FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 33 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
sunny, swordy, jerrybarry24, SenseiGregT, sagat
22914 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Ed_Morris 4
futsaowingchun 3
AndyLA 2
Zombie Zero 2
Matakiant 2
September
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30
New Topics
STX Kickboxing Seminar
by Marcus Charles
09/09/14 06:57 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
09/01/14 03:51 AM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
mindfullness meditation
by
01/06/09 11:27 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by
05/13/07 08:02 AM
Recent Posts
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Matakiant
Today at 07:11 AM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
Today at 06:07 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by Zombie Zero
09/16/14 04:43 PM
Eugue Ryu
by kolslaw
09/12/14 03:35 PM
attacked from behind
by AndyLA
09/07/14 07:01 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
09/01/14 03:51 AM
mindfullness meditation
by log1call
08/31/14 09:43 PM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
Forum Stats
22914 Members
36 Forums
35575 Topics
432494 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#110283 - 06/25/04 08:47 PM Aikido and Law Enforcement
dj1023 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/23/04
Posts: 87
Loc: Asia
Hello friends
Since aikido techniques aren't easy to learn(bearing in mind the particular circular steps/ movements in its techniques) yet effective in its own right

I was wondering based from your personal experience as a Law enforcement agent/ officer, about the arts effectiveness during arresting or apprehending a suspect?

With the arts syllabus that takes quite some time to master do police units take excuse the term " crash course aikido " for police officers?

On a different note:

In Indonesia the police units are trained mostly in striking arts such as karate, silat, kempo and jujutsu. Although they are trained in the arresting techniques most apprehensions are still very "amateur" (generally slugging the suspect into a somewhat near KO state then applying the control.
I find this interesting since American law enforcement officers and Europeans are quite efficient (respected and notorious) in their arresting techniques as compared to the Indonesian police force.

Thx

Hormat, damai, sejahtera
Peace, respect and joy

Top
#110284 - 06/26/04 03:27 AM Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have a rather dim view of Martial Arts in general when they are "plugged" into Police Training curriculums, including Aikido. Aikido based systems are favored by Police Administrators because of liability, not because they are the most effective, practical or instructable.

The level of experience and skill required to pull off true Aikido is far beyond what is practical for police and corrections officers who might see the material once a year if they are lucky.

There are few if any Martial Arts that comprehensively address police needs by themselves.

This will no doubt be debated by Aikido people who feel that an armlock is Aikdo (wakegatame)and an armlock with a wrist compression is Aikido (Ikkyo) so all cops must be using the art and that makes it the best.

Top
#110285 - 07/10/04 08:30 AM Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement
Anonymous
Unregistered


While I'm not an LEO, I did do Aikido for a few years. I enjoy that art but I don't feel like it was a plug and play solution for law enforcement. Like Fletch1 states, it takes a lot of practice to execute techniques correctly and even more to do them under stress. What's more, Aikido, at least as I practiced it, is very passive. As a civilian I had no obligation to stop a bad guy. But for an LEO, they are duty bound to confront and restrain lawbreakers and a passive martial art is simply too limiting.

I have read of Aikido instructors that have altered techniques after working with police departments, in an effort to develop a series of moves/concepts for LEOs. They seemed to have significiant success but they admitted that it no longer looked much like Aikido when it was all said and done.

I've had serveral friends who at one time or another, have served in LE. Thier experince with other officers indicate that most LEOs don't regularly train with either H2H or even firearms. They do just enough to pass thier firearms qualifications. This is unfortuante because that one time they really need to have sharpe skills, they often do not. I'm not trying to knock LEOs I'm simply saying that most PDs don't have a training budget capable of handling the kind of ongoing training I feel that LEOs should have and many officers are simply like the rest of us. Restricted by time and funds. Also many go for years and year without ever having a physcial confrontation and they can become complacient.

I think more and more PDs are attempting to up the ante these days and give thier officers more training and many are requiring thier officers to qualify with thier firearms as many as four times a year. This is a step in the right direction and for the sake of the LEOs I hope this trend continues.

