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#109925 - 04/26/03 05:43 PM russian spetsnaz
DieseLaFreak Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 10
the russian spetsnaz have a special type of fighting..its a very powerful type of street fighting but i dont know too much about them...can anyone tell me what they know?? and anything about their training

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#109926 - 04/27/03 02:15 AM Re: russian spetsnaz
NYCRonin Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/21/03
Posts: 16
Loc: Bklyn. N.Y.
The 'Spets' have a few combative methods - depends on the area of Spets you are referring. The Special Operations Unit - they are trained in a method known as Systema. If you want more info about Systema, contact the site mentioned in my profile.

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#109927 - 01/19/05 03:43 PM Re: russian spetsnaz
Anonymous
Unregistered


Spetsnaz fighting is a bit confusing, because there is no set move list, rank system, anything like that. It is literally based on extreme flexibility, reaction, instinctive movement, etc. It can be either very useful or very useless. It can also be a bit esoteric and mystical at times, depending on who you talk to. It is a good style to be exposed to, though, and can only help. Check out this website:
http://www.russianmartialart.com

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#109928 - 01/20/05 08:43 PM Re: russian spetsnaz
loki Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/11/04
Posts: 844
Spetsnaz:
Soviet Elite special forces,often used as body guards,and enforcers.

RMA( Russian Martial Arts) a tribal system of fighting used by slavic warriors.

1917: The gov't decides to research martial history; Russians & other in gathering a massive profile of techniques. From 25 different art forms they formed a tiered system.
(CQC) only thaught to special forces & secret police.
(CCT) General Soviet army units.

(sambo) was the name used: Samozashchitya Bez Oruzhiya meaning self protection without use of weapons.
Two categories exist: Sport Sambo & combat Sambo.

Yet their also exist a third style of Sambo called Combat Sambo Spetsnaz. This style has been hiddenin secrecy. Many of the origninal RMA exists in this system. Used by the Spetsnaz,MVD special units,VDV Paras OMON units,Russian Marine & other specialists. These people simply call this MA: The Systema
Kobun Out

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#109929 - 06/18/05 09:06 PM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: loki]
loki Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/11/04
Posts: 844
ADDING: Vladimir Vasiliev - Toronto Canada is having a SUMMER TRAINING CAMP. It sounds interesting. Visit www.RussianMartialarts.com for more information.

Kobun

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#109930 - 07/18/05 03:03 PM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: loki]
SkInHoUnD Offline
Member

Registered: 04/13/05
Posts: 310
Loc: Canada
You wouldnt think it but Russians have alot of martial arts history.Must have picked it up over the centuries from bordering with asia. I think even Vladimir Putin is a master of Judo...but he's also ex KGB

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#109931 - 07/18/05 07:10 PM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: DieseLaFreak]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
I think for police and military combatives, you can find more appropriate, effective programs, without the hocus pocus and without having to go to the top of the food chain to see it done "right".

Just my opinion.
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#109932 - 07/19/05 10:18 AM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: Fletch1]
SkInHoUnD Offline
Member

Registered: 04/13/05
Posts: 310
Loc: Canada
Its just more practical...I dont think theres a deep traditional philosophy to whacking a magnum out of some punks hand.

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#109933 - 07/19/05 04:17 PM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: SkInHoUnD]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
What is more practical?
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#109934 - 07/19/05 05:07 PM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: DieseLaFreak]
fattts14 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/05
Posts: 224
Loc: T.O. On, Can
Systema is a compolation of various martial arts. It is based on filtering dwn the most effective styles and moves that the Russians have encountered throughout history, from battles with the Turks and Parissians and the mongol empire and so on. It was "perfected" during WW2 by Stalin's Falcons (personal body gaurds). It's teaching methods focus on quick comprehension and easy learning. Integrates H2H, striking and grappling, with dissarms, confined space, combat and submissions. There are no "proper" stances no katas, no learning to count in Japanese or anything like that. Just fighting and killing.
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#109935 - 07/19/05 11:18 PM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: fattts14]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Interesting. Based on what I have seen from Systema, I question the assertion that it is about "...filtering dwn the most effective styles and moves...".

