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#109875 - 04/05/03 12:49 PM traditional budo in LEO work
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
For those who work as LEO and constantly have to deal with hassles of justifying the use of force on non-compliant subjects, what's your recommanded style?

Striking styles (karate) seem to be quite inappropriate. But then styles like aikido also seem too complicated and I will be nervous to use it on the street.

So if you get to go back 30 years and choose to start in an art form that would help you in your LEO career, what style will it be?

Or... does such style even exist? (simple to use yet doesn't injure the uke)

-raccoon

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#109876 - 04/05/03 04:35 PM Re: traditional budo in LEO work
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Not an LEO, but

from the ads in the 1980's Black Belt magazine, the guy flogging it reckoned that Daito Ryu was pretty damn good...

Aren't most police taught techniques from MA's deriving from this style?, aikido takedowns, judo restraints, jujutsu locks?

Karate is not a "striking art", it is much more, but most knowledge was lost when Itosu watered down katas and then when many masters died during the war or were resentful to Japanese and Westerners.

The art of karate, striking, trapping, locking, throwing, wrestling, dim mukking and of improvising with ordinary implements for weapons (such as a pen, keyring, poolcue) is being rediscovered.

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#109877 - 04/06/03 01:34 PM Re: traditional budo in LEO work
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Up until recently the police in the UK were taught a style called Taiho Jutsu, which is basically some simplified aikido locks (similar to sankyo and ikkyo - that sort of thing) and a few Judo throws, mainly hip or leg throws. Ground fighting in the sense of Judo ne waza isn't really taught as it is considered to leave the officer too vulnerable.

More recently the training has been further simplified, as it was thought Taiho jutsu needed too much continuation training to be effective. Whilst this is probably true, in my experience Taiho jutsu works well, is a relatively simple art and doesn't require as much training as most other arts.

I would agree that aiki jutsu and ju jutsu are very appropriate arts for LEO's (but then you would expect me too, wouldn't you), or perhaps something based on judo/aikido.

I think the description of karate as a predominatly striking art is fair, and as such it is less appropriate. The bottom line is that Joe Public doesn't want to see the police punching and kicking people when making an arrest, particularly when there are other, less outwardly aggressive arts to choose from.

Budo

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#109878 - 04/09/03 04:27 AM Re: traditional budo in LEO work
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
I would agree that aiki jutsu and ju jutsu are very appropriate arts for LEO's (but then you would expect me too, wouldn't you), or perhaps something based on judo/aikido.


I agree. I'm not sure if there is a single art in what we are taught at work, more a mesh of various restraint arts as mentioned.

We screws also have the problem of using strikes, especially due to the incresing number of cameras and the like.

We are taught (as I suppose LEO's are) many more techniques than just fighting.

Nice to see you again Cato.

Budo.

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#109879 - 04/09/03 11:31 AM Re: traditional budo in LEO work
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Having just completed my annual UDT (Unarmed Defence Tactics - How crap is that?) training, Im more convinced than ever that the sole purpose of this training is not to protect the officer, but to make him/her personally liable when they injure their DP.

There is so much "we didn't tell you to do that" mentality with the training that you wonder what exactly they did tell you to do. The emphasis is on "care" for the offender, take downs are done so slowly that everyone in the room knows fine well that they would never work outside the classroom. Locks have to be applied and then released to allow the subject the opportunity to comply freely and strikes are a real minefield of litigation.

When applieed with this menatality it is largely academic which art you use, because none of them will work under such constraints.

Budo

Ps Juds- It's nice to be back on the grown up forums. No doubt "Big Mother" will come along eventually and tell us what we can and can't say but until then I'm not letting you soft southern types have all the fun. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

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#109880 - 04/27/03 02:22 AM Re: traditional budo in LEO work
NYCRonin Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/21/03
Posts: 16
Loc: Bklyn. N.Y.
NYC/LEO > The 'styles' vary greatly and are rarely comprehensive. Academy training in a 'liability based law enforcement' situation is really pretty much useless and ONLY covers the municipality from law suits. Cato's post is very accurate in it's description.
I usually recommend a Jiu Jitsu type method...or the one I am involved in - Systema. J. Jitsu is usually MUCH easier to find good instruction.

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#109881 - 05/17/03 01:26 AM Re: traditional budo in LEO work
kman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/03
Posts: 368
Loc: minnesota
I concur on the jujitsu/akido as well as hapkido. I would add judo to the mix. Ive found that a throw can buy me a moments time to reach for a weapon or allow me to armbar a stunned subject onto his belly. Very few perps can manage a good breakfall onto pavement. And Cato hit right on the money with the liaility issue. But better to risk being sued than get hurt on the job.

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#109882 - 12/31/03 04:52 PM Re: traditional budo in LEO work
John Sharpe Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 16
Loc: HERMOSILLO, SONORA, MEXICO
AS SOMEONE WHO HAS TRAINED IN THE MARTIAL ARTS, BOTH IN AIKIDO AND JUJUTSU, AS HAVE WORKED IN LAW ENFORCEMENT FOR OVER 21 YEARS, I HAVE FOUND FROM EXPERIENCE THAT THE USE OF AIKIDO AND JUJUTSU TECHNIQUES ARE EXACTLY WHAT IS NEEDED. I HAVE SPENT 21 YEARS TRAINING IN JAPAN AND AM THE FOUNDER OF SEKAI-RYU JU-JUTSU.

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#109883 - 03/06/04 07:34 PM Re: traditional budo in LEO work
Doughnut Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 197
Loc: Mid-west, U.S.A
Call me the romantic in a pragmatic bunch but I think that Not only the conditoning and the tactics and the tequniques but the philosopy of traditional MA has alot to contrbute to the LEO.

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#109884 - 03/07/04 12:57 PM Re: traditional budo in LEO work
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
You old romantic, doughnut [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

You are, of course, also quite right.

Budo

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