Top
#110286 - 07/11/04 07:44 PM Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement
loki Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/11/04
Posts: 844
I believe that Aikido is a complex art.
As it is complex it may take years to master.
It is also one of the only arts that teach healing of the aggressor.

As stated by others,most police forces have limited H2H training. Hence the reasoning of having a gun.

Even the Asp training is very limited.

I have trained officers, and teach mostly: Boxing/a few low level kicks(Shin,ankle,knee)/the mechanics of chokes/the mechanics of locks/Balance disruptions/elbows/weapon mechanics.

Aikido & the law: Sure as a base study this sophisticated art. If time is on your side.Yet remember,that it being such a complex art,blending with an attack may sound easy, it is not.

A special unique instructor must be found, one that knows dirty tricks played on the street. One that knows weapons used.

I recently showed a Karambit,a very unique knife to a police officer.(Picture only)

He could not believe this knife and did not know much about this threat.

Top
#110287 - 07/12/04 12:38 PM Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement
Anonymous
Unregistered


I can't say that I'm surprised that an officer hadn't see a Karambit before.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of law enforcement for the most part and I have a great deal of respect for the men and women doing hands on law enforcement. But they typically are not practicing any type of martial arts, boxing or what have you and most are not gun people. And while they are more likely to have a confrontation with a BG (bad guy) the are also more likely to not be doing it alone and they are always armed. This changes the dynamics of martial arts or any self defense system. And as I mentioned earlier LEOs have a duty to engage these guy while the rest of us do not.

It's a bit complex but I think that while the nature of the job brings LEOs into contact with BGs more than the rest of us, its in a completely different contex. For the rest of us our contact with the BGs is usually as a potential victim. (I don't guess I've ever heard of a uniformed police office being mugged!)

But as I uderstand it, pretty much all officers get some basics in H2H. If they stay in law enforcement for any lenght of time, they figure out what works for them and what doesn't. I believe that a few simple arm bars and wrist locks are generally what they end up with. That's a long way from being profecient in any martial art.

I would encourage any LEOs on the board to pursue as much H2H training as they can stand and to encourage thier peers and department heads to do the same.

Top
#110288 - 07/12/04 08:12 PM Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement
loki Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/11/04
Posts: 844
I agree Two gun: Most police officiers are so tied up with B.S. it is hard for them to do any extra activities.

B.S, being going to court, when someone IS guilty. Talk about wasting the taxpayers money.

Back on topic: Many officers have little time to do any H2H. Yet it being their job,I would of thought a knife like the Karambit would of beem known.

The OPP that I presently train was shown very little with the ASP. Retaintion was nil,so I should him some basic Kali.

After working with him for four years the guy can really go.

Kobun

Top
#110289 - 07/12/04 09:59 PM Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement
Anonymous
Unregistered


That's great. Such an oppertunity should be avaliable to everyone on the thin blue line.

While most officers seldom have an oppertunity to stop a criminal during the commision of a crime, they often make arrest after the fact and they usually have several officers present. I know that doesn't always hold true and I know officers that have had to handle beligerent drunks on nearly every shift they work. But I think the vast percentage of the rank and file officers, and decetives don't find them selves in a physcial confrontation every day. While that's good, it also sometimes leaves them complacient and they lack incintive to train with all the BS you mentioned.

So I applaud those LEOs who squeeze in the time to get some quality training and once again encourage anyone in Law Enforcement to do so.

Top
#110290 - 08/10/04 02:59 PM Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement
Anonymous
Unregistered


Many officers do not take the time to develop themselves in unarmed urban warfare. I have studied since I was 16 (30 now)a variety of martial arts, jiu-jitsu to black belt and many of others as a supplement. I just don't buy the whole "it takes years" to master idea. It does take years to master someone elses way of doing it, but not your way of doing it. Respect tradition, but don't be confined to it.

