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#110366 - 09/08/04 06:15 AM pepper spray failures
kman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/03
Posts: 368
Loc: minnesota
I've been working an assignment in a ghetto hi rise. It's one man patrol until something develops. In the last month Ive used 2 1/2 cans of pepper spray, drawn my baton 5 times and used it on three occaisons. Drawn my pistol responding to shots fired and held one at gunpoint. I'm becoming a one man statistical trend!
I think I was spoiled way back when I first used pepper spray. the first people I sprayed just crumpled. Lately I've had my eyes opened. Ive had one guy take a faceful of pepper foam (wearing glasses) who was able to turn and run. I caught up to him and gave him some more, at which time he went over backward but was able to take a kick at me while he was on his back. One semi good ASP stroke on his leg convinced him to roll over and put his hands behind his back. Another gentleman resisting arrest took a facefull of foam which only closed one of his eyes. After I peeled his lady friend off my back I gave him another squirt which brought him to his knees where I was able to cuff him. Now for the hairy one. One on one with a pretty good sized guy, LARGE upper body, coked to the eyeballs and ready to fight or run. (I'm pushing 50 so I dont like to run after the young guys anymore.) A good burst of MK-3 caused him to close both eyes and turn his head, at which time I step in and give him a good swift kick in the crotch.(not an academy approved technique) Oops, his head snaps around and here he comes, both eyes open looking straight at me. I back pedal, give him another squirt in the face and for good measure an ASP shot on his left thigh.(exactly like they taught it) This time he comes swinging, I'm shuffling backwards and spraying, he's got both eyes open looking straight into the stream of pepper like it's not there. He pauses, so I skip in and give him another ASP stroke, this one coming from way back. (kinda felt like hitting a long drive.) So now he eyeballs me for a second, then takes off running like a shot! I was standing there all alone when the troops arrived, wondering what in the hell my "intermediate force" weapons were good for? If he had attempted to close again I would probably have swung for his head. (bad ju ju) or had to wrestle with a pepper slimed cokehead and risk losing my gun.
Another guy was able to keep turning his head while we grappled so he never really got a good dose. The can ran empty in the middle of this. I held on to it while I gave him 3 tetsui type fist hammers high on his spine and neck. Another myth exploded,,a chemical agent can does NOT make a good fist maul! Those blows felt kind of funny but did take him to his knees momentarily. I pitched the empty pepper can over my shoulder, got him turned and into a rear naked choke, which was hard to maintain because he was so slimy with the pepper foam. I never got it sunk in to where it was effective and he was able squirm around a lot.(greased goblin effect?) Some other folks were looking ready to join in, so I got the ASP out and clobbered him on the upper arm, shoulder and high part of his back as he turned away. He went back down and just kind of sat there while I cuffed him to the push bar on a door.I held his other arm in an armbar so he couldn't hand his crack baggie off in the crowd until backup arrived.
In the future (which is now) I'm going to be a whole lot less inclined to use pepper spray. It may or may not work and it turns me into a one handed fighter until I do something with the can.(try getting it back in the holster while you're grappling) Sorry if this is kind of long, just wanted to share things with you all and get your feedback. K-

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#110367 - 09/08/04 09:29 PM Re: pepper spray failures
Anonymous
Unregistered


Keep in mind that timing is everything with OC. If the guy is goal oriented, the OC will not likey derail his focus. If he is gonna run, fight or drive away, he 'll do it with a face full of pepper even if he can't see.

I taught an OC class today. We are using less and less of it with the arrival of the M26 & X26 Taser.

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#110368 - 09/12/04 04:50 PM Re: pepper spray failures
kman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/03
Posts: 368
Loc: minnesota
Gotta luv that taser. Wish I had one. K-

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#110369 - 09/13/04 02:02 AM Re: pepper spray failures
Doughnut Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 197
Loc: Mid-west, U.S.A
kman-
1247 ST. Anthony perhaps?

