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#109765 - 02/26/01 01:23 PM Reasonable Amount of Force
Brewer Offline
Member

Registered: 01/15/01
Posts: 468
Loc: Arizona,U.S.
Hello,
I asked this question of the Head instructor at a police Academy.If an individual was to attack a person and the individual being attacked,did every thing he could to avoid this situation,short of running away. And in the process of having to defend himself,broke his attackers leg.I asked him if this would be considered a resonable amount of force.He said that if the attacker got his leg broken,that it was his problem and that no court of law would see it any other way.I would like to know if anyone out there with knowledge of the law and self defense.Could help me out with any information regarding this type of situation.
Thank You
Your Brother in the Arts

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#109766 - 08/06/01 06:56 PM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
Unfortunately only the court could decide if the amount of force used was reasonable.
If you can honestly, in the cold light of day, justify your actions beyond "he/she/it shouldn't have messed with me" then you might be ok.
One must also remember that as a martial artist, your skill/ability would also come into question...afterall you are trained to inflict various forms of damage aren't you?
As a proffessional this is the very same problem I face. Not only have I been taught how to defend myself for my work, but I also train in Karate.
Sorry if the answer was so vague..
Budo

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#109767 - 08/07/01 07:25 PM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Bluescaster Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/07/01
Posts: 2
Loc: Tallahassee FL USA
As far as use of force in defending one's self, law enforcement personnel are likely going to fall under the standards put forth in the Graham and the Gardner US Supreme Court decisions.

Security personnel and others acting as private citizens are going to be bound by local laws such as 'retreat to the wall', etc.

The bottom line at this time is that no one is legally bound to accept a beating, but what you are allowed to do in order to avoid said beating is restricted.
As far as claiming after the fact that somone else's injuries were the result of self defense, just remember that there will be two sides to the story after the fact, and it would help a lot if your's was the most credible, not just a blanket claim.

paul

"Self defense is Nature's eldest law"
Dryden

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#109768 - 08/28/01 04:44 PM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Oldwolf Offline
Member

Registered: 08/27/01
Posts: 71
Loc: Scotland
Police officers are there to enforce the law not interpret it.
the scenario of justifiable force takes no account of the sudden escalation of violence and is an ass. ie the aggresor pushes you so you justifiably push him back, so he pulls a gun and shoots you, so you...bugger it too late.
What about the legitimate preemptive strike, when you felt under threat. Read it and weep I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six, on the other hand I'd rather avoid it completely.

[This message has been edited by Oldwolf (edited 08-28-2001).]

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#109769 - 07/25/02 02:26 PM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
NAUMatt Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 68
Loc: Flagstaff, AZ, USA
I have heard quite often that if you are at least 1st dan, you must register yourself with local law enforcement, just as you would any other deadly weapon (i.e., a pistol). That said, I believe your first course of action when it looks as though confrontation is inevitable is to say (hopefully loudly enough for witnesses to hear): "I do not want to fight you." Of course, this also must be displayed in your actions. From there, to retreat would be the best choice. Given no other options, f- him/them up; at least you've covered your bases, and if you have witnesses saying you actively tried to avoid confrontation, that goes a long way in a court of law when trying to assess guilt. Of course, as others said, it is up to the discretion of the courts, and if I know police officers, they may just shoot you on sight or beat you down anyway depending on the damage you did, but that's another story. I have a minor in criminal justice, and that is pretty much what I've learned of the issue.

Hope I helped, Peace and Love

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#109770 - 07/25/02 02:30 PM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
NAUMatt Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 68
Loc: Flagstaff, AZ, USA
In reviewing my post, I hope not to offend any officers on the boards. I know that many law enforcement officials take their job very seriously and are upstanding citizens, it is just unfortunate that none of my friends or I have had the good fortune to run into any of that sort (with one upstanding exception I can personally think of). My education basically reinforced my personal experiences as well, which adds to my bias. Again, though, I know a few do not represent the whole, and no insult was meant.

Peace and Love

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#109771 - 08/07/02 01:13 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Allen_S Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/07/02
Posts: 8
[QUOTE]Originally posted by NAUMatt:
I have heard quite often that if you are at least 1st dan, you must register yourself with local law enforcement, just as you would any other deadly weapon (i.e., a pistol).

This is something that keeps cropping up. Granted, different states have different rules, but I have yet to be shown in writing where a certified martial artist must register themselves. Way too many problems with the whole concept. (e.g., what constitutes a 'certified' black belt?) Does anyone have any first-hand knowledge of such a thing?

