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#110088 - 08/24/03 07:45 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Sweeney --

Ok, so you used a techique successfully. You said you took a razor from someone. Thats fine Sweeney...I could probably make it work against invalids, 15 year old computer geeks and maybe some drunken homeless people -- does that mean I still want to train it? Absolutely not! My premium is making my technique work against skilled, conditioned, aggressive, athletic, SOBER fighters! In that case, aikido is NOT going to work!

For those who think that they CAN make it work and would like a friendly testing ground, you're welcome to come into my gym and try it under friendly conditions and see for yourself:

We are located at:

Crucible Gym
5940 Germanton Rd
Winston-Salem, NC
27105

If you can make it work under vale tudo conditions, I will be the first to line up and shake your hand! I will also vow to become a student of the nearest aikido school and throw out everything I have learned from real performance based arts and wear the sacred hakama forevermore!

But that's not going to happen is it? NO it's not....

If I can make my technique work against the skilled fighters that I face, I KNOW I can make it work against the drunk and disorderly, and that's the difference. We only have so much training time in the day. Wouldn't you rather spend that precious time doing things that are higher percentage?? I know I do! Aikido, especially for law enforcement (and for the reasons I just specified) isn't going to make the cut my friend.

Welcome to the new world!

-John

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#110089 - 08/24/03 08:04 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Sweeney Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 342
Loc: New York, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
Sweeney --

Ok, so you used a techique successfully. You said you took a razor from someone. Thats fine Sweeney...I could probably make it work against invalids, 15 year old computer geeks and maybe some drunken homeless people...

...Welcome to the new world!

-John
[/QUOTE]

1. He wasn't an invalid, a 15-year-old computer geek or a drunken skell. He was about 200 pounds, mid-40s, muscular and emotionally disturbed. He was waving the razor at a bunch of rookie cops who were keeping their distance and had no idea whether to shoot him, call for K9 patrol or what. He had used the razor on himself and had tried to slash one of them when they got too close. I've also gotten complete control of two ex-marines (recent, not octegenarians or anything) in demo sessions using the technique, and neither was trying to be accommodating. The beauty of kotegaeshi is that one need not inlfict any serious harm to gain control of the opponent. There is something to be said for that, I think, if your job requires public service (as mine did) and maybe even something to be said for it in general.

2. What "new world" are you referring to? Do you mean the Western Hemisphere? If so, I was born here, almost 45 years ago, but thanks for the belated welcome. Or is it some reference to a "new world" where the old silly stuff like certain Aikido principles of peace and harmony no longer have value? Where we strive for quick and effective devastation capabilities with minimal training, cause, hey, who's really got time for anything more in this busy "new world"? I'll end with another quote:
[QUOTE]

What's so funny about peace, love and understanding?

-Elvis Costello
[/QUOTE]

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#110090 - 08/24/03 08:30 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
We're not talking about values here. We're talking about evolution within the context of training instead of relying on a century old propaganda.

If you want spirituality, go to church and live a spiritual life. Its also a great deal easier to be a spiritual being when our demons are confronted and conquered and we can thus grow beyond them. If our egos are thus confronted through the medium of athetic training, we create an avenue for growth. However...contrived training with compliant partners will not provide this same causeway.


-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 08-24-2003).]

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#110091 - 08/24/03 08:35 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]To secure peace is to prepare for war...

- Metallica
[/QUOTE]


-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 08-24-2003).]

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#110092 - 08/24/03 08:49 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sweeney:
Here's something posted by Shotokan in the Aikido forum, under the thread "Karate Hard, Aikido Soft?" I'm not sure which "war" he's referring to. Does anyone know anything more about the Navy SEALS being trained in Aikido?

"...Why do you think Aikido was used so extensively in the war? Why do you think the US army and the Navy Seals include Aikido in their hand to hand training? Because it's been proven to be effective to them in real combat situations..."
[/QUOTE]


I have two friends who are former SEALs. One is my Kenjutsu sensei, with advanced rank also in Judo, Daito Ryu and Shotokan. Both say that the hand- to- hand taught in the teams is Ju- jutsu based, and not very good. It's sort of an afterthought, done only when they've worked through all the ARMED portion of their training to exhaustion. Hence many SEALs train in MAs on their own time.



[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 08-24-2003).]

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#110093 - 08/24/03 09:05 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Sweeney Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 342
Loc: New York, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
We're not talking about values here...

If you want spirituality, go to church and live a spiritual life. Its also a great deal easier to be a spiritual being when our demons are confronted and conquered and we can thus grow beyond them...
[/QUOTE]

1. We ARE talking about values because we are talking about what sorts of measures police should take against citizens.

2. No offense, but I've never found much spiritual nourishment in churches, shuls and the like. Better to find a path that can be followed in every day-to-day action. IMHO.

3. Just what demons are you confronting?

(Nice Metallica quote, BTW)

And now:

[QUOTE]
And so it must be all a game of chess he's playing...but you're wrong, Steve...you see...it's only...solitaire.

