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#110058 - 08/05/03 09:05 AM MA best for Law Enforcement
kawinning Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/05/03
Posts: 4
Loc: Los ANgeles, ca
I am looking to start a career as a police officer in the next couple of years and want to know what the best MA i could train in would be. I currently train in muay thai but have heard aikido and jui-jitsu are great for law enforcement personell. Any help would be appreciated as i am willing to put in the time to train in multiple disciplines.

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#110059 - 08/05/03 10:19 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Karate kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/07/03
Posts: 598
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kawinning:
I am looking to start a career as a police officer in the next couple of years and want to know what the best MA i could train in would be. I currently train in muay thai but have heard aikido and jui-jitsu are great for law enforcement personell. Any help would be appreciated as i am willing to put in the time to train in multiple disciplines.[/QUOTE]

I WOULD DEFINATLY TAKE AIKIDO OVER ANYTHING THERE IS!!!!!!!!!!!! ITS THE BEST. IT WILL SHOW YOU EVERYTHING THAT CAN HELP WITH LAW ENFORCMENT.

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#110060 - 08/05/03 10:20 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
kawinning Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/05/03
Posts: 4
Loc: Los ANgeles, ca
cool, thanks. I have heard a lot about Aikido for LEO. Do you think a form of jui-jitsu would also be beneficial?

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#110061 - 08/05/03 02:28 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Karate kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/07/03
Posts: 598
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kawinning:
cool, thanks. I have heard a lot about Aikido for LEO. Do you think a form of jui-jitsu would also be beneficial?[/QUOTE]

I wouldnt take jujitsu of any form for law enforcment, because it is STRICTLY ground fighting! Aikido is standing up and on the ground, you can do both.

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#110062 - 08/05/03 02:30 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Karate kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/07/03
Posts: 598
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kawinning:
cool, thanks. I have heard a lot about Aikido for LEO. Do you think a form of jui-jitsu would also be beneficial?[/QUOTE]

jujitsu is good though, if you want to get the boot by other people while ur on the ground.

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#110063 - 08/05/03 04:42 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Karate kid:
I wouldnt take jujitsu of any form for law enforcment, because it is STRICTLY ground fighting! Aikido is standing up and on the ground, you can do both.[/QUOTE]

Who says so.
Th Ju-jitsu I train in isn't.

JohnL

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#110064 - 08/08/03 04:29 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Choose whatever art suits you best, but I would advise either an art that is predominantly throwing, locking and pinning, such as aikido or judo, or alternatively a system of self defence that comes from a mix of such arts. but be warned, i am very biased toward such arts. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Striking arts are every bit as good, but as a proffesional police officer they will land you in trouble every time.

Budo

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#110065 - 08/08/03 10:10 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Karate Kid,

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is mainly ground fighting. Japanese Ju Jitsu is not.

Raul

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#110066 - 08/12/03 06:07 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
Choose whatever art suits you best, but I would advise either an art that is predominantly throwing, locking and pinning, such as aikido or judo, or alternatively a system of self defence that comes from a mix of such arts. but be warned, i am very biased toward such arts. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Striking arts are every bit as good, but as a proffesional police officer they will land you in trouble every time.

Budo
[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

Have you found that your MA study has complimented the stuff they teach at work?

Budo.

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#110067 - 08/13/03 03:47 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
Kawinning, I am a Criminal Justice major at Temple University and plan to become a police officer in the next couple of years as well. Aikido seems good because the locks and such can be done without actually injuring someone, but I currently study Judo...also, I'm in the Philadelphia area and many of the students in my club are Philadelphia police officers. With just some proficiency(sp) in Judo you can learn effective techniques to bring a suspect down and keep him/her there.
As it has been said also, do what is comfortable for you.

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#110068 - 08/14/03 10:29 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
msmith Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/14/03
Posts: 2
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kawinning:
I am looking to start a career as a police officer ...

Stick w/ Muay Thai. It is far more important to be fit, conditioned to take abuse and able keep fighting than it is to be able to control a subject. You should never be going hands-on alone as an LEO unless there is no other option. Take martial arts for survival skills and your own personal enjoyment. Anything you use in the way of techniques outside of the training sanctioned by your department will open you up to liability. You will be undertrained in physical techniques as a LEO, that is just a fact. Keep rooted in one style, any one style. Become an expert. Then seek out training that fills the gaps. K.I.S.

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#110069 - 08/14/03 11:57 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
eL Duce Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/03
Posts: 108
Loc: Philippines
in my opinion, aikido would be better than ju jitsu. coz in ju jitsu, as what i've heard, requires more flexibility and agility compared to the former.

aikido, simple.. but effective

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#110070 - 08/16/03 01:05 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
et Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 4
I would suggest you look into Krav Maga. I've been a police officer for 13 years and have studied a number of systems. Krav Maga covers any scenario you might face as a cop, and in my case I can say it also provides great overall conditioning benefits as well. Check out Kravmaga.com and Kravmagakc.com for additional info.

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#110071 - 08/19/03 08:49 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Remandman Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 64
Loc: Canada
I work in a jail as a correctional officer. I study Kyokushin Karate. We also have a few police officers in our school. My Sensai is an ex-cop and Kyokushin is used for the Tokyo police force.

Other good arts...Anything hands on, wrestling, boxing, Aikido, Jui-Jitsu, Judo, You name it, some knowledge in these will help you in a situation rather than no fighting experience.

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#110072 - 08/20/03 08:59 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
One little problem, Japanese jiu-jitsu doesn't work on a resisting opponent because it isn't trained that way. For the same reason, aikido does not work.

You want functional LEO tactics? Visit here http://www.isrmatrix.org/

Check out that site and forget about the other stuff (If you want something that actually WORKS when people resist!)

-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 08-20-2003).]

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#110073 - 08/20/03 09:02 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina

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#110074 - 08/20/03 10:44 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
et Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 4
The ISR Matrix system looks very interesting but I couldn't get the video clips to play. Which of their courses have you taken? I'm interested to know what it is about their system that separates it from others.

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#110075 - 08/21/03 11:51 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
immrtldragon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/22/03
Posts: 1540
Loc: Just outside Philadelphia, PA
I have to agree with Kogas on the idea of someone actually resisting...again I'll suggest Judo...the conditioning is great and the people you train with are not only resisting opponents, they are skilled resisting opponents.

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#110076 - 08/21/03 03:14 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Karate kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/07/03
Posts: 598
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
One little problem, Japanese jiu-jitsu doesn't work on a resisting opponent because it isn't trained that way. For the same reason, aikido does not work.

You want functional LEO tactics? Visit here http://www.isrmatrix.org/
Check out that site and forget about the other stuff (If you want something that actually WORKS when people resist!)

-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 08-20-2003).]
[/QUOTE]

YOUR FULL OF SHIT JKOGAS!!!!!!! AIKIDO "DOES!!!" WORK ON RESISTING OPPONENTS. I DUNNO ABOUT JUJITSU, I KNOW ITS NOTHIN BUT GROUND FIGHTING CAUSE I CHECKED IT OUT BEFORE, BUT IVE PROVEN THE FACT THAT IT EOORKS GREAT!!! ON RESISTING OPPONENTS!!! not to talk bad about a MA or anythin, cause all MA are great, but if judo works on resisting people, then AIKIDO SURE ENOGH THING!!!

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#110077 - 08/21/03 04:02 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
An interesting site John. I saw a few little "tricks" I shall definately be looking at closer.

KarateKid, could you explain your statement more clearly please. What evidence do you have that Aikido works against resistant opponents? Are you basing your thoughts on the practicalities of Judo?

Budo.

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#110078 - 08/21/03 07:27 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Anonymous
Unregistered


Jujistu is not just ground fighting. Brazilian jujitsu is ground oriented, other styles may also be, but not all of them.

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#110079 - 08/22/03 07:10 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Karate kid:
YOUR FULL OF SHIT JKOGAS!!!!!!! AIKIDO "DOES!!!" WORK ON RESISTING OPPONENTS. I DUNNO ABOUT JUJITSU, I KNOW ITS NOTHIN BUT GROUND FIGHTING CAUSE I CHECKED IT OUT BEFORE, BUT IVE PROVEN THE FACT THAT IT EOORKS GREAT!!! ON RESISTING OPPONENTS!!! not to talk bad about a MA or anythin, cause all MA are great, but if judo works on resisting people, then AIKIDO SURE ENOGH THING!!![/QUOTE]

Wow! What a raving lunatic you are. I'd suggest not leaving your medicine lying on the kitchen counter again and actually TAKE it next time, lol

Aikido does not TRAIN against resisting opponents. How do you expect to apply it against them? You won't have the timing or attributes necessary. Just because you "want" aikido to work, isn't going to make it happen.

For the REST of you willing to listen, I am involved with the SBGI which is the group that designed the ISR Matrix. Two of the head coaches behind the SBGI have been in law enforcement for a long time. Paul Sharp is still a cop in Chicago (in a bad neighborhood I might add) and has had to "pressure test" his technique on more than one occassion. Luis Gutierrez has been involved in law enforcement in Miami Fla. He and Paul are the head guys behind the ISR Matrix. It is the cutting edge of LEO tactics. Doesn't look ANYTHING like aikido does it?!

If you want info on the program, the best person to ask is Luis Gutierrez himself at www.onedragon.com

Also, check out: www.straightblastgym.com (the parent group).

-John



[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 08-22-2003).]

