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#110128 - 02/21/04 08:12 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
jdee2712 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/20/04
Posts: 10
Loc: Edinburgh,Scotland, UK
As an officer safety instructor in a police force in Scotland I would probably recommend any hands on based martial art. I would also make sure that you're fitness level is relatively high as no matter what your skill level in a martial art if you are unfit then you would find it difficult to respond to the threatening situations that officers have to deal with. Remember, many incidents that police attend start off quite calm only for all hell to break loose at a moments notice! A study showed that a persons optimum performance is acheived when their heart rate is between 115 - 145 bpm. 145+ and performance deteriorates. 175+ and it deteriorates rapidly! Peripheral vision is also shown to deteriorate over 145 bpm and under 80bpm.
If you are fit and have a low resting heart rate, when situations do arrise and your heart rate shoots up hopefully it will peak between 115 and 145 which would allow you to perform effectively.

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#110129 - 03/04/04 02:22 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Spanky-77 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/04
Posts: 176
Loc: Kansas City, MO USA
Verbal Judo!!! (LOL) I had to add a little humor. I would say stick with what you are comfortable with. As mentioned earlier if you start performing non-department approved techniques you could face disciplinary actions or even termination if you are caught. I would say a ground fighting technique because there are going to be times when you are going to have to fight to survive and get dog-ass mean because there are people out there that will not think a second to kill you when they get the chance. I work in the inner city in Kansas City, MO and you will run into people who are high on PCP and Crack but mostly alcohol and will want to fight. I'm currently interested in taking Krav Maga due to the counter techniques you may face in the field and many of the techniques I've already learned are very very similiar to what is taught in this MA. I would mostly say that you have to run most of them down and then fight with them so conditioning is of the utmost importance.

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#110130 - 03/05/04 03:35 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Aha, jdee, I would be very interested in your opinion of UDT's as an OST instructor. I've declined the chance of being an insrtructor because I think the job isn't at all interested in teaching "woodies" how to defend themselves and consequently the training is inconsistent, ill concieved and, in many cases, poorly taught (both to and by the instructors).

I've undergone OST instruction since it was introduced and so far I haven't done two years the same. Each year we are told the "old" way isn't any good any more and the "new" way is the best thing since sliced bread. When I joined, the job gave me a baton and told me to be very carefull when using it, now they give me two days a year training by barely qualified instructors in very poor techniques and tell me if I use anything else I could be in big trouble. I think I preffered the baton!!!

What are your views on it all?

Budo

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#110131 - 03/09/04 05:14 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
jdee2712 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/20/04
Posts: 10
Loc: Edinburgh,Scotland, UK
Dear Budo,
I have to admit I agree with most of what you are saying. The techniques taught are often inadequate but are supposed to be simple to learn and to easy to apply. I became an instructor because I had taught MA's and enjoyed that side of things.For me it was a natural progression.

The techniques are revised pretty much on a yearly basis and you will find that techniques are either dropped or new one's introduced (for a variety of reasons which are usually dictated by the CC). This is as frustrating for instructors as it is for officers and it does create confusion and frustration. Unfortunately we are all restricted to what techniques can be taught as CC's don't want their force to be seen as being too aggressive!
I personally feel that the biggest obstacle we face in the UK is ECHR as the concept of fairness to the accused will always put us at a disadvantage. The best advice I can give and the one thing I try to get over to all officers and that is it doesn't matter what technique you use, wether it be empty hand, CS, baton or handcuffs as long as you can justify it and say it was necessary, because as you and I both know that is exactly what a defence lawyer will attack with in court.
You are quite lucky to get two days refresher training. In my force we only get one day and that may be reduced to 4 hours!
I understand the concerns re. barely qualified instructors. I know in our force we have quite a high turnover due to cops changing dept's, etc, but instructors have to start somewhere and their confidence and teaching abilities will grow the more classes they take (if they stick at it that long!).
My own opinion of OST is that forces teach it for insurance purposes and for health and safety reasons. I think if CC's could get away without teaching it then they would.
I hope this answers a few questions for you.
All I can now say is grin and bear it. It probably isn't going to get any better!

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#110132 - 03/10/04 08:14 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Jujitsu!! For all the right reasons.

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#110133 - 04/27/04 09:13 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
bvermillion Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 6
I can't believe no one has mentioned hapkido. I couldn't think of a better art for subduing a criminal.And as far as seals training in akido. I have never heard of such a thing. My uncle who I live with is in the navy and was involved in special ops for a long time. He worked at JASOC and with the Seals in Germany and the only arts he mentioned were muay thai and judo. I had also heard paul vunak worked with the seals as well. But my uncle hasn't ever said anything about him or JKD. Most of the seals training isn't even martial arts based. It plays a very small role in there training.

[This message has been edited by bvermillion (edited 04-28-2004).]

