Interesting. Based on what I have seen from Systema, I question the assertion that it is about "...filtering dwn the most effective styles and moves...".

I'm not going to bash Systema. I think there is a lot of unwarranted hype surrounding it. I also think that it generally appeals to people who are looking for something exotic and mysterious. That is a major warning sign.

EXotic and mysterious is allright if it works, right?

If....

1. It works under realistic pressure.

2. You don't have to go to the top of the food chain to see it done "right".

These are two connected issues that keep coming up. Students seem to be learning things they cannot seem to make work outside of their "group" and when confronted, counter by saying "yeah, but **** is amazing".

If someone has to go to the "source" to see something proven, I question the assertion that the program can be effectively passed on.

I'll say it. I'm a non believer. I'm being nice.

What do you mean go to the top of the food chain to see it done right? Who said anything like that? I've seen it done right, in fact I've done it right, in sparring and the street, and I'm no where near the top of the chain, I'm sure. If it doesn't work then why do the Spetsnaz still use it. And why do police, body gaurds, correctional officers and military personel from all over the world train in the system? "if it works under actual pressure" you say... TKD, BJJ, or any other martial art isn't going to work either if the person performing can't work under pressure.

This is going nowhere.

Marketing hype does not make make it valid. The assertion that because **** does it it must be good, appeals to those who do not train and are "shopping" for a quick fix. There are people that believe that Systema works. Some of those people work in Law Enforcement. That is not any more of an "endorsement" than saying X number of cops train in Kung Fu, Tai Chi or Aikido.

The Systema training I and everyone I know has seen is based on cooperation and choreography. This goes against the idea of "working under actual pressure".

I am not going to debate Systema here. You know enough of my perspective.

It has been suggested that my posts on this thread did not attempt to answer the original question and that I apparently have something against Systema and that I was bashing it as a system. It was also suggested that as a moderator, I should show a little more poise and tact and that no one asked why it’s no good or if I like it.

hmmmmm......

That is interesting. This is a Security/ LE forum. I have some experience operating and instructing in that area. That experience puts me in a position where I evaluate things based on concerns about officer safety, functionality and practicality of training methods. I detest hype that suggests that something is more than what it is. Someone looking for tactical traininig options in the fields of Security and LE should at least share that perspective.

There are some programs that are heavily marketed as the preferred programs (erroneously) of various national and international military groups, police and corrections agencies, etc. There are many people who through their enthusiasm, help in perpetuating this hype. My posts serve as a counter point and are not limited only to Systema. RangerG can attest to this I am sure.

I did not close this thread. I stated, with a great deal of diplomacy I believe, what I believe are some valid perspectives that run opposite to the extremely positive, glowing reviews posted by some. I believe I remained professional. My moderator status requires that I moderate, even myself at times.

Why did I address this here? Because I think it is the ethical thing to do. Somthing I take very seriously in my job, my training and yes, even my little position here.

Thanks for reading.

I've only posted once in this forum, and Fletch1 you said I was welcome to contribute (you might regret that! ) a while back so here goes.

Like most I've heard alot about this Systema stuff, so I thought I'd read a bit more about. I haven't yet found any clubs in my area, so I'll add that my opinion is based on what I've seen in terms of video clips and read on various Systema website.

The Russian guy who is, "top of the food chain", looks awesome. I like the ideas of relaxation and the concept of their crowd awareness stuff, but their exercises where they are just walking around with bag gloves on giving each other little digs is just plain silly. I work as a doorman, and have been in the middle of a crowd, my single concern was dropping anyone that came into range not giving them little taps. I saw this exercise and other parts of their training "misguided".

I like some of the knife stuff that they done and also some of their gun disarms. Some of the clips of the knife and guy disarms are downright stupid!

To back up what fletch said, I think that they're top ranked guys are seriously dangerous dudes. But the stuff I've seen on the UK doesn't inspire me to go out of my way and train with them.

Systema is being marketed as a secret system used by elite KGB killing machines that can turn your average 9-5 Bank Teller into Rambo (or whatever the russian equalivant is). Most of what I have seen them do in the clips just wouldn't work in the real world.

This is an article written by a UK Systema guy called Paul Genge, who attempted to debunk the debunkers by going along to fight (sparr???) with MMA. This is a video in which he claims settles the arguement with regards to whether Systema could stand up against a MMA. The guy in the clip has 3 years Judo experience and susposedly a years worth of Vale Tudo. In the clip this guy comes in with a thigh kick and drops his right hand, this Paul guy rightly sticks a left hook(ish) type punch to guy. He says this proves it all, to me this proves nothing but the fact that he was against a guy who didn't know what he was doing.

As I've said I've not trained with these guys, just offering an opinion.

Fletch1 I find your views enlightening and the overall topic informative. I've seen some of the Systema techniques it looks like sloopy Jujitus to me. But it is sometimes direct and effective in some of its techniques used.

I remember seeing 2 or 3 tapes showing how staying loose they can asorb kicks and strikes, which is true but what about a counter to the attack. I was really amissed that more counters were not demo'd. Rather then more philosophy/Mystic discussed as if it was totally new subject.

I've been intriuged by these Russians Arts but some like Sambo or admittedly just a version of Judo or Jujitsu.

In your Opinion because you have examined Systema, Combat Sambo, Spetsnaza how does it compare to Bjj. And is it just a verison of eastern arts warmed over. I've only seen training videos of SystemA.

I just want a informative view from a non-bias Instructoral point of view. Any impressed student of Systema is also urge to reply. I just want to know, it seems that Sambo is teh most seen and tested.

Nice input Gavin a one punch fight proves nothing except that he can punch out a lessor opponent

Thanks that explained alot you seem to not be snow stromed by any Martial art training stating its the best since Raisin Toast not even your well thought of BJJ is totally sufficent for the constant changing state of LE conflicts. In your eyes it seems. Thats beiing very open minded.

I always wondered how BJJ or Sambo taught gun retention its such a close in clinching system? I personally would feel every uncomfortable in a clich armed trying to keep my gun and life intact.

Is Spetsnaz more strike orientated then Sambo or BJJ?