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#109935 - 07/19/05 11:18 PM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: fattts14]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Interesting. Based on what I have seen from Systema, I question the assertion that it is about "...filtering dwn the most effective styles and moves...".

I'm not going to bash Systema. I think there is a lot of unwarranted hype surrounding it. I also think that it generally appeals to people who are looking for something exotic and mysterious. That is a major warning sign.
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#109936 - 07/20/05 09:30 AM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: Fletch1]
fattts14 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/05
Posts: 224
Loc: T.O. On, Can
EXotic and mysterious is allright if it works, right?
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#109937 - 07/20/05 11:25 AM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: fattts14]
Fletch1 Offline
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Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
If....

1. It works under realistic pressure.

2. You don't have to go to the top of the food chain to see it done "right".

These are two connected issues that keep coming up. Students seem to be learning things they cannot seem to make work outside of their "group" and when confronted, counter by saying "yeah, but **** is amazing".

If someone has to go to the "source" to see something proven, I question the assertion that the program can be effectively passed on.

I'll say it. I'm a non believer. I'm being nice.
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#109938 - 07/20/05 02:57 PM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: Fletch1]
fattts14 Offline
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Registered: 07/07/05
Posts: 224
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What do you mean go to the top of the food chain to see it done right? Who said anything like that? I've seen it done right, in fact I've done it right, in sparring and the street, and I'm no where near the top of the chain, I'm sure. If it doesn't work then why do the Spetsnaz still use it. And why do police, body gaurds, correctional officers and military personel from all over the world train in the system? "if it works under actual pressure" you say... TKD, BJJ, or any other martial art isn't going to work either if the person performing can't work under pressure.
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#109939 - 07/21/05 12:03 AM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: fattts14]
Fletch1 Offline
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Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
This is going nowhere.

Marketing hype does not make make it valid. The assertion that because **** does it it must be good, appeals to those who do not train and are "shopping" for a quick fix. There are people that believe that Systema works. Some of those people work in Law Enforcement. That is not any more of an "endorsement" than saying X number of cops train in Kung Fu, Tai Chi or Aikido.

The Systema training I and everyone I know has seen is based on cooperation and choreography. This goes against the idea of "working under actual pressure".

I am not going to debate Systema here. You know enough of my perspective.
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#109940 - 07/22/05 02:18 AM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: Fletch1]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
It has been suggested that my posts on this thread did not attempt to answer the original question and that I apparently have something against Systema and that I was bashing it as a system. It was also suggested that as a moderator, I should show a little more poise and tact and that no one asked why itís no good or if I like it.

hmmmmm......

That is interesting. This is a Security/ LE forum. I have some experience operating and instructing in that area. That experience puts me in a position where I evaluate things based on concerns about officer safety, functionality and practicality of training methods. I detest hype that suggests that something is more than what it is. Someone looking for tactical traininig options in the fields of Security and LE should at least share that perspective.

There are some programs that are heavily marketed as the preferred programs (erroneously) of various national and international military groups, police and corrections agencies, etc. There are many people who through their enthusiasm, help in perpetuating this hype. My posts serve as a counter point and are not limited only to Systema. RangerG can attest to this I am sure.

I did not close this thread. I stated, with a great deal of diplomacy I believe, what I believe are some valid perspectives that run opposite to the extremely positive, glowing reviews posted by some. I believe I remained professional. My moderator status requires that I moderate, even myself at times.

Why did I address this here? Because I think it is the ethical thing to do. Somthing I take very seriously in my job, my training and yes, even my little position here.

Thanks for reading.


Edited by Fletch1 (07/22/05 02:41 AM)
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#109941 - 07/26/05 09:45 AM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: Fletch1]
Gavin Offline
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Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
I've only posted once in this forum, and Fletch1 you said I was welcome to contribute (you might regret that! ) a while back so here goes.

Like most I've heard alot about this Systema stuff, so I thought I'd read a bit more about. I haven't yet found any clubs in my area, so I'll add that my opinion is based on what I've seen in terms of video clips and read on various Systema website.

The Russian guy who is, "top of the food chain", looks awesome. I like the ideas of relaxation and the concept of their crowd awareness stuff, but their exercises where they are just walking around with bag gloves on giving each other little digs is just plain silly. I work as a doorman, and have been in the middle of a crowd, my single concern was dropping anyone that came into range not giving them little taps. I saw this exercise and other parts of their training "misguided".

I like some of the knife stuff that they done and also some of their gun disarms. Some of the clips of the knife and guy disarms are downright stupid!