I know you like MK and bodyguard but I still swear by ol' freeze + P. The blend spray just works better on the chemicaly impared and just pepper.

Stay Safe train hard
Doughnut

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#110370 - 09/13/04 11:26 AM Re: pepper spray failures
kman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/03
Posts: 368
Loc: minnesota
Doughnut, close, but no cigar. Similar demographics. The thing I don't like about freeze+p is the CS fumes. In an enclosed space thry're obnoxious, and forget about grappling with a guy that's been sprayed with that stuff!. K-

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#110371 - 09/18/04 04:51 PM Re: pepper spray failures
Doughnut Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 197
Loc: Mid-west, U.S.A
aggreed that the fumes are strong, but that is one of the reasons it works so well, the GAS does alot of work.

At any rate I assume that although you are dissillusioned with back up in a can you will continue to employ it.

If that is the case may I sugest the following. Wear gloves and a nylon raid style jacket to minamize contact with spray on offender you have doused, and bring an extra uniform to work to help tidy up and make the rest of the shift more bearable.

I am sure these ideas have occured to an old hand like you so for what its worth...

Oh yes, and have a mexecan resturaunt delivery number handy. Once the spray gets in the ventilation you may want to have an excuse such as "they use real hot sauce on these babies! cant you just smee the heat from here? I am sure it would work... Pepper always makes ME hungrey.
Doughnut

PS Seward towers in MPLS?

[This message has been edited by Doughnut (edited 09-18-2004).]

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#110372 - 11/09/04 01:50 AM Re: pepper spray failures
Big Bear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/15/03
Posts: 1068
Loc: Northern Ireland
CS gas/spray.

For the record i am not trained in using it yet, but i will be in a few months. I dunno if that is a good or bad thing.

Sorry its sounds so cynical men, but its not that i do not thikg the CS is a good tool, it's just when it is used where i am we get investigated straight away!!!!

The strange thing is that we are instructed to use it B4 we use our batons. So instead of using our batons we are to use something that opens up an investigation straight away!!?? And what usually happens, when it is used, the person that you spray with it, tries to tell the investigating authorities that they were giving 1st aid when they ot sprayed!!

I'm actually getting more and more annoyed the more i write here so i am going to have to go.

Keep safe

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#110373 - 11/11/04 01:12 AM Re: pepper spray failures
Anonymous
Unregistered


Look donít give up hope. Iím an (OCAT) instructor and I can tell you, that what must of you use is pretty good, as far as Bodyguard, Freeze + P, Sabre Law enforcement unit, First Defense and I could go on for days. One thing I donít recommend is name brand Mace, it is crap and is not a good product. If you havenít tried Punch II Streamer you should, that is a good product made by Areko International the same company that makes Freeze + P. I recommend FOX 5.3shu but only 2% O.C., Great product because it is hell on wheels and is made just for a fast attack style so that it will come on very strong and powerful at first and the effects last for only 20 min. They made the product like that so it stops a person dead in their tracks and lets you do your thing and in about 20 minutes the suspect will come back around. It can do that because the O.C. count is so low.

I also would recommend that you use a cone or a fog type spray, instead of foam. Donít get me wrong I use foam to depending on who and what my current duties are. But a fog or cone brings on more power in the small general area that you trying to control. Also if your not (OCAT) trained and have never used the spray on your self, I would say take a class if your area offers it. But remember that if someone is all pumped up on drugs most O.C.ís will not work, then it is time for them to meet your other friend Mr. ASP Baton or PR-24 depending on what you use. Well good luck and be careful.

Also if you really want to stop someone and I promise it will, try to pick up a can of (M-G-5) made by Areko International. If that doesnít work I would like to see this place you work at and what kind of people you deal with. One last thing if you do find the product I listed above and have to use it make sure you run like hell once you deploy it, the come back in about 20 minutes and see who is still standing. The new Tazer guns are good too I got my new one a week ago and love it. But just try to find what I listed above I promise it will work and you wont have to worry about holding the can and fighting

[This message has been edited by ocman (edited 11-11-2004).]