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#110080 - 08/22/03 07:50 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Sweeney Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 342
Loc: New York, USA
Hmmm...OK, JKogas, I won't go down the path Karate Kid did and leave myself open for those viciously grinning verbal attacks. So I've taken all my meds and won't make any offhand comments about your alleged fecal plenitude. But, hey, if aikido doesn't work when the opponent resists, is it all play-acting between cooperative pseudo-combatants? I do have some limited firsthand experience with aikido on the street. Some years back I rather easily took a razor from a fellow who was waving it at the police. The technique I used was kotegaeshi. He certainly did resist, but the resistance was brief precisely because the technique was effective. I have no experience with jujitsu and can't comment on that. I wish someone would jump in with a word from Tokyo as to what the Japanese police are doing. I really had heard that they were trained in aikido, at least in part. Oh, well, my meds are kicking in. Gotta go... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/IMG]

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#110081 - 08/22/03 08:23 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Ya know something...almost ANY technique under the SUN can work in it's own time. Some just have more frequent occurrence of working than do others. Some techniques are thus simply more high percentage than others.

We (if our lives depend on it) simply don't have the time to trying to perfect low percentage techniques when there is so much more out there that is higher percentage.

I choose to pursue what is provable against resisting training partners, rather than compliant training partners (as aikido practitioners are). Bad guys resist. The more skilled as fighters they are, the more your training had better reflect such scenarios.

I don't place a premium on taking candy from babies (martial arts techiques that work only against the unskilled). For this reason, aikido is OUT!

-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 08-22-2003).]

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#110082 - 08/23/03 09:03 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Sweeney Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 342
Loc: New York, USA
Here's something posted by Shotokan in the Aikido forum, under the thread "Karate Hard, Aikido Soft?" I'm not sure which "war" he's referring to. Does anyone know anything more about the Navy SEALS being trained in Aikido?

"...Why do you think Aikido was used so extensively in the war? Why do you think the US army and the Navy Seals include Aikido in their hand to hand training? Because it's been proven to be effective to them in real combat situations..."

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#110083 - 08/23/03 10:26 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Karate kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/07/03
Posts: 598
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sweeney:
Here's something posted by Shotokan in the Aikido forum, under the thread "Karate Hard, Aikido Soft?" I'm not sure which "war" he's referring to. Does anyone know anything more about the Navy SEALS being trained in Aikido?

"...Why do you think Aikido was used so extensively in the war? Why do you think the US army and the Navy Seals include Aikido in their hand to hand training? Because it's been proven to be effective to them in real combat situations..."
[/QUOTE]

I agree with you all the way sweeney, BUT...LOL... aikido is also what the hand to hand combat instructors at most police dept. teach!!!!

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#110084 - 08/23/03 11:53 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I have cops IN MY GYM! They all say that what is currently being taught in law enforcement regarding hand to hand SUCKS!

I recently posted about one of my students fights while on the job. Not ONCE during his fight did aikido come into play. At one point, his partner attempted a wrist lock and it DID NOT WORK!

Training now should be "alive" folks. All those with any amount of common sense (apparently lost among many traditionalists) will see the obvious benefits of such training.

The problem comes from the traditionalists methods of training against compliant partners. Bad guys are not compliant. Training will not be of ANY help against bad guys who resist if your partners do not resist! This is just common sense. There are better ways available now that weren't before. Change is inevitable. People must evolve or stagnate. It's your choice!

The SEALs that I know have NEVER used aikido during training. They don't have time for such training. Do you realize how long it would take to even BEGIN to become functional with aikido??? I've studied the art! SEALs simply have TOO much to do to focus on empty hand scenarios requiring such extensive training.

Also, consider what SEALs have to wear and carry with them. Imagine something like aikido which requires "fine motor skills" working while wearing a ruck sack and full regalia that must be worn (all while carrying an MP5). ANYONE with any combat experience knows that when the shit hits the fan, the first thing to go are the fine motor skills! That is what aikido is BASED upon and why it falls to pieces when needed!

-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 08-23-2003).]

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#110085 - 08/23/03 08:09 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Karate kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/07/03
Posts: 598
Jkogas, im sick of you putting down aikido, youve done on 2 diff posts. i come from a small town, but it has lots of MA's. Everyone in town is trying to take aikido. I want to know one thing, what MA do you take. I dont dont care about the MA's you used to take or formally have taken, I wanna know what MA art your taking now!?

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#110086 - 08/23/03 08:34 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I'm not putting down aikido so much as I am speaking the truth. If the truth is something you don't want to hear, you don't have to listen. You can just go bury your head in the sand and join the rest of the ranks of "pretend" martial artists out there. You will have PLENTY of company!

I train in Jeet Kune Do. Within that philosophy (it isn't a "style") you'll find training in boxing, savate, muay Thai, Greco-Roman wrestling, catchascatchcan, Brazilian jiu-jitsu and Filipino stick fighting. There's no aikido in there however because I like non-compliant partners! In other words, I don't do the stuff I do because I want to "Look cool", I want it to WORK!

I have made many a post on what and how I train. You should have known this already if you've actually been READING what people write!

-John

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#110087 - 08/23/03 09:35 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Sweeney Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 342
Loc: New York, USA
JKogas:

Let's go technique by technique. Let's take kotegaeshi, which is a wrist control technique I learned in the context of Aikido, although my Aikido teacher, who is now deceased, was also a 2nd Dan in a Japanese karate style (I forget which one). Anyway, I KNOW that kotegaeshi works against a resisting opponent because I've used it. As I said, I once took a razor away from an emotionally disturbed man using kotegaeshi when I was working as a paramedic in NYC. I also performed the technique in non-training situations against many others (unarmed), and in training situations I have practiced it effectively with opponents who were definitely not making it easy. I will admit that certain big bulky types that weigh 220+ pounds and have wrists the size of small tree trunks are not likely to be taken hold of effectively by someone of my 170-pound slender body type. But the guy with the razor was bigger than I and the fact that he wasn't expecting it made it pretty easy. There is also the consideration that, with proper maneuvering/centerline technique, one can (as one should) take the opponent off-balance and also be able to use two hands against his one. I find kotegaeshi to be a very effective technique at taking a small weapon (pistol, knife, etc.) from an opponent while still allowing control of the opponent without inflicting serious harm. Obviously, you have to be up close to do it, and the situations where I would (unarmed) actually approach such a person rather than keep my distance are few. As I said, I've only taken a weapon from someone on the street once that way, and that was because it was a professional (paramedic) situation. In most cases I would probably keep (or increase) my distance or, if properly equipped and justifiably required, take a safer (for me) albeit less restrained approach, e.g., retreat, a whack to the armed hand with the nunchaku, or a bullet to the head, depending, of course, on the circumstances. But I dabbled in Aikido in large part for the same reason I started young with the nunchaku: I wanted to be able to disarm an opponent armed with a knife without killing him or her. Ah yes, that reminds me: I did take a pair of scissors away from an angry inebriated girlfriend some years back in Puerto Rico using kotegaeshi, but prehaps that was, as you say, candy from a baby. In any event, in my humble opinion, kotegaeshi works.

Sweeney

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#110088 - 08/24/03 07:45 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Sweeney --

Ok, so you used a techique successfully. You said you took a razor from someone. Thats fine Sweeney...I could probably make it work against invalids, 15 year old computer geeks and maybe some drunken homeless people -- does that mean I still want to train it? Absolutely not! My premium is making my technique work against skilled, conditioned, aggressive, athletic, SOBER fighters! In that case, aikido is NOT going to work!

For those who think that they CAN make it work and would like a friendly testing ground, you're welcome to come into my gym and try it under friendly conditions and see for yourself:

We are located at:

Crucible Gym
5940 Germanton Rd
Winston-Salem, NC
27105

If you can make it work under vale tudo conditions, I will be the first to line up and shake your hand! I will also vow to become a student of the nearest aikido school and throw out everything I have learned from real performance based arts and wear the sacred hakama forevermore!

But that's not going to happen is it? NO it's not....

If I can make my technique work against the skilled fighters that I face, I KNOW I can make it work against the drunk and disorderly, and that's the difference. We only have so much training time in the day. Wouldn't you rather spend that precious time doing things that are higher percentage?? I know I do! Aikido, especially for law enforcement (and for the reasons I just specified) isn't going to make the cut my friend.

Welcome to the new world!

-John

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#110089 - 08/24/03 08:04 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Sweeney Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 342
Loc: New York, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
Sweeney --

Ok, so you used a techique successfully. You said you took a razor from someone. Thats fine Sweeney...I could probably make it work against invalids, 15 year old computer geeks and maybe some drunken homeless people...

...Welcome to the new world!

-John
[/QUOTE]

1. He wasn't an invalid, a 15-year-old computer geek or a drunken skell. He was about 200 pounds, mid-40s, muscular and emotionally disturbed. He was waving the razor at a bunch of rookie cops who were keeping their distance and had no idea whether to shoot him, call for K9 patrol or what. He had used the razor on himself and had tried to slash one of them when they got too close. I've also gotten complete control of two ex-marines (recent, not octegenarians or anything) in demo sessions using the technique, and neither was trying to be accommodating. The beauty of kotegaeshi is that one need not inlfict any serious harm to gain control of the opponent. There is something to be said for that, I think, if your job requires public service (as mine did) and maybe even something to be said for it in general.

2. What "new world" are you referring to? Do you mean the Western Hemisphere? If so, I was born here, almost 45 years ago, but thanks for the belated welcome. Or is it some reference to a "new world" where the old silly stuff like certain Aikido principles of peace and harmony no longer have value? Where we strive for quick and effective devastation capabilities with minimal training, cause, hey, who's really got time for anything more in this busy "new world"? I'll end with another quote:
[QUOTE]

What's so funny about peace, love and understanding?

-Elvis Costello
[/QUOTE]

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#110090 - 08/24/03 08:30 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
We're not talking about values here. We're talking about evolution within the context of training instead of relying on a century old propaganda.

If you want spirituality, go to church and live a spiritual life. Its also a great deal easier to be a spiritual being when our demons are confronted and conquered and we can thus grow beyond them. If our egos are thus confronted through the medium of athetic training, we create an avenue for growth. However...contrived training with compliant partners will not provide this same causeway.