Allen

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#109772 - 08/07/02 02:32 PM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
NAUMatt Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 68
Loc: Flagstaff, AZ, USA
As with any state law, it will vary from state to state, and I'm sure it does not apply in all states. I'm not even sure if it does in my own. As I said, it's only heresay. As far as being a "certified" blackbelt, in many dojos I have seen one receives a certificate upon completion and passing of a rank-test in front of the masters of one's style. That would be "certified" in my book, but since when have lawmakers ever made sense anyway? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Peace and Love

(I have some spare time at work, I'll see if I can dig something up on it)

[This message has been edited by NAUMatt (edited 08-07-2002).]

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#109773 - 08/08/02 03:29 PM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
NAUMatt Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 68
Loc: Flagstaff, AZ, USA
Well, I've been digging around, and I didn't find much. I found this link: http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/statelaws/arizona.pdf that in section 7-E states that nunchaku are considered a deadly weapon (this is an AZ site, but I found a few others from other states). However, I also found this one: http://home.uchicago.edu/~amvernon/PvMalik.htm about a case where a guy said "oh, those are for fighting?" and got off for posession. Gotta love our legal system. No $h|t they're for fighting!

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#109774 - 08/08/02 07:54 PM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
I dont know about the US but in the UK you certainly dont have to register yourself with the authorities for attaining a 1st Dan.
The simple reason being i assume that it is
(a)pointless (b)impossible to regulate. This however is not the case in Japan where i believe anyone holding a "legitimate" (so i presume they mean Japanese recognised) 3rd Dan must register by law with the local police.

Regds

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#109775 - 02/12/03 09:06 PM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
From a law enforcement perspective, does the concept of disparity of force hold any water? IE, This guy is eight times my size, or "I'm just a small woman, and he's a big man." Or, I'm in a wheelchair, so ANY form of attack should be considered deadly force, etc etc.?

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#109776 - 02/13/03 01:01 PM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Certainly in the UK we take account of "impact factors" which include such things as relative size, state of mind (drink/drugs), previous knowledge etc.

It is considered a legitimate tactic to get in first only if you can show a number of these factors had a bearing on the situation. Incidentally, knowlewdge that someone trains in martial arts is also considered justification for using increased force to retrain them.

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#109777 - 03/10/03 01:45 PM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
From reading these posts... and my own experiences, it seems to me budo training has done more to lower our "fitness for survial" in the modern society than to help us survive. It has gotten to a point when people ask me for advices about starting to train budo - which I love whole heartedly and want to share it with as many people as I can - I hesistate to recommand it.

Kind of depressing, don't you think?

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#109778 - 03/10/03 04:31 PM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
I don't know if budo training has made us any worse off, raccoon. The problem as I see it is that the law severely curtails your options and limits your right to use it, and probably rightly so.

If we look to budo as merely a way to learn to fight then yes, it's value for lawfull use in society is certainly questionable, but don't we get so much more from training than the ability to kick butt?

Budo

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#109779 - 03/10/03 06:57 PM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Thank you Cato, I have forgotten there is more to budo training than just self-defense.

It's just that I have been in situations where I know I would have fought back if I weren't trained. Little things like pushing back, any untrained person can (and probably will) do that. But then I was assuming fighting back would be better than to just walk away.

-raccoon

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#109780 - 03/11/03 10:12 PM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Raccoon, one of the paradoxes of MA is that, by learning about violence, we are actually more able and INCLINED to avoid it. When you know EXACTLY how bad it can get, don't you want to keep it from getting that bad?
Once you have accepted the inevitability of your own personal death, you tend to put it off as much as possible.

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#109781 - 03/12/03 01:56 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
raccoon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 848
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Jamoni, I agree.

Violence is one of those taboos that we (as civilized beings) like to deny. We like to think it's not part of us, it's not part of our society, it will never happen to ME, but it's real, it's there, and it happens to everyone. And because it's so taboo, we don't face it. When it hits, we don't know how to deal with it.

By engaging yourself in training, little by little, you learn how to handle yourself under violence. It's no longer something you try to supress, or deny. You accept it as a fact of life, you deal with it.

And yes, I am forced to hit innocent looking beginners enough that I will avoid hurting anyone if I can help it at all. Despite what I said in the previous post in this thread - I am glad I didn't fight back.