Police officers are taught just enough for a department to say "we taught them". Which is too bad for those that don't add to their arsenal throughout their life. But there does exist that hardcore inner circle of officers of every police department that are better at violence than the the hardcore street thug. They are why the half hearted arm locks of the incompetent officers work. Thugs do not know which type of officer they have run into and often are not willing to chance it. They would rather take the plea and get 1 day out of it than take the ass whoopin and carry the scars with them for life.

Now with my philisophical rambling out of the way... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG], all arts have something to add to police work. Combatives for LE MUST be a hybrid version of many styles. No one style can do the job, but aikido is a good foundation. And I think also, that people get so caught up in Asian tradition or some other countries way of doing it, we forget about our own way of doing it. Americans are masters of taking something and making it better, much better. Street thugs survive great levels of violence every day with no martial arts training. Think about that.

Top
#110291 - 06/11/05 09:57 PM Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement [Re: dj1023]
devinw Offline
Member

Registered: 06/11/05
Posts: 66
Loc: Utah
There is a difference between martial arts (such as Aikido) and Defensive Tactics- I love them both and think both have uses. Let me share my humble opinion.

D.T- Must Emphasize speed, simplicity and effectiveness. can not take years to perfect.It MUST focus is on real world self-defense (real cases of violence against agents or officers) empty-hand tactics, striking tactics, handcuffing, baton tactics, Person searches, falling and ground tactics, edged weapon , Tear gas tactics, handgun retention or handgun disarming, armed attacks etc

Some exampes are located at - Defensive tactics courses

Certified Defensive Tactics Courses Modern Warrior


Martial Arts- Which I love as well;0) but takes time to learn and practice, most of us while practicing M.A do not worry about a handgun being strapped to our hip or ankle.

We do not worry about rolling around on the ground with a guy hyped on drugs reaching for the gun. While trying to punch you in the face.

With that said I do think after years of study and working out in the field you will learn quickly what will work and what will not and become effective at protecting yourself.


More Resources and Interestining Reading:

Use of Force Tactics and No lethal Weapons, paper published by Americans for Effective in Law Enforcement, in 1988.

Non-lethal Weapons: A Survey of Officers, published by Defensive Tactics Newsletter in Lakeland, FL: ISC Division of Wellness, in April 1993, vol. II, number 4;
USE-OF-FORCE TACTICS AND NON-LETHAL WEAPONRY

The truth is , sadly most Officers and Agents must pay out of their own pocket to get great training. Most departments do not have it in the budget.

My two cents;
Devin Willis

Top
#110292 - 06/11/05 11:47 PM Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement [Re: devinw]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Excellent points.

As inappropriate as martial arts are for LE however, there are many programs supposedly designed for and marketed to LE that are nothing more than repackaged martial arts.
_________________________
www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

Top
#110293 - 06/12/05 12:05 AM Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement [Re: dj1023]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Forget technique, my aikido teacher always says. Aikido is a principle-based art. There is nothing wrong in using the principles (using the technical forms as a basis for exploration) and coming up with something more suitably effective in an arrest situation.

The Tokyo Police started out doing Yoshinkan Aikido, but abandoned it later, taking the principles of what they had learnt and created their own set of techniques and called it "aiki taiho jutsu" (I think!).

(Traditional Nihon) Jujitsu is also a good technical base to start from, as most of the JJ techniques are designed for that particular purpose, joint lock controls, nerve points, and pain compliance.

Top
#110294 - 06/12/05 04:41 AM Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement [Re: eyrie]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Quote:



(Traditional Nihon) Jujitsu is also a good technical base to start from, as most of the JJ techniques are designed for that particular purpose, joint lock controls, nerve points, and pain compliance.




The key verbage is "to start from". For basic recruit training at the academy level, this is a nuts and bolts process of showing how the body works and doesn't work within the confines of static training and cooperative to moderately non compliant subject scenarios.

There are few if any martial arts that comprehensively address LE and CO tactics.
_________________________
www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

Top
#110295 - 06/12/05 07:29 AM Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement [Re: eyrie]
devinw Offline
Member

Registered: 06/11/05
Posts: 66
Loc: Utah
I would just add a quick note to Fletch1's great comments .