-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 08-24-2003).]

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#110091 - 08/24/03 08:35 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]To secure peace is to prepare for war...

- Metallica
[/QUOTE]


-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 08-24-2003).]

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#110092 - 08/24/03 08:49 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sweeney:
Here's something posted by Shotokan in the Aikido forum, under the thread "Karate Hard, Aikido Soft?" I'm not sure which "war" he's referring to. Does anyone know anything more about the Navy SEALS being trained in Aikido?

"...Why do you think Aikido was used so extensively in the war? Why do you think the US army and the Navy Seals include Aikido in their hand to hand training? Because it's been proven to be effective to them in real combat situations..."
[/QUOTE]


I have two friends who are former SEALs. One is my Kenjutsu sensei, with advanced rank also in Judo, Daito Ryu and Shotokan. Both say that the hand- to- hand taught in the teams is Ju- jutsu based, and not very good. It's sort of an afterthought, done only when they've worked through all the ARMED portion of their training to exhaustion. Hence many SEALs train in MAs on their own time.



[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 08-24-2003).]

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#110093 - 08/24/03 09:05 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Sweeney Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 342
Loc: New York, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
We're not talking about values here...

If you want spirituality, go to church and live a spiritual life. Its also a great deal easier to be a spiritual being when our demons are confronted and conquered and we can thus grow beyond them...
[/QUOTE]

1. We ARE talking about values because we are talking about what sorts of measures police should take against citizens.

2. No offense, but I've never found much spiritual nourishment in churches, shuls and the like. Better to find a path that can be followed in every day-to-day action. IMHO.

3. Just what demons are you confronting?

(Nice Metallica quote, BTW)

And now:

[QUOTE]
And so it must be all a game of chess he's playing...but you're wrong, Steve...you see...it's only...solitaire.

-Ian Anderson (Jethro Tull)
[/QUOTE]



[This message has been edited by Sweeney (edited 08-24-2003).]

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#110094 - 08/24/03 09:31 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Before we all go off on tangents, let us all remember that we are talking about training.

We can talk about ideals such as what actions that police "should" take with citizens. However, when I talk with most police (such as the guys who are cops and members/students within my gym), they're more concerned with going home at night.
That's why we train in alive arts rather than "pretend" martial arts that don't work under duress.

Then, when they're at home, alive...they might be able to think about becoming spiritual. But when I think about it, they can study "dead" arts and become dead themselves when their training fails them ---thus becoming pure spirit! LOL


-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 08-24-2003).]

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#110095 - 08/24/03 09:35 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
As to demons....only the one's were born with and outgrow through proper training.

You HAVE worked through your's haven't you? Or are you the sole perfect being created without any???

Eh?


-John

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#110096 - 08/24/03 11:21 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Sweeney Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 342
Loc: New York, USA
Personal demons? Wow, didn't think it would get this deep. But one of my earliest memories relates to death on the street, so it's right on point. When I was five, my father was stabbed to death chasing down a guy who had been shaking down a bartender for protection money. My father wasn't a cop, but he decided he didn't like what was going on, and he and some others went after the guy. John Maloney caught him, took a surprise knife to the heart, and died almost immediately. Since then I've grown up seeking to be prepared against such things as the sudden knife attack and at the same time bearing in mind that when you kill someone you hurt others as well (like the kids the dead guy left behind). To me, martial arts and spiritual goals are inseparable: if this seems antiquated and outmoded to you, you are entitled to your opinion. As for police, I respect that they are putting their lives on the line and certainly wouldn't ask them to take additional risks just to be politically correct. I worked with lots of cops when I was a paramedic, and I've done a lot of informal training with state and federal agents who are friends or colleagues. On the street, I have seen cops overreact in some situations and underreact in others, and, more often, I've seen them react admirably and professionally. I have saved a few victims of police shootings (one totally unjustified against an unarmed cab driver, probably due to an acidental discharge while "covering") and have also taken injured cops to the hospital after MVAs resulting from overzealous responses to 10-13s ("cop in trouble" call in NYPD). Frankly, I would not want their job, so I certainly feel that some slack ought to be given to those who do it. But by the same token it is an important matter of public concern just what the police do and don't do to the citizens. I doubt you'd want them breaking down your door and putting a gun to your head to get a confession because someone accused you of something. These days I'm a lawyer and, unfortunately, I do see that a lot of violation of rights of the accused occurs all too frequently. This is a matter of concern for us all. But to get back to the point: kotegaeshi can work. I do not suggest that such a relatively gentle maneuver that requires considerable finesse will work in every situation, but I do think that every cop ought to know the technique well enough to apply it in lieu of something more harmful when circumstances permit. I have in fact taught kotegaeshi to a few POs, one of whom used to moonlight as a paramedic with me. Once he and I were on an EMS call together, alone in an apartment with a confused man who had just had a seizure. He was postictal (kind of like rebooting on a computer) and was very hostile. He was also young, strong and potentially very dangerous, especially since we were on his turf. Ken, my PO-moonlighting-as-paramedic partner, had the police on the radio and they were waiting downstairs, but he decided to trust my instincts and let me handle the guy, who initially kept getting up and making violent gestures, punching his palm, etc. I sent him strong verbal and nonverbal messages that we weren't going to hurt him, and I wanted to keep the guns and badges out of sight so he would't freak out. I managed to talk him into sitting down and letting me start an IV on him, and gave him meds (glucose, mostly) to straighten him out. Had the situation been allowed to escalate it might have turned into a freakin' mess. And I'll tell you what: how it DID turn out was, in very real sense, the result of Aikido. And of spirituality. In the day-to-day world, not in church. BTW, what are your demons?

Jim Maloney http://homepages.nyu.edu/~jmm257

[This message has been edited by Sweeney (edited 08-24-2003).]

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#110097 - 08/24/03 11:33 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
One of my main beliefs is that the pursuit of martial arts training and greater spirituality are not separate endeavors.

In fact, greater spirituality can be gained through correct principles in martial arts.

Repeating something over and over again with no resistance from your partners (something like kata) is going to have less of an impact on spiritual development than would be engaging a partner and actually finding out what you're capable of instead of theorizing what you "might" be capable of. I do not wish to hijack this thread however.

I think of martial arts as being experiential. If you are not experiencing what real martial arts is, you're only pretending to train. It would be like standing on the shore of a beach flailing your arms about attempting to know what swimming is like.

Or...you can get in the water and EXPERIENCE swimming.

ANY training with compliant partners is an excercise in dry-land swimming. Aikido is one such art.

Nuff said! Onto the next...

-John

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#110098 - 08/24/03 11:46 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Sweeney Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 342
Loc: New York, USA
Those WERE real-world exeperiences I was telling you about. Or did you think I was hallucinating everything?

Aikido is no more nor less "pretend" than most other MAs. You can train restrained punches and kicks and be helpless in a real fight, too. It all depends on what you do with your training. I've used an Aikido technique on the street, successfully, and I'm no advanced practitioner. By the same token, there are situations where Aikido techniques are totally inappropriate and the risk of being seriously hurt trying to apply them is far too great. I'm surely not pushing Aikido as the sole approach. I'm simply saying that cops ought to learn kotegaeshi well enough to use it when the situation permits. (They also ought to learn how to shoot, which is definitely NOT part of Aikido.)

As for the swimming metaphor, don't forget that part of learning to swim is learning to breathe differently.

Figure that one out... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#110099 - 08/24/03 11:47 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
HeadlessHorseman Offline
Member

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 36
Loc: Sleepy Hollow, NY, USA
Go jump in a lake Sweeney!
You too Kogas!

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#110100 - 08/24/03 12:21 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sweeney:
Those WERE real-world exeperiences I was telling you about. Or did you think I was hallucinating everything? [/QUOTE]

Never said that. I just think that fighting against unskilled opponents doesn't prove CRAP about one's real abilities....

[QUOTE]Aikido is no more nor less "pretend" than most other MAs. [/QUOTE]

I agree! That's why I don't train Eastern martial arts per se' -- their training methods are generally quite poor. You've made my point for me.

[QUOTE]You can train restrained punches and kicks and be helpless in a real fight, too. [/QUOTE]

That's been my point all along. You cannot train ANYTHING in a restrained manner and reasonably expect to be able to use it for real! Bad guys aren't restrained, so why should your training partners be?

[QUOTE]It all depends on what you do with your training. I've used an Aikido technique on the street, successfully, and I'm no advanced practitioner. [/QUOTE]

As I mentioned elsewhere, any technique can work given it's on "time" and if the opponent's skill level is poor. Some of these techniques "times" of success are rarer than are other more "high percentage" techniques. This is especially true when you factor in the skill level of the opponent! The higher the skill levels, the lower the chance of making an aikido technique work. That's just the truth of the matter. This is not open to debate. You can come to my gym and try it yourself -- all in a friendly manner of course. We have an open gym policy whereby we will roll and spar with anyone who comes into the gym, live, and in front of our students.

[QUOTE]As for the swimming metaphor, don't forget that part of learning to swim is learning to breathe differently.

Figure that one out... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]

But how better than by actually being IN the water???

I believe in being critical of, and questioning tradition and training methods. This is how we grow. I am simply being critical of and questioning training methods of traditional martial arts (aikido here in this thread) and martial artists.

Better still, we should all be willing to put our money where our mouths are, glove up (or leave them off if you prefer) and be able to DEMONSTRATE that which we believe so highly in and speak of.

If you or anyone else would like to see and even better, EXPERIENCE what I am talking about, the address of our gym is listed for all to see.

There are times to quit talking and start walking.

-John

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#110101 - 08/24/03 01:37 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
About "My Demons" (which I love sharing, btw)

My demons no longer exist as they once did. This is due to athletics and athletically trained martial arts.