I'm not going to bash Systema. I think there is a lot of unwarranted hype surrounding it. I also think that it generally appeals to people who are looking for something exotic and mysterious. That is a major warning sign.
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#109936 - 07/20/05 09:30 AM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: Fletch1]
fattts14 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/05
Posts: 224
Loc: T.O. On, Can
EXotic and mysterious is allright if it works, right?
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Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect.

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#109937 - 07/20/05 11:25 AM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: fattts14]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
If....

1. It works under realistic pressure.

2. You don't have to go to the top of the food chain to see it done "right".

These are two connected issues that keep coming up. Students seem to be learning things they cannot seem to make work outside of their "group" and when confronted, counter by saying "yeah, but **** is amazing".

If someone has to go to the "source" to see something proven, I question the assertion that the program can be effectively passed on.

I'll say it. I'm a non believer. I'm being nice.
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#109938 - 07/20/05 02:57 PM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: Fletch1]
fattts14 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/05
Posts: 224
Loc: T.O. On, Can
What do you mean go to the top of the food chain to see it done right? Who said anything like that? I've seen it done right, in fact I've done it right, in sparring and the street, and I'm no where near the top of the chain, I'm sure. If it doesn't work then why do the Spetsnaz still use it. And why do police, body gaurds, correctional officers and military personel from all over the world train in the system? "if it works under actual pressure" you say... TKD, BJJ, or any other martial art isn't going to work either if the person performing can't work under pressure.
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#109939 - 07/21/05 12:03 AM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: fattts14]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
This is going nowhere.

Marketing hype does not make make it valid. The assertion that because **** does it it must be good, appeals to those who do not train and are "shopping" for a quick fix. There are people that believe that Systema works. Some of those people work in Law Enforcement. That is not any more of an "endorsement" than saying X number of cops train in Kung Fu, Tai Chi or Aikido.

The Systema training I and everyone I know has seen is based on cooperation and choreography. This goes against the idea of "working under actual pressure".

I am not going to debate Systema here. You know enough of my perspective.
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#109940 - 07/22/05 02:18 AM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: Fletch1]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
It has been suggested that my posts on this thread did not attempt to answer the original question and that I apparently have something against Systema and that I was bashing it as a system. It was also suggested that as a moderator, I should show a little more poise and tact and that no one asked why itís no good or if I like it.

hmmmmm......

That is interesting. This is a Security/ LE forum. I have some experience operating and instructing in that area. That experience puts me in a position where I evaluate things based on concerns about officer safety, functionality and practicality of training methods. I detest hype that suggests that something is more than what it is. Someone looking for tactical traininig options in the fields of Security and LE should at least share that perspective.

There are some programs that are heavily marketed as the preferred programs (erroneously) of various national and international military groups, police and corrections agencies, etc. There are many people who through their enthusiasm, help in perpetuating this hype. My posts serve as a counter point and are not limited only to Systema. RangerG can attest to this I am sure.

I did not close this thread. I stated, with a great deal of diplomacy I believe, what I believe are some valid perspectives that run opposite to the extremely positive, glowing reviews posted by some. I believe I remained professional. My moderator status requires that I moderate, even myself at times.

Why did I address this here? Because I think it is the ethical thing to do. Somthing I take very seriously in my job, my training and yes, even my little position here.

Thanks for reading.


Edited by Fletch1 (07/22/05 02:41 AM)
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#109941 - 07/26/05 09:45 AM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: Fletch1]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
I've only posted once in this forum, and Fletch1 you said I was welcome to contribute (you might regret that! ) a while back so here goes.

Like most I've heard alot about this Systema stuff, so I thought I'd read a bit more about. I haven't yet found any clubs in my area, so I'll add that my opinion is based on what I've seen in terms of video clips and read on various Systema website.

The Russian guy who is, "top of the food chain", looks awesome. I like the ideas of relaxation and the concept of their crowd awareness stuff, but their exercises where they are just walking around with bag gloves on giving each other little digs is just plain silly. I work as a doorman, and have been in the middle of a crowd, my single concern was dropping anyone that came into range not giving them little taps. I saw this exercise and other parts of their training "misguided".

I like some of the knife stuff that they done and also some of their gun disarms. Some of the clips of the knife and guy disarms are downright stupid!