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#110374 - 11/11/04 08:06 AM Re: pepper spray failures
kman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/03
Posts: 368
Loc: minnesota
Bear, Most folks recover from a dose of OC in 20 min to an hour with no observable after effects. A baton strike can create an injury such as a contusion or a fracture. Easily documented by ER staff or an attorney. It only follows that the baton would be further along the force continum. Most places OC is considered a pain compliance tool, but safer than arm locks due to not causing sprains. K-

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#110375 - 11/11/04 08:45 AM Re: pepper spray failures
Big Bear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/15/03
Posts: 1068
Loc: Northern Ireland
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kman:
Bear, Most folks recover from a dose of OC in 20 min to an hour with no observable after effects. A baton strike can create an injury such as a contusion or a fracture. Easily documented by ER staff or an attorney. It only follows that the baton would be further along the force continum. Most places OC is considered a pain compliance tool, but safer than arm locks due to not causing sprains. K-[/QUOTE]

Kman,

i appreciate that pal and am well aware of that the baton causes more damage. The only thing is that over here there are certain elenments in government (i'm not gettin too deep into it as its not a political debate) that are arguing against the use of the Spray!? i don't understand it as i know it has less lasting affects, and it causes less damage but some supposedly highly intelligent folk think it would be wiser to get hit with a baton!!!

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#110376 - 11/11/04 02:44 PM Re: pepper spray failures
Anonymous
Unregistered


Kman
Does your pepper spray have a residual effect on the user? I am an LEO in the UK and a defensive skills instructor for other officers. We use cs spray. I have found that once the spray is deployed anyone within the general area will be effected to some degree. As you can imagine this isn't good if you are trying to fight/subdue a person suffering the effect of the spray yourself. I would think that any incapacitant spray that only affects the recipient is better than what we have. Your thoughts or anyone elses.
Many Thanks
Lea

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#110377 - 11/13/04 03:09 AM Re: pepper spray failures
Anonymous
Unregistered


Lea,

The most popular OC products these days use the Stream or Foam Technologies. That is the pepper particles once proppelled are delivered by a liuquid "carrier". This cuts down on the cross contamination effect by giving "weight" and an "adhesive" quality to the pepper. There is still some "blowback" but it has been greatly reduced from the old days of the pepper going everywhere.

CS is fine powder and thus cannot be delivered the same way without turning it into paste.

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#110378 - 11/13/04 11:07 PM Re: pepper spray failures
kman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/03
Posts: 368
Loc: minnesota
Bear, I really can't think of a rational reason why your local government would prefer batons to OC. But then again it's government and doesn't have to be rational. Maybe some deep seated objection to chemical agents? The U.S. army has kind of got this way. We used to use CS in training all the time. Now it's tightly controlled as a chemical munition. It's hard to get issued and recieve clearance for use. Subject to many of the same classifications as a nerve agent would be, simply because it's a "chemical"
Lea, I wouldnt describe it a a residual effect, but it definetly has some. I typically feel a little burn in my eyes and exposed skin when I spray someone as well as a little airway constrction. That's one of the reasons we get sprayed during training. So we can handle the effects and stay mission oriented. Pepper definetley does not release noxious fumes as CS does. Just a small amount gets areosolized as it's sprayed. K-

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#110379 - 11/15/04 03:22 PM Re: pepper spray failures
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks for the replies guys. Do you find that alcohol or drugs has a bearing on the effectivness of your chosen spray? My last encounter when using spray was in a very confined space with a 17 year old boy who had mental health problems as well as being drunk and tripping on speed. A great combination!!
He was also armed with a screwdriver which he managed to hit me in the head with. Luckily for me I was wearing my riot helmet at the time.
He was sprayed, hit with a baton, hit with unarmed stikes and had to be physically tied at the ankles with his own shoelaces before we had him under control. There were 7 of us. The only effect that the spray had was to render 2 of the officers totally incapable of trying to restrain this boy as they had to be dragged away and 2 fresh officers brought in. This was in a resturant toilet which got demolished in the process and it was fair to say that we lost our police discount there from then on!!!!
I have never seen anyone take as much punishment as this boy as he seemed totally oblivious to the spray or the strikes.
Your thoughts.