I used to be a real chicken-shit when I was younger (teen-age years)! My GOD I was afraid of everyone who I perceived to be tougher than myself. But against those who I felt were inferior, you'd not find a bigger bully ANYWHERE!! LOL!

So, I started martial arts training. It was kyokushinkai (not the only TMA I've practiced, btw). I trained for quite a while. One day I asked my instructor if the sparring we did was actually the tool that would teach us to fight...he just looked at me funny and said nothing (he wasn't aware of the necessity for "getting in the water.....")

That martial art taught me a little but to be honest, I gained no real street fighting skills from it's study. I finally picked those up after beginning the study of Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do. It was through that, that I learned where real skills were developed.

After gaining some real "experience" (getting in the water) in fighting, through boxing, wrestling, Brazilian jiu-jitsu, shoot-wrestling, stick fighting, etc., I overcame the fear of combat and taking damage. It was only through application that I was able to do so however and NEVER came as a result of compliant partners offering little if any resistance.

Only through actually EXPERIENCING combat could I overcome the fears of it. This combat was against only skilled individuals and not barroom drunks too inebriated to tussle.

THAT is how I overcame my feelings of inferiority and weakness. I grew beyond that and am afraid of no human being. However, it was through actual combat that I came to respect what other humans could do to me. This again was through REAL fighting againt skilled opponents and not compliant partners assisting my every move.

Aliveness in other words, is the ONLY way to truly gauge what you can do and truly know what you're capable of doing. "Pretend martial arts" cannot have the same effect, and thus do not offer the same avenues for growth.

That is a summarized version of how I overcame MY demons. I'm not afraid to share it because I'm not the same person now that I was when I had them. Again, that is a testament to "alive", athletic training, against resisting partners/opponents.

No pretense there!

-John

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#110102 - 08/24/03 06:49 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Sweeney Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 342
Loc: New York, USA
Sounds good, John. Your points are all well made and well taken. I'll stop by at the Crucible if I'm ever in W-S, NC, but the odds of that are pretty slim. Funny coincidence: one of the dozen or so full-time medics I worked with for my full 8-year career was from there. Ben Shelton. Doubt you know him, though: he's even older than I am [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG], and probably left the home town when you were not yet a teenager, maybe not even born yet...

One last thought. I understand where you're coming fom, but can you say that kotegaeshi can NEVER work and is therefore not worth bothering to learn?

Jim

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#110103 - 08/25/03 03:51 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Sweeney --

I will mever say that a technique "cannot work" because I know the opposite is true. As I mentioned, any technique can "work". What I DO say is that there are training methods that are not as realistic or even efficient as others.

I don't have a beef with you Sweeney and I hope that my posts haven't given notion of that. This is the whole purpose of any internet forum.

Train hard and stay safe.

-John

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#110104 - 08/25/03 07:58 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Sweeney Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 342
Loc: New York, USA
No beef, JKogas. You take care, too.

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#110105 - 08/25/03 04:37 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Hey Sweeney --

I really appreciate the dialog! I think we did a pretty good job of making our points and keeping things civil. For that you have my utmost respect. I am certainly more willing to listen to someone who debates the way you do. And that was a great one.

Good luck with your training,
John

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#110106 - 08/28/03 07:53 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Sweeney Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 342
Loc: New York, USA
Thanks, John. I enjoyed it too.

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#110107 - 08/28/03 02:51 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
MorpheusRS Offline
Member

Registered: 08/28/03
Posts: 50
Loc: Israel
hey ppls, howcome noone in this forum talks about combat sambo? the art invited for law inforcment by ppl who need most law enforcment, the russians. and is considered the most effective martial art? thats wierd.. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#110108 - 08/28/03 08:15 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
MorpheusRS -- I know you love your sombo. That's alright. It's a decent art form. In the end though, fight training is fight training don't you think? It's not so much the "art" as it is how to art is TRAINED that makes it efficient, eh?

-John

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#110109 - 08/28/03 11:05 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
I admit that I didn't read the whole thread, but here's my two cents.

First off, I practice aikido. I'm still a beginner with a little over two years experience. I would not train in a style/system if I knew it to be bullshit. Are all the techniques that we learn useful "on the street?" Of course not, but niether are high kicks IMHO. There actually is a movement (in my dojo at least) to de-emphasize such techniques, at least amongst the people whom I practice with most often. One being a cop, the other a correctional fascility guard, but we'll get to them in a moment. And uke's aren't alway's compliant. That's a pretty broad misconception. While one is attempting to get down a move, sure, if nage does something right I'm going to comply to encourage them, so they get the feel of what the move is supposed to feel like. But in more free form/randori practice, I don't have the skill yet to pull off every move, some people just don't want to move some ways. But by stopping attacking and defending against my technique they leave themselves open for other techniques, or atemi into other techniques.

One of my sempai that I mentioned earlier works in corrections. He jokes that it's easy to take away a knife or a club, what's really hard is dissarming a syringe! In one occasion he had to, but it didn't look very aiki... he stuck it in the guy's leg and twisted the needle off. But the only time he got "court martialed" (okay, I know its not the military but I'm looking for the equivalent term) was during a training session, where a fellow officer tried to sneak on my fellow aikidoka. He extended his arm into a sayu like gesture and injured the guy. He was arrained (hey that's the term) and had to take a lie test to determine if he was using "tae kwon do." Good thing they call all martial arts tae kwon do, or else he wouldn't have passed the polygraph [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG].

But I understand your view JKogas. We all want to believe that what we train in is the best possible system. And I too will admit that there are more bad aikidoka's than good, but how different is that from any MA? All that I can say is that none of my friends, whether trained in MA's or not, questions me whether or not aikido works. It certainly doesn't look like it does in the dojo, but take one's balance and they're easy to throw.

Peace,
Joe.

[This message has been edited by Joe Jutsu (edited 08-28-2003).]

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#110110 - 08/29/03 04:25 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Doughnut Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 197
Loc: Mid-west, U.S.A
Aikido can be effective, or it can be crap. Some people train real, others essotaricly. Many LE agenciy advocate Aikido.
For most officers this is a poor choice because of the complexity of the art and stuff like getting stuck on trying to make pain complient subjects.( Dumb idea if you ask me)
It takes a dedicated and profecint artist who is cool cucumber when it comes time to rock for this art to be effective. However I argue though that every police officer sholud take a little Aikido and focus on The princibles taught more than the tequniques
I think those basics are quite brilliant and an be used in most any other art or sittuation

Doughnut

[This message has been edited by Doughnut (edited 10-22-2003).]

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#110111 - 08/30/03 09:29 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Karate kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/07/03
Posts: 598
Jkogas, im sorry for being immature on here. Im sorry. Thanks for the info on here though. I wanna talk about this some more if you want to, but im gonna take it down a tone. sry

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#110112 - 09/08/03 03:17 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
TruthHurts Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/08/03
Posts: 18
Interesting thread. As a law enforcement insider/ trainer, I have seen and heard many arguments about the selection of a martial art for police. Very few arts comprhensively address the needs of Law Enforcement and Corrections Officers. That is a sad fact.

Is that to say that a single move from Aikido cannot be effective during a street encounter? Of course not. But Aikido by itself is nowhere near sufficient to train officers in arrest & control tactics. The key word is "tactics". Tactics are not just how you use you skills, but when you use them and how you train them.

If your training does not resemble how people really resist and fight, and does not contain elements of aliveness and resistance, it will not be effective when you need it. Does that mean that an Aikido guy who doesn't train alive will not be able to win a fight? Again, of course not. But his Aikido training will not likely be a deciding factor. But that does not mean that Kickboxing or Full Contact Karate is the best style for officers? Remember, the police use of force model is about "control" AND self defense.

I have been fortunate enough to attend many LEO instructor courses, from Luis Gutierrez and Paul Sharp's ISR Matrix, Tony Blauer's SPEAR system, Royce Gracie's GRACIE system and my state's DT curriculum (largely Aikido based)among others. The systems with the most integrity were the ones that were pressure tested on a regular basis.

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#110113 - 09/08/03 03:28 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
TruthHurts Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/08/03
Posts: 18
ttt

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#110114 - 09/08/03 03:47 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
TruthHurts Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/08/03
Posts: 18
ttt

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#110115 - 09/09/03 08:25 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
rinpoche Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/13/03
Posts: 24
One little problem, Japanese jiu-jitsu doesn't work on a resisting opponent because it isn't trained that way. For the same reason, aikido does not work.

I train jujutsu against resisting oppnents and have had black eyes, bloody noses, sprains, muscle pulls etc to show for it. Not all schools calling themselves jujutsu train teh same way..

Have I trained with aikdio parctitioners who could whup my butt in a heartbeat - yes. Have I handled people with kickboxing, JKD, and Brazillian Jujutsu training who were tring to take my head off - yes.

The best art for any person is the one that they will stick with and get good at. Is it easier to get good at some arts faster - yes. Are there amazing benefits to studying austere traditional martial arts for 20 years that extend beyond being able to fight - absolutely.

And while I am very into self defense - that is not the totality of my art. Learning character, humility, and patience, and yes - non-violence are goals of mine.

I love the traditional martial arts and not because they will make me the next UFC champ, but because there is so much more than fighting there. But those are my goals and they are not any more or less valid than your goals.

To get back to the thread - Police officers need to be very careful about what they train in and practice these days. Every department, locality and state will have use of force rules - some very specifically ban certain techniques.

If you go to a school that teaches rear naked chokes, straight punches to the face, joint dislocations, neck breaking and eye gouges - just be aware that the very fisrt time you use any of that you are going to be in very hot water legally and professionally. I personally know a SWAT team member who was just cleared of charges (after about 6 months of sweating it out) for slamming a guy to the ground who grabbed his partner's gun.

That being said - most law enforcement defensive tactics programs that I have seen are pretty week and supplementing your training is a good idea.

Cops mostly need to be able to control without injuring, and pin. For my $0.02, supplementing with hard style jujutsu, aikido, and/ or judo are probably your best bets. And learn the pysiological implications of your techniques.