To back up what fletch said, I think that they're top ranked guys are seriously dangerous dudes. But the stuff I've seen on the UK doesn't inspire me to go out of my way and train with them.

Systema is being marketed as a secret system used by elite KGB killing machines that can turn your average 9-5 Bank Teller into Rambo (or whatever the russian equalivant is). Most of what I have seen them do in the clips just wouldn't work in the real world.

This is an article written by a UK Systema guy called Paul Genge, who attempted to debunk the debunkers by going along to fight (sparr???) with MMA. This is a video in which he claims settles the arguement with regards to whether Systema could stand up against a MMA. The guy in the clip has 3 years Judo experience and susposedly a years worth of Vale Tudo. In the clip this guy comes in with a thigh kick and drops his right hand, this Paul guy rightly sticks a left hook(ish) type punch to guy. He says this proves it all, to me this proves nothing but the fact that he was against a guy who didn't know what he was doing.

As I've said I've not trained with these guys, just offering an opinion.


Edited by Gavin (07/26/05 10:25 AM)
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#109942 - 07/28/05 01:32 PM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: Fletch1]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Fletch1 I find your views enlightening and the overall topic informative. I've seen some of the Systema techniques it looks like sloopy Jujitus to me. But it is sometimes direct and effective in some of its techniques used.

I remember seeing 2 or 3 tapes showing how staying loose they can asorb kicks and strikes, which is true but what about a counter to the attack. I was really amissed that more counters were not demo'd. Rather then more philosophy/Mystic discussed as if it was totally new subject.

I've been intriuged by these Russians Arts but some like Sambo or admittedly just a version of Judo or Jujitsu.

In your Opinion because you have examined Systema, Combat Sambo, Spetsnaza how does it compare to Bjj. And is it just a verison of eastern arts warmed over. I've only seen training videos of SystemA.

I just want a informative view from a non-bias Instructoral point of view. Any impressed student of Systema is also urge to reply. I just want to know, it seems that Sambo is teh most seen and tested.

Nice input Gavin a one punch fight proves nothing except that he can punch out a lessor opponent


Edited by Neko456 (07/28/05 01:35 PM)
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#109943 - 07/28/05 02:22 PM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: Neko456]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Quote:



In your Opinion because you have examined Systema, Combat Sambo, Spetsnaza how does it compare to Bjj. And is it just a verison of eastern arts warmed over. I've only seen training videos of SystemA.

I just want a informative view from a non-bias Instructoral point of view. Any impressed student of Systema is also urge to reply. I just want to know, it seems that Sambo is teh most seen and tested.






I think the bottom line, regardless of tradition, history or lineage, is performance. The most consistent factor in influencing that performance is training methodology. As far as "Eastern Arts warmed over"? I think the training in Russian MA is every bit as legitimate from a performance perspective, as any other program that trains similarly under similar conditions.



I am no Russian historian, but from what I know about Sambo, it became popular, like Judo and BJJ, as a sport. Eventually, it became well known also for it's original goal which was an athletically trained military program with a heavy self defense/ battlefield application. The delivery system however, is athletic and competitively developed. For this same reason, it was well received by troops in training as it developed fighting spirit, physical fitness and team work.

It is no secret that the latest US Army Combatives manual has integrated a great deal of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for the same reason. This was developed and at least partially modeled or inspired by the success of Sambo in Russia.

Comparing BJJ to Sambo? At this stage of the game, there is no comparison. At the highest levels, representatives of both systems are just awesome. But at that point, they are all training similarly and with the best coaches and training partners. At the lowest levels? Just like anything else. Some good, some not so good.

Is Sambo the Ultimate H2H system? No. Does it appeal to everyone? No. Can people who train in it be effective? Absolutely. Is it a guarantee? No.

For the record and keeping with the theme of this forum as "Security and LE" (as opposed to BJJ), I have been woefully disappointed in BJJ programs for police. So, even as a BJJ person, I have to keep things in perspective from a professional standpoint.


I cannot comment on Systema.


