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#109915 - 08/12/04 02:50 PM Re: Less than deadly force
Anonymous
Unregistered


The mistake is attempting to use an irritant (CS) on a goal oriented attacker. The time to introduce any chemical/ pepper spray weapon is before the fight is on. Timing is crucial.

If you do not have the legal obligation to subdue the attacker (you are not a cop/ CO, security officer), don't. As you go hands on, you will likely suffer the effects of the spray yourself. Pepper CS is made up of micro particles that will be kicked up during a struggle.

If you have not experienced or had to fight through the effects of your own spray, don't be in a hurry to go hands on after you have sprayed someone.

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#109916 - 08/15/04 09:15 AM Re: Less than deadly force
kman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/03
Posts: 368
Loc: minnesota
Fletch, got to agree with you. timing is everything. Spray em early and keep hosing them til they turn away, fold up or you run dry. OC will close the eyes of anyone. Even a whack job on pcp. It might not put him down like it would a law abiding taxpayer, but at least he'll be blind and you can avoid his rushes. K-

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#109917 - 08/21/04 12:49 AM Re: Less than deadly force
Anonymous
Unregistered


Let's use some common sense here.

OC spray is used to momentarily incapacitate, however it is only effective against people who are not immune to it's effects either through conditioning, due to psychoactive agents such as drugs or alcohol, or who are not in a mentally charged stated.

So having to formulate a decision you need to bear that in mind. At that point defensive tactics become paramount. The OC spray is a force option that is tried and failed. Because it's use is considered a level higher than striking or kicking, but a level lower than lethal or deadly force if it fails the situation has escalate to the Force Plus One.

Many officers simply do not train for this sort of eventuality...they become complacent in their tools and weapons that they don't realize that most joint manipulation does not rely upon pain compliance. It relies upon mechanics and leverage. Nervous system pressure points are very effective in people who are in a state where OC spray is ineffective...the only problem is few people know how to apply them properly.

Sometimes that's easier said than done, however there are some very viable options that usually are ignored.

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#109918 - 08/25/04 12:28 PM Re: Less than deadly force
Anonymous
Unregistered


All other hypotheticals about submission beignset aside this is the crux of it right:

"...the unco operative armed man who keeps his firearm by his side but wont do as he is asked by police officers."

There are a thousand "what if's" that could play out in this discussion, as in real life. An armed, ucooperative subject, displaying a weapon presents only limited courses of action that you might take - both tactically and in terms of officer safety. The "apparent" lethality (firearm could be empty and it might be a suicide-by-cop-situation) of the weapon determines the course of action. If I were ALONE and confronted with a man with a firearm in this situation I just couldn't imagine attempting OC, baton or a physical disarming technique. When the posse shows up the dynamic could change considerably and other options might present thmeselves.

In the end, inspite of the best efforts of the LEOs to make it come out with no one being harmed, it is still the "bad guy" making the decisions about his or her own fate.

Great thread!

- KiDoHae

[This message has been edited by KiDoHae (edited 08-25-2004).]

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#109919 - 08/26/04 10:53 AM Re: Less than deadly force
Anonymous
Unregistered


Very interesting thread. It's a difficult delima and often one without a good answer. My vote is to make sure that the LEO goes home in one piece. If that means deadly force then so be it.

As far as chemical sprays go... Well in prairie states, the wind blows. A lot. And ususally pretty hard. Ever try to spay an aerosol in the wind? It just doesn't work well. You've got at least a 50-50 chance of getting more on your self than on the perp a significant amount of the time. I've not tried any of the foams but they are supposed to work better.

An armed bad guy has made a choice. And while I feel that we should make a good faith effort to resolve situations without loss of life, if the BG chooses not to relent, well, like I said, he's made his choice. I want the LEO to go home to his wife and kid when his shift is over.

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#109920 - 08/26/04 12:03 PM Re: Less than deadly force
Anonymous
Unregistered


Two Gun,

FYI, we just evaluated foams and passed on them. I'm sure they have thier applications but did not seem workable (compared to spray) for a number of reasons.

Good comments on the thread. My thoughts exactly. As far the BG decision making goes, "You pick the tune, you pay the piper."

- KiDoHae

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#109921 - 08/26/04 07:21 PM Re: Less than deadly force
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have a mate who has passed the probationary constable stage in the NSW police, he reckons the spray is very reliable...but very cruel and he would use the telescopic baton first, if he set policy.

He simply reckons it is so effective it is just so cruel - at the academy, they insist the trainees get some, in order so they don't abuse it without knowing the power it has.

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#109922 - 08/27/04 12:29 PM Re: Less than deadly force
Anonymous
Unregistered


That's disappointing to hear about the foams. I'd head that they worked better in the wind, sprayed farther and stuck better.

While local LEOs here carry spray, I've never heard of anyone using it. Small town with little crime, but the few guys here all have the same concern about the wind. What's more the department hasn't replaced the unused canisters in like 4 years. I don't know what the shelf life is supposed to be but I don't think anybody trust stuff that old.

When I was in the army they made us enter a tent full of OC and then remove our mask and state our name rank and serial number before we could leave. Military strength stuff is nasty. I'll tell you that people reacted differently. Some just walked away and other went yelling and screaming. I saw one guy running blindly and knock himself cold when he hit a tree. These same mixed reactions are what I image you get on the street.

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#109923 - 11/24/04 06:16 AM Re: Less than deadly force
Anonymous
Unregistered


if you are already behind them hook your arm under theres and over there neck sweep there leg and rool your arm towards you. then just bring them to the ground and wait for back up or just cuffem'. for the pepper spray situation, on the chance it doesn't work get your leg inbetween theres and push them over with one arm/hand as you brace there back/head for impact, then cuffem'
I hope this helps have a nice day.
D14 [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

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#109924 - 11/24/04 07:23 PM Re: Less than deadly force
Anonymous
Unregistered


When I was in the army they made us enter a tent full of OC and then remove our mask and state our name rank and serial number before we could leave.

I think you are referring to CS, not OC. CS is micro pulverized chemical powder. It is still used for riot operations by the military and some law enforcement.

OC is Oleoresin Capsicum. It is fine (food grade) pepper powder mixed with an oily carrier substance that holds it together in a stream, spray or foam. This gives it weight and helps it stick to your face.

I have seen much more incapacitating results from OC than I ever saw with CS.

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