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#110366 - 09/08/04 06:15 AM pepper spray failures
kman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/03
Posts: 368
Loc: minnesota
I've been working an assignment in a ghetto hi rise. It's one man patrol until something develops. In the last month Ive used 2 1/2 cans of pepper spray, drawn my baton 5 times and used it on three occaisons. Drawn my pistol responding to shots fired and held one at gunpoint. I'm becoming a one man statistical trend!
I think I was spoiled way back when I first used pepper spray. the first people I sprayed just crumpled. Lately I've had my eyes opened. Ive had one guy take a faceful of pepper foam (wearing glasses) who was able to turn and run. I caught up to him and gave him some more, at which time he went over backward but was able to take a kick at me while he was on his back. One semi good ASP stroke on his leg convinced him to roll over and put his hands behind his back. Another gentleman resisting arrest took a facefull of foam which only closed one of his eyes. After I peeled his lady friend off my back I gave him another squirt which brought him to his knees where I was able to cuff him. Now for the hairy one. One on one with a pretty good sized guy, LARGE upper body, coked to the eyeballs and ready to fight or run. (I'm pushing 50 so I dont like to run after the young guys anymore.) A good burst of MK-3 caused him to close both eyes and turn his head, at which time I step in and give him a good swift kick in the crotch.(not an academy approved technique) Oops, his head snaps around and here he comes, both eyes open looking straight at me. I back pedal, give him another squirt in the face and for good measure an ASP shot on his left thigh.(exactly like they taught it) This time he comes swinging, I'm shuffling backwards and spraying, he's got both eyes open looking straight into the stream of pepper like it's not there. He pauses, so I skip in and give him another ASP stroke, this one coming from way back. (kinda felt like hitting a long drive.) So now he eyeballs me for a second, then takes off running like a shot! I was standing there all alone when the troops arrived, wondering what in the hell my "intermediate force" weapons were good for? If he had attempted to close again I would probably have swung for his head. (bad ju ju) or had to wrestle with a pepper slimed cokehead and risk losing my gun.
Another guy was able to keep turning his head while we grappled so he never really got a good dose. The can ran empty in the middle of this. I held on to it while I gave him 3 tetsui type fist hammers high on his spine and neck. Another myth exploded,,a chemical agent can does NOT make a good fist maul! Those blows felt kind of funny but did take him to his knees momentarily. I pitched the empty pepper can over my shoulder, got him turned and into a rear naked choke, which was hard to maintain because he was so slimy with the pepper foam. I never got it sunk in to where it was effective and he was able squirm around a lot.(greased goblin effect?) Some other folks were looking ready to join in, so I got the ASP out and clobbered him on the upper arm, shoulder and high part of his back as he turned away. He went back down and just kind of sat there while I cuffed him to the push bar on a door.I held his other arm in an armbar so he couldn't hand his crack baggie off in the crowd until backup arrived.
In the future (which is now) I'm going to be a whole lot less inclined to use pepper spray. It may or may not work and it turns me into a one handed fighter until I do something with the can.(try getting it back in the holster while you're grappling) Sorry if this is kind of long, just wanted to share things with you all and get your feedback. K-

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#110367 - 09/08/04 09:29 PM Re: pepper spray failures
Anonymous
Unregistered


Keep in mind that timing is everything with OC. If the guy is goal oriented, the OC will not likey derail his focus. If he is gonna run, fight or drive away, he 'll do it with a face full of pepper even if he can't see.

I taught an OC class today. We are using less and less of it with the arrival of the M26 & X26 Taser.

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#110368 - 09/12/04 04:50 PM Re: pepper spray failures
kman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/03
Posts: 368
Loc: minnesota
Gotta luv that taser. Wish I had one. K-

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#110369 - 09/13/04 02:02 AM Re: pepper spray failures
Doughnut Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 197
Loc: Mid-west, U.S.A
kman-
1247 ST. Anthony perhaps?

I know you like MK and bodyguard but I still swear by ol' freeze + P. The blend spray just works better on the chemicaly impared and just pepper.

Stay Safe train hard
Doughnut

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#110370 - 09/13/04 11:26 AM Re: pepper spray failures
kman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/03
Posts: 368
Loc: minnesota
Doughnut, close, but no cigar. Similar demographics. The thing I don't like about freeze+p is the CS fumes. In an enclosed space thry're obnoxious, and forget about grappling with a guy that's been sprayed with that stuff!. K-

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#110371 - 09/18/04 04:51 PM Re: pepper spray failures
Doughnut Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 197
Loc: Mid-west, U.S.A
aggreed that the fumes are strong, but that is one of the reasons it works so well, the GAS does alot of work.