I really like your choice of words - "learning about violence" - we don't learn to BE violent, we learn about violence. We face it, learn to deal with it etc.

If you look at it that way... it's not really a paradox, eh?

-raccoon

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#109782 - 03/12/03 07:40 PM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Its a paradox if seen from outside of MA community. People think "You train in martial arts? thats violent. Therefore, you are violent." I look at it more as the art of conflict resolution, working from a worst case scenario (fighting) backwards. Only problem is, MA usually STOPS at the worst case, and never teaches you how to deal with grey areas. After years of training in MA, of being in the army, of being an EMT, and some other stuff, I found that I was perfectly able to deal with any emergency or horrible situation, but that I had no idea what to do WHEN THINGS WENT RIGHT. I had no skills for dealing with success! I actually found myself sabotagin my own life, because I was more comfortable when things went wrong, as I knew what to do! This applies to MA, because we often turn a small disagreement into a conflict, BECAUSE WE ARE MORE CAPABLE IN THAT ARENA.

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#109783 - 05/06/03 09:30 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Kotetsu Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 314
Loc: Hollis, NH, USA
My knowledge of self-defense is that there has to be no other option than using force. And, at least for police, only an equal amount of force can be used(deadly force met with the same, etc.) For example there was one case with a wife beater. He and his wife had gotten into an argument and he had hit she had pushed him. He got angry and tried to hit her again. She ran into a closet and locked the door. There was a gun in this closet which she grabbed hoping to scare him away. He hit the door a few times then stopped. After a second or two she oppened the door and saw him going into their bedroom. There was another gun in the bedroom. She shot through the bedroom door three times and hit him twice. He died and she pleaded self defense. She was deemed not guilty as she had sufficient reason to fear that deadly force was going to be used against her.

Sorry about the long story, but the moral of it is, if you fear a certain amount of force is going to be used against you, you can reply with an equal amount.

By the way I am in a practical law class, so I'm pretty sure that is what it is. We haven't gone over self-defense to much yet as we haven't gotten that far but it has come up once or twice.

Oh yeah, and this is in the US. I don't know about anywhere else.

[This message has been edited by Kotetsu (edited 05-06-2003).]

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#109784 - 05/10/03 09:28 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Jamoni Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 1514
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Incidentally, what's wrong with people? I'll never understand why you wouldn't abandon an obviously unworkable relationship LONG before it came to gunplay!

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#109785 - 05/19/03 01:51 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
kman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/03
Posts: 368
Loc: minnesota
To adress the original question. In order to legally use force in self defense the assailant must have the intent,the means and the oppurtunity to do you PHYSICAL harm. Then your response must me timely and proportional. You can only use enough force to cause him to cease his hostile actions. Break his leg in response to a punch in the face and you might face an assault charge as well as civil liability. If you keep fighting after he has ceased hostilities then you've become the criminal agressor. If you end up in court due to this the requirement is that the court apply whats known as "the reasonable man doctrine" what would a reasonable person have done in your place. And remember,,they'll have the luxury of all the time inthe world in a safe environment to second guess you. The best strategy is avoidance.

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#109786 - 06/21/03 06:56 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
It all boils down on how you answer the question. How did your assailant's leg get broken? Under most penal laws you are only allowed to use necessary force to prevent or terminate specific conduct. The force must be reasonable. Breaking the leg of the person that you are arresting may fall under deadly physical use of force. If you said that you put him in a leg lock and his leg snapped...you are in trouble, that is not reasonable force in most cases. But if he fell down in the course of being apprehended, it is a whole different issue.
I am not impressed with your academy instructors answer. I am still amazed with the 1950 style of self defence training that they still teach. Look into your penal law books for guidance. Remember it is very important that your report is writen well. Learn jujutsu from a good instructor. www.lonewolfjujutsu.com

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#109787 - 06/24/03 10:38 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Ed, I think the important point in the original statement was that the attackers leg was broken whilst the victim was in the process of defending himself.

In the Uk that would usually pass as reasonable force so long as it could be shown that the defender tried all reasonable means to avoid the fight and never went beyond self defence. A leg lock would almost certainly be seen as a reasonable option for a police officer effecting an arrest, as it implies at the very least that the attacker was the author of their own misfortune and continued to fight after being placed into some kind of restraint.

If the defender was a trained martial artist it might certainly complicate the issue for them, but the onus would still be on the prosecution to prove the amount of force used was unreasonable.