I don't really like punching arts for cops for a couple of reasons beyond the legal and profassional liability. There is at least one documented case of a police officer contracting HIV and Hepatitis C from punching a suspect in the mouth. Ever see a guy with fight bite? The most common injury to police officers in the field are broken hands - I know a lot of former street fighters who broke their hands numerous times as well.

It's a little hard to draw a weapon or cuff a suspect with a broken hand.

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#110116 - 09/10/03 04:20 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
TruthHurts Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/08/03
Posts: 18
One major consideration, no matter what you choose to study: The U.S. Supreme Court has held that no matter what you do or what you have been trained to do, an officer will be held only to a standard of objective reasonableness. That is, would a similarly trained officer have responded in a similar way, given the same or similar circumstances.

Your training will be scrutinized, no doubt. Knowing your rules of engagement is a good start.

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#110117 - 09/18/03 07:02 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
gurlpower Offline
Stranger

Registered: 09/18/03
Posts: 4
Loc: Madison, WI, USA
In my humble opinion, there is no one single best martial arts. For years I have cross trained and have found the combinations of styles to suit me best for every situation I encounter. I can adjust my style to counter the strengths and weaknesses of my oponent..... unless your an expert in one style, you can find yourself limited. For example, a person who is only trained in standing styles will be like a fish out of water when they find themselves on the ground.

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#110118 - 09/18/03 08:10 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TruthHurts:
If your training does not resemble how people really resist and fight, and does not contain elements of aliveness and resistance, it will not be effective when you need it. [/QUOTE]

Exactly! It's what I've been preaching about since I've been on this forum.

[QUOTE]I have been fortunate enough to attend many LEO instructor courses, from Luis Gutierrez and Paul Sharp's ISR Matrix, Tony Blauer's SPEAR system, Royce Gracie's GRACIE system and my state's DT curriculum (largely Aikido based)among others. The systems with the most integrity were the ones that were pressure tested on a regular basis.
[/QUOTE]

Great work there! I am affiliated with the SBG and currently train the ISR Matrix. To me, it's the way to go.

-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 09-18-2003).]

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#110119 - 09/20/03 11:42 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Anonymous
Unregistered


didn't read all the posts,so forgive if this has already been stated.

Aikido, judo are modified jujistu.Aikido founder modified jujitsu to make it less harmful to an attacker for spiritual reasons.Judo was modified to make it easier to learn w/o getting hurt and to enable it to be a sport. So in essence both are jujitsu, focus of training is different.

A good jujitsu school will teach you standing and ground techniques.They also teach strikes(atemi), usualy as a prelude to a lock. Jujitsu goal(if taught as martial art,not sport) is to cripple or kill your attacker. In the begining the techniques are worked on cooperative partners for safety reasons, as you gain greater skill, more resistance is offered by partner.

So the question is not will aikido,judo,jujitsu work since they are all basicly the same techniques but does how you train enable you to make it work?

Ps. Bjj is not all ground fighting, majority of focus is but there are plenty of standing techniques.

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#110120 - 09/29/03 07:07 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Sorry, I couldn't be arsed to read all the posts. Lots of opinion but little substance if you ask me. For my part, I have trained in aikido for a number of years, I have had to use it more often than I would've like to (for work that is) and I have found it to work, consistantly. If it doesn't work because of the poor training methods it's news to me... And, come to think of it, most of the people I've used it on. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Budo

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#110121 - 10/21/03 09:48 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Yojimbo558 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/00
Posts: 253
Loc: Marina, Ca. USA
Hi there,

Well some of the references to Jujutsu were quite amusing. There are over 800 different styles of Jujutsu alone.

Jujutsu is a great style and would be one of the things that I would recommend to you for pursuing a Law Enforcement career.

Someone had indicated that Jujutsu consists soley of ground fighting...it sounds like they were busy looking only at the Gracie's who focus on that.

Jujutsu is great because it deals with utilizing techniques against a non-cooperative opponent.

Someone else had made the comment that Jujutsu is inneffective since they knew someone who tried to innitiate a wrist-lock & it didn't work. Sorry, but an improperly executed technique doesn't mean it doesn't work. When dealing with joint manipulations you have to apply distractions ( i.e. strikes ) so as to enable you to initiate a technique.

If I were to just grab your wrist and attempt to take you down with a wrist lock ( kote gaeshi )...most likely you would deck the hell out of me. So when you make your attack I deflect and strike you elsewhere in order to create the opening and time for me to do the take down.

I would not recommend Aikido, while it is a great system it is a cooperative art. You will see many similarities in techniques & if you do one Aikido you can enjoy Jujutsu seminars & vice-versa...but Aikido is putting you up against people who both do not want to go to jail & if their dealing with something that could be facing a life sentence will be anything but co-operative.

I know a husband wife team from San Jose who're both police officers. One was a 5th Dan in Kenpo Karate & the other was a long time practioner of Wing Chung. They began studying Jujutsu after the Rodney King affair. Their reasoning was that they wanted to maintain their effectiveness & officer safety, while moving to a style that would give less of a show to the cameras.

Both of them have shared many harrowing stories regarding incidents where their jujutsu was responsible for their still being around and breathing.

Someone early on mentioned Boxing & the only reason I'm referencing that is because a Boxer's training is very cardio intensive. My point being you're smart to want to study a martial art as it increases the odds of your surving and returning home to your family & your loved ones. This is an investment in yourself. Whatever art you choose...make sure you have the cardio to back yourself up. Your training is worthless if you can't last long enough to either effect an arrest or in a worst case scenario hold on until backup arrives.

Best of luck to you in your new profession.

Eric L. Bookin

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#110122 - 11/12/03 02:15 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Oldwolf Offline
Member

Registered: 08/27/01
Posts: 71
Loc: Scotland
I have had a gander at lots of styles etc. and have found that Aiki techniques are effective if combined with a striking art, yes I know but atemi waza is rarely taught in aikido or judo these days, and most of the jujitsu I've seen in the last thirty years has been watered down competition orientated crap.
It should be a rule of thumb, any martial art will work if applied correctly, it becomes more important to train correctly in what ever system you choose.

Just on a side note two of my strong, handsome sons fly away tonight to a conflict in a hot country, hot LZ, I have tried to prepare them as best as I can, predominantly striking arts, this is not an experiment that can afford to fail.
God help them

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#110123 - 11/12/03 02:16 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Oldwolf Offline
Member

Registered: 08/27/01
Posts: 71
Loc: Scotland
I have had a gander at lots of styles etc. and have found that Aiki techniques are effective if combined with a striking art, yes I know but atemi waza is rarely taught in aikido or judo these days, and most of the jujitsu I've seen in the last thirty years has been watered down competition orientated crap.
It should be a rule of thumb, any martial art will work if applied correctly, it becomes more important to train correctly in what ever system you choose.

Just on a side note two of my strong, handsome sons fly away tonight to a conflict in a hot country, hot LZ, I have tried to prepare them as best as I can, predominantly striking arts, this is not an experiment that can afford to fail.
God help them

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#110124 - 11/14/03 03:43 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
No particular point to make, Old wolf, I just want to wish your sons good luck and a safe return.

Budo

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#110125 - 11/15/03 06:23 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Painbringer Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/14/03
Posts: 18
Loc: Buffalo, Ny USA
I am a Correction Officer in a maximun security prison in Ny state. I have been studying Nihon Goshin Aikido for about 3 years and can tell you it is very effective. not many people know about Nihon Goshin Aikido, its basiclly are harder more combative style, we incorperate kicks and strikes, and we dont train under the premis of not hurting your attacker. check it out at Aikidoinc.com

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#110126 - 12/31/03 04:25 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
John Sharpe Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 16
Loc: HERMOSILLO, SONORA, MEXICO
I HAVE BEEN A POLICE OFFICER FOR OVER 24 YEARS. I HAVE BEEN TRAINING IN BOTH AIKIDO AND JAPANESE JUJUTSU FOR OVER 45 YEARS. FROM MY EXPERIENCE THEY BOTH ARE PERFECT FOR ARRESTING TECHNIQUES. THEY BOTH WORK. REMEMBER, IT IS NOT THE ART, BUT THE PERSON WHO TRAINS IN IT AND USES IT.

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#110127 - 01/25/04 11:44 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'd say Aikido. (I am not in law enforcement) You guys needs and art that doesn't over committ you to the attack. You don't want to be tied up in a battle with alot of pressure (and jeapordize your safety). Aikido gives you control of the individual fast, so you can make the arrest fast and be over with it while staying safe.

As for this pretend v.s. non-compliance training. Compliance can be a safe assumption in some cases because the pain and skeleton control resulting from the lock will force the opponent to comply in some ways.

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 01-25-2004).]

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#110128 - 02/21/04 08:12 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
jdee2712 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/20/04
Posts: 10
Loc: Edinburgh,Scotland, UK
As an officer safety instructor in a police force in Scotland I would probably recommend any hands on based martial art. I would also make sure that you're fitness level is relatively high as no matter what your skill level in a martial art if you are unfit then you would find it difficult to respond to the threatening situations that officers have to deal with. Remember, many incidents that police attend start off quite calm only for all hell to break loose at a moments notice! A study showed that a persons optimum performance is acheived when their heart rate is between 115 - 145 bpm. 145+ and performance deteriorates. 175+ and it deteriorates rapidly! Peripheral vision is also shown to deteriorate over 145 bpm and under 80bpm.
If you are fit and have a low resting heart rate, when situations do arrise and your heart rate shoots up hopefully it will peak between 115 and 145 which would allow you to perform effectively.