To back up what fletch said, I think that they're top ranked guys are seriously dangerous dudes. But the stuff I've seen on the UK doesn't inspire me to go out of my way and train with them.

Systema is being marketed as a secret system used by elite KGB killing machines that can turn your average 9-5 Bank Teller into Rambo (or whatever the russian equalivant is). Most of what I have seen them do in the clips just wouldn't work in the real world.

This is an article written by a UK Systema guy called Paul Genge, who attempted to debunk the debunkers by going along to fight (sparr???) with MMA. This is a video in which he claims settles the arguement with regards to whether Systema could stand up against a MMA. The guy in the clip has 3 years Judo experience and susposedly a years worth of Vale Tudo. In the clip this guy comes in with a thigh kick and drops his right hand, this Paul guy rightly sticks a left hook(ish) type punch to guy. He says this proves it all, to me this proves nothing but the fact that he was against a guy who didn't know what he was doing.

As I've said I've not trained with these guys, just offering an opinion.


Edited by Gavin (07/26/05 10:25 AM)
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#109942 - 07/28/05 01:32 PM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: Fletch1]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Fletch1 I find your views enlightening and the overall topic informative. I've seen some of the Systema techniques it looks like sloopy Jujitus to me. But it is sometimes direct and effective in some of its techniques used.

I remember seeing 2 or 3 tapes showing how staying loose they can asorb kicks and strikes, which is true but what about a counter to the attack. I was really amissed that more counters were not demo'd. Rather then more philosophy/Mystic discussed as if it was totally new subject.

I've been intriuged by these Russians Arts but some like Sambo or admittedly just a version of Judo or Jujitsu.

In your Opinion because you have examined Systema, Combat Sambo, Spetsnaza how does it compare to Bjj. And is it just a verison of eastern arts warmed over. I've only seen training videos of SystemA.

I just want a informative view from a non-bias Instructoral point of view. Any impressed student of Systema is also urge to reply. I just want to know, it seems that Sambo is teh most seen and tested.

Nice input Gavin a one punch fight proves nothing except that he can punch out a lessor opponent


Edited by Neko456 (07/28/05 01:35 PM)
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#109943 - 07/28/05 02:22 PM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: Neko456]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Quote:



In your Opinion because you have examined Systema, Combat Sambo, Spetsnaza how does it compare to Bjj. And is it just a verison of eastern arts warmed over. I've only seen training videos of SystemA.

I just want a informative view from a non-bias Instructoral point of view. Any impressed student of Systema is also urge to reply. I just want to know, it seems that Sambo is teh most seen and tested.






I think the bottom line, regardless of tradition, history or lineage, is performance. The most consistent factor in influencing that performance is training methodology. As far as "Eastern Arts warmed over"? I think the training in Russian MA is every bit as legitimate from a performance perspective, as any other program that trains similarly under similar conditions.



I am no Russian historian, but from what I know about Sambo, it became popular, like Judo and BJJ, as a sport. Eventually, it became well known also for it's original goal which was an athletically trained military program with a heavy self defense/ battlefield application. The delivery system however, is athletic and competitively developed. For this same reason, it was well received by troops in training as it developed fighting spirit, physical fitness and team work.

It is no secret that the latest US Army Combatives manual has integrated a great deal of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for the same reason. This was developed and at least partially modeled or inspired by the success of Sambo in Russia.

Comparing BJJ to Sambo? At this stage of the game, there is no comparison. At the highest levels, representatives of both systems are just awesome. But at that point, they are all training similarly and with the best coaches and training partners. At the lowest levels? Just like anything else. Some good, some not so good.

Is Sambo the Ultimate H2H system? No. Does it appeal to everyone? No. Can people who train in it be effective? Absolutely. Is it a guarantee? No.

For the record and keeping with the theme of this forum as "Security and LE" (as opposed to BJJ), I have been woefully disappointed in BJJ programs for police. So, even as a BJJ person, I have to keep things in perspective from a professional standpoint.


I cannot comment on Systema.


Edited by Fletch1 (07/28/05 02:32 PM)
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#109944 - 08/01/05 01:26 PM Re: russian spetsnaz [Re: Fletch1]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Thanks that explained alot you seem to not be snow stromed by any Martial art training stating its the best since Raisin Toast not even your well thought of BJJ is totally sufficent for the constant changing state of LE conflicts. In your eyes it seems. Thats beiing very open minded.

I always wondered how BJJ or Sambo taught gun retention its such a close in clinching system? I personally would feel every uncomfortable in a clich armed trying to keep my gun and life intact.

Is Spetsnaz more strike orientated then Sambo or BJJ?
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