Edited by Fletch1 (07/28/05 02:32 PM)
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#109944 - 08/01/05 01:26 PM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: Fletch1]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Thanks that explained alot you seem to not be snow stromed by any Martial art training stating its the best since Raisin Toast not even your well thought of BJJ is totally sufficent for the constant changing state of LE conflicts. In your eyes it seems. Thats beiing very open minded.

I always wondered how BJJ or Sambo taught gun retention its such a close in clinching system? I personally would feel every uncomfortable in a clich armed trying to keep my gun and life intact.

Is Spetsnaz more strike orientated then Sambo or BJJ?
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#109945 - 08/01/05 04:51 PM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: Neko456]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
From my observations, any credible attempt to disarm someone will require the one doing the disarming to get close, to clinch and secure the weapon and then to manipulate it free and disengage or use the weapon close.

This makes a pretty clear argument for learning how to work in exteme close quarters as opposed to arms length/ sparring distance. This does not mean that you clinch with everyone, just like training the ground does not mean you take everyone to the ground and choke them out.

You'll have to do your own research on the Spetznatz stuff. From what I have seen, I cannot comment.
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#109946 - 11/26/05 11:07 PM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: Fletch1]
loki Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/11/04
Posts: 844
Been gone for a bit ...

The age old question: Which art dominates the realistic world ? As Fletch comments, Systema used by the Russian Spetnaz most likely untouchable by us mere civilians. Yet exagerated claims have been made by many ... Including JKD/TKD/Harang do/Sayoc Kali/BBJ, all in the same money making sceem.

Their alure is the greatness of becoming untouchable. A great warrior/super soldier or god forbid another H.Gracie.

No such system exists: Thus the reason for military combatives changing the drum beat every time something new comes out. Trying to stay a top of the martial circus often offends me, since many regular people laught at our ways. The image we create is often not the lone Samurai warrior, that holds honor & respect. In fact, not even the opposite: Clownish how we pretend to be so invicible, & dark as we parrad in our Gi's holding shurikens. Throwing them, at targets forgeting the truth.

War-Martial-Bushi means the same: Reflect upon your Kris sword as soldiers peace keep in Ruwanda. Body gathering for burning puts death in a strange perspective.

As for the Spetznas: They were very effective, ask any Aphgani who lost family.

Personal defense: This is the reason I strive to be the best. Not only physicaly, but mentaly ... Thus remmember that instead of following some Sensei blindly, effectively judge what is on the curriculum.

Training
conditioning
skill
chance

There lies the truth in the Bushi

Kobun-Loki

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#109947 - 11/27/05 10:23 AM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: SkInHoUnD]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
Putin is 6th Dan Judo, I believe... however I think he was GRU rather than KGB.

I believe that Sambo was developed, in part, from a number of traditional wrestling styles found in the former USSR, as well as things like Judo/JJ


Edited by trevek (11/27/05 10:32 AM)
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#109948 - 11/28/05 04:02 PM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: trevek]
PaulGenge Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 9
Loc: Manchester, UK
Systema is definately not every ones cup of tea and there is no martial art that can turn anyone impervious of any attack. However it is a very valid approach to the realities of real combat. The main problem is the view point that it looks at the subject is very different from what mast people have already accepted as there own.

The only real way to make an informed judgement is to turn up and have a go with a decent instructor. This is exactly what happened recently when a member of the Geoff Thompson Forum decided to check us out. The guy in question is of the RBSD style martial artist variety and an experienced doorman.

If interested in his opinions check out this link to Geoff's forum.

Forum link

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest

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#109949 - 11/29/05 08:44 AM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: trevek]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
I stand corrected, Comrade Putin was indeed KGB.
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#109950 - 12/29/05 10:18 PM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: DieseLaFreak]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA
The Russians lost the cold war.

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#109951 - 12/30/05 07:27 AM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: Intrepidinv1]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
The japanese lost WW2, is that a comment on Karate?
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#109952 - 01/03/06 03:06 AM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: trevek]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA
No, I like the Japanese.

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#109953 - 01/03/06 03:20 AM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: Intrepidinv1]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
Let me guess, because the Japanese beat the Russians in a war?

So what is your problem with the Russians?


Edited by trevek (01/03/06 03:21 AM)
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#109954 - 01/03/06 12:15 PM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: trevek]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA
I'm going to bow out of this discussion. I don't want the Russian Mafia or some elite killing team chasing me around the streets of my little city. I've made enough enemies as it is.