The Tokyo police and other LE Units in Japan developed and use systems in about 1947 and has evolved with the times into the "police way" or "Keisatsujutsu" and their "arresting way" or "Taiho jutsu"

There are weapons/tool arts included, such as Keibo Soho (police methods with a police stick ), Tokushu Keibo Soho (police methods with the collapsible baton, e.g. Asp), Hojo-Jutsu (police methods of mechanical restraint with rope, handcuffs, etc.) Keijo-Jutsu (police application of jojutsu, combat with a stick), and Hojutsu (firearms training).

In my humble opinion, it seems like Japan is heading towards LE Defensive Tactics System and away from the Martial Arts directiction.

Resourses and Intresting reading

Self-Defense Forums: For A Fighting Chance > Police Defensive Tactics Post by Jeff Cook Dec 2001

An Introduction to Police Defensive Tactics by By Bernie Lau



Humbly,

Devin Willis

Top
#110296 - 06/24/05 10:07 PM Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement [Re: devinw]
mateo Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 63
Loc: Toronto
I wish the hair dos in the Lau video were the same today as they provide very convenient handles for him in his "Police Weaponless Defense" video. The attacking time and knife attacks are appropriately sobering on that video.

Robert Koga, LAPD Defensive Tactics trainer, released a video series called "Practical Aikido" which I found even more interesting in showing how an aikidoka approaches law enforcement duties. Interesting were the changes he made to the system to adapt it to police work. I found Volumes 5 and 3 particularly good.
_________________________
Matthew Rogers www.spiritforging.com

Top
#110297 - 07/24/05 05:58 AM Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement [Re: mateo]
samurai117 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 43
Japanese police forces still train in Yoshinkan Aikido. It is requeset training for the elite Tokyo Metro Riot Police, and every female officer. Yes learining a martial art is hard and takes years, so does shooting a gun or pursuit driving, many of the skills that are required to be a police officer. Aikido is very well suited for law enforcement. Primary premis - control the attacker without causing undue harm. Hard to do with kicks and punches. For more information check out www.keishoukan.com

Top
#110298 - 07/24/05 09:40 AM Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement [Re: dj1023]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA
This is an interesting topic area.

Aikido used to form the core of North Carolina's basic law enforcement defensive tactics curriculum. There were numerous defenses based largely, if not entirely, on Aikido. However, we now have a more well rounded defensive tactics program (which I am certified instructor in.) The program utilized more strikes, kicks, some basic bjj type stuff, etc. One of it's weaknesses (in my opinion) is that there is not much emphasis on takedowns. There are only two taught; an armbar type take down (which is highly effective) and a two officer takedown called the "high/low takedown" which I think creates a pretty high propensity for injury to the officers.

As far as my practical experience the Aikido type wrist locks and arm bars can be highly beneficial to the officer in escort, handcuffing type situations. I'm not to sure about there effectiveness against aggressive punching or grappling type situations. As far as Aikido and law enforcement application I guess I'd have to say that the jury is still out on it.

Top
#110299 - 07/28/05 12:29 AM Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement [Re: Intrepidinv1]
samurai117 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 43
I also think something which missing from a lot of dojo's is resistive partners. I feel this is needed after a certain level (so you don't kill each other) You need to train resistivly. I am fortunate to train with guys who have strong wrestling and Judo backgrounds. So after doing the basic technique for several reps I'll say resist if you can fall if you can't. We will do the technique most times it works, if it dosen't work I'll use their resistance against them and transition into another technique.

Top
#110300 - 07/28/05 01:03 AM Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement [Re: samurai117]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
The time it takes to get to that level is one of the major problems associated with Aikido training for Law Enforcement.

I cannot speak for the Tokyo Police, but the general consensus of Aikido based LE programs is that their focus is on appealing to administrators over line personnel. The question shifts from "does it work?" and "can the average officer make it work?", to "how does it look?".