Budo

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#109788 - 06/25/03 12:19 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
The law is a little different in the states. Law suits are a dime a dozen. As a cop taking a report ,with out seeing the actual fight, will probably be filed as mutual combat. But if the other person was maimed, a broken leg is maimed under NY Penal Law, you may find yourself in trouble. Especialy if you do not look too messed up. Your right most P.O. will not file charges if you are truly defending yourself. But the best policy is to have witnesses to come to your defense. Ed

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#109789 - 06/25/03 06:00 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Cato Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 1636
Absolutely right. A witness for the defence is priceless, especially an independant one. Throughout my training it was always emphasised that witness perception is everything. The acid test was always "how would (this technique) look to a little old lady who just came round the corner and didn't see the offender spit in your face or punch you fillings out". I think that is a good yard stick to keep in mind.

Budo

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#109790 - 06/26/03 04:54 PM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
Absolutely right. A witness for the defence is priceless, especially an independant one. Throughout my training it was always emphasised that witness perception is everything. The acid test was always "how would (this technique) look to a little old lady who just came round the corner and didn't see the offender spit in your face or punch you fillings out". I think that is a good yard stick to keep in mind.

Budo
[/QUOTE]

Excellent post Cato.

This with what you said on another thread about what we would use as self defence, others would regard as assualt, sum it up nicely.

Budo.

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#109791 - 06/27/03 02:35 PM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
mark Offline
sword of magnamity

Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 1284
Loc: uk
Yep Cato, once again you are spot on.

Did you do the scenario where 2 guys face each other, the class close their eyes, and one faces the other with his fists clenches and held high…calls eyes open…..”who is the aggressor?” always the guy with the fists…
Then the same is done with the same man holding his hands in the same “guard” but hands open palms out…..very different storey.

It is about time our police and other security hand small , cameras and audio pick up , in their uniform, FFS it is easy technology…..i would rather have had that when I served in the police than a damn gun………


Mark

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#109792 - 08/30/03 12:56 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Doughnut Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 197
Loc: Mid-west, U.S.A
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kotetsu:
My knowledge of self-defense is that there has to be no other option than using force. And, at least for police, only an equal amount of force can be used(deadly force met with the same, etc.)

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#109793 - 08/30/03 01:15 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Doughnut Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 197
Loc: Mid-west, U.S.A
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doughnut:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kotetsu:
My knowledge of self-defense is that there has to be no other option than using force. And, at least for police, only an equal amount of force can be used(deadly force met with the same, etc.)[/QUOTE]

As far as I know in every U.S Jurisdiction The use of force standerd for the authorities is one level above that of the suspect. The level is determined by the "use of force continuum" adapted by the agency or, set in law by the state.
The standerd in the correctional agency I work for is differaint in that it "the least amount of force neccicary"(to deal with the sittuation presumably) which can both be a much laxer standered I.E I had to shoot that guy because he was A Maximum offender about to escape, or a much harsher standered " did you realy have slam that 245lb 6' violently out of control offender to the ground? She is a woman after all."
For the civillian the standerd in my state is a resonable amount of force for the sittuation. Things such as fear for ones life are taken into account. However one has no protection if they are interceading on behafe of another, unless that person is in grave danger.
The further you get away from a "force continuam" the more sloppy, and haphazerdly the law becomes. In all of these instances be prepared for a Lawsuit... even if you kill the bugger.

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#109794 - 08/30/03 02:09 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Doughnut Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 197
Loc: Mid-west, U.S.A
...

[This message has been edited by Doughnut (edited 08-30-2003).]

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#109795 - 08/30/03 02:12 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Doughnut Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 197
Loc: Mid-west, U.S.A
I am sorry everyone just having a little trouble just now. I would like to clarify that I have never Shot an offender That was used as an egsample and should have been in quotes.

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#109796 - 10/20/03 01:38 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Woodford Offline
Stranger

Registered: 10/20/03
Posts: 2
Loc: New Zealand
Reasonable force is totally reliant on the situation that the offender puts you in and in what situation the confrontation happens. You would have to take into account there may be innocent bystanders which could be caught up in a lenghty scuffle or weapons may be concealed by the offender. What it basically comes down to is this person a a danger to others in the area not just you. Assess, confront, isolate eliminate. Assess the situation confront the offender if need be isolate the offender by restraint or incapasitation. Remember some people can have serious medical conditions which may be triggered by pressure on the chest neck or back.
If weapons are being drawn lethal force would have to be considered.