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#110134 - 05/01/04 08:46 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Doughnut Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 197
Loc: Mid-west, U.S.A
Hapkido is a very applicable art for LE I agree. Regarding SEALS and Aikido I plead ignorance. There is however a famous progra that occured where I belive it was US army special forces were trained in the art. My understanding ofthat exersise is that it was not so much to instill CQ fighting, as much as it was to instill some of the Aikido ideas on Wariorship. The gentleman who taught the Special forces Guys, I cant remember his name wrote a book on the experiance, I cant remember the title.(I must bee moving on into my dottage.)Maybee it was something like "IN SEARCH OF THE WARRIOR SPIRIT." Anyways he is also the guy who the US Marine Corps asked to pick styles and teachers to borrow from for there so called"SEMPER FU" program.

Doughnut

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#110135 - 05/03/04 09:52 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
SheepDog Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/03/04
Posts: 6
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doughnut:
Hapkido is a very applicable art for LE I agree. Regarding SEALS and Aikido I plead ignorance. There is however a famous progra that occured where I belive it was US army special forces were trained in the art. My understanding ofthat exersise is that it was not so much to instill CQ fighting, as much as it was to instill some of the Aikido ideas on Wariorship. The gentleman who taught the Special forces Guys, I cant remember his name wrote a book on the experiance, I cant remember the title.(I must bee moving on into my dottage.)Maybee it was something like "IN SEARCH OF THE WARRIOR SPIRIT." Anyways he is also the guy who the US Marine Corps asked to pick styles and teachers to borrow from for there so called"SEMPER FU" program.

Doughnut
[/QUOTE]
There is a gentleman I have had the pleasure to work with named Cardo Urso who designed the Marine Corps current hand-to-hand system.
(On another note)
The real challenge, it seems, is that most people want the magic style/technique that will allow them to defeat all other styles/techniques in all situations. Not possible. In becoming flexable, styles risk losing the core philosphies/techniques that made them effective in the first place. How do we assemble the right tools in our toolboxs without losing track of the number of tools themselves, or how to use them? I suggest keeping it simple. Sambo+Boxing, BJJ+Muy Thai, Judo+Kempo, etc... Too many techniques/styles muddy the waters. JKD makes an attempt to incorperate the stuff that works, Krav Maga tries to keep the combat flavor, and many other fusion-hybrids also bring things to the table, but the user must be able to find the "tool" they need almost before they need it. Keep it simple, no time training is "waisted time", pick something and train it well.

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#110136 - 05/03/04 10:12 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
SheepDog Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/03/04
Posts: 6
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jdee2712:
As an officer safety instructor in a police force in Scotland I would probably recommend any hands on based martial art. I would also make sure that you're fitness level is relatively high as no matter what your skill level in a martial art if you are unfit then you would find it difficult to respond to the threatening situations that officers have to deal with. Remember, many incidents that police attend start off quite calm only for all hell to break loose at a moments notice! A study showed that a persons optimum performance is acheived when their heart rate is between 115 - 145 bpm. 145+ and performance deteriorates. 175+ and it deteriorates rapidly! Peripheral vision is also shown to deteriorate over 145 bpm and under 80bpm.
If you are fit and have a low resting heart rate, when situations do arrise and your heart rate shoots up hopefully it will peak between 115 and 145 which would allow you to perform effectively.
[/QUOTE]

I totally agree jdee. Studies have shown that fine motor skills (ie. Weapon Malfunction Clearing, Key Manipulation, Pressure Points, etc...) suffer when the user is experiencing an adrenaline dump. So any complicated strikes, kicks, pressure points or "Death Touches" are very difficult to pull off. A good example is watching high level Black Belts spar in competitions; regardless of the style, it all lacks the fancy techniques they perform in their kata/forms. Not because those techniques don't work. Because when the heart is thumping the fine motor skills diminish. One min of adrenaline feels like 3 rounds in the ring. Cardio and conditioning may be the most under-trained technique in any system.
As a LEO, any art/style that gives you the ability to control your subject while protecting you, the public, and yes the subject too, is good. Remember, when they take pictures of the subject, no matter how well you articulate the use of force justification, if he/she "looks" abused, the jury/public will believe THEM over YOU. Don't let that keep you from taking care of business, but use it to help you select what art/style you will use. Stay in shape.

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#110137 - 05/04/04 04:20 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Doughnut Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 197
Loc: Mid-west, U.S.A
Sheepdog,
Thankyou for you insight. I was in refering to the "semper fu" guy. I ment Richard Strozzi-Heckler. If intrested read the following.
Doughnut

A FEW GOOD MEN TRY THE MARINE MARTIAL ART, AND TAKE ON 2 GURUS
By GREG JAFFE
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
October 9, 2000

CAMP PENDLETON, Calif. -- Artillery fire booms from a nearby range. But in a dusty field, a dozen Marines sit motionless, eyes closed, breathing rhythmically.
Breathe. Boom. Breathe. Boom. Breathe. Boom.

After 15 minutes, the men spring to their feet. Asked what they're doing, Lance Cpl. Alex Pena barks out: "It's a concentration, breathing exercise, sir. ... We were meditating."

Meditating Marines are part of a new, made-for-the-Corps martial-art program starting this month on four bases that will eventually be mandatory for all Marines. The Corps is famous for its blood-and-guts training. The new Marine Corps martial art, however, is focused as much on the soul as it is on soldiering.

To earn black belts, Marines must master eye gouges and shoulder throws while also exploring their personal connection to Apache, Zulu and Spartan warriors. Sitting in a drab base classroom on government-issue folding chairs, 20 young men shut their eyes as an officer urges them to visualize themselves as Spartans at the battle of Thermopylae: shields locked, spears ready, vainly trying to hold back thousands of assaulting Persians.

These are odd times for the military and particularly for the Marines, who have always considered themselves the ultimate warriors. It's hard to maintain that spirit when they're far more likely to draw peacekeeping duty than to relive the battle of Iwo Jima.
Worried that the Corps could lose its edge, the Marines' commandant, Gen. James L. Jones, decided to create a new martial art to give his Marines a sense of "inner peace" even as they get in touch with their inner warrior.

Every martial art needs a sensei. To build the new program, Gen. Jones called on two such teachers. Richard Heckler, a 56-year-old psychologist, author and fifth-degree aikido black-belt runs his own dojo -- or martial-art studio -- for enlightenment seekers in Marin County, Calif. The general also grabbed Lt. Col. George Bristol, 42, a Marine infantry officer with a black belt in judo and a nose that has been broken so many times that it's way out of kilter.

For five summer weeks this year, 170 Marines gathered at Camp Pendleton to test the two programs. Dr. Heckler's group learned basic martial-art moves while striving also for inner peace through the mastery of a dozen "warrior values," including accountability, integrity and courage. Col. Bristol taught his Marines to fight with fists, bayonets and knives while he schooled the troops in their connection to ancient warrior cultures.

On a cool morning in September, Dr. Heckler's "ninja platoon," as it is known here, goes for a morning run. But it isn't the usual running-in-formation the Marines are famous for. Each man advances at his own pace, checking his pulse regularly to ensure it's an aerobically optimal 140 to 160 beats a minute.

When they finish, the ninjas sit together in a dusty field to do their breathing exercises and read a short paper on accountability prepared by Dr. Heckler. "When I am accountable, I see myself as the fundamental creative force in my life and am unwilling to delegate that role," the paper declares.

Cpl. Patrick Bishop, from Alder Point, Calif., with a blond crew-cut and a wad of chewing tobacco in his cheek, strides to the front to share his own struggle with accountability. "I used to say that person p----- me off," he says. "Now I realize I was just letting them p--- me off. I wasn't being accountable for my emotions." Later in the day, a smaller group of ninjas will gather to talk about what it means to be a warrior. They quickly decide it's someone who fights for what is morally right. One member suggests that Mother Theresa was a "warrior for God." The group nods sagely in agreement.

Between bouts of self-exploration, the young Marines, most of them between the ages of 18 and 23, pair up for "energy drills," each draping his arms around his opponent's shoulders, rocking back and forth trying to knock him off balance. "Basically, what we're doing here is exploring each other's energy," Cpl. Bishop explains, pausing to spit.
The ninjas are all converts to the Heckler way. "I learned more about myself in five weeks than I did in 24 years," says Cpl. Bishop. Sgt. William Hussey, an intelligence specialist from Panama City, Fla., nods. "That's so true," he says.

At the other end of Camp Pendleton, Col. Bristol's group goes through drills that have often left the men bruised and bloodied. These guys don't have a nickname, but their customized T-shirts read "One Mind Any Weapon." They spend dozens of hours mastering bayonet techniques and pounding each other with boxing gloves. For their spiritual development, they listen to lectures about Zulu warriors who toughened their spirit walking barefoot through fields of thorns and about the Spartans' defeat at Thermopylae. Col. Bristol is such a buff that he went to Greece three years ago to commune with their spirit. "I would have thrived as a Spartan," he declares.

The goal of the Bristol program, he says, is to give the Marines a sense of the fear -- and pain -- of combat, so they can surmount it. Fear was certainly rampant throughout training. Several of the men recall how the colonel closed in on them with a bayonet, stopping just short of their jugular veins. "I could kill you with a single thrust," he grunted, with the blade hovering. When Marines complained about another exercise -- they got pepper spray in the eyes -- he exploded. "Do you think the Spartans would be whining?" he demanded.

Gen. Jones says that the new program, starting with about 15,000 men this month, will combine the best of the Heckler and Bristol programs. He hopes that the training will be especially useful on peacekeeping missions, where Marines may have to disarm angry civilians with less than lethal force. "In today's world, it is the organized and disciplined mind that will survive," he says.

The new martial art will also become part of the Marines' recruiting pitch. One poster, unveiled last week, plays on the program's Eastern roots: "Marine Martial Art: You'll Bow to No One." A second pitch is an even more succinct challenge to the next generation of warriors. Showing a Marine wearing camouflage and a black belt, it reads, "This Belt Isn't Standard Issue."

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