At any rate I assume that although you are dissillusioned with back up in a can you will continue to employ it.

If that is the case may I sugest the following. Wear gloves and a nylon raid style jacket to minamize contact with spray on offender you have doused, and bring an extra uniform to work to help tidy up and make the rest of the shift more bearable.

I am sure these ideas have occured to an old hand like you so for what its worth...

Oh yes, and have a mexecan resturaunt delivery number handy. Once the spray gets in the ventilation you may want to have an excuse such as "they use real hot sauce on these babies! cant you just smee the heat from here? I am sure it would work... Pepper always makes ME hungrey.
Doughnut

PS Seward towers in MPLS?

[This message has been edited by Doughnut (edited 09-18-2004).]

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#110372 - 11/09/04 01:50 AM Re: pepper spray failures
Big Bear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/15/03
Posts: 1068
Loc: Northern Ireland
CS gas/spray.

For the record i am not trained in using it yet, but i will be in a few months. I dunno if that is a good or bad thing.

Sorry its sounds so cynical men, but its not that i do not thikg the CS is a good tool, it's just when it is used where i am we get investigated straight away!!!!

The strange thing is that we are instructed to use it B4 we use our batons. So instead of using our batons we are to use something that opens up an investigation straight away!!?? And what usually happens, when it is used, the person that you spray with it, tries to tell the investigating authorities that they were giving 1st aid when they ot sprayed!!

I'm actually getting more and more annoyed the more i write here so i am going to have to go.

Keep safe

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#110373 - 11/11/04 01:12 AM Re: pepper spray failures
Anonymous
Unregistered


Look donít give up hope. Iím an (OCAT) instructor and I can tell you, that what must of you use is pretty good, as far as Bodyguard, Freeze + P, Sabre Law enforcement unit, First Defense and I could go on for days. One thing I donít recommend is name brand Mace, it is crap and is not a good product. If you havenít tried Punch II Streamer you should, that is a good product made by Areko International the same company that makes Freeze + P. I recommend FOX 5.3shu but only 2% O.C., Great product because it is hell on wheels and is made just for a fast attack style so that it will come on very strong and powerful at first and the effects last for only 20 min. They made the product like that so it stops a person dead in their tracks and lets you do your thing and in about 20 minutes the suspect will come back around. It can do that because the O.C. count is so low.

I also would recommend that you use a cone or a fog type spray, instead of foam. Donít get me wrong I use foam to depending on who and what my current duties are. But a fog or cone brings on more power in the small general area that you trying to control. Also if your not (OCAT) trained and have never used the spray on your self, I would say take a class if your area offers it. But remember that if someone is all pumped up on drugs most O.C.ís will not work, then it is time for them to meet your other friend Mr. ASP Baton or PR-24 depending on what you use. Well good luck and be careful.

Also if you really want to stop someone and I promise it will, try to pick up a can of (M-G-5) made by Areko International. If that doesnít work I would like to see this place you work at and what kind of people you deal with. One last thing if you do find the product I listed above and have to use it make sure you run like hell once you deploy it, the come back in about 20 minutes and see who is still standing. The new Tazer guns are good too I got my new one a week ago and love it. But just try to find what I listed above I promise it will work and you wont have to worry about holding the can and fighting

[This message has been edited by ocman (edited 11-11-2004).]

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#110374 - 11/11/04 08:06 AM Re: pepper spray failures
kman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/03
Posts: 368
Loc: minnesota
Bear, Most folks recover from a dose of OC in 20 min to an hour with no observable after effects. A baton strike can create an injury such as a contusion or a fracture. Easily documented by ER staff or an attorney. It only follows that the baton would be further along the force continum. Most places OC is considered a pain compliance tool, but safer than arm locks due to not causing sprains. K-

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#110375 - 11/11/04 08:45 AM Re: pepper spray failures
Big Bear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/15/03
Posts: 1068
Loc: Northern Ireland
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kman:
Bear, Most folks recover from a dose of OC in 20 min to an hour with no observable after effects. A baton strike can create an injury such as a contusion or a fracture. Easily documented by ER staff or an attorney. It only follows that the baton would be further along the force continum. Most places OC is considered a pain compliance tool, but safer than arm locks due to not causing sprains. K-[/QUOTE]

Kman,

i appreciate that pal and am well aware of that the baton causes more damage. The only thing is that over here there are certain elenments in government (i'm not gettin too deep into it as its not a political debate) that are arguing against the use of the Spray!? i don't understand it as i know it has less lasting affects, and it causes less damage but some supposedly highly intelligent folk think it would be wiser to get hit with a baton!!!

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