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#110380 - 11/15/04 04:53 PM Re: pepper spray failures
Anonymous
Unregistered


Lea people with mental health issues usually are very strong and they donít know their own power, plus with the drugs it is no help. Iím an (OCAT) instructor and going threw their training really gives you the true scoop on how people will respond to O.C. spray. It is not always going to work but some products are better than others but a very good O.C. product is Fox: Five Point Three SHU. Hope this help.

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#110381 - 11/25/04 09:00 PM Re: pepper spray failures
Anonymous
Unregistered


there was a guy on crystal meth and cocain he got in a fight in an alley kicked the guys butt then the adreneline and drugs kicked in to 7 officers with clubs just to get cuffs on pepper spray just doesnt work somtime. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG]

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#110382 - 11/27/04 01:16 AM Re: pepper spray failures
Anonymous
Unregistered


Whatís really bad about the Use of Force policy from state to state is the aspect of the amount of force that can be applied and when.

Drugs and Mentally Ill people, O.C. just wonít do the trick all the time. These people have a very high tolerance for pain and Mentally Ill people sometimes donít even understand what is going on.

There is a company I know of a Security company called (TSI) Total Safety Inc. here in Vegas. Their use of force policy within the company really shocks me.

They are armed officers but are not allowed to carry any O.C. or an ASP or PR-24. This company places it officers at very high priced gated comminutes to protect the residents that live there. I know a couple of the officers that work at a location in town and there policy even gets worse as I read there policy and procedure manual.

These officers are not allowed to engage an any hand to hand combat with a resident or a burglar even if theyíre being attacked, they are to just drive away. If the situation gets to the point of the officer being beat really bad they state in there P&P manual that they have the right to shoot.

That really pushes Nevada Laws to the extreme, which are these:

Use of Force Policy For the state of Nevada:

1. Command Presence
2. Verbal Communicate
3. Escort
4. Joint Manipulation and or Cuffing
5. O.C. Spray
6. ASP Baton / PR-24
7. Deadly Force

This to me was the weirdest thing I have ever read. Theyíre only are allowed to use numbers 1,2 and then seven. That is a huge lawsuit and is not even with what the law states. If one of their officers were to use deadly force he would be in prison for along time. And some of the officers in the company are certified ASP Instructors and OCAT instructors. That company should use itís officers resources like these officers that can certify people and add what the law says you have to do, instead of just commanding presence, talking to a suspect and then if need be shoot the person. What a very weird company.

From ocmanÖÖ.



[This message has been edited by ocman (edited 11-27-2004).]

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#110383 - 11/28/04 09:35 PM Re: pepper spray failures
kman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/03
Posts: 368
Loc: minnesota
Lea,,,What an effing horrorshow!! Definetly one that you will tell stories about for a long time. He's lucky that he didnt get shot.The alcohol and speed certainly played a big part. As in the coked up guy that I sprayed and batoned with little observable effect.
OCman,,the policies you're describing are a classic example of liabilty driven thinking. The employer gets a big break on his insurance at the expense of officer saftey. There's a similar company in my town. It's all about undercutting the competion's rates. Once an incident occurs they can replace the officer that will either get fired for not following company policy to the letter, or quits when he see's the light.
K-

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#110384 - 11/28/04 09:59 PM Re: pepper spray failures
Anonymous
Unregistered


Kman: the policies you're describing are a classic example of liability driven thinking. The employer gets a big break on his insurance at the expense of officer safety

You couldnít be more right. I talked with one of the officers last night on the phone and we where just shooting the stuff and he told me that he had a (HOA) Home Owners Association meeting the night before about future security work on this property his on. Make a long story short he said the if the home owners where to pay $5.00 more a month for their HOA feeís that officers could carry O.C. and ASP/PR-24 batons. He said the homeowners that where there stated that they where more scared of Pepper Spray and Batons than the site of a gun.