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#110129 - 03/04/04 02:22 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Spanky-77 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/04
Posts: 176
Loc: Kansas City, MO USA
Verbal Judo!!! (LOL) I had to add a little humor. I would say stick with what you are comfortable with. As mentioned earlier if you start performing non-department approved techniques you could face disciplinary actions or even termination if you are caught. I would say a ground fighting technique because there are going to be times when you are going to have to fight to survive and get dog-ass mean because there are people out there that will not think a second to kill you when they get the chance. I work in the inner city in Kansas City, MO and you will run into people who are high on PCP and Crack but mostly alcohol and will want to fight. I'm currently interested in taking Krav Maga due to the counter techniques you may face in the field and many of the techniques I've already learned are very very similiar to what is taught in this MA. I would mostly say that you have to run most of them down and then fight with them so conditioning is of the utmost importance.

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#110130 - 03/05/04 03:35 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Aha, jdee, I would be very interested in your opinion of UDT's as an OST instructor. I've declined the chance of being an insrtructor because I think the job isn't at all interested in teaching "woodies" how to defend themselves and consequently the training is inconsistent, ill concieved and, in many cases, poorly taught (both to and by the instructors).

I've undergone OST instruction since it was introduced and so far I haven't done two years the same. Each year we are told the "old" way isn't any good any more and the "new" way is the best thing since sliced bread. When I joined, the job gave me a baton and told me to be very carefull when using it, now they give me two days a year training by barely qualified instructors in very poor techniques and tell me if I use anything else I could be in big trouble. I think I preffered the baton!!!

What are your views on it all?

Budo

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#110131 - 03/09/04 05:14 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
jdee2712 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/20/04
Posts: 10
Loc: Edinburgh,Scotland, UK
Dear Budo,
I have to admit I agree with most of what you are saying. The techniques taught are often inadequate but are supposed to be simple to learn and to easy to apply. I became an instructor because I had taught MA's and enjoyed that side of things.For me it was a natural progression.

The techniques are revised pretty much on a yearly basis and you will find that techniques are either dropped or new one's introduced (for a variety of reasons which are usually dictated by the CC). This is as frustrating for instructors as it is for officers and it does create confusion and frustration. Unfortunately we are all restricted to what techniques can be taught as CC's don't want their force to be seen as being too aggressive!
I personally feel that the biggest obstacle we face in the UK is ECHR as the concept of fairness to the accused will always put us at a disadvantage. The best advice I can give and the one thing I try to get over to all officers and that is it doesn't matter what technique you use, wether it be empty hand, CS, baton or handcuffs as long as you can justify it and say it was necessary, because as you and I both know that is exactly what a defence lawyer will attack with in court.
You are quite lucky to get two days refresher training. In my force we only get one day and that may be reduced to 4 hours!
I understand the concerns re. barely qualified instructors. I know in our force we have quite a high turnover due to cops changing dept's, etc, but instructors have to start somewhere and their confidence and teaching abilities will grow the more classes they take (if they stick at it that long!).
My own opinion of OST is that forces teach it for insurance purposes and for health and safety reasons. I think if CC's could get away without teaching it then they would.
I hope this answers a few questions for you.
All I can now say is grin and bear it. It probably isn't going to get any better!

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#110132 - 03/10/04 08:14 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Jujitsu!! For all the right reasons.

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#110133 - 04/27/04 09:13 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
bvermillion Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 6
I can't believe no one has mentioned hapkido. I couldn't think of a better art for subduing a criminal.And as far as seals training in akido. I have never heard of such a thing. My uncle who I live with is in the navy and was involved in special ops for a long time. He worked at JASOC and with the Seals in Germany and the only arts he mentioned were muay thai and judo. I had also heard paul vunak worked with the seals as well. But my uncle hasn't ever said anything about him or JKD. Most of the seals training isn't even martial arts based. It plays a very small role in there training.

[This message has been edited by bvermillion (edited 04-28-2004).]

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#110134 - 05/01/04 08:46 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Doughnut Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 197
Loc: Mid-west, U.S.A
Hapkido is a very applicable art for LE I agree. Regarding SEALS and Aikido I plead ignorance. There is however a famous progra that occured where I belive it was US army special forces were trained in the art. My understanding ofthat exersise is that it was not so much to instill CQ fighting, as much as it was to instill some of the Aikido ideas on Wariorship. The gentleman who taught the Special forces Guys, I cant remember his name wrote a book on the experiance, I cant remember the title.(I must bee moving on into my dottage.)Maybee it was something like "IN SEARCH OF THE WARRIOR SPIRIT." Anyways he is also the guy who the US Marine Corps asked to pick styles and teachers to borrow from for there so called"SEMPER FU" program.

Doughnut

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#110135 - 05/03/04 09:52 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
SheepDog Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/03/04
Posts: 6
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doughnut:
Hapkido is a very applicable art for LE I agree. Regarding SEALS and Aikido I plead ignorance. There is however a famous progra that occured where I belive it was US army special forces were trained in the art. My understanding ofthat exersise is that it was not so much to instill CQ fighting, as much as it was to instill some of the Aikido ideas on Wariorship. The gentleman who taught the Special forces Guys, I cant remember his name wrote a book on the experiance, I cant remember the title.(I must bee moving on into my dottage.)Maybee it was something like "IN SEARCH OF THE WARRIOR SPIRIT." Anyways he is also the guy who the US Marine Corps asked to pick styles and teachers to borrow from for there so called"SEMPER FU" program.

Doughnut
[/QUOTE]
There is a gentleman I have had the pleasure to work with named Cardo Urso who designed the Marine Corps current hand-to-hand system.
(On another note)
The real challenge, it seems, is that most people want the magic style/technique that will allow them to defeat all other styles/techniques in all situations. Not possible. In becoming flexable, styles risk losing the core philosphies/techniques that made them effective in the first place. How do we assemble the right tools in our toolboxs without losing track of the number of tools themselves, or how to use them? I suggest keeping it simple. Sambo+Boxing, BJJ+Muy Thai, Judo+Kempo, etc... Too many techniques/styles muddy the waters. JKD makes an attempt to incorperate the stuff that works, Krav Maga tries to keep the combat flavor, and many other fusion-hybrids also bring things to the table, but the user must be able to find the "tool" they need almost before they need it. Keep it simple, no time training is "waisted time", pick something and train it well.

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#110136 - 05/03/04 10:12 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
SheepDog Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/03/04
Posts: 6
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jdee2712:
As an officer safety instructor in a police force in Scotland I would probably recommend any hands on based martial art. I would also make sure that you're fitness level is relatively high as no matter what your skill level in a martial art if you are unfit then you would find it difficult to respond to the threatening situations that officers have to deal with. Remember, many incidents that police attend start off quite calm only for all hell to break loose at a moments notice! A study showed that a persons optimum performance is acheived when their heart rate is between 115 - 145 bpm. 145+ and performance deteriorates. 175+ and it deteriorates rapidly! Peripheral vision is also shown to deteriorate over 145 bpm and under 80bpm.
If you are fit and have a low resting heart rate, when situations do arrise and your heart rate shoots up hopefully it will peak between 115 and 145 which would allow you to perform effectively.
[/QUOTE]

I totally agree jdee. Studies have shown that fine motor skills (ie. Weapon Malfunction Clearing, Key Manipulation, Pressure Points, etc...) suffer when the user is experiencing an adrenaline dump. So any complicated strikes, kicks, pressure points or "Death Touches" are very difficult to pull off. A good example is watching high level Black Belts spar in competitions; regardless of the style, it all lacks the fancy techniques they perform in their kata/forms. Not because those techniques don't work. Because when the heart is thumping the fine motor skills diminish. One min of adrenaline feels like 3 rounds in the ring. Cardio and conditioning may be the most under-trained technique in any system.
As a LEO, any art/style that gives you the ability to control your subject while protecting you, the public, and yes the subject too, is good. Remember, when they take pictures of the subject, no matter how well you articulate the use of force justification, if he/she "looks" abused, the jury/public will believe THEM over YOU. Don't let that keep you from taking care of business, but use it to help you select what art/style you will use. Stay in shape.

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#110137 - 05/04/04 04:20 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Doughnut Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 197
Loc: Mid-west, U.S.A
Sheepdog,
Thankyou for you insight. I was in refering to the "semper fu" guy. I ment Richard Strozzi-Heckler. If intrested read the following.
Doughnut

A FEW GOOD MEN TRY THE MARINE MARTIAL ART, AND TAKE ON 2 GURUS
By GREG JAFFE
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
October 9, 2000

CAMP PENDLETON, Calif. -- Artillery fire booms from a nearby range. But in a dusty field, a dozen Marines sit motionless, eyes closed, breathing rhythmically.
Breathe. Boom. Breathe. Boom. Breathe. Boom.

After 15 minutes, the men spring to their feet. Asked what they're doing, Lance Cpl. Alex Pena barks out: "It's a concentration, breathing exercise, sir. ... We were meditating."

Meditating Marines are part of a new, made-for-the-Corps martial-art program starting this month on four bases that will eventually be mandatory for all Marines. The Corps is famous for its blood-and-guts training. The new Marine Corps martial art, however, is focused as much on the soul as it is on soldiering.

To earn black belts, Marines must master eye gouges and shoulder throws while also exploring their personal connection to Apache, Zulu and Spartan warriors. Sitting in a drab base classroom on government-issue folding chairs, 20 young men shut their eyes as an officer urges them to visualize themselves as Spartans at the battle of Thermopylae: shields locked, spears ready, vainly trying to hold back thousands of assaulting Persians.

These are odd times for the military and particularly for the Marines, who have always considered themselves the ultimate warriors. It's hard to maintain that spirit when they're far more likely to draw peacekeeping duty than to relive the battle of Iwo Jima.
Worried that the Corps could lose its edge, the Marines' commandant, Gen. James L. Jones, decided to create a new martial art to give his Marines a sense of "inner peace" even as they get in touch with their inner warrior.