Edited by Fletch1 (07/28/05 01:04 AM)
_________________________
www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

Top
#110301 - 07/28/05 11:36 AM Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement [Re: samurai117]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA
Samarai,

I like your approach to this. If you have a chance go back and read the comments I made today under the Aikido, multiple opponents thread. I am intriqued by Aikido, it challenges me mentally but I have to practice the way you mentioned in order to feel confident about it. I would like this type of training that you guys are doing.

One of my Sensei's in the Aikido class I was attending told me point blank, "if you want a more combat oriented Aikido then you should probably look for another class." They simply don't seem to care that what they're practicing is not combat effective, that is evidentally not why they are there. More power to them but I don't understand why anyone would practice something that they cannot use to defend themselves with. I like the comaraderie and the fitness aspect buy why practice something that is supposed to be a defense against a certain type of attack if you know it won't work for real?

Top
#110302 - 07/28/05 11:40 AM Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement [Re: samurai117]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA
if it dosen't work I'll use their resistance against them and transition into another technique.




This is what I consider to be the real concept of Aikido, the ability to be able to rapidly switch from one technique to another and take the opponents balance. If a person trains in the manner you mentioned and highly refines his/her ability to take the other person's balance as soon as the opening is created, that's what I consider advanced Aikido.

Top
#110303 - 07/29/05 05:35 AM Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement [Re: Intrepidinv1]
samurai117 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 43
If you are looking for Aikido that focuses on practical technique, I would suggest Yoshinkan Aikido or Shodokan(Tomiki)Aikido.

Top
#110304 - 07/30/05 11:19 AM Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement [Re: samurai117]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA
I'll check it out.

Top
#110305 - 07/31/05 10:48 AM Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement [Re: Intrepidinv1]
kickcatcher Offline
Member

Registered: 12/30/04
Posts: 200
Loc: UK
Aikijitsu is the core arrest & restraint Iíve been exposed to. Itís completely useless IMO. The basic reason that LE where I am (in UK) and Iím sure many places have opted for aiki arts is that it is politically correct. Accusations of police brutality would be even more if the police taught itís guys how to KO someone. Other factors include that most police forces hire whoever happens to be selling whatever. There are plenty of people in the Aiki community who think that theirs is a good way and try to flog their services to LE Ėsadly theyíre mistaken (IMO).
_________________________
Judokakakakaka!!!!!!!

Top
#110306 - 08/24/05 06:05 PM Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement [Re: Intrepidinv1]
AkhilleusWeeps Offline
Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 214
Loc: Tx
Quote:

if it dosen't work I'll use their resistance against them and transition into another technique.




This is what I consider to be the real concept of Aikido, the ability to be able to rapidly switch from one technique to another and take the opponents balance. If a person trains in the manner you mentioned and highly refines his/her ability to take the other person's balance as soon as the opening is created, that's what I consider advanced Aikido.




I train in Aikikai, which to most may be the softest of Aikido lines, and have been fortunate enough to have a great sensei who has made the study of this art his life. The great thing about it is that he shows you how/why it works, and even if we performed the technique sloppy and it worked we are to do it over again and again with proper technique, and thats what matters. No matter how resistant or strong the opponent maybe the stress put on the joints from such behaviour will result in a break or just a clumsy fall. Now I understand many don't teach this why perhaps that is why it is dogged so often.

Here something I found interesting, note what he says was the result of the perp resisting =]

http://www.aikidoonline.com/Archives/2002/sep/clmn_0902_bcorner.html
_________________________
Goal:Enshin Honbu Dojo

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >


Moderator:  Cord, Fletch1, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Self Defense
Offering stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and other self defense products not available in stores.

Pepper Spray
Online distributor of self defense supplies like videos, stun guns, Tasers and more.

Spy Cameras
Surveillance, Hidden Cameras, Nanny Cams, Digital Recorders, Spy Equipment, Pocket DVR's and more

Stun Gun
Wholesale Directlhy to the Public! Stun gun and Taser Guns and personal protection products. Keep your loved ones at home safe!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga