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#110078 - 08/21/03 07:27 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Anonymous
Unregistered


Jujistu is not just ground fighting. Brazilian jujitsu is ground oriented, other styles may also be, but not all of them.

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#110079 - 08/22/03 07:10 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Karate kid:
YOUR FULL OF SHIT JKOGAS!!!!!!! AIKIDO "DOES!!!" WORK ON RESISTING OPPONENTS. I DUNNO ABOUT JUJITSU, I KNOW ITS NOTHIN BUT GROUND FIGHTING CAUSE I CHECKED IT OUT BEFORE, BUT IVE PROVEN THE FACT THAT IT EOORKS GREAT!!! ON RESISTING OPPONENTS!!! not to talk bad about a MA or anythin, cause all MA are great, but if judo works on resisting people, then AIKIDO SURE ENOGH THING!!![/QUOTE]

Wow! What a raving lunatic you are. I'd suggest not leaving your medicine lying on the kitchen counter again and actually TAKE it next time, lol

Aikido does not TRAIN against resisting opponents. How do you expect to apply it against them? You won't have the timing or attributes necessary. Just because you "want" aikido to work, isn't going to make it happen.

For the REST of you willing to listen, I am involved with the SBGI which is the group that designed the ISR Matrix. Two of the head coaches behind the SBGI have been in law enforcement for a long time. Paul Sharp is still a cop in Chicago (in a bad neighborhood I might add) and has had to "pressure test" his technique on more than one occassion. Luis Gutierrez has been involved in law enforcement in Miami Fla. He and Paul are the head guys behind the ISR Matrix. It is the cutting edge of LEO tactics. Doesn't look ANYTHING like aikido does it?!

If you want info on the program, the best person to ask is Luis Gutierrez himself at www.onedragon.com

Also, check out: www.straightblastgym.com (the parent group).

-John



[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 08-22-2003).]

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#110080 - 08/22/03 07:50 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Sweeney Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 342
Loc: New York, USA
Hmmm...OK, JKogas, I won't go down the path Karate Kid did and leave myself open for those viciously grinning verbal attacks. So I've taken all my meds and won't make any offhand comments about your alleged fecal plenitude. But, hey, if aikido doesn't work when the opponent resists, is it all play-acting between cooperative pseudo-combatants? I do have some limited firsthand experience with aikido on the street. Some years back I rather easily took a razor from a fellow who was waving it at the police. The technique I used was kotegaeshi. He certainly did resist, but the resistance was brief precisely because the technique was effective. I have no experience with jujitsu and can't comment on that. I wish someone would jump in with a word from Tokyo as to what the Japanese police are doing. I really had heard that they were trained in aikido, at least in part. Oh, well, my meds are kicking in. Gotta go... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/IMG]

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#110081 - 08/22/03 08:23 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Ya know something...almost ANY technique under the SUN can work in it's own time. Some just have more frequent occurrence of working than do others. Some techniques are thus simply more high percentage than others.

We (if our lives depend on it) simply don't have the time to trying to perfect low percentage techniques when there is so much more out there that is higher percentage.

I choose to pursue what is provable against resisting training partners, rather than compliant training partners (as aikido practitioners are). Bad guys resist. The more skilled as fighters they are, the more your training had better reflect such scenarios.

I don't place a premium on taking candy from babies (martial arts techiques that work only against the unskilled). For this reason, aikido is OUT!

-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 08-22-2003).]

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#110082 - 08/23/03 09:03 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Sweeney Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 342
Loc: New York, USA
Here's something posted by Shotokan in the Aikido forum, under the thread "Karate Hard, Aikido Soft?" I'm not sure which "war" he's referring to. Does anyone know anything more about the Navy SEALS being trained in Aikido?

"...Why do you think Aikido was used so extensively in the war? Why do you think the US army and the Navy Seals include Aikido in their hand to hand training? Because it's been proven to be effective to them in real combat situations..."

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#110083 - 08/23/03 10:26 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Karate kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/07/03
Posts: 598
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sweeney:
Here's something posted by Shotokan in the Aikido forum, under the thread "Karate Hard, Aikido Soft?" I'm not sure which "war" he's referring to. Does anyone know anything more about the Navy SEALS being trained in Aikido?

"...Why do you think Aikido was used so extensively in the war? Why do you think the US army and the Navy Seals include Aikido in their hand to hand training? Because it's been proven to be effective to them in real combat situations..."
[/QUOTE]

I agree with you all the way sweeney, BUT...LOL... aikido is also what the hand to hand combat instructors at most police dept. teach!!!!

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#110084 - 08/23/03 11:53 AM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I have cops IN MY GYM! They all say that what is currently being taught in law enforcement regarding hand to hand SUCKS!

I recently posted about one of my students fights while on the job. Not ONCE during his fight did aikido come into play. At one point, his partner attempted a wrist lock and it DID NOT WORK!

Training now should be "alive" folks. All those with any amount of common sense (apparently lost among many traditionalists) will see the obvious benefits of such training.

The problem comes from the traditionalists methods of training against compliant partners. Bad guys are not compliant. Training will not be of ANY help against bad guys who resist if your partners do not resist! This is just common sense. There are better ways available now that weren't before. Change is inevitable. People must evolve or stagnate. It's your choice!

The SEALs that I know have NEVER used aikido during training. They don't have time for such training. Do you realize how long it would take to even BEGIN to become functional with aikido??? I've studied the art! SEALs simply have TOO much to do to focus on empty hand scenarios requiring such extensive training.

Also, consider what SEALs have to wear and carry with them. Imagine something like aikido which requires "fine motor skills" working while wearing a ruck sack and full regalia that must be worn (all while carrying an MP5). ANYONE with any combat experience knows that when the shit hits the fan, the first thing to go are the fine motor skills! That is what aikido is BASED upon and why it falls to pieces when needed!

-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 08-23-2003).]

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#110085 - 08/23/03 08:09 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Karate kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/07/03
Posts: 598
Jkogas, im sick of you putting down aikido, youve done on 2 diff posts. i come from a small town, but it has lots of MA's. Everyone in town is trying to take aikido. I want to know one thing, what MA do you take. I dont dont care about the MA's you used to take or formally have taken, I wanna know what MA art your taking now!?

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#110086 - 08/23/03 08:34 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I'm not putting down aikido so much as I am speaking the truth. If the truth is something you don't want to hear, you don't have to listen. You can just go bury your head in the sand and join the rest of the ranks of "pretend" martial artists out there. You will have PLENTY of company!

I train in Jeet Kune Do. Within that philosophy (it isn't a "style") you'll find training in boxing, savate, muay Thai, Greco-Roman wrestling, catchascatchcan, Brazilian jiu-jitsu and Filipino stick fighting. There's no aikido in there however because I like non-compliant partners! In other words, I don't do the stuff I do because I want to "Look cool", I want it to WORK!

I have made many a post on what and how I train. You should have known this already if you've actually been READING what people write!

-John

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#110087 - 08/23/03 09:35 PM Re: MA best for Law Enforcement
Sweeney Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 342
Loc: New York, USA
JKogas:

Let's go technique by technique. Let's take kotegaeshi, which is a wrist control technique I learned in the context of Aikido, although my Aikido teacher, who is now deceased, was also a 2nd Dan in a Japanese karate style (I forget which one). Anyway, I KNOW that kotegaeshi works against a resisting opponent because I've used it. As I said, I once took a razor away from an emotionally disturbed man using kotegaeshi when I was working as a paramedic in NYC. I also performed the technique in non-training situations against many others (unarmed), and in training situations I have practiced it effectively with opponents who were definitely not making it easy. I will admit that certain big bulky types that weigh 220+ pounds and have wrists the size of small tree trunks are not likely to be taken hold of effectively by someone of my 170-pound slender body type. But the guy with the razor was bigger than I and the fact that he wasn't expecting it made it pretty easy. There is also the consideration that, with proper maneuvering/centerline technique, one can (as one should) take the opponent off-balance and also be able to use two hands against his one. I find kotegaeshi to be a very effective technique at taking a small weapon (pistol, knife, etc.) from an opponent while still allowing control of the opponent without inflicting serious harm. Obviously, you have to be up close to do it, and the situations where I would (unarmed) actually approach such a person rather than keep my distance are few. As I said, I've only taken a weapon from someone on the street once that way, and that was because it was a professional (paramedic) situation. In most cases I would probably keep (or increase) my distance or, if properly equipped and justifiably required, take a safer (for me) albeit less restrained approach, e.g., retreat, a whack to the armed hand with the nunchaku, or a bullet to the head, depending, of course, on the circumstances. But I dabbled in Aikido in large part for the same reason I started young with the nunchaku: I wanted to be able to disarm an opponent armed with a knife without killing him or her. Ah yes, that reminds me: I did take a pair of scissors away from an angry inebriated girlfriend some years back in Puerto Rico using kotegaeshi, but prehaps that was, as you say, candy from a baby. In any event, in my humble opinion, kotegaeshi works.

Sweeney

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