-Ian Anderson (Jethro Tull)
[/QUOTE]



[This message has been edited by Sweeney (edited 08-24-2003).]

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#110094 - 08/24/03 09:31 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Before we all go off on tangents, let us all remember that we are talking about training.

We can talk about ideals such as what actions that police "should" take with citizens. However, when I talk with most police (such as the guys who are cops and members/students within my gym), they're more concerned with going home at night.
That's why we train in alive arts rather than "pretend" martial arts that don't work under duress.

Then, when they're at home, alive...they might be able to think about becoming spiritual. But when I think about it, they can study "dead" arts and become dead themselves when their training fails them ---thus becoming pure spirit! LOL


-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 08-24-2003).]

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#110095 - 08/24/03 09:35 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
As to demons....only the one's were born with and outgrow through proper training.

You HAVE worked through your's haven't you? Or are you the sole perfect being created without any???

Eh?


-John

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#110096 - 08/24/03 11:21 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Sweeney Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 342
Loc: New York, USA
Personal demons? Wow, didn't think it would get this deep. But one of my earliest memories relates to death on the street, so it's right on point. When I was five, my father was stabbed to death chasing down a guy who had been shaking down a bartender for protection money. My father wasn't a cop, but he decided he didn't like what was going on, and he and some others went after the guy. John Maloney caught him, took a surprise knife to the heart, and died almost immediately. Since then I've grown up seeking to be prepared against such things as the sudden knife attack and at the same time bearing in mind that when you kill someone you hurt others as well (like the kids the dead guy left behind). To me, martial arts and spiritual goals are inseparable: if this seems antiquated and outmoded to you, you are entitled to your opinion. As for police, I respect that they are putting their lives on the line and certainly wouldn't ask them to take additional risks just to be politically correct. I worked with lots of cops when I was a paramedic, and I've done a lot of informal training with state and federal agents who are friends or colleagues. On the street, I have seen cops overreact in some situations and underreact in others, and, more often, I've seen them react admirably and professionally. I have saved a few victims of police shootings (one totally unjustified against an unarmed cab driver, probably due to an acidental discharge while "covering") and have also taken injured cops to the hospital after MVAs resulting from overzealous responses to 10-13s ("cop in trouble" call in NYPD). Frankly, I would not want their job, so I certainly feel that some slack ought to be given to those who do it. But by the same token it is an important matter of public concern just what the police do and don't do to the citizens. I doubt you'd want them breaking down your door and putting a gun to your head to get a confession because someone accused you of something. These days I'm a lawyer and, unfortunately, I do see that a lot of violation of rights of the accused occurs all too frequently. This is a matter of concern for us all. But to get back to the point: kotegaeshi can work. I do not suggest that such a relatively gentle maneuver that requires considerable finesse will work in every situation, but I do think that every cop ought to know the technique well enough to apply it in lieu of something more harmful when circumstances permit. I have in fact taught kotegaeshi to a few POs, one of whom used to moonlight as a paramedic with me. Once he and I were on an EMS call together, alone in an apartment with a confused man who had just had a seizure. He was postictal (kind of like rebooting on a computer) and was very hostile. He was also young, strong and potentially very dangerous, especially since we were on his turf. Ken, my PO-moonlighting-as-paramedic partner, had the police on the radio and they were waiting downstairs, but he decided to trust my instincts and let me handle the guy, who initially kept getting up and making violent gestures, punching his palm, etc. I sent him strong verbal and nonverbal messages that we weren't going to hurt him, and I wanted to keep the guns and badges out of sight so he would't freak out. I managed to talk him into sitting down and letting me start an IV on him, and gave him meds (glucose, mostly) to straighten him out. Had the situation been allowed to escalate it might have turned into a freakin' mess. And I'll tell you what: how it DID turn out was, in very real sense, the result of Aikido. And of spirituality. In the day-to-day world, not in church. BTW, what are your demons?

Jim Maloney http://homepages.nyu.edu/~jmm257

[This message has been edited by Sweeney (edited 08-24-2003).]

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#110097 - 08/24/03 11:33 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
One of my main beliefs is that the pursuit of martial arts training and greater spirituality are not separate endeavors.

In fact, greater spirituality can be gained through correct principles in martial arts.

Repeating something over and over again with no resistance from your partners (something like kata) is going to have less of an impact on spiritual development than would be engaging a partner and actually finding out what you're capable of instead of theorizing what you "might" be capable of. I do not wish to hijack this thread however.

I think of martial arts as being experiential. If you are not experiencing what real martial arts is, you're only pretending to train. It would be like standing on the shore of a beach flailing your arms about attempting to know what swimming is like.

Or...you can get in the water and EXPERIENCE swimming.

ANY training with compliant partners is an excercise in dry-land swimming. Aikido is one such art.

Nuff said! Onto the next...

-John

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