It is just a cheap way for the companyís liability to stay low with insurance. That to me is just down right horrific, to put the safety of an officer at the mercy of the law is not the way to run a company. I mean that an officer might not perform he duties to the best of his/hers ability because they are afraid of a lawsuit or getting hurt. Down right sad.

OCman

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#110385 - 11/29/04 09:41 AM Re: pepper spray failures
Anonymous
Unregistered


Unfortunately, it often takes a tragedy to change public opinion. These Security guys will pay the price either way.

Property owners employ Security for various reasons though. Some more for the image of "Security" than anything. I have seen companies that tell their people not to intervene at all, just drive away and call the cops.

Right, wrong or indifferent, these companies make their own decisions on what they value and what they are willing to risk. Hiring another guard is cheap compared to fighting litigation or paying medical expenses.

[This message has been edited by Fletch1 (edited 11-29-2004).]

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#110386 - 11/30/04 01:38 PM Re: pepper spray failures
Anonymous
Unregistered


Kman
Yes mate it was a horrorshow. As I work in the UK none of us were armed, however with the British police now being dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century some of us will now be trained on the TASER. I'm hoping that this will "cure" the problems we faced that day. We shall see.
Regards
Lea

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#110387 - 11/30/04 04:49 PM Re: pepper spray failures
kman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/03
Posts: 368
Loc: minnesota
Gotta luve those tasers. I did taser traing about a yr ago. I can attest that it works, and it's sooooo painful. If a cop approached me with taser in hand you can bet that I would do WHATEVER they told me to.
Fletch,,When I worked in phoenix some years ago they had just the sort of tragedy that you allude to. Good samaritin hospital, located in a marginal neighborhood, had unarmed security consisting mostly of retirees that did litttle real security work, Mostly they just managed keys to places that employees didnt want to, and the occaisonal escort of a female to her car. One night an elderly guard approached a group of indians in the lot passing a bottle around. In short order he was stomped to within an inch of his life and as of my last knowledge of him he remained brain damaged with little hope of recovery. Samaritan imediatley hired a larger and younger security force and armed them with handguns and pepper spray. ( I helped to train them out at Ben Avery range), at some of their suburban locations they experimented with officers equiped with pepper and batons and a fully trained K-9 on site. Took a little getting used to seeing an officer making rounds through the hospital accompanied by a 110 lb german sheppard. (alsation to you brits). All of which is good security measures but does nothing to rectify the injury to the poor old guy that got stomped. K-

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#110388 - 01/13/05 11:47 AM Re: pepper spray failures
Anonymous
Unregistered


gentlemen,

I am not a LEO, but I would like to ask a question - for home security, since I would rather not have a firearm in my house, I keep 2 large CS gas canisters. one upstairs, one downstairs. My basic idea is that in the event of a serious home invasion to flood the house with gas and get myself and my family out ASAP. I have no intention of trying to hold on to the bad guys, and I don't care what they do with my house, as long as my family is safe. I have no intention of using this unless I understand that there is danger, and I am more than willing to accept the various property damage involved (it will be a hell of a lot better than fixing holes in dry wall and replacing bloody carpets).

what do you think of the concept?