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#109797 - 03/01/04 02:01 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Karma Offline
Member

Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 78
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Hi

I'm thinking of joining the Police (Australian) and was wondering if my Jujitsu skills (such that they are lol) would count for or against me?

I ask this because as everyone on this forum knows, better than I do, that Jujitsu is a multi form art and has various restraint and lock moves which although painful are easy to do and if administered propperly, leave no adverse affects aside from soreness and stiffness (like me after a training session)

So yeah, will this count against me or will they see it as an added advantage.

BTW on a personal note, police should be taught a good martial art as their self defence (Aikido or Judo would be good I think)

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#109798 - 05/16/04 10:56 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
SheepDog Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/03/04
Posts: 6
Articulation is the key to use of force. You must be able to explain that the force used was the minimum amount needed to end the threat as it appeared to you at the time (not to include the information gathered after the fact). This means if you saw a the subject pointing the gun at you and you fired you weapon to "stop the treat", and later find out that it was a toy gun, you are justified because of the perceived threat was deadly to you and or others.An example..."The subject pointed the weapon at me and I drew my weapon and fired 3 rounds at the subject. The subject dropped the weapon and fell to the ground. I secured the weapon, Handcuffed the subject, called for medical aid, and secured the scene." The fact that you discovered the weapon wasn't real has NOTHING to do with you actions, if you had stopped to examine the weapon before acting you might have been shot by a real gun. Your actions will be judged by what is reasonable for an officer acting with the same information prior to the use of force.
Get a good lawyer, give no statements, and be prepared to be treated like a criminal.
Another note; if you practice striking arts, remember, they will take hundreds of pictures of the subject after you subdue him. The more black and blue, the more excessive the force will SEEM to the jury/judge.
Enjoy!

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#109799 - 05/16/04 11:15 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
SheepDog Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/03/04
Posts: 6
If you are not a LEO, and must use force to defend yourself, it is tougher. If there is ANY exit available for you from the situation and you did not take it, then your use of force will not appear justified. An example... You and your significant-other are at a bar, you have just ordered another round of drinks on your tab, when a person accosts and touches your sig-o. You "stand up to them" and they want to fight but do not touch you. They are not between you and the exit. You must make an attempt to leave to de-escalate the confrontation IF POSSIBLE. The person must present an IMMEDIATE threat to you or others. That threat must present an IMMEDIATE possibility of bodily harm (not to you car or property). You cannot kick someones ass for taking a stick to your car and say it was self-defense.
Your dad and your ego told you never to walk away from a fight, but the judge won't see it that way.
While it may be better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6, you might end up being carried by 6 after the 12 are through with you.
I know there are many who will not agree with this opinion... enjoy your steel bracelets.

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#109800 - 05/17/04 03:22 PM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
SheepDog,

I believe you are referencing the so called "duty to retreat" legal concept. As far as I know, not all states have "duty to retreat" legislation and some that do are considering rescinding it. Retreating poses certain risks... for example, if someone is going to attack you in a bar, there is help nearby-- but if you leave the bar (attempting to be a good citizen) and are then jumped in a dark alley outside, you are endangering yourself. Inasmuch as this happens from time to time, duty to retreat statutes are under continuous review. Everyone should be sure to check the laws in his individual state in order to make sure he stays as safe as the law will allow.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#109801 - 05/17/04 07:19 PM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
SheepDog Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/03/04
Posts: 6
Agreed 504. Make sure know the laws and win the fights.

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#109802 - 05/26/04 07:12 AM Re: Reasonable Amount of Force
Celtic Dirk Offline
Stranger

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2
Loc: Occupied East Tennessee, CSA
Gentlemen: The laws of the states varies. My state plainly says that if forceable entry into ones home is made and the criminal suffers DEATH, it is presumed to be justifiable homicide. Yeah, you will have to go before the grand jury and tell them you were afraid for your life but at least your are not dead, your wife not raped, and children not sodomizied. You have no duty to retreat. In the great State of Tennessee according to state law let us say I am dittybopping down the street carrying my S&W 29 and don't have a concealed carry permit. Out of the alley jumps Joe Sh-t the Rag Man with a six inch tanto and proceeds to rob me as in "Your money or Your life". I unload three rounds of 180 grain hollow points into his groin, belly and chest. NO PROBLEM! I won't even be charged with Carrying a Deadly Weapon for the Purpose of Going Armed. Not in this State if the shooting was justifiable. Littering, maybe.

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