for a home invasion (by the way, I live in a town that has had 2 homicides in 20 years - one when a bank robber made the wrong exit off the highway, and one when an urban gang member came to visit a girl and shot the girls boyfriend): looking for quick cash - in this case I honestly believe that my shouting and stomping and waving around a batton (the second element of my home security system) will get rid of them.
b. profesionals who break into peoples houses in the middle of the night for a living - in this case I am just waking up, groggy, and they are pumped with adrenaline, and wide awake. If they are armed, I don't realy want to get into a gunfight with them, I want them to want to get out ASAP. if they aren't armed, I still don't want to see them, I want them to want to get out ASAP. I believe that the gas will make it unhospitable enough for them.
c. somebody who has either specifically decided to kill my family, or is drugged up enough to be virtually unstopable. in this case I am screwed in pretty much any case, although having a firearm might be the only real answer for this. I consider it hugely unlikely, though.

3. I have experienced the effects of CS gas, and I really can't imagine anybody fighting through a cloud of gas. that may be a lack of experience with really crazy people, but a closed room full of good quality gas is very very difficult to stay in, espectially when it hits you unaware and espectially when you are breathing hard.

4. a taser, for me, has the same limitations on a firearm - it can be lethal to small children, it needs to be aimed, and even worse, it only has a very limited number of rounds. for me, this seems like a bad solution - it still needs to be locked up, but it isn't as "good" as a firearm, with the exception that you don't need to worry about firing through a wall.

5. I recognize the potential material damage of gas, but the potential damage of a few rounds of birdshot through drywall and 5 liters or so of blood on the carpet strike me as worse.

6. I think that the main advantages that I see are that nobody has to get killed and that I don't need to be in direct line of sight with the bad guys. I just have to make a cloud and get my family out.

but, I am very intersted in any holes in the plan - if anybody sees any fundemental problems with it.

#110391 - 01/15/05 11:00 PM Re: pepper spray failures
kman Offline

Registered: 05/15/03
Posts: 368
Loc: minnesota
They make a pistol sized lock box with a touch pad that's shaped like a spread 5 fingers for exactly the purpose you describe.
Magsafe makes a frangible pistol load that will break up on impact. it'll make spaghetti out of tissue at close range but wont go through a wall.
There's well established case law here in the states regarding weapons that are nonselective. A few home owners have been prosecuted and successfully sued by criminals after using guns rigged with trip wires. The indiscriminate nature of the device was the deciding factor. How is your CS controlled? If a burglar is blinded and confused in your gassed house,,goes down in a corner and dies, you're going to face manslaughter charges as well as civil liability. K-

#110392 - 01/24/05 02:01 AM Re: pepper spray failures

And they are recommending it to nervous women?

#110393 - 03/08/05 01:20 AM Re: pepper spray failures
otobeawanker Offline

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 192
I've been sprayed with a large amount in the face. I didn't even realize I got sprayed till after the situation was over and my adrenalene wore off. At that point I felt the burn pretty good. Heh heh, a cool wet rag on the face does wonders. But its much like football, you play through the pain. Your too busy fighting/playing to feel, kind of thing I guess. I've always kind of been like that don't feel the pain for a few hours after. Sometime you don't even feel it till the next day. I've played entire football games with broken fingers and not noticed until a few hours after the game.

#110394 - 03/18/05 05:54 AM Re: pepper spray failures
mark Offline
sword of magnamity

Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 1284
Loc: uk
I've been sprayed with a large amount in the face

Im sure you have, but please dont bother us with details from your lude personal life.....

#110395 - 03/18/05 12:20 PM Re: pepper spray failures

OC is best used when applied prior to a violent encounter. If a bad guy is motivated or "goal oriented" the effects are much less reliable. This is a problem we face in my town. The cops take some guy down and fight with him for a minute or so. Sometime in there, someone sprays the guy and then complains later that it hadf no effect when he was on the ground kicking and punching.

Duh! Might have worked better had he gotten a blast prior to going hands on.

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