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#110389 - 01/13/05 04:33 PM Re: pepper spray failures
kman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/03
Posts: 368
Loc: minnesota
Globetrotter,,it's a fairly unique and radical strategy. (IMHO). I don't what the delivery method or quantities are, but CS is a fairly indiscriminate weapon. I'm wondering what exposure you and your family are risking. That needs to be balanced against what effects it will have on the bad guys. If they run,,all's well and good. If they fight through the pain,,,you could be in big trouble. CS is a crystal,,and will hang around for a while. Your house is likely to be uninhabitable for quite a while while youre getting things cleaned up. Any young children or anyone at all with respiratory ailments in the household? quite possibly lethal effects on them depending on amount of exposure and other variables.
I respect your ethic regarding firearms. I would chose a weapon that can be aimed, and is portable. (what if the bad guys flee the house and your together outside and unarmed?)
pepper spray or a taser are good choices. If you have the space and the money a safe room might be a good idea as well. K-

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#110390 - 01/14/05 06:18 AM Re: pepper spray failures
Anonymous
Unregistered


thanks,

I'll tell you what my thinking is.

1. I am not opposed to firearms in general, I have a child and I won't have a firearm in the house that isn't well locked up. I don't think that it is totally practical to expect to unlock a safe at 3 am in a matter of seconds, under duress, and so I am not confident in trusting a firearm for home security, even though I feel it would be the best option. Also, I live in an old house in the middle of a village, and I would be concerned about the safty of getting into a gunfight in my house, who else might get hurt. I actually spent quiet a bit of time in the "firearm business" - I was a light infantry man for several years and a bodyguard and security officer for several years (both in Israel).

2. I see 3 main possiblities for a home invasion (by the way, I live in a town that has had 2 homicides in 20 years - one when a bank robber made the wrong exit off the highway, and one when an urban gang member came to visit a girl and shot the girls boyfriend):

a.kids looking for quick cash - in this case I honestly believe that my shouting and stomping and waving around a batton (the second element of my home security system) will get rid of them.
b. profesionals who break into peoples houses in the middle of the night for a living - in this case I am just waking up, groggy, and they are pumped with adrenaline, and wide awake. If they are armed, I don't realy want to get into a gunfight with them, I want them to want to get out ASAP. if they aren't armed, I still don't want to see them, I want them to want to get out ASAP. I believe that the gas will make it unhospitable enough for them.
c. somebody who has either specifically decided to kill my family, or is drugged up enough to be virtually unstopable. in this case I am screwed in pretty much any case, although having a firearm might be the only real answer for this. I consider it hugely unlikely, though.

3. I have experienced the effects of CS gas, and I really can't imagine anybody fighting through a cloud of gas. that may be a lack of experience with really crazy people, but a closed room full of good quality gas is very very difficult to stay in, espectially when it hits you unaware and espectially when you are breathing hard.

4. a taser, for me, has the same limitations on a firearm - it can be lethal to small children, it needs to be aimed, and even worse, it only has a very limited number of rounds. for me, this seems like a bad solution - it still needs to be locked up, but it isn't as "good" as a firearm, with the exception that you don't need to worry about firing through a wall.

5. I recognize the potential material damage of gas, but the potential damage of a few rounds of birdshot through drywall and 5 liters or so of blood on the carpet strike me as worse.

6. I think that the main advantages that I see are that nobody has to get killed and that I don't need to be in direct line of sight with the bad guys. I just have to make a cloud and get my family out.

but, I am very intersted in any holes in the plan - if anybody sees any fundemental problems with it.

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#110391 - 01/15/05 11:00 PM Re: pepper spray failures
kman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/03
Posts: 368
Loc: minnesota
They make a pistol sized lock box with a touch pad that's shaped like a spread 5 fingers for exactly the purpose you describe.
Magsafe makes a frangible pistol load that will break up on impact. it'll make spaghetti out of tissue at close range but wont go through a wall.
There's well established case law here in the states regarding weapons that are nonselective. A few home owners have been prosecuted and successfully sued by criminals after using guns rigged with trip wires. The indiscriminate nature of the device was the deciding factor. How is your CS controlled? If a burglar is blinded and confused in your gassed house,,goes down in a corner and dies, you're going to face manslaughter charges as well as civil liability. K-

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#110392 - 01/24/05 02:01 AM Re: pepper spray failures
Anonymous
Unregistered


And they are recommending it to nervous women?