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#109955 - 01/03/06 12:55 PM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: Intrepidinv1]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
Well maybe just say why you don't like Russians or what losing the cold war has to do with the efficacy of spetnatz training systema etc and maybe they'll let you live (if not walk)Tovarich .
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#109956 - 01/03/06 01:01 PM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: trevek]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA
Actually, the Russians I trained with in Judo a few years ago were actually very tough. I liked their style. Honestly, I don't know anything about Systema, so I can't comment on it.

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#109957 - 01/03/06 04:30 PM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: Intrepidinv1]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Keep this thread out of politics por favor.

Not that CQB should be discounted but there are few examples that I can think of where one military H2H program completely outclasses any other.
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#109958 - 01/06/06 04:51 AM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: Fletch1]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
Sorry Fletch, just couldn't see the point of the cold war comment.
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#109959 - 01/15/06 10:27 AM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: trevek]
Glockmeister Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
check out www.russianmartialart.com .there you can get more info on systema.


Edited by Glockmeister (01/15/06 10:33 AM)

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#109960 - 02/23/06 06:36 AM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: Glockmeister]
PaulGenge Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 9
Loc: Manchester, UK
Systema does seem to make over the top claims in some of it's advertisements, but then again name any product where the ad man does not get carried away.

The, "You should see Vlad", argument is used by some people in the style and personally I do not like it. If you cannot do the stuff yourself teaching is not what you should be doing.

This is no different than many styles where the presures of buisness or as in the case of systema where there is a lack of control from the centre of people teaching. Finding a decent instructor is essential.

There are numerous systema students and instructors who have found the art by accident or turned up to have a laugh and found it incredibly effective. Often these people have LEO or millitary careers and are very qualified in other arts. (This simply would not happen if it was a fake).

The problem mainly lies the perceptions of those that view a few clips and try to compare them to their own styles. This is very difficult to do because the systema approach is very different to what traditional or RBSD styles use.

In traditional arts there is kata or techniques. In systema there is no preset attacks or defences. This means that there is absolutely no choreography.

In RBSD the approach focuses on using aggression and forward drive. Systema does not use aggression and uses a mindset more similar to the concept of mushin (no mind) as used in Japanese martial arts. This fits in well with there being no set attacks or defences. If you have a set defence to apply you will find it very difficult to deal with the random nature of an attack.

The only thing to do if interested in what systema does or does not offer is to try a class. The best thing to do is check Vlad'site to ensure the instructor is certified. If on the list they should be able to do the work under presure.

Hope this helps in your understanding of what systema offers. I have spent the last 10 years as a front line LEO. In my experience Systema has alot to offer. However I only found this out when I gave it a go. Maybe instead of making comments people should do a little research first and attend a class.

Paul Genge

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#109961 - 06/27/06 10:59 PM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: PaulGenge]
SEAL Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 139
To sum up the russian military as systema is absurd. No one ever heard of the aikido army defeating the kung fu army. No one ever heard of the systema navy defeating the karate navy. ALL martial arts are basically screwy insurance policies. A martial art may give you the tools to increase your chances in a fight for your life, but it is no gurantee. If Systema is such an effective system, I wonder what's holding it back. I do know that it's not for me. There are many RBSD arts that provide the POSSIBILITY with saving your life. There are no secrets to combat.

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#109962 - 06/27/06 11:48 PM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: SEAL]
PaulHart Offline
banned member

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 192
Loc: The Real
I wonder what has happened to the other Russian arts? The thread is names Russian Spetnaz so wouldn't all arts be in line that were used by the Russian Special Forces? what about Buza, BARS, Kolo, Korosu,Kourdstan-tustuu, Kulachnoi Boya, Slaviano-Goritskaya Bor'ba, Sambo, Skoba, Sobor and Sokoli Stalina which was used by Stalin's Bodyguards. Russia itself is a vast amount of information on combat and among the best in the world when it comes to fighting arts. Plus a great country to visit with great people. I have often thought of relocating there when I am older, but I don't know if I ever will. Systema is just the new art on the block.
_________________________
Paul Hart http://allshorin.org

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