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#110230 - 03/06/04 08:39 PM Approching a trained subject
Doughnut Offline

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 197
Loc: Mid-west, U.S.A
Some of you are in agencies and Orgs. that have limited weaponry allowed. What is you policy AND how do You approch a subject you belive or know has MA or combat training?

Is the Policy effective?

Is the way you do it effective?

Any "War" stories? (I love those)


#110231 - 04/12/04 12:21 AM Re: Approching a trained subject
kman Offline

Registered: 05/15/03
Posts: 368
Loc: minnesota
The first factor to consider is,"do I need to do this or can it wait? One of the most effective fighting stratgies in LE is to CALL FOR BACK UP. Superior numbers is the worlds greatest equalizer. If it cant wait,,Im coming in spraying OC and swinging a baton (preferably after he's blinded).
Our policy is to be one level of force above the suspect. I use bodyguard 10% LE only spray. So far it has a 100% stop rate for me.Last time I used it the moron perp was working himself up,,swearing and posturing. While he was grounding his hat and jacket I was drawing my spray and holding it down by my leg. As he came in I gave him a good one second spray in the face, fight over. God I love technology! K-

#110232 - 04/12/04 11:48 PM Re: Approching a trained subject
Spanky-77 Offline

Registered: 03/03/04
Posts: 176
Loc: Kansas City, MO USA
I'm there with kman and will use what is available to me. We use PunchII that is 5% and is waterbased since we are going to get TAZER's....tazer's and isopropyl alcohol really don't mix. If that doesn't work I'd put out and officer assist or call for back-up. As soon as he/she grabs for my gun it is over and they'll get one to the head. Sounds violent but that is the clientel we come into contact with each and everyday. Usually when you are in a knockdown dragout fight anything goes in order to get control of the subject. The problem LE officers run into is the fact that we cannot continue to pound on a subject after he is controlled or subdued unlike a street fight when you can continue to beat the crap out the a-hole.

#110233 - 04/13/04 01:28 PM Re: Approching a trained subject
xerxes Offline

Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 515
Loc: Georgia, USA
First of all, I'm not an LEO.

But, how would you KNOW someone is a trained subject?

And, what IS a trained subject? A person who has studied a martial art for ten years? Someone who has done Western boxing for ten years and competed in amateur matches? Someone who was trained in hand-to-hand combet while in the military?

#110234 - 04/13/04 02:03 PM Re: Approching a trained subject
the504mikey Offline

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
I agree with what Xerxes says, but I wanted to take it a step further for emphasis...

I believe that the more highly trained an individual is, the less warning you will get from the time he "tips his hand" and the first blow lands. You can look for general indicators-- body positioning, eye movement, foot placement, but you really never know. As such, I think you should develop a "standard practice" for approaching that you always employ, without making any guesses or assumptions about who you are dealing with.

This is beneficial in more than one way-- you want to make your "best practice" a habit that doesn't require thought, so that under duress it becomes your automatic response. Also, you don't want to run the risk of bringing your "C" game to someone who you really should have brought your "A" game to.

Unfortunately, you may not get more than one chance to underestimate someone. I'm not saying you should brutalize everyone you come into contact with, but you should always be extremely aware of safe body positioning and potential physical threats, no matter how goofy the subject appears at first glance-- you never know who might decide to throw an elbow or worse if he sees an opportunity.

#110235 - 05/12/04 02:19 PM Re: Approching a trained subject
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
I'm not into the law Business either but if I was, everyone that approached me would be seen as an expert, never under estimate your opponent.

#110236 - 05/16/04 10:37 AM Re: Approching a trained subject
SheepDog Offline

Registered: 05/03/04
Posts: 6
Unless you are psychic you cannot tell 100% if a subject is "highly trained" or not. Your safest course of action is to treat everyone as if they are trained, and put them in a position of greatest disadvantge to them, and greatest advantage to you. Prone them out, cross their legs (figure-four), interlaced fingers, head turned away from you. Maintain your weapon position until you have complete control over the subject. Be ready to ditch the hold you have, get distance and go back to weapons. Wall searches will get you killed. If you are mobile you are safer, if the subject is mobile the subject is dangerous. Backup is always good to have before you put hands on, but if that isn't possible prone them out (belly down) and keep them there until you can secure them safely. The bad guys practice defeating cuffing techniques daily, are you training daily? Don't worry you have the rest of you life to figure it out...
Stay Alert, Stay Alive

#110237 - 05/30/04 07:24 AM Re: Approching a trained subject
Celtic Dirk Offline

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2
Loc: Occupied East Tennessee, CSA
Allow an old cop to reply. Challange only from an interrogation stance. It resembles a "T" stance, weapon side away from suspect. Use a gentle tone of voice but allow suspect no room for doubt. If he uses his hands or feet use baton or ASP. Put him down hard. Shins at first if no response it is time for elbow or coller bone strikes. If he pulls a knife retreat about fifteen feet and cancel his ticket there and them. If he has gun get behind COVER and send him home to Jesus or whomever. Remember, disparity of force. Female or older officer can use much more force against younger punk. Stay Safe.

#110238 - 06/09/04 07:39 PM Re: Approching a trained subject
loki Offline

Registered: 04/11/04
Posts: 844
Trained criminals :

Just about any kid can throw a spining back kick. Hence the level of fighting knowledge is very high. Having said this, it doesn't mean that these kids are proficient fighters.
Yet they can never be underestimated, as know one should be.

As I have done some security details, I do agree with some statements offered by seasoned police officiers. Having trained clients from the OPP I can tell you that apart from Block training, not much else is done in the MA format.

It is incouraged that a police officer take up some form of Boxing/MA. It is to my knowlege that many are burdened by so many other things that MA training is non existant.

A good book that I recomend to read for the police : Far Beyond Defensive Tactics by Loren Christensen.

Take care out there !!
Kobun Out

#110239 - 06/21/04 05:52 PM Re: Approching a trained subject

Some of you are in agencies and Orgs. that have limited weaponry allowed. What is you policy AND how do You approch a subject you belive or know has MA or combat training?
Is the Policy effective?

There is no policy written to comprehensively address this scenario aside from the idea of using objectively reasonable force. What exactly is that? Well, you might be in it up to your eyeballs before you figure it out. That is, either you have background info on him, he tips his hand and adopts a posture or he uses a skill that you recognize as a trained response.

Assuming the officer knows that the subject has training, the unofficial directive is to await backup, form a plan and utilize intermediate weapons (taser, oc, batons, leg restraints, etc) as needed.

Is the way you do it effective?

Me personally? Yes. Getting an entire agency on the same sheet of music is an entirely different story though.

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