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#110393 - 03/08/05 01:20 AM Re: pepper spray failures
otobeawanker Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 192
Loc: CANADA
I've been sprayed with a large amount in the face. I didn't even realize I got sprayed till after the situation was over and my adrenalene wore off. At that point I felt the burn pretty good. Heh heh, a cool wet rag on the face does wonders. But its much like football, you play through the pain. Your too busy fighting/playing to feel, kind of thing I guess. I've always kind of been like that don't feel the pain for a few hours after. Sometime you don't even feel it till the next day. I've played entire football games with broken fingers and not noticed until a few hours after the game.

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#110394 - 03/18/05 05:54 AM Re: pepper spray failures
mark Offline
sword of magnamity

Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 1284
Loc: uk
I've been sprayed with a large amount in the face

Im sure you have, but please dont bother us with details from your lude personal life.....

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#110395 - 03/18/05 12:20 PM Re: pepper spray failures
Anonymous
Unregistered


OC is best used when applied prior to a violent encounter. If a bad guy is motivated or "goal oriented" the effects are much less reliable. This is a problem we face in my town. The cops take some guy down and fight with him for a minute or so. Sometime in there, someone sprays the guy and then complains later that it hadf no effect when he was on the ground kicking and punching.

Duh! Might have worked better had he gotten a blast prior to going hands on.

"Hey look! It's Elvis!"

*pssshhhht*

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#110396 - 04/10/05 05:29 AM Re: pepper spray failures
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wouldn't using a weapon on a non-violent person be considered excessive force and therefore assault?

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#110397 - 04/22/05 04:20 PM Re: pepper spray failures
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
I just went through level 1 contamination with MK4 OC 10%. Needless to say it sucked but it didn't prevent me from making it through the course. The hardest time i had during the course was seeing where i was going. Afterward I was more irritated that i couldn't keep my eyes open than i was with the burning. It was about three hours ago and i can still feel the irritation around my eyes mostly.

It was fun to be able to kick the crap out of someone in a skittle suit though, it's been a while since i had access to gear like that.

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#110398 - 04/28/05 10:44 AM Re: pepper spray failures
Anonymous
Unregistered


I say it is a pcp drug ring of some sort.

but by using the same techniques eventually people will build up an immunity and it wont work. even with batons you can learn to absorb hits and not feel them. the best weapon i think is the elctric chair but some say it is to inhuman.

get a tazer gun. that will work for a while and if not an ak47 should do the trick.

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#110399 - 08/15/05 12:41 AM Re: pepper spray failures [Re: kman]
hugo Offline
Elvis Sharkey

Registered: 08/03/05
Posts: 134
Loc: I am not going to specify that...
It sounds like he was one hell of a brawler. Good on you for finally bringing him down. It's like a horror movie though isn't it?
_________________________
I'm starting afresh.

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#110400 - 08/30/05 04:01 PM Re: pepper spray failures [Re: kman]
Virgils Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 14
One idea that would be good to check up on is what drugs give you resistance to or the impervious reation to pepper spray or other chemical substances. We know glasses or sports glasses are a definite slower of the process. If they are high or on the drugs or designer drugs do they get a temporary immunity to the feel or impact of the drugs. It can be helpful to know and get a guess ifyou notice no efffect. An ex- military guy can probably handle the sprays and chemicals better, but even more so someone high on drugs. I mention this cause some terrorists are known to get high before they do there homicide bombing. Also gang members and the troublesome sort are occassionaly high on something when you try out the stuff. These might be good to help in get idea what the next move should be in the fast evolving situations.

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#110401 - 08/30/05 04:38 PM Re: pepper spray failures [Re: Virgils]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Timing is as much of a factor as anything in the effectiveness of OC Pepper Spray. It is generally most effective if applied before the fight is on as a "goal oriented" subject will not stop just because he can't see straight or experiences pain. For too long, OC has beeen referred to as "Karate in a Can", implying that it would handle even the most violent subjects. This has been proven time and time again to be a myth.
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www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

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