Every martial art needs a sensei. To build the new program, Gen. Jones called on two such teachers. Richard Heckler, a 56-year-old psychologist, author and fifth-degree aikido black-belt runs his own dojo -- or martial-art studio -- for enlightenment seekers in Marin County, Calif. The general also grabbed Lt. Col. George Bristol, 42, a Marine infantry officer with a black belt in judo and a nose that has been broken so many times that it's way out of kilter.

For five summer weeks this year, 170 Marines gathered at Camp Pendleton to test the two programs. Dr. Heckler's group learned basic martial-art moves while striving also for inner peace through the mastery of a dozen "warrior values," including accountability, integrity and courage. Col. Bristol taught his Marines to fight with fists, bayonets and knives while he schooled the troops in their connection to ancient warrior cultures.

On a cool morning in September, Dr. Heckler's "ninja platoon," as it is known here, goes for a morning run. But it isn't the usual running-in-formation the Marines are famous for. Each man advances at his own pace, checking his pulse regularly to ensure it's an aerobically optimal 140 to 160 beats a minute.

When they finish, the ninjas sit together in a dusty field to do their breathing exercises and read a short paper on accountability prepared by Dr. Heckler. "When I am accountable, I see myself as the fundamental creative force in my life and am unwilling to delegate that role," the paper declares.

Cpl. Patrick Bishop, from Alder Point, Calif., with a blond crew-cut and a wad of chewing tobacco in his cheek, strides to the front to share his own struggle with accountability. "I used to say that person p----- me off," he says. "Now I realize I was just letting them p--- me off. I wasn't being accountable for my emotions." Later in the day, a smaller group of ninjas will gather to talk about what it means to be a warrior. They quickly decide it's someone who fights for what is morally right. One member suggests that Mother Theresa was a "warrior for God." The group nods sagely in agreement.

Between bouts of self-exploration, the young Marines, most of them between the ages of 18 and 23, pair up for "energy drills," each draping his arms around his opponent's shoulders, rocking back and forth trying to knock him off balance. "Basically, what we're doing here is exploring each other's energy," Cpl. Bishop explains, pausing to spit.
The ninjas are all converts to the Heckler way. "I learned more about myself in five weeks than I did in 24 years," says Cpl. Bishop. Sgt. William Hussey, an intelligence specialist from Panama City, Fla., nods. "That's so true," he says.

At the other end of Camp Pendleton, Col. Bristol's group goes through drills that have often left the men bruised and bloodied. These guys don't have a nickname, but their customized T-shirts read "One Mind Any Weapon." They spend dozens of hours mastering bayonet techniques and pounding each other with boxing gloves. For their spiritual development, they listen to lectures about Zulu warriors who toughened their spirit walking barefoot through fields of thorns and about the Spartans' defeat at Thermopylae. Col. Bristol is such a buff that he went to Greece three years ago to commune with their spirit. "I would have thrived as a Spartan," he declares.

The goal of the Bristol program, he says, is to give the Marines a sense of the fear -- and pain -- of combat, so they can surmount it. Fear was certainly rampant throughout training. Several of the men recall how the colonel closed in on them with a bayonet, stopping just short of their jugular veins. "I could kill you with a single thrust," he grunted, with the blade hovering. When Marines complained about another exercise -- they got pepper spray in the eyes -- he exploded. "Do you think the Spartans would be whining?" he demanded.

Gen. Jones says that the new program, starting with about 15,000 men this month, will combine the best of the Heckler and Bristol programs. He hopes that the training will be especially useful on peacekeeping missions, where Marines may have to disarm angry civilians with less than lethal force. "In today's world, it is the organized and disciplined mind that will survive," he says.

The new martial art will also become part of the Marines' recruiting pitch. One poster, unveiled last week, plays on the program's Eastern roots: "Marine Martial Art: You'll Bow to No One." A second pitch is an even more succinct challenge to the next generation of warriors. Showing a Marine wearing camouflage and a black belt, it reads, "This Belt Isn't Standard Issue."

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#110138 - 05/10/04 01:44 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
SheepDog Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/03/04
Posts: 6
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doughnut:
Sheepdog,
Thankyou for you insight. I was in refering to the "semper fu" guy. I ment Richard Strozzi-Heckler. If intrested read the following.
Doughnut
Cardo Urso worked with Bristol, but since he was "enlisted" and not an "officer" I think he isn't mentioned as much (opinion from my mouth not Cardo's). If you Google "Cardo Urso" you will see.
Here is a little blurb from (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2001-03-08-marines.htm)

"Many other Marines stationed on the Japanese island have studied Okinawa's ancient form of karate during their off-hours. Among those who have mastered Okinawan karate are Bristol and his chief trainer, Master Gunnery Sgt. Cardo Urso, who says he holds several black belts in various martial arts.

Bristol, Urso and a platoon of consultants have developed a system for the Marines that borrows from more than a dozen martial arts. They include karate, judo, jujitsu, aikido and arts that use swords, spears and other weapons".

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#110139 - 06/22/04 02:59 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
reaperblack Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/30/04
Posts: 558
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
ok, this was a lot of reading to get very little useful info, first let me say I am not a cop. I have been a bouncer, a wrestler, and a pro ma, but never a cop. I have done martial arts for most of my 28 years on earth. Aikido, jujitsu, tkd, hapkido, jeet kune do, jun fan, kali, karate, shoot fighting, greco roman, brazillian jujitsu, wing chun, tai chi, ninjitsu, and kung fu. I have done at least a little in all of these, some areas of more concentration than others, of course. What I have found is that there are martial arts that suit certain body types better than others, and there are better martial artists than others. Essentially the body mechanics that you will learn in most styles are the same. Aikido is not only done in complete cooperation, at least not where i did it, and it certainly isn't done slowly. Aikido teaches you how to redirect your opponent, some people can't do this, and so their techniques fail, and then they think that all circular or soft styles don't work.
Not so, some people don't train enough, some instructors teach too many variations. This is not the fault of the style. This is the fault of a person. I am not saying that aikido is perfect, no style is. But aikido is something which you should learn after you have done another martial art. When you understand how the human body works. The entries from aikido are hard to beat, if you know how to do them correctly, but too many people have sloppy form. If you can't destabilize your opponent you can't throw him, it doesn't matter what style you use. circular steps are the key to defence, if you can learn how to do these quickly you won't get hit. Above and beyond that, where the head goes the body must follow. There i just taught you how to throw anyone, that wasn't so hard was it, and you didn't need a partner, I don't care if he resists or not.

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#110140 - 06/22/04 03:01 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
reaperblack Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/30/04
Posts: 558
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
ok, this was a lot of reading to get very little useful info, first let me say I am not a cop. I have been a bouncer, a wrestler, and a pro ma, but never a cop. I have done martial arts for most of my 28 years on earth. Aikido, jujitsu, tkd, hapkido, jeet kune do, jun fan, kali, karate, shoot fighting, greco roman, brazillian jujitsu, wing chun, tai chi, ninjitsu, and kung fu. I have done at least a little in all of these, some areas of more concentration than others, of course. What I have found is that there are martial arts that suit certain body types better than others, and there are better martial artists than others. Essentially the body mechanics that you will learn in most styles are the same. Aikido is not only done in complete cooperation, at least not where i did it, and it certainly isn't done slowly. Aikido teaches you how to redirect your opponent, some people can't do this, and so their techniques fail, and then they think that all circular or soft styles don't work.
Not so, some people don't train enough, some instructors teach too many variations. This is not the fault of the style. This is the fault of a person. I am not saying that aikido is perfect, no style is. But aikido is something which you should learn after you have done another martial art. When you understand how the human body works. The entries from aikido are hard to beat, if you know how to do them correctly, but too many people have sloppy form. If you can't destabilize your opponent you can't throw him, it doesn't matter what style you use. circular steps are the key to defence, if you can learn how to do these quickly you won't get hit. Above and beyond that, where the head goes the body must follow. There i just taught you how to throw anyone, that wasn't so hard was it, and you didn't need a partner, I don't care if he resists or not.

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#110141 - 06/22/04 03:03 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
reaperblack Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/30/04
Posts: 558
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
ok, this was a lot of reading to get very little useful info, first let me say I am not a cop. I have been a bouncer, a wrestler, and a pro ma, but never a cop. I have done martial arts for most of my 28 years on earth. Aikido, jujitsu, tkd, hapkido, jeet kune do, jun fan, kali, karate, shoot fighting, greco roman, brazillian jujitsu, wing chun, tai chi, ninjitsu, and kung fu. I have done at least a little in all of these, some areas of more concentration than others, of course. What I have found is that there are martial arts that suit certain body types better than others, and there are better martial artists than others. Essentially the body mechanics that you will learn in most styles are the same. Aikido is not only done in complete cooperation, at least not where i did it, and it certainly isn't done slowly. Aikido teaches you how to redirect your opponent, some people can't do this, and so their techniques fail, and then they think that all circular or soft styles don't work.
Not so, some people don't train enough, some instructors teach too many variations. This is not the fault of the style. This is the fault of a person. I am not saying that aikido is perfect, no style is. But aikido is something which you should learn after you have done another martial art. When you understand how the human body works. The entries from aikido are hard to beat, if you know how to do them correctly, but too many people have sloppy form. If you can't destabilize your opponent you can't throw him, it doesn't matter what style you use. circular steps are the key to defence, if you can learn how to do these quickly you won't get hit. Above and beyond that, where the head goes the body must follow. There i just taught you how to throw anyone, that wasn't so hard was it, and you didn't need a partner, I don't care if he resists or not.

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#110142 - 06/22/04 09:13 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Anonymous
Unregistered


Not so, some people don't train enough, some instructors teach too many variations. This is not the fault of the style. This is the fault of a person. I am not saying that aikido is perfect, no style is. But aikido is something which you should learn after you have done another martial art.

