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#109795 - 08/30/03 02:12 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Doughnut Offline

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 197
Loc: Mid-west, U.S.A
I am sorry everyone just having a little trouble just now. I would like to clarify that I have never Shot an offender That was used as an egsample and should have been in quotes.

#109796 - 10/20/03 01:38 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Woodford Offline

Registered: 10/20/03
Posts: 2
Loc: New Zealand
Reasonable force is totally reliant on the situation that the offender puts you in and in what situation the confrontation happens. You would have to take into account there may be innocent bystanders which could be caught up in a lenghty scuffle or weapons may be concealed by the offender. What it basically comes down to is this person a a danger to others in the area not just you. Assess, confront, isolate eliminate. Assess the situation confront the offender if need be isolate the offender by restraint or incapasitation. Remember some people can have serious medical conditions which may be triggered by pressure on the chest neck or back.
If weapons are being drawn lethal force would have to be considered.

#109797 - 03/01/04 02:01 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Karma Offline

Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 78
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia

I'm thinking of joining the Police (Australian) and was wondering if my Jujitsu skills (such that they are lol) would count for or against me?

I ask this because as everyone on this forum knows, better than I do, that Jujitsu is a multi form art and has various restraint and lock moves which although painful are easy to do and if administered propperly, leave no adverse affects aside from soreness and stiffness (like me after a training session)

So yeah, will this count against me or will they see it as an added advantage.

BTW on a personal note, police should be taught a good martial art as their self defence (Aikido or Judo would be good I think)

#109798 - 05/16/04 10:56 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
SheepDog Offline

Registered: 05/03/04
Posts: 6
Articulation is the key to use of force. You must be able to explain that the force used was the minimum amount needed to end the threat as it appeared to you at the time (not to include the information gathered after the fact). This means if you saw a the subject pointing the gun at you and you fired you weapon to "stop the treat", and later find out that it was a toy gun, you are justified because of the perceived threat was deadly to you and or others.An example..."The subject pointed the weapon at me and I drew my weapon and fired 3 rounds at the subject. The subject dropped the weapon and fell to the ground. I secured the weapon, Handcuffed the subject, called for medical aid, and secured the scene." The fact that you discovered the weapon wasn't real has NOTHING to do with you actions, if you had stopped to examine the weapon before acting you might have been shot by a real gun. Your actions will be judged by what is reasonable for an officer acting with the same information prior to the use of force.
Get a good lawyer, give no statements, and be prepared to be treated like a criminal.
Another note; if you practice striking arts, remember, they will take hundreds of pictures of the subject after you subdue him. The more black and blue, the more excessive the force will SEEM to the jury/judge.

#109799 - 05/16/04 11:15 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
SheepDog Offline

Registered: 05/03/04
Posts: 6
If you are not a LEO, and must use force to defend yourself, it is tougher. If there is ANY exit available for you from the situation and you did not take it, then your use of force will not appear justified. An example... You and your significant-other are at a bar, you have just ordered another round of drinks on your tab, when a person accosts and touches your sig-o. You "stand up to them" and they want to fight but do not touch you. They are not between you and the exit. You must make an attempt to leave to de-escalate the confrontation IF POSSIBLE. The person must present an IMMEDIATE threat to you or others. That threat must present an IMMEDIATE possibility of bodily harm (not to you car or property). You cannot kick someones ass for taking a stick to your car and say it was self-defense.
Your dad and your ego told you never to walk away from a fight, but the judge won't see it that way.
While it may be better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6, you might end up being carried by 6 after the 12 are through with you.
I know there are many who will not agree with this opinion... enjoy your steel bracelets.

#109800 - 05/17/04 03:22 PM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
the504mikey Offline

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States

I believe you are referencing the so called "duty to retreat" legal concept. As far as I know, not all states have "duty to retreat" legislation and some that do are considering rescinding it. Retreating poses certain risks... for example, if someone is going to attack you in a bar, there is help nearby-- but if you leave the bar (attempting to be a good citizen) and are then jumped in a dark alley outside, you are endangering yourself. Inasmuch as this happens from time to time, duty to retreat statutes are under continuous review. Everyone should be sure to check the laws in his individual state in order to make sure he stays as safe as the law will allow.


#109801 - 05/17/04 07:19 PM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
SheepDog Offline

Registered: 05/03/04
Posts: 6
Agreed 504. Make sure know the laws and win the fights.

#109802 - 05/26/04 07:12 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Celtic Dirk Offline

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2
Loc: Occupied East Tennessee, CSA
Gentlemen: The laws of the states varies. My state plainly says that if forceable entry into ones home is made and the criminal suffers DEATH, it is presumed to be justifiable homicide. Yeah, you will have to go before the grand jury and tell them you were afraid for your life but at least your are not dead, your wife not raped, and children not sodomizied. You have no duty to retreat. In the great State of Tennessee according to state law let us say I am dittybopping down the street carrying my S&W 29 and don't have a concealed carry permit. Out of the alley jumps Joe Sh-t the Rag Man with a six inch tanto and proceeds to rob me as in "Your money or Your life". I unload three rounds of 180 grain hollow points into his groin, belly and chest. NO PROBLEM! I won't even be charged with Carrying a Deadly Weapon for the Purpose of Going Armed. Not in this State if the shooting was justifiable. Littering, maybe.

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