And there you have one of the primary reasons that Aikido is not an effective program for Law Enforcement. Minimal available training time and low standards.

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#110143 - 06/22/04 02:13 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Anonymous
Unregistered


KarateKid and JKogas your are both confused. You are allowing you're love of a particular system close your mind. Karate, There are two forms of Ju Jitsu, Brazilian and Japanese. Brazilian is almost exclusivley ground while most of japanese is standing joint manipulations. JKogas Ikr is apparently close to krav Magra in the fact that it is a system that uses techniques from other systems that worked for the situations that the designer found himself in. no one system is better than another. warriors are what make the system work or fail. Don't be ridged in your thinking or your fighting. Read some of Bruce Lee's teachings to understand more of what I'm talking. Oh just incase your wondering my creds. I serve in the army, I have studied muay thai for almost 10 years, and hold a 1st dan in tae kwon do. I have also study other systems to observe their strengths and weakness's. Oh and all the Aikido bashing I saw in this forum, Aikido will work when an opponet wants to resist, to overcome this part of almost all the techniques in akido or any other style where the goal is to control your opponent's body is to throw them off balance. Thank you for your time.

Ronin

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#110144 - 06/22/04 04:19 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
ronin801:

I do not "love" any particular system. I do not have a set "style" that is my favorite. I do not BELIEVE in "styles". I train only in arts that practice against live, resisting partners/opponents. That is a much the case now as it was way back when I originally responded to this thread.

I have trained in aikido and quite honestly, the way most schools train, is a joke. Sorry if you find that offensive. I see more offense in not speaking the truth.


-John

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#110145 - 06/22/04 10:13 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Anonymous
Unregistered


MA systems are generally inadequate and inappropriate for LE, period. Thus the "which MA is best for Law Enforcement?" question that keeps popping up is a pointless argument. The fact is that very few if any MAs are best for LE.

A specialized training program is needed for LE/ Corrections. Gross motor, trained with progressive resistance, in accordance with Rules of Engagement SOPs, reasonable and justifiable, etc. There are very few programs that meet all of these requirements.

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#110146 - 09/29/04 02:23 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Anonymous
Unregistered


ANY training with compliant partners is an excercise in dry-land swimming. Aikido is one such art.

Nuff said! Onto the next...

-John[/QUOTE]

i couldnt agree with you more john, strange coming from me....ive been training in aikido for the last 8 years, fortunatley ive had the privalege to be with a practical school of thought probably more in common with aikijutsu, tho i train bjj too. The amount of aikido seminars ive been to with "rainbow warriors" (someone elses phrase on here not mine, it just sums up my point perfectly:-) who fall at the slightest touch and expect you to run around after them while they do a so called technique.

Is it just in aikido circles that there seem to be so many clubs that dont teach the real martial aspects? The thing is, aikido is divided into several schools of thought, some focusing on sport, others philosophy and spiritualism.does this phenomenon occure in other martial arts?
There seem to be a lot of hippy new age aiki dojos around that think they can "harmonise" with the 6'5 18 stone rapist who wants to kill you.

i checked out the video clips you posted links to and i saw a few aikido techniques in there, theres an iriminage, kaitenage and what looks like a koshi nage! maybe youve had some bad experiences with some other dojos, but dont assume ALL aikido dojos train in a namby pamby way! regards, gareth

ps, there seems to be a little debate of the effectiveness of kotegaeshi underlying this topic, if the opponents popeye, for gods sake do something else lol.

pps great topic and interesting reading btw your training over at matrix looks great, do you guys do courses over here in england?!

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#110147 - 09/29/04 01:04 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Anonymous
Unregistered


You need to seek out "Copkido" (PDS) Progressive Defensive System - Shawn Marando of the Boston PD...

He has a complete system street provin and tested techniques that are legal to use on the street against assalants or resisting badguys.

His traditional Styles consist of American Traditional HapKiDo 5th Dan, KunTao, Silat & Kali,

He has this system purley for police, military, security bodygaurd personel here is his email if your interested, I know he host seminars and loves his martial arts and is very willing to work with anyone who is willing to learn. copkido@yahoo.com />
In any note he my masters first black belt in america for Hapkido. And he comes up to visit us usually once per year to kick our buts and pass his style and theories apon us. and Fishing.

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#110148 - 10/11/04 10:19 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Doughnut Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 197
Loc: Mid-west, U.S.A
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ajacks:
You need to seek out "Copkido" (PDS) Progressive Defensive System - Shawn Marando of the Boston PD...

He has a complete system street provin and tested techniques that are legal to use on the street against assalants or resisting badguys.

His traditional Styles consist of American Traditional HapKiDo 5th Dan, KunTao, Silat & Kali,

He has this system purley for police, military, security bodygaurd personel here is his email if your interested, I know he host seminars and loves his martial arts and is very willing to work with anyone who is willing to learn. copkido@yahoo.com />
In any note he my masters first black belt in america for Hapkido. And he comes up to visit us usually once per year to kick our buts and pass his style and theories apon us. and Fishing.

[/QUOTE]
"copkido"?... "American TRADITIONAL Hapkido"? God help us I cant speak to the arts themselves but can the names get any more ridiculas? I can't belive they would even be effecive advertising for the arts mentioned. Grotesque!

Doughnut

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#110149 - 10/12/04 04:41 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Anonymous
Unregistered


While I have no first hand knowledge of Copkido, the name implies a strong origin from a single parent MA, which could be a problem.

The idea of a "technique" being legal and thus suitable for police is rather simplistic and misguided. Techniques being "legal" is relative to the given circumstances.

Another reason why Martial Arts are not necessarily the answer for cops.

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#110150 - 10/29/04 09:31 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have to add my two cents to this crap. As a former police officer I can tell you that Aikido will not do all the tricks in Law Enforcement. It is a fact that 90% of arrest go to the ground trust me I have been there. Aikido does have just alittle art on the ground. The most modern day police training I have seen use a art called Aiki-Jitsu. As you can see it takes the arm dominant and goose necks of the hand from Aikido and then employs the ground game of Jiu-Jitsu. I donít want to sound like a no it all but I have access to a lot of academyís all around the U.S. and in the Government, so I do know a lot about what is being taught these days.

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#110151 - 11/04/04 05:31 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Anonymous
Unregistered


systema
krav maga
kenjute

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#110152 - 11/24/04 06:08 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Anonymous
Unregistered


to my opinion the best law enforcement MA
would be TKD, jiu-jutsu, aikido, judo/greco roman wrestling, and/or hapkido.
I hope this helped. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

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#110153 - 03/16/05 10:37 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
Choose whatever art suits you best, but I would advise either an art that is predominantly throwing, locking and pinning, such as aikido or judo, or alternatively a system of self defence that comes from a mix of such arts. but be warned, i am very biased toward such arts. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Striking arts are every bit as good, but as a proffesional police officer they will land you in trouble every time.

Budo
[/QUOTE]

I agree to what you say, man. Because the arts fit to your body systems

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#110154 - 03/26/05 05:48 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by kawinning:
I am looking to start a career as a police officer in the next couple of years and want to know what the best MA i could train in would be. I currently train in muay thai but have heard aikido and jui-jitsu are great for law enforcement personell. Any help would be appreciated as i am willing to put in the time to train in multiple disciplines.[/QUOTE]

Kawinning,

There has been some sound advice and some rambling.

For the past 17 years I have been involved with LEO & Security as a Deputy Sheriff, Prison Correctional Officer, Jail Correctional Officer, Body Guard, Security Guard, Security Consultant, Bouncer and now a Surveillance Agent so I know what works and what doesn't on the streets!

What is being taught to LEO from state to state varies and is mostly politically motivated by who knows who and what will keep the general public from thinking all LEO techniques are like the Rodney King incident!

So most of the powers that be will choose non-aggressive looking techniques from such styles as Aikido. It does not mean that the style they choose is the best for self-defense but best for the politicians to try and avoid negative publicity and law suites. That is why most LEO's train in some sort of fighting style on their own.

I think Florida Law Enforcement academies have a descent Defensive Tactics program because they did some research and put together a board of experienced LEO self defense instructors to come up with their Defensive Tactics Course who borrowed techniques from many different styles.

With that said as an experienced combat fighting instructor I can say that 3/4 of the graduates once out on the streets can't apply any of it because the course is to short and they did not continue to practice what they learned. So after their first real hand to hand encounter they search out the first martial arts school they can find only to once again be disappointed when the time comes to apply their ultimate martial art techniques.

Someone who has never experienced a 6í4 265 pound convicted felon on a cocaine/steroid rage or something similar doesnít have a clue to what real self-protection is all about. Pain compliance techniques will not work, as for locks & holds you will not be strong enough to administer nor will the technique itself just magically work as it does in the Dojo.

So my advice to you would be to keep up with the Muay Thai or try to find a Silat instructor near you and/or train in something similar to the ISR Matrix system, which there are a lot of them out there for LEO.

So in conclusion concentrate on Learning to fight the tough SOBís and learn the compliance locks & holds at the academy for the less formidable foes.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

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#110155 - 04/28/05 10:50 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Anonymous
Unregistered


i agree wit karate kid. with aikido you dont use excessive force and the person wont really be able to overpower u. With aikido you can manipulate them into handcuffing postions.

I wouldn't do tae kwon do. no offense, just because it is more of striking and if they can take the hit then your screwed unless you use a kick to the crotch.

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#110156 - 04/28/05 04:10 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by warriormonk:
i agree wit karate kid. with aikido you dont use excessive force and the person wont really be able to overpower u. With aikido you can manipulate them into handcuffing postions.

I wouldn't do tae kwon do. no offense, just because it is more of striking and if they can take the hit then your screwed unless you use a kick to the crotch.
[/QUOTE]


Ok. Do you have professional experience in Law Enforcement, Corrections or Security work on which to base this opinion or does his idea just "sound good"?

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